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Daemons (pronounced DAY-mons) are among the youngest of the fiendish races, having come into existence before demons. Their existence is tied in with the existence of the mortals they prey upon. Their insidious evil is not influenced by notions of law and chaos, as daemons concern themselves only with the destruction of life itself. Daemons seek this destruction as it allows them to feast on mortal souls, which is the focus of their existence. They are creatures of the apocalypse and seek the utter destruction of all things, to plunge the Great Beyond into absolute oblivion. The daemons make their home on the plane of Abaddon, thought to be one of the most hostile planes of the multiverse.
Tieflings really don't "fit." They're simply the result of fiendish (demon/devil) corruption in an existing bloodline. The resulting "pollution" might be recent--with the tiefling being the offspring or grandchild of a half-fiend-- or it may have happened generations ago, but from time to time it resurfaces, resulting in a tiefling.
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Daemons are something different. They seek to end all things. Making everything go kaput. They hate the living and are born for pitiful death. Demon's, on the other hand, are born of sin and just like to smash and stuff. They lack the focus and the drive of Daemons, and also like to keep the universe going forward so they have more to destroy.
Tieflings are the result of any type of fiend's blood. This includes the 3 D's you mentioned as well as Div, Rakshasa, Qlippoth, Asura, Demodands, Kytons, and Oni.
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A bit of refinement on demons might help:
Demons don't want to destroy everything. They want to @#$% everything up.
Devils want souls to use as tools.
Demons want souls to use as toys.
Daemons want souls to be destroyed and gone.
Devils wouldn't want everything to be destroyed because there would be nothing left to rule.
Demons wouldn't want everything to be destroyed because there would be nothing left to have fun with.
Daemons want everything to be destroyed, including themselves in the end.
Devils are slaves to their ideologies.
Demons are slaves to their passions.
Daemons are slaves to their nihilism.
Demons and devils have been known to put differences aside for a time to work together with other outsiders, including celestials against a common threat.
Daemons aren't generally known for that, as they tend to be that common threat.
Devils existed first, if they're to be believed, but eventually they began crafting mortal souls into more of their own kind.
Daemons originally arose spontaneously with the deaths of mortals. Eventually even mortal souls managed to be twisted into their kind by thenature of Abaddon.
Demons started as a daemonic experiment in mixing mortal souls with Abyssal nature and it wound up backfiring spectacularly. Now it's just a perpetual engine converting mortal souls into demonkind.
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And yeah, like the guys upthread said tieflings are just mortals who have gotten fiendish blood or energies somewhere in their bloodline. Its manifestation can skip generations too, so two regular mortal parents could wind up with a tiefling child because of something that happened generations ago. Or because they formed babby close to something giving off foul enough vibes. Or other reasons.
And tieflings can also be born with the "genes" of any of the fiendish types, from devils to demons to daemons to asuras to kytons to qlippoth. Ten total, so far!
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Devil makin' happens a number of ways, it turns out. Some are fallen celestials, but others can be crafted from mortal souls as well, though those ususally start at the very bottom of the infernal ladder.
Princes of Darkness has some details on how some specific kinds are made, IIRC, as well as how some are "promoted" to more powerful forms. (I might wind up conflating details between that book and 3.5's book on devils if I tried to name explicit examples though)
Mortal souls made into devils typically start at the Lemure or Nupperibo stage, and I think the latter was implied to be something of a natural progression that some of the damned fall into as their minds are tortured out of them.
IIRC, devils as a whole started with a "war in Heaven" situation, if Princes of Darkness is to be believed(remember, Asmodeus lies!). That war started as a war between chaos and law though, IIRC, eventually turning into a war over whether or not mortals should be given free will. That war ended with the death of Asmodeus' CG brother, Ihys, who was Sarenrae's old boss and the patron of free will.
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Yep, and any mortal could potentially make that same deal.
It's just that the odds of them getting what they really wanted out of the deal are very slim. ;) Most folks that treat with devils hoping to score some power in Hell wind up at the bottom of the heap anyway. Succeeding or failing in one's service to the powers of Hell also comes into play there...
The Demoniac in Lords of Chaos is a bit close to the flavor you're looking for I think, except applied towards demons. It's geared towards mortals that seek to become demons without having to die and then work their way up the ladder. It shouldn't be hard to work into something infernal in flavor, I think.
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Isn't that a trichotomy?
Lol you beat me to it meatrace.
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Only thing the rest of the multi-verse hates as much as daemons are the qlippoth. When you're bad enough that NG hands LE the key to your prison, you're way beyond having 'issues'.
To expand on what others have said, demons are very... virile. Using excerpts from faiths of corruption, though this is specifically about Lamashtu, it fit the abyss/demons rather well.
...and see existence as an endlessly swarming, roiling bath of blood and entrails, a constant churn of life rising and falling under the teeth and blades of those stronger, smarter, or luckier. They are the incarnations of poisoned fertility.
...life is about constant movement, eternal
change and growth toward strength, and embracing the
savagery within you while wearing your deformities as a
badge. War means birth, as the children of submission and
savagery grow to loathe and replace their forefathers.
Devils are created in-masse, like a twisted mix of assembly line and boot-camp. Lemures are impaled on saw-toothed glaives by the tens-of-thousands and after about 500(?) years they turn into Bearded-devils. Then, select Bearded devils are impaled on the iron spires of Dis to become Erinyes.
Daemons form from souls that are strongly connected to a particular manner of death, and that were 'fortunate' enough to not be devoured on arrive to Abaddon.
You can make a deal with devils. Granted they will do their best, and their best is very good, to screw you over, but they are reliable.
Demons are predicable. They will always challenge and try to supplant you. The only thing they obey is power, and present power at that.
Daemons are unstable explosives. Sometimes they'll abide by agreements, and sometime they won't. Sometimes they follow hierarchy and respect power, and other times they'll go berserk and attack a foe they have little or not chance against. It's hard to predict how a being that wants nothing more than oblivion for you and it is going to react.
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Another thing to remember is that Demons and Devils thoroughly hate each other. They're fighting over the same souls, after all. Demons and Devils will fight each other at any opportunity. And they'll still work together and with Celestials as well for the sake of warding off a significant threat by Daemons.
Just a note: The hatred isn't THAT intense. There is no more hatred between them than there is from the fiend towards ANYTHING that isn't them. This isn't D&D, there is no Blood War.
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Pit fiends can also create other devils which is pretty boss. :P
Its just to have one outsider race to personify each alignment.
Demons chaotic-evil
Daemons neutral-evil
Devils lawful-evil
If you ask me that would be enough with the evil outsiders, but no we also need Oni,Rakshasas,Divs,Qlippoths and whatnot....
Honestly I'm not surprised people are confused, its getting awfully crowded in the outsider department.
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Devils corrupt the mind, Demons desecrate the body, Daemons want to destroy all life, Demodands serve the Thanatotic Titans, Divs despoil the works of mortals, Asuras hate the gods, Rakshasa seek to control through their disguises, but are tied to our plane, and Oni adopt physical forms in our world, but are corrupted by ambition. Did I miss anything?
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Devils corrupt the mind, Demons desecrate the body, Daemons want to destroy all life, Demodands serve the Thanatotic Titans, Divs despoil the works of mortals, Asuras hate the gods, Rakshasa seek to control through their disguises, but are tied to our plane, and Oni adopt physical forms in our world, but are corrupted by ambition. Did I miss anything?What's the story with the qlippoth?
They're the original denizens of the Abyss, just like devils are the original denizens of Hell.
However, the qlippoths started experimenting with mortal souls merging them with the nature of the Abyss, and the experiment went a bit too well, so they faced a planar extinction-level event.
Devils corrupt the mind, Demons desecrate the body, Daemons want to destroy all life, Demodands serve the Thanatotic Titans, Divs despoil the works of mortals, Asuras hate the gods, Rakshasa seek to control through their disguises, but are tied to our plane, and Oni adopt physical forms in our world, but are corrupted by ambition. Did I miss anything?
Yep, there are also the Titans, the Kytons, and the Oni, and thats not getting into subtypes like Shadow Demons or Half-Fiends.
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Oni are evil spirits clothed in mortal flesh, enjoying the sensual pleasures of the physical world. (Like the blood of fallen enemies gushing over you.) They're not really involved in this extraplanar nonsense. They're busy pestering the Kami (their good/neutral counterparts). Japanese flavor.
Asuras are created when gods make mistakes. They hate existence and gods in particular. They want to destroy faith, religion and gods. They don't have their own home plane. Indian flavor; they're like evil but enlightened mystics.
Rakshasas are selfish souls that reincarnate and infiltrate human society. If Buddhist virtues are to be un-attached to the world and escape reincarnation, rakshasas are the opposite of that. Not extraplanar either. Indian flavor.
Divs are corrupted genies. I don't like them very much.
Qlippoths are evil things that lived in the Abyss before the demons made a mess of the place. They think that since demons are created from mortal sins, if mortal life is exterminated, they'll get the Abyss back.
Kytons are bondage/cybernetic enhancement freaks. They're all about self-perfection through lots of torture.
Demondands were made by the Thanatotic Titans (guys who fought with the gods and lost) to fight against the gods.
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As you can see, everything got its own flavor, but it does get a bit crowded.
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It may be a "talk to the GM" situation. There's precedent for it in Golarion canon, but the only player-geared mechanic that support that idea is the Demoniac prestige class and the related rituals to become a demon.
I'd ask the GM if the idea would be workable with those rules and some flavor adjustment.
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The best conversation I've seen CLEARLY outlining the dichotomy between the three is HERE. This thread has some great guidance and commentary by James Jacobs in it.
@Thick: I would read Way of the Wicked books one and two. It describes the transformation of a tiefling ogre into a half-fiend. If I recall correctly, the transformation occurs when he drinks some unholy water in the vicinity of a very occult ritual that is being enacted.
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In real-world mythology, Devils are original fallen angels while Demons are the result of the death of the offspring of Angels/Devils and Humans.In what real-world mythology? I find little evidence that devils, plural, exist in standard mythology; Devil usually uniquely refers to one being.
On a side note, the whole Angels/Devils mating with humans (typically females) is the origin of the tradition of women covering their heads and faces in the Middle East; to hide them from higher beings that would covet them.I don't buy it for one second. Perhaps that's been put forward as an excuse, but the real reasons are sociological, not mythological.
He's actually referring to an interpretation of Christian theology. Revelations 12:4 IMO states that Satan and his followers were cast out of heaven. In Christian culture today, Satans followers are probably more referred to as demons and evil spirits more than Devils... but that's neither here nor there.
As for the other one, it's some obscure passages found in the Old Testament... Genesis I think.
IMO, the contractual and Lawful mentality of Devils stems from the Christian conception of Satan.
In LDS theology, Satan sought redemption for all man kind by suppressing agency and thus preserving perfection, but required glory for himself. Christ sought to save man from sins committed with agency, giving glory to the Father. Satan was cast down, and 1/3 of the host of heaven followed him. I think this interpretation meshes extremely well with the Asmodean setup. Ihys gave men will, and Asmodeus despised him because he saw humans as tools. Today, Asmodeus continues to see men as such, and thus he binds them to his will. Pleasure and sin have a price... Paizo describes Asmodeus as Lawful first and Evil second, the ladder being a product of his obsession with Law.
In the grand scheme of things,
Devils seek to simply bind Mortals to their will by enticing them with desirous rewards... that come at a hefty price.
Demons seek carnage and suffering. As James Jacobs described it, they feed on the sins of humanity. Destruction is a product of their desire for carnage and disorder.
Daemons seek to end humanity. As James Jacobs described it (more or less, see my link above), they focus on the ways that mortals die (thus the horsemen of the apocalypse). Their end is the end of mortality. They are much more pragmatic in their approach to the destruction of mortality.
Although at face value, there seems to be more in common with Demons and Daemons, Devils and Demons must at times join forces to battle Daemons to protect their ability to revel in mortality.
They're the original denizens of the Abyss, just like devils are the original denizens of Hell.
However, the qlippoths started experimenting with mortal souls merging them with the nature of the Abyss, and the experiment went a bit too well, so they faced a planar extinction-level event.
That's not quite true. It's the Daemons that (ironically) created the Demons. You got the rest of it right, though.
(The irony comes with the Daemons being associated with ending and undoing things, but being great at creation.)
the first devils were fallen celestials. the vast majority of devils are made from mortal souls.
i believe the first daemons was also a mortal soul that got lost in the afterworld.
The best conversation I've seen CLEARLY outlining the dichotomy between the three is HERE. This thread has some great guidance and commentary by James Jacobs in it.
@Thick: I would read Way of the Wicked books one and two. It describes the transformation of a tiefling ogre into a half-fiend. If I recall correctly, the transformation occurs when he drinks some unholy water in the vicinity of a very occult ritual that is being enacted.
Hey! I remember that thread!
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Where would I find these books? And really now, any race can produce a tiefling?
All the Ogres of the world are now offended. Why couldn't a fiend want to get it on with an Ogre.... huh, huh?
Seriously though, you could flavor any "touched" creature from paizo as having an origin in any base or advanced race, just that the bloodline made manifest.
As for the books, they are found here on the Paizo site... Fire Mountain Games I believe, Gary, one of the writers, is EXTREMELY active on the boards, and interacts with the community on a regular basis. I bet if you asked him about fiendish transformation on the board for book two he would answer you.
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the first devils were fallen celestials. the vast majority of devils are made from mortal souls.
i believe the first daemons was also a mortal soul that got lost in the afterworld.
Yes, and that raises a horrifying question. Just what evil and of what scale would a mortal need to do to trigger Abaddon's formation and daemons like the grain of sugar in a super saturated solution that triggers it all to fall out of solution, but with daemons rather than snowflakes of sugar?
There might be hints.
Creative Director
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Another thing to remember is that Demons and Devils thoroughly hate each other. They're fighting over the same souls, after all. Demons and Devils will fight each other at any opportunity. And they'll still work together and with Celestials as well for the sake of warding off a significant threat by Daemons.
Of course, from a "real language" standpoint, Daemon and Demon are just two different spellings of the same term; just like Faerie and Fairy or Magic, Magick, and Majick or Djini and Genie. But such differential spellings are often used to elicit subtle shades of meaning and further separated in a creative setting to establish two similar but fundamentally different concepts. Though, the idea that Devils far predate Demons is consistent with standard Judeo-Christian mythos on the matter, so there's that.
This is more how devils and demons work in D&D, where the Blood War is the defining thing about the lower planes.
There is no blood war in the Great Beyond. Devils and demons don't normally get along, but neither do they always fight against each other. A devil spotting a demon doesn't immediately drop everything and focus it's wrath on the demon, nor vice versa.
Devils and demons alike are MORE interesting as foes if they're not fighting each other, but instead are focusing their attentions on mortals.
And as for souls...
Devils want souls to come to Hell so they can keep the infernal machine and bureaucracy going—souls are Hell's fuel and economy.
Demons want SINFUL souls to go to the Abyss because once there, those souls can be transformed by the Abyss into new demons—souls are the Abyss's eggs and fertilizer.
Daemons want any soul because they eat them. They want all life to go away. Best case scenario is they eat the soul right there and then wherever they are when they find it. Souls they miss that end up going to Abaddon end up transforming into the Hunted, which are eventually eaten by daemons anyway.
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So daemons are more often out of the three to be the BBEG?
And what're are the... Goals, I suppose, of devils/demons? They just want more souls to make more devils/demons? But then what?
Again... souls aren't the driving goals for devils or demons.
Devils want to trick mortal life into being evil and doing their work and spreading Hell into new realms. Think of Hell as the most evil of any corporation ever, if you will, and its goal is utter domination of everything, and they want mortals to help them achieve this and willingly do so.
Demons want to cause misery, destruction, and despair, and if along they way they can tempt/lure mortals into committing horrific sins so that their souls will fuel more demons, that's fine... but that's a side effect of their goal to cause as much misery and pain and suffering as possible.
Daemons are probably the most simple of the three. They just want to eat all mortal life.
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Devils corrupt the mind, Demons desecrate the body, Daemons want to destroy all life, Demodands serve the Thanatotic Titans, Divs despoil the works of mortals, Asuras hate the gods, Rakshasa seek to control through their disguises, but are tied to our plane, and Oni adopt physical forms in our world, but are corrupted by ambition. Did I miss anything?What's the story with the qlippoth?They're the original denizens of the Abyss, just like devils are the original denizens of Hell.
However, the qlippoths started experimenting with mortal souls merging them with the nature of the Abyss, and the experiment went a bit too well, so they faced a planar extinction-level event.
NOTE: I'm answering these as I go, so it's possible someone might have ninjaed me.
Qlippoth are indeed the original denizens of the Abyss, and are probably the original denizens of anything/everything. They did not create demons, though.
In fact, qlippoth HATE demons; they see demons as an infestation. They were there first, and the Abyss is creating demons so fast now that they've displaced the qlippoth. The qlippoth want the Abyss back, but they cant' directly fight the demons with ease or efficiency, and so their goal is the destruction of anything mortal that has the capacity to sin. If they kill everything that's sentient, then there's no more sin flowing into the Abyss, and the qlippoth, who don't need sin to propegate quickly, can then besiege the demons and eventually win back their territories.