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You are ignoring the strength of the Sorceror.
And you're ignoring the strength of the Wizard.
The wizard, if he doesn't have the right spell for a situation, can't spend the energy it represents.
Same applies to the Sorc
And going around with no spells in half your spell slots means you're hamstringing your own combat capability if something spontaneous does happen...
I can't imagine a scenario where one would need HALF their spell slots open. But, if one wishes, they can eliminate the worry of unused open spell slots with preferred spell.
Saying someone is going to make bad spell choices as a Sorc and then not forgiven for not knowing the game is like saying the same thing is going to happen to a Wizard and he's not going to be given some room for error. And once you've got the experience, you don't make the same mistake.
I think you missed the point that if it happens, the sorc is stuck with the mistake longer than the wizard is.
And Gecko, any wizard can accrue a massive spell book. There's nothing stopping them from doing so. Happily, I don't give a fig about your spell book in the comparisons. I care about spells accessible Right Now.
With arcane bond, it's all of them.. so the book does matter. And, as far as your Right Now analogy. Both classes can have the Right spells Right Now, but only one can fix it if they don't.
And if you choose to gimp yourself by barring two entire schools of magic, that's hitting your versatility as a wizard. You might as well call yourself a Thassilonian spec and win all the power fights...except the sorceror isn't so restricted, and can take the best spells in the schools you've let slide.
So, apples to apples comparisons. You want to claim maximum versatility for the wizard, you back the game and memorize barred spells...which makes you no better then a general caster.
I think you may be the first person on these forum's to claim you are gimping yourself by specializing. Is specializing "hitting" your versatility.. Yes, in the most minuscule way. But in the interest of YOUR comparison, where spell slots plays the biggest part of the equation, a specialist needs to be considered. The flexibility of specialist is still larger than that of the sorc, as they will still have more spells known in their book, even if they never learn one from an opposition school. Besides its entirely possible that a Sorc may go their whole career without ever learning a single spell from a particular school.
Point being, if you're going to make a comparison, show both classes in their best scenario's rather than showing one at their peak scenario and the other at their absolute worst, otherwise this is absolutely NOT an apples to apples comparison.
Having saved more a few parties with Use Magic Device lets just agree you can get 'consumables' in an adventure too. In fact that's how I usually acquire them. I can't recall ever having wasted a feat so that I can create one (but that's just my attitude to crafting I accept). Either way, that said - I'd likre to see a wizard 'hot wire' a healing item in an emergency.
I would almost never take Craft Wand, but Scribe Scroll comes with the Wizard.
It is assumed that 10% of your WBL is given to you in consumable form. (Or something like that IIRC)
So, I know from playing with my group and the GM that I won't get a lot of information to prepare with. I also know my party won't want to wait for me to use CV or Divination or whatever. UMD seems like a good thing so let's roll with it.
(Just the basic outline of a character)
Half-Elf Wizard
11/12/12/18/8/12
-Traits:
Dangerously Curious (UMD as class skill)
-Feats:
Magical Aptitude (Heading to Pathfinder Savant), Skill Focus (UMD)
Backstory is that of a light-hearted, outgoing, intelligent mage who seeks to understand the lost wonders of the ancient world and bring them to life. Sin Specialist/Primaist as an homage to a more ancient form of magic. plan is to take Opposition Research to leave only Necromancy barred which my character has a strong dislike of after encountering an unnaturally blighted region of his home forest.
At level 1 1(rank)+3(class skill)+2(feat)+1(cha mod)+3(Skill Focus)+1 (trait)
=d20+11
55:45 for a wand. (Level 9 = 100/0)
50:50 for a CL1 Scroll. Highest level scroll I can cast = CL 11(05:95)
Conversely, a Sorcerer with 18 cha and 12 int:
At level 1 1(rank)+3(class skill)+2(feat)+4(cha mod)+3(Skill Focus)+1 (trait)
=d20+14
70:30 for a wand. (Level 6 = 100:0)
65:35 for a CL1 Scroll. Highest level scroll I can cast = CL14(05:95)
Although consumable healing is overpriced junk anyway, so I don't know why you'd bother, with the exception of things like removing conditions, negative levels, ability drain, etc. Otherwise it just eats your money.
I was not implying that. In fact, that is exactly what I said happened. My wizard was picking the same spells as a sorcerer would have picked because they tend to be useful. But I only had one of each. If I needed it again, too bad. And if one of those spells was not actually useful in any capacity today, then the memorized spell was wasted.
It seemed like the only way I was going to be even slightly functional was to take at least 2 or more spell mastery, fast study, etc... In other words I had almost no build choice because I was trying to make him as sorcerer like as possible and not doing a very good job of it.
My comment wasn't directed at you. I was responding to DrGecko.
However, Spell Mastery is not something I would suggest to make yourself more spontaneous. Preferred Spell, maybe. Shadow conjuration/evocation, maybe. Dip Crossblooded Sorcerer, throw evocations, maybe.
Or, take spells that are useful to your party and some BFC. Haste, Fly, animal spells, Protection Against <alignment>, etc.
The sorc will have a spell that's usable in one form or another, and he can spend the energy on THAT spell. The wizard may have already spent his, and can't realign the slot. He has to go to outside resources...Spell SPec and Preferred Spell double feat layout, for example, so he can sack his spell for...something else that may also not be useful.
Arcane Bond is 1/day, hardly a reliable basis for multiple encounters. Sure helps at times, however. It's basically an open slot with instant memorization, vs one minute if a wiz spends on Fast Study.
And I didn't miss the point. It isn't a mistake for the sorc, it's a temporary lack of use of one spell and focus on others. If it's a function of bad spell choice for a CAMPAIGN duration...then that's the same problem a ranger has with Favored Enemy, and should be getting advised by the DM not to make such choices.
Seriously, if you're going to be fighting fire creatures, why would you ever pick Scorching Ray/Fireball/Wall of Fire when there are so many better choices? Unless you've got a bloodline where you can change them to another damage type or something.
As for half their spell slots open...guess what? It's used as a typical example on the boards here so often it makes me roll my eyes.
==Aelryinth
However, Spell Mastery is not something I would suggest to make yourself more spontaneous. Preferred Spell, maybe. Shadow conjuration/evocation, maybe. Dip Crossblooded Sorcerer, throw evocations, maybe...
Doh! Yes, preferred spell is what I meant. I don't know why I put spell mastery.
... Or, take spells that are useful to your party and some BFC. Haste, Fly, animal spells, Protection Against <alignment>, etc.
Yes, most of those were on my daily list every single day.
Sample wizard #1
Sample wizard #2
Sample sorcerer #1
Sample sorcerer #2
They all look fairly comparable to me.
... Or, take spells that are useful to your party and some BFC. Haste, Fly, animal spells, Protection Against <alignment>, etc.Yes, most of those were on my daily list every single day.
So what kind of spells did you build to bring? :S
I assume it wasn't buff or SM since you said you took those but didn't know what to bring.
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You are ignoring the strength of the Sorceror. Ashiel is particularly egregrious, mentioning use Scorching Ray and traipsing off to the Plane of fire.
the Sorceror will still have multiple other spells to use. Sure, that one level 2 spell known might not see much use. But he has other options, and if only one of those options is viable, guess what? He can spam that one option over and over again, and use all of his spells slots for it. maybe he has to keep using Acid Arrow, Summon II, Invisibility or Stinking cloud. Guess what? He still can.
The wizard, if he doesn't have the right spell for a situation, can't spend the energy it represents. It's just stuck there and dead. Clerics at least can swap for healing spells. Druids can swap for summons. Wizards? Need outside investments. And while getting free minutes to pop in a spell before a fight sounds really great, only in the most set peice encounters with prior knowledge does it actually get to happen. In the rest, he's SoL.
And going around with no spells in half your spell slots means you're hamstringing your own combat capability if something spontaneous does happen. That's not a good situation to be in, either. The sorc never has that problem. If he has a spell slot left, he's got access to all his spells known for that level. A wizard will just one spell in memory.
Saying someone is going to make bad spell choices as a Sorc and then not forgiven for not knowing the game is like saying the same thing is going to happen to a Wizard and he's not going to be given some room for error. And once you've got the experience, you don't make the same mistake.
I will agree that Wizards have a crafting advantage...but it's not huge. The DC's are low, you add +5 for not having the right spell, yes? And you go from there.
I will also note that Arcane Bond is far more useful for a wizard, since it can access any spell in his book. For sorcs, it's just a spell slot more.
And Gecko, any wizard can accrue a massive spell book. There's nothing stopping...
If and I mean "if" you are in a situation where your spells known are going to be useful then a sorcerer is great but if not then he can be really screwed. Also, unless they purchase scrolls and wands, a sorcerer doesn't take a lot of utility type spells because their use may not come up as often as combat spells.
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The sorc will have a spell that's usable in one form or another, and he can spend the energy on THAT spell. The wizard may have already spent his, and can't realign the slot. He has to go to outside resources...Spell SPec and Preferred Spell double feat layout, for example, so he can sack his spell for...something else that may also not be useful.
Arcane Bond is 1/day, hardly a reliable basis for multiple encounters. Sure helps at times, however. It's basically an open slot with instant memorization, vs one minute if a wiz spends on Fast Study.
And I didn't miss the point. It isn't a mistake for the sorc, it's a temporary lack of use of one spell and focus on others. If it's a function of bad spell choice for a CAMPAIGN duration...then that's the same problem a ranger has with Favored Enemy, and should be getting advised by the DM not to make such choices.
Seriously, if you're going to be fighting fire creatures, why would you ever pick Scorching Ray/Fireball/Wall of Fire when there are so many better choices? Unless you've got a bloodline where you can change them to another damage type or something.
As for half their spell slots open...guess what? It's used as a typical example on the boards here so often it makes me roll my eyes.
==Aelryinth
Another downside of the sorcerer is that you are at the mercy of the DM. If your only third level spell is fireball and you are up against fire creatures then I hope you got some good 1st or 2nd level spells handy. Also, your spell selection is going to have to be particular because you are going to want spells with multiple uses.
...
So what kind of spells did you build to bring? :SI assume it wasn't buff or SM since you said you took those but didn't know what to bring.
I'm trying to remember but that was close to a year ago (our campaigns are very slow moving). He was a foresight diviner that also had spell focus necromancy (which wasn't helping much).
sum mon III
haste
pro from evil x2 (2 guys had horrible will saves)
create treasure map
false life
vanish
dispel magic
detect thoughts
detect undead
blindness
detect secret doors
magic missile
enlarge person
bestow curse
scrying (even though we were rarely given much info, it was something)
see invisibility
I think that is most of my standard load, but I don't really remember for sure.
The sorc will have a spell that's usable in one form or another, and he can spend the energy on THAT spell. The wizard may have already spent his, and can't realign the slot. He has to go to outside resources...Spell SPec and Preferred Spell double feat layout, for example, so he can sack his spell for...something else that may also not be useful.
You act as if it's a guarantee the sorc will always have a useful spell and the wizard will not, or will have spent it already. Major assumptions that I don't buy. To use a term you used earlier, this kind of Shrodinger's Sorc/Wiz scenario is purely theoretical. A wizard can scribe his own scrolls increasing his chances of having the right spell on hand.
Arcane Bond is 1/day, hardly a reliable basis for multiple encounters. Sure helps at times, however. It's basically an open slot with instant memorization, vs one minute if a wiz spends on Fast Study.
True, but in an argument about flexibility, the ability to cast any spell in your book is a major boon. Sometimes, all you need is one.
And I didn't miss the point. It isn't a mistake for the sorc, it's a temporary lack of use of one spell and focus on others. If it's a function of bad spell choice for a CAMPAIGN duration...then that's the same problem a ranger has with Favored Enemy, and should be getting advised by the DM not to make such choices.
Again, the point is, a bad spell is detrimental to the Sorc because he's stuck with it til he can swap it out, which may be many gaming sessions. However you want to focus the blame of it (inexperience, bad GM), the point is they WILL have to live with the bad choice longer than the wizard.
As for half their spell slots open...guess what? It's used as a typical example on the boards here so often it makes me roll my eyes.
I admit I don't read every thread on the board. Don't have the time, but half your spell slots open would be a terrible idea unless most of your feats happen to be preferred spell. But then, you might as well have been a sorc to begin with. I'd recommend no more than a quarter of them be open, from mostly the lower utility slots 2-4. Personally I only keep one from 1 and one from 2 open for utility at the moment (will expand to more as I level).
Honestly, you can like the sorc more than the wizard if you want, its not as if you're making a bad choice or having bad fun. The main reason I started arguing with you stemmed from your blatant misuse of the terms Spells Known over Spells per Day. The Ring of Wizardry confusion only exacerbated the issue.
The sorc will have a useful spell because he always has his full spells known to choose from. Something will be useful, if not perfect.
The wizard spends his spells, and loses his versatility as he does so.
Drawing up scrolls is use of outside resources. In such instances, it's quite easy to say the sorc uses scrolls, too, and doesn't need a spellbook to fall back on. So, no net gain for the wizard. There's also that whole time to prepare thing, and having the right spells available...more money leaving.
The wizard can be stuck with poor spell choices if he doesn't have access to somewhere he can buy new spells, too. Remember, he only gets 2 free per level. It's not as slow as the sorc...but the sorc can still spend all his spell slots on other stuff, or take a conversion skill.
==Aelryinth
The original post spoke of oracles being more powerful than clerics or druids...
Say what you will of wizards vs sorcs. Wizards still have to spend wealth on learning allot of spells and sorcs are either somewhat limited in spell selection or they are burning their favored class bonus every level.
Druids and clerics know every spell on their list that they can cast. Beyond that every spell they know is also a summon monster spell for druids or a not as exciting heal spell for clerics. That's still 2 spells for the price of 1. A druid or cleric with the proper feat selection can challenge a summoner at summoning, either class can have an animal companion, and then you can eiher have channel or the ability to change forms.
While oracles are crazy cool at specific tasks, clerics and druids are uin the very least as powerful if not more so and more versitile.
The sorc will have a useful spell because he always has his full spells known to choose from. Something will be useful, if not perfect.
The wizard spends his spells, and loses his versatility as he does so.
Again, you are assuming something that just may not be true. You assume a sorc will have a spell that's useful when his list of options is so small. This is brutal at lower levels when the list is even smaller still.
Drawing up scrolls is use of outside resources. In such instances, it's quite easy to say the sorc uses scrolls, too, and doesn't need a spellbook to fall back on. So, no net gain for the wizard. There's also that whole time to prepare thing, and having the right spells available...more money leaving.
And
The wizard can be stuck with poor spell choices if he doesn't have access to somewhere he can buy new spells, too. Remember, he only gets 2 free per level. It's not as slow as the sorc...but the sorc can still spend all his spell slots on other stuff, or take a conversion skill.
Now you're making arguments out of both sides of your mouth. In the first bloc you say 'the sorc uses scrolls too' with the assumption he'll be able to buy them, while talking bad about the wizard saying 'if he doesn't have access to somewhere you can buy new spells'
You can't have it both ways. Either you have a place to buy something or you don't. As far as the game goes, it assumes that you will have access to stores at some point, and theirs rules to what items they will have available based on town size, so both classes will be able to purchase what they need.
But, since Scribe Scroll is a class feature, it stands to reason it was designed for a wizard to use it to augment his casting ability. Since he doesn't need a store to make them... and is not at the mercy GM or town size rules for magic item purchases... and can make them in the field... I certainly would consider it vital part of the equation. So, when you said drawing up scrolls is use of outside resources, I say no, it's an intelligent use of a class feature.
You are ignoring the strength of the Sorceror. Ashiel is particularly egregrious, mentioning use Scorching Ray and traipsing off to the Plane of fire.
the Sorceror will still have multiple other spells to use. Sure, that one level 2 spell known might not see much use. But he has other options, and if only one of those options is viable, guess what? He can spam that one option over and over again, and use all of his spells slots for it. maybe he has to keep using Acid Arrow, Summon II, Invisibility or Stinking cloud. Guess what? He still can.
The wizard, if he doesn't have the right spell for a situation, can't spend the energy it represents. It's just stuck there and dead. Clerics at least can swap for healing spells. Druids can swap for summons. Wizards? Need outside investments. And while getting free minutes to pop in a spell before a fight sounds really great, only in the most set peice encounters with prior knowledge does it actually get to happen. In the rest, he's SoL.
Except that the wizard ALSO has his other 2nd level spells. See, if the wizard is still walking around with a variety of spells, so having nothing to do in an encounter is quite unlikely. Yet if you have to go into a volcano full of fire elementals, magmin, and a group of rogue azers you can just prepare something different.
In your example, your sorcerer uses "acid arrow" instead. Well by 6th level that means the only spells your sorcerer has at all in his 2nd level arsenal is acid arrow and scorching ray. Unless he's a human with a special racial option, that's pretty much it. So while the sorcerer can fall back to acid arrow if confronted with an adventure heavy on elemental creatures, the wizard simply doesn't have that problem. But why?
Because the wizard can just swap scorching ray for bull's strength or resist energy. That's also assuming he didn't take Craft Wand and make a weapon he can fall back on against most enemies (a wand of magic missile at 9th caster level would cost 3,375 gp to craft which isn't overly expensive for a weapon at 6th level).
Again I say unto you, the sorcerer simply cannot change his spells and thus the wizard wins. The sorcerer relies on his spells being relevant by chance, and those who do not rely on chance are those that choose spells based on the metagame, avoiding spells that have less longevity, avoiding spells that don't work on as many targets, avoiding spells easily resisted, looking for spells that can be used in as many different ways as possible.
So the sorcerer is fine "if" the sorcerer took acid arrow along with scorching ray. He's just stuck dealing 2d4 acid damage with a ranged attack for the adventure. The wizard decides they're going into a volcano and instead preps resist energy and something else, and swaps fireball for lightning bolt or haste.
If he then is surprised because he happens to encounter a half-black blue dragon (immune to acid and lightning and doesn't breath fire) inside the volcano (and yes, I'm aware how weird that sounds), the wizard can pull one of his crafted items with magic missile or something. Or flee and try again with different spells.
Sorcerers simply can't.
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If he then is surprised because he happens to encounter a half-black blue dragon (immune to acid and lightning and doesn't breath fire) inside the volcano (and yes, I'm aware how weird that sounds), the wizard can pull one of his crafted items with magic missile or something. Or flee and try again with different spells.
Sorcerers simply can't.
This is why a properly built Sorcerer chooses spells that work for most situations. When building a sorcerer, every 1st spell-known for a level is one you'll USE. For example, spells like Haste, Grease and Minor Image have near universal versatility. Even in the high levels, grease can make terrain rough terrain or buff against grapplers, and haste gives the entire party an undeniable edge in combat and movement. Minor image still can cause many high level enemies to misuse time and resources if used strategically.
Any claim that a sorcerer is "stuck" is, I find, directed only at those who make poor choices. The problem is, a player who makes poor spell choices isn't particularly good at playing ANY kind of caster.
I've actually found that to play a wizard well you need to *know* your spells, know *alot* of them, and know them well. A sorcerer's player need only master a handful of spells. So while the wizard class is more forgiving to bad choices for the day, the sorcerer has a more forgiving learning curve.
If he then is surprised because he happens to encounter a half-black blue dragon (immune to acid and lightning and doesn't breath fire) inside the volcano (and yes, I'm aware how weird that sounds), the wizard can pull one of his crafted items with magic missile or something. Or flee and try again with different spells.
Sorcerers simply can't.
This is why a properly built Sorcerer chooses spells that work for most situations. When building a sorcerer, every 1st spell-known for a level is one you'll USE. For example, spells like Haste, Grease and Minor Image have near universal versatility. Even in the high levels, grease can make terrain rough terrain or buff against grapplers, and haste gives the entire party an undeniable edge in combat and movement. Minor image still can cause many high level enemies to misuse time and resources if used strategically.
Any claim that a sorcerer is "stuck" is, I find, directed only at those who make poor choices. The problem is, a player who makes poor spell choices isn't particularly good at playing ANY kind of caster.
I've actually found that to play a wizard well you need to *know* your spells, know *alot* of them, and know them well. A sorcerer's player need only master a handful of spells. So while the wizard class is more forgiving to bad choices for the day, the sorcerer has a more forgiving learning curve.
Psst...quick, before anyone notices.
The sorcerer relies on his spells being relevant by chance, and those who do not rely on chance are those that choose spells based on the metagame, avoiding spells that have less longevity, avoiding spells that don't work on as many targets, avoiding spells easily resisted, looking for spells that can be used in as many different ways as possible.
I don't get it. The witch teleports out with a guy and a corpse, then the summoner teleports out, and soon he wants to teleport back, why couldn't the summoner teleport the witch, one guy and a corpse with his 2nd teleport? How does dismissing Eidolon bring the party together?A recent adventure in my home game illustrated one advantage of a spontaneous caster.
The party witch, not really planning on teleporting at all one day but wanting an emergency escape if needed, prepared Teleport once. The party summoner also had that spell as a known spell, and his level and charisma let him cast it or another 4th level spell twice per day if he wanted to. We got into an encounter that for a moment looked like it would be a TPK. On his turn, the witch teleported out, taking one party member and one corpse with him (none of the rest touched him when he asked them to). Soon thereafter the encounter was resolved, and the summoner teleported out as well to look for him. Upon finding him, the summoner asked if he could teleport back on his own. The witch couldn't, but the summoner only had to dismiss his eidolon to bring the witch and the other player character back to the rest of the party.
Sometimes flexibility can be a powerful thing.
I left out the step of casting Teleport a 2nd time after dismissing the eidolon. I had to dismiss the eidolon because it was size Large and thus counted as 2 people that I caould bring along. On the outbound trip I was taking nobody else, so I had no reason to dismiss the eidolon. On the return trip, I was limited to bringing along 3 people (10th level caster), so with the eidolon counting as 2 I would not have been able to bring everyone back.
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If he then is surprised because he happens to encounter a half-black blue dragon (immune to acid and lightning and doesn't breath fire) inside the volcano (and yes, I'm aware how weird that sounds), the wizard can pull one of his crafted items with magic missile or something. Or flee and try again with different spells.
Sorcerers simply can't.
This is why a properly built Sorcerer chooses spells that work for most situations. When building a sorcerer, every 1st spell-known for a level is one you'll USE. For example, spells like Haste, Grease and Minor Image have near universal versatility. Even in the high levels, grease can make terrain rough terrain or buff against grapplers, and haste gives the entire party an undeniable edge in combat and movement. Minor image still can cause many high level enemies to misuse time and resources if used strategically.
Any claim that a sorcerer is "stuck" is, I find, directed only at those who make poor choices. The problem is, a player who makes poor spell choices isn't particularly good at playing ANY kind of caster.
I've actually found that to play a wizard well you need to *know* your spells, know *alot* of them, and know them well. A sorcerer's player need only master a handful of spells. So while the wizard class is more forgiving to bad choices for the day, the sorcerer has a more forgiving learning curve.Psst...quick, before anyone notices.
The sorcerer relies on his spells being relevant by chance, and those who do not rely on chance are those that choose spells based on the metagame, avoiding spells that have less longevity, avoiding spells that don't work on as many targets, avoiding spells easily resisted, looking for spells that can be used in as many different ways as possible.
Different ways of saying the same thing. Gotcha.
Sorry, I rushed my reading (was in a conference call).I guess another way to look at it is to say that the "chance" is managed by the Sorcerer's player 's willingness to take risks or conform to strategy.
So what does it say about the class itself, when comparing spontaneous vs. prepared progression?
To me, it simply shows that there are different play styles, and it's nice that there are different classes to fit them. Neither is inherently better or worse, but they are certainly better or worse for different players.
Wizards/Magi/Witches and Clerics/Druids have versatility--they have a vast array of spells, and so can easily afford to take niche spells, leaving slots open also expands their versatility, with Fast Study allowing them to prepare a needed spell in minutes, while using Preferred Spell to let them spontaneously cast highly used spells (most likely their main battle spells, though possibly also something like Fly if they use it frequently enough) Clerics and Druids also can sacrifice spells to spontaneous-cast Cure and Summon Nature's Ally, respectively. They can access a wide number of lesser-used spells, granting them a wide field of expertise.
Sorcerers/Bards and Oracles, on the other hand, have a MUCH more limited number of spells known, but they can cast spontaneously--they might not have the right spell for the job, but if they do, and they have a slot of the spell's level free, they can cast it, without any preparation time or having to use Preferred Spell. They can't as easily afford to take niche spells, they'll probably need to focus on the main highly-used spells, but they can cast them dependably. They have a much narrower focus, but they're effective with less daily planning, and maintain versatility within their narrow field.
Both have pro's and con's. Both work better with different playstyles--prepared casters work better for people who don't mind planning and having to stop to re-plan or fill empty slots, and who prefer having a large list of spells to choose from each day; spontaneous casters work better for people who dislike that kind of planning, like being able to pick spells to cast on the fly, and don't mind having to pick from a much more limited list.
I really don't see either as much more inherently powerful than the other--both spontaneous and prepared have their uses, their pro's, their con's, both match different types of players, etc.
Gecko, come on. The list of options is only small at low level. It gets bigger and bigger with every level the sorc advances. Not having a spell useful in a situation at hand is highly unlikely for any sorc over 8th level. At lower levels, you rely on scrolls or other stuff...just like the wizard does. At higher levels, at ANY TIME, you've got 20, 30, 40 or more options.
And I reference using scrolls and going to town for BOTH classes. If you let Wizzie get scrolls, you have to let Sorc get scrolls. Plus, the wizard doesn't get to create scrolls for 'free'. He needs the components and the time. If all he has is gold, he can't just make a scroll. He actually has to go into town and buy the 125 gp of vellum, ink of squid and dust of diamond to actually scribe the scroll. And if the DM is serious, he might have to do this per scroll (maybe fire scrolls all require garnet dust, ice spells quartz, etc).
So maybe he can't just load up on 1000 gp of generic scroll components, just like you can't load up on 1000 gp of generic magic item components and make 'anything' out of them...you have to buy them for the project at hand, right?
Or do you hand-wave that, like a spell component case? Even if you can buy 'generic scroll-making stuff, 1000 gp', you do still have to BUY it in the first place. Just because you have 5k gp in loot doesn't let you sit around on the plains of the Mwangi Expanse and spin scrolls out of gold coins you just looted from a charuak-ka band.Note that Scribe Scroll IS a class feat for arcane blooded sorcs, too. And they get other class feats, which they can balance off against wizard crafting feats. It's a 6 of 1, half dozen of the other scenario, but it's being emphasized due to Wizards being broadly able to take them, while Sorcs get other feats...which sometimes the wizard can't take with his bonus feats.
And Ash, the wizard will make/buy a wand of magic missiles, because he can't spam the bloody spell, and the sorc can, which means the wiz is out gold the sorc isn't. And that half-blue black dragon will give the wizard conniption fits, too, because he isn't going to be prepared for something like that, and if he has time to get ready, the sorc has time to figure out a different approach, too, even if it means spamming Energized Snowball or something the sorc just bought a Page of SPell Knowledge for, or something.
===Aelryinth
So we're currently arguing that the materials to craft scrolls are harder to come by than scrolls themselves?
K.
...
So what kind of spells did you build to bring? :SI assume it wasn't buff or SM since you said you took those but didn't know what to bring.
I'm trying to remember but that was close to a year ago (our campaigns are very slow moving). He was a foresight diviner that also had spell focus necromancy (which wasn't helping much).
sum mon III
haste
pro from evil x2 (2 guys had horrible will saves)
create treasure map
false life
vanish
dispel magic
detect thoughts
detect undead
blindness
detect secret doors
magic missile
enlarge person
bestow curse
scrying (even though we were rarely given much info, it was something)
see invisibilityI think that is most of my standard load, but I don't really remember for sure.
I can see why you had trouble. I think it would have gone better if you'd specialised in a different school, having to pick divinations at every level must have been frustrating with your group's playstyle.
So we're currently arguing that the materials to craft scrolls are harder to come by than scrolls themselves?
K.
Didn't you know about the secret dungeon dwelling epic level caster party who provides the world's scrolls? How could any scroll merchant compete with that?!
... I can see why you had trouble. I think it would have gone better if you'd specialised in a different school, having to pick divinations at every level must have been frustrating with your group's playstyle. ...
Actually, I usually had a pretty decent use for one divination spell of each level. But not much more. But the bonus to initiative and acting in the surprise round was just so life enhancing, I had to go with it.
Actually, I usually had a pretty decent use for one divination spell of each level. But not much more. But the bonus to initiative and acting in the surprise round was just so life enhancing, I had to go with it.
:P The price you pay for initiative.
So, it could be said that sorcerors excel when DM's are not permissive, and wizards are when DM's are?
I can understand that.
==Aelryinth
Y'know I just figured out a really weird use for Pages of Spell Knowledge a sorceror already has the spells for.
Level up, make a Page of a Spell you know. Replace that spell with a new one from anywhere that you also want. Keep the Page.
Ta da, swap a spell known for a new spell, keep the old one.
==Aelryinth
That seems kinda pointless. Why not just craft the page for a spell you don't know to begin with, eschewing the spell prerequisite for +5 to the DC?
Assuming the Pearl of Power FAQ applies to this too, it'd just be DC 11 for a 1st level spell up to DC 27 for a 9th level spell, which is pretty easy to hit at all levels.
Well, I was making the assumption you have to know the spell :) It would help you, for instance, acquire a spell that's new or not on the standard lists, or unavailable. Swap out one of your own spells for this newer, better one, and keep the old one! :)
And Ashiel is constantly saying that not having access to all those spells for crafting is a major weakness of the sorceror. It's got to be true, right?
==Aelryinth
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It hurts for trying to make items that are above your level or ones with multiple prerequisites; +5 DC at a higher caster, with Int as a tertiary ability score makes hitting those high DCs while taking 10 kinda tough.
In this specific case the DC is never going to be higher than 10+level, which you could meet with a rank in Spellcraft at every level with 10 Int and no class skill bonus. Saying that this case proves something for all cases is a bit of a fallacy.
Edit: Not to mention that with Int tertiary and 2 skill points per level putting maximum ranks into Spellcraft sucks down a huge portion of your skill points.
Well, there aren't many spellcasters that don't take Spellcraft, it's kind of a sunk cost, no?
And if it isn't...then 4k, get a Int+2 Headband (or add it to your + Charisma) with SPellcraft as the denoted skill. If it's the former version, just take it off when you aren't crafting. Unlike some stuff, you get the bonus instantly soons you put it on.
==Aelryinth