Yeah, but the way I read it is "+1 hit point AND +1 skill point, OR a favored class bonus (with no hit/skill point)." Which is to say, choose (A + B) or C.
After some further research, the guy who wrote the feat says the same thing.
Which stinks, because the feat now becomes a poor man's toughness. :(
EDIT: But wait, there's more! On the next page, the same person basically says "eh, that's what I intended, but the rules were different when I wrote the feat, so who knows?" The thread was marked as "answered in FAQ" but (as of the final post) no FAQ was available. I guess it's a GM call.
Wow. Well, I wouldn't have written the feat description that way, nor would I ever have guessed it was meant to be read that way. If that was the intent the last bit about alternate class rewards didn't even need to be in the description at all. Or could have been in a seperate sentence. Oh well. As a skill monkey feat it's ok but only because it leads into Improvisation and Improved Improvisation. I have very mixed feelings about it now, for a combat focused Rogue/Ninja I think the 1/6th new rogue talent far outweighs the benifits of that feat, unless you plan to take all three feats.
I did plan on taking at least Fast Learner and Improvisation.
I figured and it's going into the build suggestion.
And Shadow, I'm still waiting for that dual wielding human ninja build.
There should be a smiley face or a "jk" at the end of this sentence so I know it's not a demand.
Dual weilding with sneak attack it powerful. Honestly that and the crit fiend fighter are the only two reasons to dual wield that I know of.
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You are talking about DPS, or damage per second.
No one calculates damage per second in Pathfinder.
It is a pointless endeavor.
Most people calculate DPR, which is damage per round.
A round is six seconds.
To calculate DPS, you would need divide your damage dealt in a round, by six, to calculate an average of damage per second.
While I really like Improvisation and Improved Improvisation, I feel that the feats are really wasted on Ninja. Not counting Craft, Knowledge, Perform and Profession, there are 22 skills in the game. Of those, 16 are class skills for the ninja. (The ones that aren't are Fly, Handle Animal, Heal, Ride, Spellcraft and Survival). With an Int of 12, the skilled trait and the favored class bonus into skill points, you get 11 skill points per level already, and you most likely aren't going to be interested in the non-class skills anyway.
Of the skills that require subskills, the only ones you are likely going to want is Craft (Alchemy), Knowledge (Local) and maybe Knowledge (Nobility). Fortunately, these are also class skills. By keeping seven of your skills maxed, and dropping 1 point each into the other class skills plus the skills above, by 3rd level (the earliest you can get improved improvisation), you have at least a +4 in all class skills that don't have subskills, plus the other three.
Yes, you don't have the +4 bonus into the non-class skills or other subskill skills, but you also didn't have to spend 3 feats. And you still get 4 extra skill points per level after third level that you can use to pick up some of those if you really want, or improve some of the other skills instead.
Shadow lord, I shouldn't have too many problems getting into flanking position. The paladin is going to be tanky and the cleric will also be melee,capable. I know for a fact the cleric is an intelligent gamer who will assist me in getting into flanking position.
The build I was considering last night was:
Str: 11
Dex; 16 (+2 human)
Con: 13
Int: 11
Wis: 10
Cha: 14Feats: Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse
Traits: Reactionary, Merchant Family
Basically, with the anniversary edition they took the 3 campaign traits from the original and split them in half. Merchant Family gives you +10% sale price on loot and increases the GP limit of any settlement you visit by 20%.
Character is wearin Studded Leather armor for now and dual-wielding wakizashi.
I'm really not sure where to go with my feat selection from here, though. I just like this build because it feels more like a ninja than running around with a huge 2h sword.
Perhaps, I usually don't incorporate the printed flavor text into my characters. I would build my own character, concept, and story and just craft it around the mechanical frame of Ninja or whatever other class. But I will give it a shot here.
I should have added to point 1 in my last post to you that your friends need to be willing to actively help you flank AND it will also be extremely helpful if at least one of them is willing to take the Precise Strike and Outflanked teamwork feats with you.
Anyway, here we go.
....
Race: Human
1. Take the alternate racial trait: Focused Study in place of the 1st level bonus feat. This will get you a Skill Focus feat of your choice at levels 1, 8, and 16.
2. Take the alternate racial trait: Silver Tongued in place of Skilled. This gets you a +2 bonus on Diplomacy and Bluff checks. In addition, when they use Diplomacy to shift a creature's attitude, they can shift up to three steps up rather than just two. This will go well with the Skill Focus (Diplomacy) and Persuasive feats you will get later.
Class: Ninja
Traits:
1. Merchant Family
2. Reactionary: +2 Initiative
Consider replacing Reactionary with Black Sheep (Apothacary). It will get you some poison to start with and constant access to poison as long as you go to the same place to buy it. However, I'm not sure if your GM will let you take Black Sheep and Merchant Family.
Favored Class Bonus: +1HP/Skill Point per level. You take Fast Learner at lvl 1.
Stats:
1. STR: 10 (High STR does very little for you with this build)
2. DEX: 16 (+2 Human racial bonus = 18)
3. CON: 12
4. INT: 13
5. WIS: 10
6. CHA: 15 (You could switch CHA and INT depending on preferance)
Feats/Tricks/Ability Points:
1. Fast Learner. Skill Focus (Diplomacy).
2. Trick: Rogue Talent - Finesse Rogue.
3. Improvisation.
4. Ability Point: DEX. Trick: Vanishing Trick.
5. TWF.
6. Trick: Weapon Training.
7. Combat Expertise.
8. Ability Point: DEX. Trick: Rogue Talent - Combat Trick (Gang Up). Skill Focus (Perception).
9. Improved TWF.
10. Advanced Trick: Invisible Blade.
11. Improved Improvisation.
12. Ability Point: INT. Trick: Rogue Talent - Follow the Clues.
13. Persuasive.
14. Trick: Feat - Teamwork Feat (Outflanked) (Or Advanced RT - Unwitting Ally, if no one will teamwork with you).
15. Greater TWF.
16. Ability Point: CHA. Trick: Advanced Rogue Talent - Rumormonger. Skill Focus (Bluff).
17. Decietful.
18. Trick: Advanced Rogue Talent - Unwitting Ally (Take Assassinate or Ghost Step if you took Unwitting Ally at lvl 14).
With this build get the Menacing enchantment on one of your swords as soon as you can aford to.
1. Fast Learner. Skill Focus (Diplomacy).
2. Trick: Rogue Talent - Finesse Rogue.
3. Improvisation.
4. Ability Point: DEX. Trick: Vanishing Trick.
5. TWF.
6. Trick: Weapon Training.
7. Improved Improvisation.
8. Ability Point: DEX. Trick: Darkvision. Skill Focus (Perception).
9. Improved TWF.
10. Advanced Trick: Invisible Blade.
11. Improved Critical.
12. Ability Point: INT. Trick: Rogue Talent - Follow the Clues.
13. Persuasive.
14. Trick: Ghost Step.
15. Greater TWF.
16. Ability Point: CHA. Trick: Advanced Rogue Talent - Rumormonger. Skill Focus (Bluff or Intimidate).
17. Decietful (Or Skill Focus (Bluff or Intimidate, whichever you didn't take at lvl 16).
18. Trick: Assassinate (Or Unbound Steps).
This build would find the Ki Leech spell from Ultimate Magic to be very helpful in staying invisible almost indefinitely through combat.
I'm going to play a ninja in an upcoming AP.
Anything involving pizza delivery.... :D
Oh man I love that build Shadowlord. The only problem I can see Is I will be absolutely useless in combat at level 1.
Quite true, it's a good thing level one only lasts until level two. In it's defense this build does start to satisfy two of your three niches at level one. You can pretty effectively be a skill monkey with Fast Learner right off the bat and Skill Focus Diplomacy probably gives you a significant bonus on diplomacy over all other party members. Also, it's not TOTALLY useless in battle, you still have a 1d6 weapon that crits on an 18 or better plus the possibility of 1d6 Sneak Attack. You simply have no bonus to attack so what you get on the d20 is what you've got. Luckily nothing you should be fighting at level 1 should have much AC. Also you are still quite able to hit an enemy first round while they are flat-footed due to high Dex and Reactionary trait. Additionally, when you manage to flank you will get the +2 to hit. You may have a low-ish hit rate at level 1 but when you do hit you will likely kill something, and at level 2 you get a +5 to hit so this build really just takes a little time to grow into itself.
You mentioned Black Sheep campaign trait. Would it be worth swapping that out for Merchant Family, or is Merchant Family better than it seems to me?
Merchant family is probably better, I forgot both were Campaign Traits and you can only take one. I would rank them as Merchant Family, Favored Son/Daughter, then Black Sheep third.
I think I'll go the second route. The only change I'll make is maybe drop Cha to 14 so I can boost either Str or Wis to 12. I'm sure I can get help flanking, I but I don't know if the paladin or cleric will be able to sacrifice feats to help me out.
I tried to make your initial stats work well with the number of ability points you would get by lvl 18. I would leave CHA where it is, especially if you intend to go the second route as you will need a higher Ki pool even with the Ki Leech spell.
Additionally a 12 in either STR or WIS will be largely useless.
The 12 in STR is useless because it only grants you a +1 bonus hit until you reach level two and get Weapon Finesse, which will nullify that bonus. It also gives you a +1 to damage, which in the larger scheme of things means next to nothing also. You are doing 1d6 with your weapon, getting a possible crit on every roll of 18 or better for 2d6 and have a fair chance of Sneak Attack which brings your total possible damage, even at level 1, up to 3d6; a +1 (+2 if you crit) is just a drop in the bucket. Think of how much more useless it will be at level 18 when you are attacking 6 times a turn under greater invisibility with a weapon that crits on a 15 or better and 9d6 of Sneak Attack damage per hit.
The 12 in WIS is useless because it will only give you a +1 to a few of your key skills, Perception and Sense Motive, which you don't need as you will be getting feats to boost those skills anyway. Additionally it grants you a +1 to your Will saves but if that's all you're getting you should get it from a magic item later down the line. You could even trade the Reactionary trait for another trait that gives you a +1 to all Will saves or one that gives you a +2 to charm or compulsion Will saves. It just isn't really worth it to put your ability points there, IMO.
CHA is a Key Ability for this build, along with DEX.
By the time level 16 rolls around and I pump Cha to 16, I should be able to afford some magic item to raise it to 16 or maybe even 18.
True, but it's easier and cheaper to raise CHA from 16 to 18 than from 14 to 18. Plus you could spend that same ammount you would to rais it from 14 to 18 and instead raise it from 16 to 20. That will improve your Ki pool, your Assassinate DC, your "face of the party" status, and if you plan to put points into Use Magic Device will be quite valuable.
I appreciate all the help and I am anxious to see how you respond to my newest queries.
You are welcome. Ultimately the choice of how to build this character has to be yours and what you will enjoy playing. IMO Dex and Cha are the key abilities of this build and I just don't think a 12 in STR or WIS is worth dropping CHA to from 15 to 14 and not be able to get the CHA 16 from your ability point.
You know, I just realized how appropriate it is that someone named SHADOWLORD has been helping me so much on building a ninja.
Thanks, I try hard to live up to my name.
I see your point and I will leave the stat spread how you have it.
Last question. Should I maybe put the ability boost into charisma a little earlier so I get the +3 bonus and the extra ki point earlier?
Sure. The order I put your ability points is based on looking at it on paper. If "in play" you find you want your points to be placed in a different order to accomodate your style of play, go for it.
Oh and how does Ki Leech work? Do I have to have it on a wand or have someone else cast it on me?
Here's a link to the spell in PRD:
Ki LeechSchool necromancy [evil]; Level cleric 3, sorcerer/wizard 3, witch 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 minute/level (D)
You place your spirit in a receptive state so when you confirm a critical hit against a living enemy or reduce a living enemy to 0 or fewer hit points, you can steal some of that creature's ki. This replenishes 1 point of ki as long as you have at least 1 ki point in your ki pool. This does not allow you to exceed your ki pool's maximum. This ability does not stack with similar abilities (such as the steal ki ability of the hungry ghost monk).
This spell has no effect if you do not have a ki pool.
The range is personal so you will have to cast it on yourself, from a scroll or wand or some such. You could get a custom magic item or even try to get a custom enchantment on your swords if it's a home game, if it's PFS I would go with a wand or something and just pump up your UMD skill.
By the way, the 10/16/12/13/10/15 stat spread is too much for a 20-pt buy so I had to drop Cha to 14 after all.
Hmm, I was playing around with several things trying to get the right numbers, I must have mixed them up. I really thought I had them balanced before I posted the build, sorry about that. In this case you could put ability points in: CHA, CHA, DEX, DEX, and if you go to 20 you can put the last point in INT just to even it out.
You are welcome. The ninja tricks, and even to some extent, the feat selections are easily changable based on what you need when the dice start hitting the table. Concepts and pre-building are great, but if you find you have a major weakness in a particular Party or Campaign, then it could be time to deviate from the plan. The same can be said if you are TOO strong in a particular area, maybe you could put fewer resources toward that aspect and focus on some that are lacking. Good luck. If you have any other questions feel free to ask.
Meanwhile, I played my first ever PFS game today. (First Steps part 1.) I played a half-elven Ninja with an elven curve blade that will eventually be a Ninja/Scout Spring-Attacker. The table was all "you should really go two-weapon fighting." I was like "no, trust me, this is going to be awesome."
I killed three people today. Two of them were one-shots. I'm particularly proud of this, as I play a caster in my private group game and he's struggled to do damage for a long time. Finally getting into the stage where people are getting impressed occasionally, but it felt GREAT to one shot two characters with my curve-blade.
Hee hee! ^_^
Meanwhile, I played my first ever PFS game today. (First Steps part 1.) I played a half-elven Ninja with an elven curve blade that will eventually be a Ninja/Scout Spring-Attacker. The table was all "you should really go two-weapon fighting." I was like "no, trust me, this is going to be awesome."
I killed three people today. Two of them were one-shots. I'm particularly proud of this, as I play a caster in my private group game and he's struggled to do damage for a long time. Finally getting into the stage where people are getting impressed occasionally, but it felt GREAT to one shot two characters with my curve-blade.
Hee hee! ^_^
I'm glad you like it. A lot of people really love the TWF rogue builds. The possible damage output is really alluring. The problem with them is they take up a LOT of your character resources so it can be hard to balance. They also generally need more support than their single weapon counterparts. Most people disagree with me, but with the many rogues I have played and NPC'd my hands down best performers have been single weapon builds. The character I named this profile after was a single Shortsword wielding Rogue-ish character. I played him in my D&D 3.5 days, he put out absolutely disgusting damage, and he was the hardest character in the party to even hit, let alone kill. In PF my best Rogue PC so far has been a Scimitar weilding Dervish Dancer who went Shadowdancer at level 6 and was headed to being a Spring Attacker. In comparison, the TWF rogues I have played and NPC'd usually have a far harder time consistantly hitting anything with a good AC and I usually end up blowing most of my resources just building their combat aspect, leaving everything else lacking. That said, there are a few situations where I think a TWF build would be absolutely brutal. Most of them are based on a "dedicated" flanking partner who is willing and/or able to take teamwork feats with you.
...
In low to middle levels the half-elven curveblade wielding ninja build will REALLY shine, you should be able to equal or beat most damage anyone is putting out if you are getting Sneak Attack with your attack. As an added bonus you will be far more ellusive than most of your counterparts and should be taking far less damage over the course of a combat. At high levels you may see it start to fall behind a little. Your Sneak Attack damage gets higher, so you will still be dealing significant damage, but in the high levels you may not be able to keep up with, say, a fighter's full attack. Really though, at high levels you SHOULDN'T be able to deal as much damage with one attack as a fighter would with multiple attacks. You will, however, be able to go into greater invisibility at that point and do a full attack of your own with full Sneak Attack, and that will be pretty disgusting.
If you aren't worried about filling the "face of the party" or "Skill Monkey" rolls for your group, you can do several things to really increase the damage you are throwing out too. Also several things you might be able to do to increase the nasty effects that come with a single spring attack.
...
If you have any questions or want to work on a build let me know. I will need your current character sheet info. I will need to know if you are willing to multi-class or PrC. I will need to know what rolls you want to fill and what you want the character's theme to be.
Now you have me wanting to go the ECB route, Shadowlord. Would it be at all possible to go that route with a human without giving up too much? I have a concept for the character I'm going to play in RotRL and it almost has to be human.
I know I'm being fickle and changing my mind too much, but any help is greatly appreciated.
You mean like THIS ONE. Take another look at it and let me know what you like/dislike about it. When I get home today I will compare it with some of the other builds I posted and see if I can improve on it.
Well first of all, unless you'll never be on the front lines I'd bump that Con.
One of the key features of the build is to get an agile weapon. At that point, you don't NEED strength. (Though having a strength higher than 10 would still help you carry stuff, which matters if you're tracking encumbrance.)
Also, Wisdom as a dump stat isn't a good idea. The one thing that I've noticed even after one session with my ninja is that my Will save sucks. I'm going to have to free up two feats slots to help with that. Having a -3 ability modifier to Will is going to make you the mind controlled mook of your party.
It's also your perception stat, on a minor note.
Well I solidified my build. There are some things I'm not entirely happy with, but I didn't see any better move. Just a reminder- this is a Pathfinder Society character.
Half-Elf Ninja/Scout
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Faction: Sczarni
STR: 10
DEX: 18
CON: 13
INT: 12
WIS: 10
CHA: 14
Alternate Racial Trait: Ancestral Arms (Elven Curve Blade)
Trait: Elven Reflexes (+2 Initiative)
Trait: Bad Reputation (+2 Intimidate, Sczarni only)
1- F: Improved Initiative, Poison Use, SA 1d6
2- T: Rogue Talent: Finesse Rogue, Ki Pool
3- F: Combat Reflexes, No Trace +1, SA 2d6
4- T: Invisibility Trick, Scout's Charge (+1 CON)
5- F: Dodge, SA 3d6
6- T: Weapon Training (Elven Curve Blade), Light Steps, No Trace +2
7- F: Mobility, SA 4d6
8- T: Combat Trick: Spring Attack, Skirmisher (+1 DEX)
9- F: Iron Will, No Trace +3, SA 5d6
10- T: Invisible Blade
11- F: Improved Iron Will, SA 6d6
12- T: Asassinate, No Trace +4 (+1 DEX)
I originally had Weapon Finesse at level 1, but couldn't fit everything I wanted in so I had to move it to the level 2 trick and push Invisibility Trick back. The thought of going through level 1 without Weapon Finesse doesn't thrill me, so I'm going to keep WF for as long as I can before using the retraining rules to switch out Improved Initiative. On fast track, can I play all 3 and then retrain as I level up, or do I have to play the final adventure of level 1 with Improved Initiative?
I'm not happy with Iron Will and Improved Iron Will being so late, but I couldn't fit them in any earlier and I know that I need the help on my Will save. Frankly though, I'd prefer to use the slots for something else if I can come up with another fix for the Will save. I'll probably pick up a cloak of resistance either way.
Yeah, after I made that post I looked back through the thread and saw that. I like that build just fine, except for the stat spread. Would it kill me to go with 14/16/11/13/7/14? And does that add up to a 20-pt buy? I don't have access to the chart right now.
Yes that is 20 points. I would NEVER do that to my Will saves though. You already have Will as a low save with the Ninja class and you don't have traits to bump it up at all. You don't plan to take feats to bulster it. Do you really want to take a -2 penalty to all Will saves? I would strongly advise against stats like this, even as tempting as all those other high stats are, you will probably regret doing that to your Wisdom score.
And just get a feat that helps the sneak attack class feature or ninja power, or whatever it is called.
Well I solidified my build. There are some things I'm not entirely happy with, but I didn't see any better move. Just a reminder- this is a Pathfinder Society character.
Half-Elf Ninja/Scout
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Faction: SczarniSTR: 10
DEX: 18
CON: 13
INT: 12
WIS: 10
CHA: 14Alternate Racial Trait: Ancestral Arms (Elven Curve Blade)
Trait: Elven Reflexes (+2 Initiative)
Trait: Bad Reputation (+2 Intimidate, Sczarni only)1- F: Improved Initiative, Poison Use, SA 1d6
2- T: Rogue Talent: Finesse Rogue, Ki Pool
3- F: Combat Reflexes, No Trace +1, SA 2d6
4- T: Invisibility Trick, Scout's Charge (+1 CON)
5- F: Dodge, SA 3d6
6- T: Weapon Training (Elven Curve Blade), Light Steps, No Trace +2
7- F: Mobility, SA 4d6
8- T: Combat Trick: Spring Attack, Skirmisher (+1 DEX)
9- F: Iron Will, No Trace +3, SA 5d6
10- T: Invisible Blade
11- F: Improved Iron Will, SA 6d6
12- T: Asassinate, No Trace +4 (+1 DEX)I originally had Weapon Finesse at level 1, but couldn't fit everything I wanted in so I had to move it to the level 2 trick and push Invisibility Trick back. The thought of going through level 1 without Weapon Finesse doesn't thrill me, so I'm going to keep WF for as long as I can before using the retraining rules to switch out Improved Initiative. On fast track, can I play all 3 and then retrain as I level up, or do I have to play the final adventure of level 1 with Improved Initiative?
I'm not happy with Iron Will and Improved Iron Will being so late, but I couldn't fit them in any earlier and I know that I need the help on my Will save. Frankly though, I'd prefer to use the slots for something else if I can come up with another fix for the Will save. I'll probably pick up a cloak of resistance either way.
I am curious why you are taking Combat Reflexes.
When it comes to PFS stuff I am afraid I know next to nothing about how those games run so I can be of little help. But it seems like the others have got you covered on that front.
Iron Will and IIW: There are a few other things you could do to bump your will save and not blow two feats.
1. Consider replacing your Bad Reputation trait with one of the following:
2. Give yourself a +2 WIS item, that will give you a plus 1 to Will saves and Perception checks. A +4 would be good to if you can spare it.
3. The Cloak of Resistance is a good idea.
4. Consider scrolls, wands, or a custom magic item of Protection from Evil, it bumps your AC by +2 and gives you a +2 bonus to all saves against effects from evil creatures. Additionally you may make an additional Will save against charm or other mind control effects of evil creatures at a +2 on top of the +2 you already have. Protection from Law may be better if you run into more Neutral or Chaotic creatures than you do Evil creatures.
5. Iron Will is still a decent investment for a Rogue/Ninja. However, consider not taking Improved Iron will, if you have done a couple of the above you shouldn't have to worry nearly as much about Will saves. If you still do you might consider taking the Slippery Mind advanced rogue talent instead of IIW, although it only applies to mind control or compel will saves.
6. If you really still need IIW you don't HAVE to blow a feat slot, you can still take it with the feat advanced ninja trick.
Thank you for the trait suggestions. I think I like the increased defense better than a +2 to intimidate. Half of my reasoning was just to say "hey, I picked this faction for a reason" but it's probably not the best choice. And I think Indomitable Faith applies just as much flavoring to my particular character as Bad Reputation.
As to the rest, good thoughts! I'll be carefully considering the best option(s) for my Will save down the line.
Alright guys, I am sorry I haven't posted more but I just spent a great deal of time researching something and haven't been able to find any official answer.
So I will ask you both this. Have you asked your PFS or Homegame DMs if you can use the Scout Skirmisher ability with Spring Attack.
I ask this because there is a part of Skirmisher that is worded similarly to Vital Strike which was ruled incompatible with Spring Attack. I have found no such official rule concerning Skirmisher but I would hate for you guys to get to lvl 8 and have a DM say, "nope that doesn't work."
I will work on build stuff tomorrow. And keep looking for a better answer for this problem. I am hoping that PFS GMs are allowing it, I think most homegame GMs would probably allow it. I am hoping it's a case of poor choice of writing on the part of the Skirmisher ability.
If it does end up being a bust I will do my best to help you both fix the builds.
.... rats. :(
Yeah, I can't see any reason why they'd stack either. I think it's valid in a home game, but not for PFS. *Sigh*
So! Time to look at the next best build.
Can you get a second move action somehow? Perhaps with haste?
Move, standard attack, move?