Another thread got me thinking about unarmed strike ninjas. Assuming that a player had to play a ninja from level 1, is an unarmed strike build even playable (assuming you actually want to be effective)? Without multiclassing into monk?
If you were starting at level 10 or 12, I can see it. But not from level 1.
The ninja tricks dealing with unarmed strike feel incomplete to me. It's like someone laid half the groundwork needed for the build and then stopped. And the only serious option for merging a monk and ninja is getting the GM's permission to count the monk abilities as needed prereqs for the advanced ninja trick that lets you add ninja level -4 to the monk's damage table.
What would you need to do to actually make this idea work?
There is actually a nice workout, some would call it a loophole.
Take 3 levels of monk, then monastic legacy feat, rest ninja and go the unarmed damage ninja route. Don´t forget to add in monk´s robes.
You will be higher counted as a monk as you would be as a straight monk :)
Don't think I've ever seen that feat before. Cool!
So at least there's a "multiclass with monk" way. Adding a 4th monk level means you wouldn't need a high charisma, at least.
Anyone got anything for a straight ninja build?
Well, you could still do the usual Sap Adept/Sap Master/Knockout Artist/TWF build as a pure ninja if you wanted. This is obviously pretty feat-intensive but it's doable.
The trouble with starting this sort of thing at 1st level is that the build doesn't really come together until you've picked up several of the feats; until then, you're going to fight rather a lot like a typical ninja with a wakizashi or whathaveyou. But then again, I find it more fun to grow into a build over time than to just play with the whole thing already assembled.
Hm, I hadn't noticed that the unarmed fighting master trick only applies to damage. So yeah, the straight ninja would have to go TWF.
That's pretty different from monks mechanically. But it would be an interesting 'rogue mimics monk' idea. Could be interesting.
So here's what a build like that would look like, as near as I can figure:
1 Feat: Sap Adept
2 Trick: Invisibility Trick
3 Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting
4 Trick: Unarmed Combat Training
5 Feat: Sap Master
6 Trick: Weapon Training (Unarmed Strike)
7 Feat: Enforcer (Sneak Attacks give shaken condition)
8 Trick: Combat Trick (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting)
9 Feat: Knockout Artist
10 Trick: Invisibility Blade
11 Feat: ???
12 Trick: Unarmed Combat Master
Biggest problem with the build is the exact same problem with a monk build- it's MAD and has a lower chance of hitting. Also, you don't get flurry or anything like brass knuckles to help out.
It's also so feat and trick heavy that you'd better be human if you want Improved Initiative to help you go first.
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As a Ninja, I'd focus more on poisons.
I'd very likely grab Adder Strike, Bleeding Attack, Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Cornugon Smash and focus on Intimidate. They might make their save from your first landed power attack, but they are less likely to make it from the second, or third (use that ki!)
I'd also seriously consider Stunning Fist, and Dastardly Finish.
The list of traits is long but lasting poison, minor and major magic (get true strike maybe), Deadly Cocktail, Hunters Susrprise, the list is really long, actually.
And probably grab a few feats in the feint tree and traits in the disguise tree. You could have a rather versatile hand to hand combatant that can kill with incredible skill.
If I were making one, I'd take things related to disguise, unarmed fighting and poison as primaries, followed by stealth and anything else that refines the above (stunning fist into dastardly finish while using a true strike, adder striked bleeding, cornugon smash while I am in the Mantis style.....
I'd also take stunning fist adept...and if there is somehow room, sap adept and sap master. Since you are fighting unarmed, you can alternate your damage as you wish. If you are not 100% sold on being a PURE ninja, you can multiclass into both Monk and Fighter to shore up the missing pieces and save plenty of feats and walk away with some perks...it would be pretty insanely beastly...A single landed attack from you would require so many saving throws that the damage you deal would be an afterthought.
A second strike from you could easily prove fatal or incredibly debilitating...
When you're not using expensive poisons or facing poison immune foes you can rely on the sneak attacks and regular unarmed damage and stuns into dastardliness.
This actually sounds like a REALLY fun pseudo assassin. I might have to build this and see what it can really do now. Heh. Monk/Fighter/Ninja!
Dark Immortal, can you try explaining that again? I get the overall concept, but it sounds super feat intensive. I think maybe half of the things you're describing would actually fit into the build.
Stargazer Dragon- Yeah, it really does look like a ninja who wants to fight unarmed would have to start as monk first. There are just too many advantages to doing it.
In you description, did you have a particular monk archetype in mind or is that just classic monk?
Also, I'm not sure I follow you at level 5...
5> Ninja Trick - Weapon Focus Unarmed - + Wis to Ki pool (Ki pool is now 1/2 LVL + 2x Wis mod.
So assume a character had a wisdom of 16 and charisma of 14. At level 5, how much ki would he have?
I did a Ninja/Fighter (Unarmed Fighter archtype) once from 1st to 6th level. Worked pretty well. Not sure how well it scales at higher levels.
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Mystically Inclined, I will try but you are correct in that getting 'all' of the suggestions is super feat intensive (which is why I threw fighter levels in there).
Rogue Talents:
Combat Trick-
Lasting Poison- -2 save dc for the poison but lasts two attacks.
Swift Poison-Move action application of poison-standard for lasting.
Weapon Training-gives weapon focus (pick unarmed).
Feat- any (advanced)
Deadly Cocktail (advanced) 2 doses of poison at once, +2 dc and +50% duration if same poison.
Ninja Talents:
Combat Trick- Improved Initiative
Smoke Bomb
Poison Bomb
Chocking Bomb
Style Master- Mantis Style +2 stunning fist DC (See Dastardly Finish).
Sudden Disguise
Unarmed Combat Training
Vanishing Trick
Blinding Bomb (Advanced)
Master of Disguise (Advanced)
Unarmed Combat Mastery (Advanced)-important!
Feats
Adder Strike- Swift action application of 1 poison to two body parts.
Improved Feint- Bluff to feint as move instead of standard action.
Greater Feint- Debuff lasts until next turn instead of next attack.
Power Attack
Cornugon Smash- Free intimidate on target hit with power attack.
Dastardly Finish- Coupe De Gras a stunned or cowering foe.....
Stunning Fist Adept- +1 DC of stunning fists (see dastardly finish)
Mantis Wisdom- 1/2 non monk levels count as monk for stunning fist.
Blind Fighting (if you really like the smoke bomb tree).
Sap Adept/Master- Bonus SA damage, just do nonlethal with fists.
***
Feinting Flurry/Improved Feinting Flurry- Ignore these.
Passing Trick- If small swift action feint on successful acro check.
Stunning Fist/Improved Unarmed Strike- take a level of monk for these.
Skills
Intimidate- Once shaken target has -2 saves, skills and attack.
Bluff- Useful for feint to deny dex and get SA off.
Heal- (for Mantis style) Also cures poisons you inflict.
Disguise- Because like, all the disguise stuff. Can't always use Ki.
The skills should be painfully obvious since they are what about 1/3 of the feats focus on. :)
10 levels of ninja will get us four of those regular talents and one advanced one. Everything on this list isn't needed. It's just a few paths that can -very- easily be followed and mastered along with whatever you are trying to do in unarmed fighting. Poison isn't necessary, disguise isn't needed, feinting isn't a requirement. But you wanted to make unarmed fighting viable as a non-monk and a ninja specifically, this is a non-damage dealing option (with the sap master path as a potential damage dealing option) if you really just want to hit things hard.
In the end, if you punch someone, they'll have to save versus stunning fist. They'll also have to save against one application of poison that lasts for 4 attacks or you could make them save against two different poisons with each attack, and if you're feinting they're also going to have to make that sense motive check or you're also going to sneak attack them and if you took sap master or a sneak attack effect that requires a save they'll have to deal with those things, too. If you have bleeding attack (which I didn't put on the feat list) you can make them bleed with any of these hits each round. And you an apply these poisons as standard, move or swift action depending on what you're applying and how. We haven't even gotten into hurling blinding smoke bombs with poison that might be able to choke.
Monks robes, those poisoners gauntlets, some sort of poison immunity/resistance and blind fighting could make for a terribly fun guy. Amulet of Mighty Fists and ideally, anything else that can make your opponent make a save on your attacks or suffer (Disorienting Blow, Touch of Serenity, Jawbreaker, etc). I hope this explains the general idea(s) fairly well. 4+ saving throws per attack, every round while you flurry...SOMETHING is going to stick.
It only takes two levels of fighter, one level of Monk and the rest in Ninja to grab virtually every feat (though many come later).
Dark immortal, stunning someone yourself and then dastardly finishing him doesn´t work out, because of action economoy and the duration of the stun.
Ive had an idea floating around recently...
Tiefling Ninja with a possible 1 level dip into Sorcerer.
Blinding Sneak Attack, Fiendish Darkness, and Nightmare fist.
between Ninja Vanishing Step, Sorcerer slots (filled with vanish)...
1.) Use Darkness on yourself. its a min./level spell like ability, you'll be fine.
2.) Use some method to gain a sneak attack in melee... Flanking, invisibility, etc.
3.) Wait for a full attack.
At minimum, every other round you will get a full round of sneak attacks. If you have someone to help flank, you can get it every round. This is due to Blinding Sneak Attack. basically, once you get a sneak attack off, the target is flat footed for a round while YOU are within magical darkness. The FORT DC to negate this is 10+DAMAGE dealt.
Nightmare Fist adds +2 damage to unarmed strikes while within magical darkness. it also effectively raises the DC of Blinding Sneak Attack by 2.
Fiendish Darkness is so you get 3 uses/day of Darkness. I also recommend a wand.
Seems like a fairly effective unarmed ninja.
it's more feat intensive but you can do that with a better dip with a drow (Or half-drow)
just go up the nobility feat tree until you can use darkness at will, then grab 1 dip into the cavern sniper fighter archetype. in essence allowing for darkness to be ranged if wanted, also winding up with many extra useful spell like abilities. a half-drow may also use the human heritage feat, popping extra racials if any are seen that are useful.
Problem with drow is that blinding sneak attack is a tiefling racial feat.
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Ok, did some playing around with a 4 monk 16 ninja build using Monastic Legacy and Unarmed Combat Master. Here's where I am confused.
Emphasis mine, everything else came from d20pfsrd.com and the Paizo prd.
Monastic Legacy (Combat)
Your formal unarmed training continues to bolster your training in other areas.Prerequisite: Still mind class feature, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Benefit: Add half the levels you have in classes other than monk to your monk level to determine your effective monk level for your base unarmed strike damage. This feat does not make levels in classes other than monk count toward any other monk class features.
...and...
Unarmed Combat Mastery: A ninja who selects this trick deals damage with her unarmed strikes as if she were a monk of her ninja level –4. If the ninja has levels in monk, this ability stacks with monk levels to determine how much damage she can do with her unarmed strikes. A ninja must have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat before taking this trick.
Looking at these, I gather the following for calculating damage:
4(monk) + 12(ninja via unarmed combat mastery) + 8(class other than monk via Monastic Legacy)=24.Did I do something wrong here, is this RAW? RAI? RAW is seems right, but I need a ruling from somebody. At least another opinion.
As i said, it´s kind of a loophole. And for further fun you can add in monk´s robe, which you really should^^. It adds another 5 levels of unarmed damage progression, So you end up at level 29 for unarmed damage on level 20. I´m not sure what follows after 2d10 for medium unarmed damage, according to old posts on this board it could be 2d10>3d8>3d10>4d8>4d10>5d10>6d10>etc, meaning you look at 3d10 damage at level 20 + STR/DEX + Sneack Attack eventually.
Personally i would do that with a DEX build, weapon finesse, agile amulett of mighty fists and agile maneuvers if you take a ninja, because that way you can still wear armor and end up with a higher AC, sticking your ki to CHA. Also the new stuff for monks.
With WIS to ki and AC you won´t end up with such a high AC, because you can´t wear armor.
Which just leaves the to-hit issue. 4 levels of monk means you can flurry for -1, and the hand to hand damage is certainly attractive. Going the poison route and adding poison to gloves would introduce a debuff element, too. But the chance of hitting is still pretty low.
I suppose the 'ninja' way of doing it would be to look for every dirty trick and bonus you could find. Flank, throw something to debuff before you get there, fight from darkness so that he's blind, target his touch AC. Anything you can think of that isn't 'stand next to him while full attacking into his high AC.'
Catfolk Ninja. With 1d6 claws and 1d8 Sneak Attack.
End of story.
4 levels of monk give you a +2/+2 flurry, to which you add ninja BAB.
You then take full DEX to hit with weapon finesse, buff your DEX as high as you can.
Headband of Ninjutsu comes in handy. I think there was a new item that buffs monks unarmed combat, but i don´t know it´s name. Perhaps i can research it later or you look in one of the monk threads.
Vanishing trick-invisible blade
Ifrit fire sight + smoke bombs
are good ways to get sneak attack on your own.
If you go flanking, give your agile amulet of mighty fists the menacing quality and take outflank with the other guy together. With headband of ninjutsu you would look at +8 to hit then.
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Oooh, Just to consolidate:
Headband of Ninjitsu
Firesight (Ifrit)/Racial Heritage if needed.
Monastic Legacy
Are all excellent additions I hadn't thought of (or known about).
Don't forget to add Poisoners Gloves to deliver those critical poisons at only a touch attack. More important if you can't get full bab (ie monk with flurry).
Hayato Ken- yeah, I meant -1 from whatever your normal attack would be. It made sense in my head. :)
It's from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abil ities/agile