Goblin Squad Member
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It is not possible to force players to be reliant on other players. All you can do is make it really irritating and frustrating for the "normal" players to be self-sufficient, which a surprising number of players seem to want.
Most of the players who are "casually" self-sufficient won't be making a negative impact on the "professional" crafters anyway. They're going to be players who dabble in that part of the game because they find it fun. They're not going to be devoting lots of time and effort to being great at it.
Nihimon, if you are saying you can’t force players to be reliant on other players in regards to they can always make alts, I agree with you. But they key difference here (with Destiny’s Twin) is you can have two characters raising at the same time, where with alts, you need to choose. I am fine with that “irritation”.
But you know, more than anyone, the game was originally designed for players to be reliant on other players, that is part of the whole point of PvP. You help me get this ingredient, and I can make this weapon/armor/magic item for you. However, but with Destiny’s Twin, it’s a way to partially bypass that.
I read somewhere that we can create bank account and determine who can handle it, so you could in theory let your twin to access it. In that way coin certainly will be shareable. And I bet itens too. Even if not, you could ask someone you trust to carry it and give your twin after you log it on.
Actually, if we will be able to log both twin and main char, as is said it may be, so you can trade anything from one to the other.
To be honest, I have no issue having the ability to share money/items between multiple characters, I would actually have been surprised if that did not happen. The problem is having both, being able to share money/equipment and the ability of everyone able to raise two characters at the same time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I feel part of the strength of the crafters is others to be reliant on them to make them the items they need, but if a lot have a ‘twin’ crafter, they will craft some of their own equipment and their will not be as much reliance.
This is the statement that originally raised a red flag for me.
It sounds like you want the game to be designed to promote interdependence on other players. I don't believe that's possible, because it's not possible for the game to identify the player behind the character. How can the system possibly differentiate between a "good" interdependence where my Wizard is dependent on your Crafter, and a "bad" interdependence where my Wizard is dependent on my own alt Crafter?
But they key difference here (with Destiny’s Twin) is you can have two characters raising at the same time, where with alts, you need to choose.
Everyone will always be able to raise two characters at the same time. Many will do so, and many of those won't be paying anything extra out of their pocket to do so.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Foscadh, I believe you are right. But in those cases people will need to pay extra (monthly) for that additional character training, where Destiny's Twin would be a one-time fee.
Sure, there will always be those who will pay the additional monthly fee to train more than one character, but for the most part, I think most would not want to double their monthly costs. Where with Destiny's Twin, I do think most would pay that one-time cost to raise two characters at once.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is the statement that originally raised a red flag for me.It sounds like you want the game to be designed to promote interdependence on other players. I don't believe that's possible, because it's not possible for the game to identify the player behind the character. How can the system possibly differentiate between a "good" interdependence where my Wizard is dependent on your Crafter, and a "bad" interdependence where my Wizard is dependent on my own alt Crafter?
I think the misunderstanding we have here is you are talking about raising an "alt" and I am talking about raising a "twin". From my understanding, they are not one in the same. An alt you need to make a choice, or pay more money to do both. As I said in my above post, there will be those who will do so, but I feel most will not want to pay double the monthly cost. However, they would be willing to make that one-time fee for Destiny's Twin.
Everyone will always be able to raise two characters at the same time. Many will do so, and many of those won't be paying anything extra out of their pocket to do so.
Please explain this, as I don't see how this will be the case? Did Ryan say you can make multiple characters (under the same account) and all will raise at the same time? From my understanding if you want more than one to raise, you need to pay for it. Otherwise, what would be the point of Destiny's Twin if you can raise another alt for free?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Please explain this, as I don't see how this will be the case? Did Ryan say you can make multiple characters (under the same account) and all will raise at the same time? From my understanding if you want more than one to raise, you need to pay for it. Otherwise, what would be the point of Destiny's Twin if you can raise another alt for free?
I hope you have to pay for each character. In fact, I hope players focus on one character, and develop those characters so they become a vital thread in the whole community-driven story. I realize folks want to try out different things, and that's fine, but I believe (in my experience) the very best communities are those where there are identifiable and long-lasting personalities. Do we want the very best sort of community? I sure hope so.
There are some players who are exceptions to the rule, but in order to have a fully-developed character who is truly a part of the fabric of the community takes time and dedication. If you are one of those exceptions, more power to you, but I don't think we should create systems that foster "alts" simply because a few exceptions can pull it off.
If people want to try out different things, why not just try it with one character? Sure they may not turn out to be "optimal" in the long-run, but they will sure be interesting characters.
As to reliance on other players, isn't that what the meta-point of PFO is? Meaningful interaction between players, a community driven environment. If we create and foster elements that are explicitly based on self-reliance, then we weaken the whole underlying vision of the game. As soon as we go that route, we might as well be making another solo-player game trying to act like mmorpg.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Players can have multiple alts, but except in the case of destiny's twin, each will have to purchase xp time and all will have to purchase skill training somehow, even 'destiny's twin'.
Another thing to note: Ryan recently said the exact nature of 'destiny's twin' is still being decided, it is 'nebulous'. It may end up that DT is rather different than we currently believe.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think we should create systems that foster "alts"...
How would you propose accomplishing this? Once you get into specifics, I think you will quickly realize that you're up against the same old "On the internet, no one knows you're a dog" problem.
There is simply no way for the system to know if that other characters is your main or my alt.
I would rather the devs focused on cool tools that allow for meaningful human interaction, rather than waste any time trying to social-engineer the players into playing a particular way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It sounds to me as if there will be a way to play for free, but I suspect the free character will be very limited if the player will not purchase experience-time.
If there is no way to accumulate xp except by purchasing premium time, then it will not matter a whit whether there is star metal on the market.
So it is reasonable, I think, to assume that purchased premium time will not be the only way to garner experience, since the game was offered as a variant on free-to-play.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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There will be alts. There will be alts. There will be alts.
Ergo there will be people playing a crafter making stuff for their fighter. It is inevitable.
Destiny's Twin is kind of a half-alt. Depending on the rules we write for it, it might behave just like a regular alt or it may have limitations. We haven't decided yet. Even if we let Destiny's Twin characters behave exactly like an alt, there's no benefit the Twin has that you can't get by just paying for a 2nd training character on your account.
Since we expect a lot of people to play alts, we are unlikely to extend Destiny's Twin as a promotion for any substantial amount of time, and if we extend it at all it will be mostly just to streamline some processes in the immediate post-KS fulfillment window.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I had figured there would be alts, and people would be able to make items for themselves. However, the question is do you spend your training time for your main, or spend it for your alt? At low skill levels you can do both, but when it takes 1 month to go from Blacksmith 7 to 8, will they want to take that training time out of their Fighter main?
From what I understood, you needed to pick one or the other, you couldn’t train for both (unless you paid more).
From how I read Destiny’s Twin is you were able to raise both your main (and an alt) at the same time skill-wise (without paying extra besides the initial DT cost). But if it doesn’t work that way, I am just fine with that. However, I think I am going to hold off any concerns or praise I have about DT until I hear exactly how it's going to work.
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Goblin Squad Member
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However, the question is do you spend your training time for your main, or spend it for your alt?
I think you're fixating on that choice. It won't be a big deal for most players. If they want a crafter alt, they'll make one. If they want it to train simultaneously with their main, they'll pay for it either with cash or with Coin.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think you're fixating on that choice. It won't be a big deal for most players. If they want a crafter alt, they'll make one. If they want it to train simultaneously with their main, they'll pay for it either with cash or with Coin.
The people who pay more money I have no issues with. They paid for their additional character to have the same training time and they have that right.
I agree with you in that there will be a lot of players having alts. And a lot of players will have both classed characters and Experts (crafters). But what my point was if a player does that, they will ‘not’ be as strong as a player who is a dedicated Classed/Expert character as they will be splitting their training time.
A lot of players will look at that month(s) of training time for their alt and say “Ok, I’ve had enough, this is taking too much time away from my main.” Or, they will raise both, and will be well behind the the person playing one character. Either of those paths I am completely ok with.
My original concern was raising in two roles (Classes, Experts or Commoners) at the same time through DT without having to pay extra for it (besides the original DT one-time cost). But as Ryan said, the specifics of DT hasn’t even been decided yet, so I’m not going to worry, or get excited about it, until it does.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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It seems like their is some objection to paying to train two characters at once. I don't understand that objection, particularly combined with a desire to spend a few thousand dollars buying Destiny's Twin.
I'm certain that there would not be a significant number of people who would buy Destiny's Twin at a fair price, despite the number of people who got it for about a penny on the dollar.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think we should create systems that foster "alts"...How would you propose accomplishing this? Once you get into specifics, I think you will quickly realize that you're up against the same old "On the internet, no one knows you're a dog" problem.
There is simply no way for the system to know if that other characters is your main or my alt.
I realize there will be alts. There is a difference between having alts and fostering them. What I don't want to see are systems that foster alts. For example, if the game systems end up creating a system whereby the only "crafters" are characters that we never really interact with because players see them as "alts," then I think this is bad for the community, and in turn bad for a game based on community.
The issue is not identifying what is an alt, the issue is whether the design supports a deep community based in character interaction. If it does, then it is most likely not fostering alt creation. PFO has already gone a long way to address this by supporting various design elements that support community and player-interaction.
I would rather the devs focused on cool tools that allow for meaningful human interaction, rather than waste any time trying to social-engineer the players into playing a particular way.
I am in 100% agreement, though social-engineering is precisely what we are doing in creating cool tools for meaningful human interaction. We certainly want to engineer the most fertile ground for meaningful human interaction.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The alignment and reputation systems are designed to encourage alts (so that low alignment/reputation characters can purchase/sell higher end goods). The settlement competition encourages alts (for espionage, and to expand settlement capabilities). The advancement system encourages alts (to diversify skills). This game will encourage alts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think you're fixating on that choice. It won't be a big deal for most players. If they want a crafter alt, they'll make one. If they want it to train simultaneously with their main, they'll pay for it either with cash or with Coin.The people who pay more money I have no issues with. They paid for their additional character to have the same training time and they have that right.
I agree with you in that there will be a lot of players having alts. And a lot of players will have both classed characters and Experts (crafters). But what my point was if a player does that, they will ‘not’ be as strong as a player who is a dedicated Classed/Expert character as they will be splitting their training time.
A lot of players will look at that month(s) of training time for their alt and say “Ok, I’ve had enough, this is taking too much time away from my main.” Or, they will raise both, and will be well behind the the person playing one character. Either of those paths I am completely ok with.
My original concern was raising in two roles (Classes, Experts or Commoners) at the same time through DT without having to pay extra for it (besides the original DT one-time cost). But as Ryan said, the specifics of DT hasn’t even been decided yet, so I’m not going to worry, or get excited about it, until it does.
Im not sure, but I think your going off a false premise. Your alts will gain skill point whether you play it or not. The only time you have to play it is if there is a quest you need to go on to pick up a skill or ability.
Crafter alts will of course need skills and abilities, but past that you only log them in to start off a project or check on projects going.
Past that alts will just gain xp to be spent whenever you feel like it.
Yes it will be more difficult to dual box in this game then others Ive played and dual boxed. So anyone with an alt will take time from their main regardless. That doesnt really matter though.
In a game like this, all you have is time. You cannot grind up skills, you have to wait for time to go by so you gain xp.
Whatever they do with DT is fine with me. Whether I get one or not, I will have 2 accounts. DT is just a bonus.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The advancement system encourages alts (to diversify skills). This game will encourage alts.
For me, the advancement system actually reduces the need to create alts. In a class-based game, if I don't like being a fighter, I have to make an alt mage. In PFO, if I don't like being a fighter, I stop training fighter skills and start training mage skills. I will be at least as good at being a mage as somebody that just started one, but I will also have your fighter skills to fall back on and have the use of my general skills (like hitpoints and threads) and equipment.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your alts will gain skill point whether you play it or not.
That's not how I understand it, I had thought you could only have one active character at a time? Active meaning only that one character is gaining xp to raise his skills.
If you can raise multiple characters at the same rate at the same time, I am not running off to quit, but I will have to seriously debate on whether I may want to play PFO. I will at least wait until I hear more detailed information on this will exactly work.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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@Hobbun - You can have as many characters gaining XP as you are willing to pay for.
This is not something really in our control.
If we said "one character gains XP at a time, period", all that would do is cause a lot of people to have more than one account. (This is that EVE has done, and it is why the average number of accounts controlled by EVE players is something like 2.5).
I think that's dumb. We get the same amount of money, but you get the hassle of managing two logins, two passwords, two payments etc.
So we'll let you get for as much parallel XP gain as you want to pay for, and avoid saddling you with the hassle.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Hobbun - You can have as many characters gaining XP as you are willing to pay for.
This is not something really in our control.
If we said "one character gains XP at a time, period", all that would do is cause a lot of people to have more than one account. (This is that EVE has done, and it is why the average number of accounts controlled by EVE players is something like 2.5).
I think that's dumb. We get the same amount of money, but you get the hassle of managing two logins, two passwords, two payments etc.
So we'll let you get for as much parallel XP gain as you want to pay for, and avoid saddling you with the hassle.
I think this makes sense as well, as it makes it easier to track unwanted behavior.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, I already understood that you will be able to have multiple characters gain XP if you pay extra for it, my discussion was in regards to paying for one account/character. As I said before, if there are those who want to pay extra for multiple characters, then they deserve to have multiple gain at the same time.
Where of course there will be people who will pay for more than one character, I don’t think it will be the majority. But then the next question is “how much?” I am hoping the added cost for each additional character is almost as much as one character, and not like $2-3 extra a month. If it is relatively inexpensive, then I feel there will be a ‘lot’ who have multiple characters gaining at once, and then my issue still stands.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, I already understood that you will be able to have multiple characters gain XP if you pay extra for it, my discussion was in regards to paying for one account/character. As I said before, if there are those who want to pay extra for multiple characters, then they deserve to have multiple gain at the same time.
Where of course there will be people who will pay for more than one character, I don’t think it will be the majority. But then the next question is “how much?” I am hoping the added cost for each additional character is almost as much as one character, and not like $2-3 extra a month. If it is relatively inexpensive, then I feel there will be a ‘lot’ who have multiple characters gaining at once, and then my issue still stands.
Each additional character training at the same time will be an additional $15. You can either directly buy that yourself from Goblinworks with real money, or buy it from another player(who bought that training time with real money) with in-game coin for a price set by the market.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to see the cost for training an additional character on my account be slightly less than the cost of training a character on a new account.
Training time is training time, the cost should not matter if it is for a second character or a new one on an account. If it does, it is only devaluing the cost of buying training in the in-game marker; anyone who sells training time will buy it using the cheaper price.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Training time is training time...
I understand that, and realize that I am not likely to see what I would like to see, but still I would like to see it.
It would be trivial to discount training time for additional characters on the same account, and make a 100-hour training kit last for 105 hours.
[Edit] The discount would apply to duration not cost, and would be applied at redemption not purchase, and would require additional training characters on the same account.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Each additional character training at the same time will be an additional $15. You can either directly buy that yourself from Goblinworks with real money, or buy it from another player(who bought that training time with real money) with in-game coin for a price set by the market.
Ok, good. I’m glad it will at least cost the same for each character you want to train.
Although not sure how the in-game money will work, meaning, how easy will it be to attain it. But then if it’s set by the market, then hopefully the market sets it at a price where it isn’t much more beneficial and easier to go through in-game money than buying it with real money.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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We would be fools(*) to offer discounted training for people with multiple characters. And we're not fools.
(*) EVE runs a variety of promotions designed to give people an economic incentive to start a 2nd account, on the theory that they'll like it so much they'll keep paying full price once the promotion ends. That's not foolish.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We would be fools(*) to offer discounted training for people with multiple characters. And we're not fools.
For my part, I was only looking for enough of a discount to make creating a new character on your existing account an obviously more attractive option than creating a new character on a new account. That is, as long as you were only concerned with price, and not insulating yourself from repercussions.
I suppose as long as it's not cheaper to start a new character on a new account, I'll be happy.
I really haven't fully processed all the implications of being able to simultaneously log in more than one character from a single account, so some of my older ideas might need to be updated...
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Goblin Squad Member
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We would be fools(*) to offer discounted training for people with multiple characters. And we're not fools.
Ryan, I've been thinking about this - as I'm wont to do when I'm corrected - and trying to make sense of it.
If it's rephrased as giving a "customer loyalty" discount to customers who are verifiably already giving you some money, I don't understand why it would be foolish.
For example, let's say it takes $15/mo for a single character to train, and you let that customer train a second character for $14/mo as long as they also maintained their $15/mo subscription on the first character.
Or if it takes $15 to buy a 28-day training package, and you made the training package last 29 days as long as the same account already maintained another training package or subscription.
I like to think I have a fairly reasonable understanding of retail, but maybe there are nuances that I don't understand in this case because I'm familiar with actual physical retail stores for bulky items like beds and tables.
At any rate, I'd be interested to hear what you have to say if you're interested in responding and it's not too complicated to really explain in a forum post.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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We would be fools(*) to offer discounted training for people with multiple characters. And we're not fools.
(*) EVE runs a variety of promotions designed to give people an economic incentive to start a 2nd account, on the theory that they'll like it so much they'll keep paying full price once the promotion ends. That's not foolish.
I don't have the numbers, but I think that the Laffer peak of the two-character account might be at a price point less than twice that of the single character account; there might be more than 1.5 times the number of players willing to pay an extra $10 for an extra character than those willing to pay an extra $15.
And the added income (if it exists) might not offset the cost of people sharing accounts and the associated headaches that would encourage. .
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CEO, Goblinworks
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My intuition is that price is not elastic for alts. That is, we would get no measurable increase in total revenue by discounting XP for alts so all we'd be doing is leaving money on the table. The price of this stuff is already so marginal that I don't think there's any meaningful sensitivity. $15 is just too little to matter to 99% of our target market.