Divine
Cleric:Pros:flexible SKPD, large number of spells available, channel energy, healing spells. Cons:need holy symbol, limited domain by deity, chance of losing spells if alignment shifts.
Oracle:Pros:Large number of spells available, unique mystery abilities and spells, knows all thier spells, can cast all cure/inflict spells spontaneously. cons:inflexible SKPD, abilities focused towards specific field, limited spells known.
Druid:Pros:Shapeshifting,animal companion or domain, flexible SKPD. cons:needs focus item, focused spell list.
Ranger:Pros:combat abilities, companion or teamwork bond, monster hunter, terrain bonuses. cons:inflexible SKPD, focused spell list, limited spells known.
Paladin:Combat abilities, lay on hands, divine bond. cons: limited spells known, inflexible SKPD, focused spell list.
Inquisitor:Pros: monster hunting skills, judgements, detection skills. cons: limited spells known, inflexible SKPD, focused spell list.
Um? Paladins are prepared casters, and can change their spells. Inquisitors are spontaneous, however.
==Aelryinth
Um? Paladins are prepared casters, and can change their spells. Inquisitors are spontaneous, however.
==Aelryinth
opps. my bad, did not have the books in front of me. please alter my statements for correct nature in later reply's to them.
This is a textbook situation where the wizard is favored. It even takes place at a level where the wizard gets his spells earlier.
Keep in mind, that will happen at every other level. A wizard will be one step ahead in spell progression at every odd level until the sorc finally catches up for good at level 18.
The counter-example is: You walk into a clearing at the same time a barbarian horde accompanied by a bunch of big trolls clears the other side. Roll initiative.
...and suddenly the wizard might have real problems. Tactical flexibility does indeed favor the sorceror...STRATEGIC flexibility favors the wizard. Sorc because if he has 1-2 spells that are useful in the situation, he can use them over and over...a wizard is unlikely to be able to do so. Wizard, because if he has time and knowledge to prepare, he can simply do more different things...but he needs that time and preparation, which makes it strategic, not tactical.
Perhaps its the word "flexible" that I'm getting hung up on. But I would argue that a wizard can be both strategic and tactical, while a sorc can only be tactical. Another way to look at it: A wizard is a toolbox where you'll always have what you need, provided you pack the right tools. A sorc is a multi function power tool with a few select functions. You wont always have what you need, but what you do have makes the job easier.
That Familiar must have a pretty good UMD, heh.
Yep, Lyrakien Azata with bonus UMD item.
You've also got some very unusual spells there, which you probably somehow acquired and yet don't count against your WBL...another fact hand-waved for many wizards.
Not that unusual. Most guides have them as useful spells. All my spells count toward my WBL, it's almost insulting that you think they're not. Also, A wizard need not buy every spell in the book, but if they wish, they certainly can. Ironically from a straight numbers comparison a level 9 sorc already knows less spells then a level 1 wizard even before purchasing spells. However, my wizard knows over 70 spells. over 3 times that of a standard sorc.
Note that Quick Learner feat allows a Sorc to gain an extra spell and a hit point every level, which is sweet.
And a Sorc with False life effectively has his own 'semi-healing spell' stored away for multiple use, something a wizard is highly unlikely to do.
I'll have to remember that feat for the next time I build a sorc. It is indeed pretty sweet.
As far as the "semi-heal" spell. I could see it coming in handy, but I generally do my best not to get hit, and leave the healing to the healers. As it stands, my familiar carries a CLW wand that I haven't yet needed to use. It could come in handy someday.
I guess I just assume that, one way or another, the party will arrange to cover most of the knowledges, so it's not a specific advantage for the wizard to be able to have them. The main effect is that everyone else will be able to take other useful skills, since you can dump all the knowledges off to the wizard :)
Yes, if you can find out what you're facing, the knowledge will help you prepare for it. Maybe it's been my GMs, but I've usually found the "finding out what you'll be facing part" to be the hardest.Or you learn about the artifact and prepare accordingly and then when you get there find the upper levels occupied by new monsters and the constructs only in the last few areas. And it takes you several days to make your way through the whole thing anyway.
I get it. I really do. I just don't think it's as useful as it's often made out to be.
Regardless of if it's the wizard making the knowledge checks or if its another party member, the idea behind it is to figure out what you're up against before you're up against it. It's said that knowledge is power, and that is particularly true for a wizard.
Of course, there will always be cases where you wont know ahead of time what you're up against. And that is where a sorc has the advantage, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the wizard will be useless in that scenario, just less effective than had he been prepared for it.
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The idea that sorcerers are somehow more versatile than wizards "on the fly" is absurd. Sorcerers literally cannot change their spells at-all over the course of an adventure. Unless your very tiny selection of spells known is suitable for the task and hand then you're made of fail.
It's like trying to argue that the sorcerer is somehow better than the wizard because the sorcerer always has a hammer and the wizard carries a toolbelt that can hold a hammer, or a screwdriver, or a wrench, though not all at the same time.
By the time a sorcerer knows two different spells of a level, a wizard already knows spells of a higher level.
Like, if you're holding up "can cast any spell known at a level in any of that level's slots" as the sorcerer's big advantage over the wizard, it's worth bearing in mind that that advantage doesn't exist at all at first because you only have one spell known when you first unlock a level. (It's even worse if you try to go Crossblooded as an actual sorcerer instead of as a one-level dip out of wizard.) Which, combined with the wizard unlocking spell levels earlier anyhow, keeps the wizard safe from competition.
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Do I have to post the spells known comparison again?
Wizards don't actually have that many more spells known at one time then the sorc does,and this is especially true once you take the human favored class spell known into account. Sorcs can have a tremendous number of spells on tap all the time...and cast them repeatedly.
On top of that, they can use pages of Spell knowledge, wands, staves and scrolls for rare utility spells, just like the wizard. And a Ring of Wizardry doubles their spells known for a level...which stacks with that human favored class thing.
Isn't there even a feat where they can prepare a spell from a spell book?
The spells a level earlier is hardly a game breaker. It's NICE...but in practice it means one or two game sessions.
I will utterly and heartily agree that if a wizard knows what is coming; has fairly made the expansion of his spellbook a priority; and can dig out the perfect spell to deal with a situation; he roxors.
However, if he's caught at the same time with a general load out, which will likely be similar to what a sorceror has, he is at a distinct disadvantage relative, becuase he might have one spell that is useful...and that's the only spell he'll be able to cast, once.
The sorc can spam it as needed. Or take a lower spell up and make it more effective on the moment if he needs to.
They both have good points.
The tool belt analogy Ashiel posits isn't good, because it completely misses the angle of repeated use. The spells are more like ammunition. A general use wizard can have twenty types of ammunition, but he only can use each once unless he specifically plans to have more then one of each.
A sorc will have four types of ammunition, which can each be used five different ways and up to five times.
==Aelryinth
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Do I have to post the spells known comparison again?
I didn't see your original comparison, it would be nice to see it. A link should be enough.
Wizards don't actually have that many more spells known at one time then the sorc does,and this is especially true once you take the human favored class spell known into account. Sorcs can have a tremendous number of spells on tap all the time...and cast them repeatedly.
The human bonus spell is nice, although it will always be at a level lower than their max, which is already a level lower than the wizards. Plus, you're limited to one race, which isn't terrible, but it's nice to have options.
On top of that, they can use pages of Spell knowledge, wands, staves and scrolls for rare utility spells, just like the wizard. And a Ring of Wizardry doubles their spells known for a level...which stacks with that human favored class thing.
Ring of Wizardry doesn't do that, but it does help wizards catch up to the sorc in available spells per day. But honestly its a wash, since either class can get it, as well as the other options you mentioned.
Isn't there even a feat where they can prepare a spell from a spell book?
I would like to know what it is, it would be good to know for my future Sorc Builds.
The spells a level earlier is hardly a game breaker. It's NICE...but in practice it means one or two game sessions.
It takes you one or two gaming sessions to reach level 18? Wowzers! I get what you meant, but I still disagree. A sorc will be a level behind for nearly half his career.
I will utterly and heartily agree that if a wizard knows what is coming; has fairly made the expansion of his spellbook a priority; and can dig out the perfect spell to deal with a situation; he roxors.
However, if he's caught at the same time with a general load out, which will likely be similar to what a sorceror has, he is at a distinct disadvantage relative, becuase he might have one spell that is useful...and that's the only spell he'll be able to cast, once.
No argument here. To reiterate what Asheil said, which I believe is the perfect analogy. A sorc is a hammer. If all you need is a hammer, their great. A wizard can be a hammer, a screwdriver, and any other tool you need. If the job requires a hammer, both the sorc and wizard can do the job. But, the sorc will do it better. If you need a screwdriver, the sorc will try to hammer it in anyway, while the wizard will have access to the right tool, provided he put it in his tool-belt for the day. The trick is, don't head to the job-site unless you know what you're working on that day.
All that said, Pathfinder has multiple tools that helps a wizard be more spontaneous like a sorc, and several tools to help a sorc be more prepared like a wizard. It's foolish for either class not to take advantage of these options, because both classes have their advantages, and the closer you can merge the two, the better off you'll be.
I guess it comes down to a preference, do you want to start by knowing more spells or being able to spam the spells you do know. The goal then becomes, "how can I get closer to the other guy?"
Do I have to post the spells known comparison again?
Didn't believe you the first time, so feel free to try again.
Wizards don't actually have that many more spells known at one time then the sorc does,and this is especially true once you take the human favored class spell known into account. Sorcs can have a tremendous number of spells on tap all the time...and cast them repeatedly.
Because the only good sorcerer is a human sorcerer? That's funny. Sorcerers by default have a pitiful number of spells known. Human helps alleviate it though if you are A) human, B) take more spells at the loss of bonus Hp/skill points.
On top of that, they can use pages of Spell knowledge, wands, staves and scrolls for rare utility spells, just like the wizard. And a Ring of Wizardry doubles their spells known for a level...which stacks with that human favored class thing.
Except they have to buy, beg, borrow, or steal them. Wizards can use their downtime to craft spells that they won't need constantly. Sorcerers cannot craft scrolls, potions, wands, or staffs without meeting their spell prerequisites. Which means that any item that costs more than 16,000 gp (IE - a 4th level wand) is not likely to be something you can find for sale in the core game, and is going to cut into your finances something fierce otherwise.
Also, a Ring of Wizard doubles your spells per day. It does bubkis for your spells known. It's a good item for a sorcerer because they cannot use pearls of power and thus it's the most effective way to get additional magic over the day for them and is a must-have purchase for the serious sorcerer.
Isn't there even a feat where they can prepare a spell from a spell book?
Is there?
The spells a level earlier is hardly a game breaker. It's NICE...but in practice it means one or two game sessions.
On the standard XP progression you will need to encounter 20 equal-CR encounters to level from one level to the next. For many of us that would be much longer than one or two game sessions unless each encounter was extraordinarily difficult and/or filled with high CR enemies relative to the party's level. The last time that the party was leveling that quickly was in a recent game of mine where a 1st level party voluntarily decided to tangle with some bugbears to try and get the head of their leader. Each bugbear in the group was CR 2 (600 XP) and they were constantly dealing with them in encounters that would be considered far beyond them. One PC died during one session. Another two came very close to dying in subsequent sessions with those bugbears.
Even being so heavily outmatched, a group of 4 bugbears (a CR 6 encounter which is over-epic in terms of APL vs CR at APL+5) only earned the party (4 players) 600 XP a piece. It would take 4 of such monstrous encounters to get the PCs to go from 0 XP to 2000 XP and reach 2nd level. If the bugbears were split into smaller groups (say 1-2 bugbears at a time) it would be more survivable but would take between 6 and 12 encounters encounters to level up.
I'm not sure what games you're talking about, but from the average of 4 equal CR encounters per session you would need 5 sessions to level. That's a lot of sessions.
I will utterly and heartily agree that if a wizard knows what is coming; has fairly made the expansion of his spellbook a priority; and can dig out the perfect spell to deal with a situation; he roxors.
However, if he's caught at the same time with a general load out, which will likely be similar to what a sorceror has, he is at a distinct disadvantage relative, becuase he might have one spell that is useful...and that's the only spell he'll be able to cast, once.
The sorc can spam it as needed. Or take a lower spell up and make it more effective on the moment if he needs to.
And the sorcerer can't do anything if his spell selection isn't suitable. Your sorcerer picked up scorching ray? Well what good does that do you when you need to get into an iron door that isn't locked but barred from the other side? You certainly can't blast your way through it (1/2 damage from fire, then apply hardness vs each ray) and you sure can't pull out that scroll of knock you scribed when your party was taking a week off after the last adventure. Likewise, you can't take knock and decide "hey, my invisible familiar scouted out the enemies up ahead and we could really use scorching ray or acid arrow".
Sorcerers have a hammer. With a hammer you try to look at everything like it was a nail. Unfortunately when a hammer won't work then you end up looking like a fool. This is why sorcerers basically have to pick spells that are as broad-ranging as possible or else they are asking for trouble. A sorcerer can't take tiny hut because they need to take haste and if haste won't help the party succeed at something then they're out of luck.
Wizards can pick a variety of spells, scribe some of them in their downtime or craft wands of them if they really want to spam spells a lot (a wizard can craft a CL 9th wand of magic missile for 3,375 gp and spam magic missile throughout most combats without worrying a whole lot about having nothing productive to do between dropping his party buffs or using problem solving spells). Wizards even have an option that allows them to cast spells from wands using their own caster level and using their ability scores (it just requires craft staff and a research) so later the wizard can craft trash-wands (relative to his/her level) and rock socks with them even against creatures with SR.
That's also before we consider that with a single pearl of power of a given level your wizard suddenly becomes a pseudo-spontaneous caster. For example, at 5th level your wizard might prepare haste x2, summon monster III because he wants to have at least 2 haste spells per day. However, upon acquiring or crafting a pearl of power III (4,500 gp to craft himself) the wizard's loadout suddenly becomes something like haste, summon monster III, and fly, and the wizard has 1 floating re-cast. Which means that the wizard can cast each of them and then cast one again with the pearl. The more pearls the more spontaneous the wizard becomes.
The sorcerer has...no 3rd level spells at all. So if we go 6th level, we add another 2 3rd level spells known, and the wizard can prepare all of them (2 base slots, +1 bonus slot, +1 school slot = 4 different spells) and using his pearl can cast each of them once with a floating cast as needed. The sorcerer has 4 uses of his 3rd level spell, but he's only got 1 spell. So our sorcerer's loadout looks like hastex4. Hopefully haste is something you really like casting because that's all you are going to be casting, unless perhaps you plan to be spending full-round actions to empower your magic missile spell from 3d4+3 to 4d4+4.
They both have good points.
The tool belt analogy Ashiel posits isn't good, because it completely misses the angle of repeated use. The spells are more like ammunition. A general use wizard can have twenty types of ammunition, but he only can use each once unless he specifically plans to have more then one of each. A sorc will have four types of ammunition, which can each be used five different ways and up to five times.
Except when your loadout consists of anti-infantry x4, the moment a tank comes along you're boned. Plain and simple.
In my campaigns sorcerers get spell progressions like wizards (as in they get their next level spells 1 level earlier). Additionally they receive their bloodline spells as soon as they would be able to cast them (so you get your 3rd level bloodline spell as soon as you're able to cast 3rd level spells, which means sorcerers always have at least 2 spells known for each spell level). They also have an option for taking cleric domains instead of bloodlines (they give up access to their bloodline but get two domains and their associated powers and add the domain spells to their list of spells known, which gives them both broader versatility and grants access to some spells not commonly found on their spell lists).
After these options they were more in line with wizards.
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Here's the original Spells Known Post.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nn33?Evocation-optimization#39
It also has spell power attached to it.
The problem with the 'hammer' analogy is the presumption that the sorc doesn't take any utility spells in their normal load out, which is pretty facetious. The early levels are the hardest on the sorceror with their standard load out. At later levels, humans do catch up and walk around with more spells known.
You're also trying to argue that the wizard gets feats the sorc doesn/t...which is unfair, because it's not matching those feats up against the bloodline powers that sorcs get, some of which can be item creation feats. You know, like the arcane bloodline gets.
The ring of wizardry doubles spells per day...not spell slots. For sorcs, that means spells known and spell slots. They had a FAQ around on it. It's mondo useful for sorcs. And extra spells known are not 'bonus spells'...theya re extra spells known.
a sorc plays his extra feats from his bloodline off against the feats wizards gain, and sorcs can get some unique stuff that wizards can't, too. Hey, I'm all for wizard discoveries. YOu know high level sorcs can learn how to pay the cost for Staves out of their own spell slots, so it never loses charges? There's a reason the staff of wishes is made by a sorc.
And Ashiel, you're bringing up Pearls of Power, and then turning around and poo-pooing Pages of Spell Knowledge, which the sorc is using to back into the wizard just like he's using Pearls to back into the sorc. It takes very minor feat investment, you know, no more then a cleric or ranger would do, to get access to neccessary stuff. And unlike the wizard, once he has a Page, he NEVER needs to make a scroll or wand of knock, because he'll always have the spell. In effect, Pages are the ultimate scroll/wand/staff combo for a sorc...and they are always cast like the sorc himself, he doesn't need to spend gold and a discovery on a wand!
Furthermore, the ability to swap out spells as you level means that slots diverted to offensive spells at early levels can be swapped out later for utility spells as you get more powerful high levels spells that do the same thing. Like wizards, sorc versatility increases with levels and slots.
The feat about spell preparation someone referenced in another thread. I know there was one in 3.5, did they replicate it in PF?
I'd also like to point out that sorceror Spells Known Progression is heavily nerfed. Wizards progress until they get 4 Spell slots/level (4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4). Sorcerors should end up at 5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5/5 (not including bloodline). Instead, they end up at 5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3, which is blatantly unfair. There is a clear blip at level 2 where they bork the Spells Known progression.
Almost all of the criticism for the sorceror is levelled at them earlier in the game, when they do have less versatility. As you progress to the mid and later game, versatility becomes less and less of an issue as the sorc naturally diversifies into Spells Known at the same time the wizard is diversifying into Staying Power.
Even Seoni, who is basically a blasting wizard, gets more utility spells as she levels, and she's hardly optimized. Heck, they don't even give her traits, let alone the human FC bonus trait for Spells Known!
http://www.pathfindercommunity.net/iconic-characters/seoni---iconic-sorcere r
And y'know what? At level 6 she can still cast a Haste spell in basically every encounter for the day.
==Aelryinth
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I'd also like to point out that much of the wizard's attempt to look like a sorc relies on pearls of power to replicate the multicasts of one spell.
that tactic gets less and less useful by level, because of the quickly increasing costs of such toys. Pearls of Power tend to be bought at levels 1-4 for spells, spread out across all a character's levels...not many wizards kick out 81k for a level 9 pearl.
Without having to resort to extremely expensive tricks, Pages of Spell Knowledge, wands,and scrolls can easily grab up the lower level utility spells wizards most love, and the sorceror can still cast OVerland Flight 5 times a day, or something, enough for the whole party...and the wizard just isn't going to be able to do that.
Or cast the 4 chain lightnings to keep the froghemoth slowed, or the devils twitching and dancing.
It's all in the situations.
==Aelryinth
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...The ring of wizardry doubles spells per day...not spell slots. For sorcs, that means spells known and spell slots. They had a FAQ around on it. It's mondo useful for sorcs. And extra spells known are not 'bonus spells'...theya re extra spells known....
My Search-Fu is weak this evening. If you can give me a point to this it would be grat for my sorc.
WBL increases exponentially, pearls of power prices only increase quadratically. A pearl of power of your highest spell level is a smaller percent of your WBL if you're high-level than if you're low-level.
Pages of Spell Knowledge have the drawback of eating into your spells per day, unlike scrolls.
WBL increases exponentially, pearls of power prices only increase quadratically. A pearl of power of your highest spell level is a smaller percent of your WBL if you're high-level than if you're low-level.
Pages of Spell Knowledge have the drawback of eating into your spells per day, unlike scrolls.
Indeed. Just to put forth this even more, a pearl of power of every level are market price would cost:
9th - 81,000 gp
8th - 64,000 gp
7th - 49,000 gp
6th - 36,000 gp
5th - 25,000 gp
4th - 16,000 gp
3rd - 9,000 gp
2nd - 4,000 gp
1st - 1,000 gp
Or 285,000 gp if all were purchased (technically impossible unless your luck is insane). If crafted yourself (more likely) then you're looking 142,500 gp. Your WBL at 20th level is 880,000 gp without item creation being figured in. You can buy extras.
I like sorcerers better since I have less book keeping, but I know where the power is. If the OP is still around he should do a search on this topic. It has come up before. A player that knows his stuff will not have a spell that wont work. At worst I have seen a wizard not have the perfect spell when needed.
At the end of the day though either class in the hands of a good player can give a GM headaches.
...The ring of wizardry doubles spells per day...not spell slots. For sorcs, that means spells known and spell slots. They had a FAQ around on it. It's mondo useful for sorcs. And extra spells known are not 'bonus spells'...theya re extra spells known....My Search-Fu is weak this evening. If you can give me a point to this it would be grat for my sorc.
My search-fu is weaker, I can't even locate the FAQ most of the time.
I do know that when I saw it, wee, that really did help out the sorc some.
Of course, if they've reversed it and it only covers spell slots, that's blatantly favoring wizards, but it IS a Ring of Wizardry.
As for making the Pages of Spell Knowledge:
A scroll is at lower caster level, prompts AoO's if used, and costs money.
Spells cast are cheap, free, plentiful, at your own caster level, and you can even meta them if needed. And available right now, which is always a plus.
I believe knowing the spell is one of those pre-reqs you can +5 DC away, yes? In any event, they could always swap with another sorc, or get the spell of a wizard. It's all fair in magic and war, after all!
==Aelryinth
WBL increases exponentially, pearls of power prices only increase quadratically. A pearl of power of your highest spell level is a smaller percent of your WBL if you're high-level than if you're low-level.
Pages of Spell Knowledge have the drawback of eating into your spells per day, unlike scrolls.
And the magic items you buy at that level increase exponentially in cost.
after all, you're eating up 250k for +5 Inherent bonuses to Int and Con right there. Start swapping in +5 Ring of Prot (50k), +5 Cloak of Res (25k), +6 Stat enhancers (Int, Con, Dex = 126k), a +5 weapon (50k), +8 Bracers (64k), and you're down 614k already! On top of this is the 125k it's going to cost to get your spellbook brimming with every spell possible, and suddenly 880k doesn't actually leave a lot of wiggle room for getting miscellaenous stuff.
==Aelryinth
They increase quadratically in cost, not exponentially.
And I've never seen anyone buy a +5 inherent bonus to two stats.
No? Odd, seems to happen all the time at level 20 in builds. they might split them up between different stats.
Heck, if you're playing with Ashiel, I think she basically grants the +5's as soon as you can summon an Efreet or two.
==Aelryinth
And why is your wizard buying a +5 magic weapon?
And why is your wizard paying store price for items like the +6 enhancers that can be easily made more cheaply with Craft Wonderous anyhow? It only takes 18 days to craft a +6 Int headband; are you gaining levels at a rate of one per day?
No? Odd, seems to happen all the time at level 20 in builds. they might split them up between different stats.
Heck, if you're playing with Ashiel, I think she basically grants the +5's as soon as you can summon an Efreet or two.
==Aelryinth
For best results you'll want 5 efreeti, and I think that probably still falls in line with Roberta's comments on nobody buying more than one +5 inherent modifier ('cause tomes and wish spells are grossly overpriced when it comes to inherent modifiers).
A bit off topic but since someone mentioned the inherent modifiers, it's actually a boon to the game's balance. Full casters are probably going to be the guys who actually can get inherent modifiers at a seemingly affordable price (particularly in the case of item creators), which means that save DCs are gonna get higher. Martials and MAD classes are going to appreciate the bump far more. Given the nature of high level games it's neither out of place nor unexpected in terms of balance (it's actually pro-balance).
And why is your wizard buying a +5 magic weapon?
And why is your wizard paying store price for items like the +6 enhancers that can be easily made more cheaply with Craft Wonderous anyhow? It only takes 18 days to craft a +6 Int headband; are you gaining levels at a rate of one per day?
Now we're going to not get into an argument over how WBL works.
If you create a level 20 character, he gets his 880k of goodies, that's fine. If you then want to have him take off two years to make all his goodies, that's fine, too...everyone else can go adventure during his down time.
And why wouldn't a wizard buy a +5 weapon? He just might need it to administer some touch attack, and GMW doesn't bypass DR. It's never a bad thing to have a backup.
I was making the point that prices of stuff get astronomical at higher levels, and a wizard doesn't have nearly the room to play around with getting everything under the sun as you might think.
==Aelryinth
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I'm a little bit disappointed that no one has brought up that in reality Sorcerers and Oracles are infinitely more flexible then Wizards or Clerics, provided of course that those Sorcerers and Oracles are Half-Elf, are level 6, and take the spell Paragon Surge. This is by no means novel at this point, but a Half-Elf Sorcerer or Oracle with Paragon Surge can simply gain the feat Expanded Arcana (this only works with Spontaneous Casters leaving Wizards and Clerics quite out in the cold) which allows a Sorcerer or Oracle to effectively have the entirety of their respective lists at their disposal with nothing more then standard action and a 3rd level spell slot.
Obviously, Oracles are even better then Sorcerers in this regard as once they hit 11th level they can utilize Paragon Surge to acquire Eldritch Heritage, Improved, which combined with the Sorcerer Arcane Bloodline gives a Half-Elf Oracle the entire Sorcerer and Oracle list at the drop of a hat. I cannot think of any tactic that a Wizard or Cleric has that comes even close to approximating this level of flexibility, particularly in regards to Oracles. I admit there are very few things that make want to set myself behind a level on learning new levels of spells, but instant access to 1 or 2 entire lists of spells certainly justifies it in my mind.
Again this is fairly well known and hardly novel, so I'm rather shocked that no one pointed this out yet, since it puts the Sorcerer and Oracle solidly ahead in terms of versatility.
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Text exert verbatim from the books regarding RoW:
The wearer's arcane spells per day are doubled for one specific spell level.
Emphasis mine.
That is obviously spell slots, not spells known. Also, that's kind of why there are multiple levels of the RoW. Each spell level's slots. Plus, if you think about it, allowing it to increase spells known would be horribly broken. Follow my logic. I am Sorcerer. I have RoW. I don't know a spell that will help us storm the castle tomorrow, because I took Control Summoned Creature and there are no casters to fight here. Let me take my ring off, and then put it back on. Ok! Sorcerer forgot Control Summoned Creature! Sorcerer learned Dimensional Door!
Rinse and repeat. Now sorcerers would be prepared spell casters. Sort of. Not buying it.
The sorcerers spells known advance in a completely different manner than spell slots. A Sorcerers spells known are NEVER referred to as spell slots or spells per day, always separately. If advancing spell's per day advanced spells known, then why doesn't bonus spells from high charisma add new spells known?
A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.)
I can see no way that the ring of wizardry can be interpreted to add spells known for a sorcerer.
Hell, it already gives 6 spells a day to sorcerer and only 4 to the wizard. If it also gave 6 spells known to the sorcerer it would be an absolute must have item and way underpriced. It'd be worth 6 favored class bonus' and work for any race, or 3-6 expanded arcana feats depending on level. I can't think of any other item worth that much off the top of my head.
And that's assuming you didn't allow the hack Alcomus brought up.
If my GM allowed that, I'd be playing a sorcerer every game.
Actually, that does bring up an issue though. Why can't a wizard remove and re-equip his ring, then re-prepare a different 4 spells in those slots? It would take 15 + minutes, but that's a hell of a way to get 4 open slots really quick.
If he spends a feat on the quick study arcane discovery, he could do that in much less time.
Perhaps the ring's description says spells per day for a reason; to exclude it from being spell slots specifically. Perhaps a ring of wizardry then acts like 4 pearls of power for the Wizard, only way more expensive?
The only way I can see to stop the ring of wizardry spell switch exploit without making the item WORSE than 4 pearls of power would be to rule that if you remove/re-don the ring you get the 4 spells you prepared in those slots earlier back, instead of fresh spell slots you can put anything in.
Interestingly though, 4 level 4 pearls cost the same as a level 4 ring.
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Because the instant he removed the ring, he empties the slots.
Then when he puts it back on, he's got 4 slots he just emptied back, and has to have 8 hours of rest before he can do anything...just like the rules.
As for the RoW viz sorcerors, it effectively gives wizards both spells slots and spells known at the same time. (shrugs) Is what it is.
The half-elf paragon surge isn't brought up and used for comparisons in the same manner that human FC benefit sorcs aren't used for the standard (I didn't in the example above, but they add +17 spells to spells known....3/2/2/2/2/2/2/2. If you can open a level 10 slot above 20, then they can add level 9 spells, too...)
And that reason is not all sorcs are half-elves or humans. Just like not all wizards are thassillonian specialists and can match sorcs for spell slots.
==Aelryinth
I think it´s absolutely cool and legal for a wizard to own several rings of wizardry on different levels.
When needed switch them, take the wizard thing that let´s you prepare spells faster and go.
On the other hand, i remember that one could take spell slots for lower level spells or even split them, but not sure if this is still legal in PFS. Then you could just get the highest ring you can afford and prepare spell when you need them in a minute. That would be pretty cool.
Oh and thank you Anzyr for pointing this spell out. I didn´t know it and it suddenly makes half-elves attractive again for sorcerers too next to gnomes, humans and kitsune. Humans might be the most powerful because of their racial alternative class bonus, but i´m beginning to think that gnomes and kitsune are more fun to roleplay mostly. Half-elves were never so interesting to me for the same reason as half-orcs, parents blah blah blah, society blah blah blah, poor me blah blah blah...
To me sorcerers and wizards are 2 different concepts to play, just like LazarX said above. But i try to play concepts and character ideas. Other might want other stuff and therefore need absolute power challenges.
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Debate me and make playing a wizard, witch, cleric, or even druid sound like a good idea!
Don't do it! Sorcerers and Oracles are the best man! Spontaneous 4 life.
I guess it comes down to a preference, do you want to start by knowing more spells or being able to spam the spells you do know. The goal then becomes, "how can I get closer to the other guy?"Otherwise known as the stupid way to play both classes, especially the sorcerer. For the sorcerer you pick a magical theme and you WORK it. For a wizard you pick various strategies and learn to build them and others. Trying to ape the other class gives you much less payback than simply perfecting the strengths of your own.
I fully disagree. When I play a sorc I will do everything in my power to know more spells. You'll be a stronger sorc for it. As a wizard some of the best strategies when you can't fully prepare is being able to spam a spell like a sorc can. Preferred spell certainly helps with that.
If you don't try to make yourself more versatile, then you will essentially have gimped yourself for certain encounters.
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Here's the original Spells Known Post.
That comparison certainly examines the two classes with a bit of a bias. Assuming the sorc will be human, assuming the wizard will only have 18 int, assuming the wizard doesn't specialize, assuming the wizard never scribes spells to his book.
So, you managed to get 62 spells for a level 20 sorc.. Congratz, my 9th level wizard has over 70.
Here's the original Spells Known Post.That comparison certainly examines the two classes with a bit of a bias. Assuming the sorc will be human, assuming the wizard will only have 18 int, assuming the wizard doesn't specialize, assuming the wizard never scribes spells to his book.
So, you managed to get 62 spells for a level 20 sorc.. Congratz, my 9th level wizard has over 70.
No, it's worse than that.
His "Spells Known" for a wizard isn't spells in a spell book, it's maximum number of spells "known" (ie prepared) at any one time.
Yikes! thanks for pointing that out. I saw the wall of garbled numbers and found the one usable piece,(62 spells total for his human sorc). I stopped there because I already had more spells than that on a 9th level wizard. I never realized he wasn't even doing an apples to apples comparison there. Very disingenuous.
