Contributor
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Due to some combat maneuver shenanigans I pulled last night with my bard, I'm inspired to make a maneuver based character. I toyed with a few ideas, but I come back to a couple options. I'm interested in what people have done with maneuver-based-combat in PFS before and what they might recommend, as well as what they think of the following ideas.
First, a Halfling Underfoot Adept Maneuver Master. Normally halfling's -2 str and small size hurts, but Agile Maneuvers and Underfoot Trip make up for that. MM's ability to ignore prerequisites is huge, and UA makes for easy placement and tripping. I'd likely focus on Trip (into Ki Throw) and Dirty Trick, tripping on my regular attack and using FoM to blind / entangle / shaken / sicken them.
Second, Human Lore Warden. Full BAB, Maneuver Mastery, and Bred for War would be really nice. The bonus feats would open up a lot of options, but they don't ignore prerequisites which hurts a little. There's also no way to use standard maneuvers as attacks like MM does, which hurts a lot.
There's also a Half-Orc Breaker Barbarian with Gatecrasher that takes the Sunder line with Smash, Spell-Sunder, and Strength Surge, but it doesn't have the appeal of the other two as much. The idea of smashing a spell so hard it stops working is cool, but I'm not sure how effective it is in PFS.
Battle Oracle depending if you can take the Manuever Mastery revelation many times (Which I dont see why not). That way you get Improved and greater for free!(down the line). Did I mention no prerequisites?
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Contributor
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Battle Oracle depending if you can take the Manuever Mastery revelation many times (Which I dont see why not). That way you get Improved and greater for free!(down the line). Did I mention no prerequisites?
I did think about this option, but waiting until level 7 for a free feat is a long time in PFS. And as far as I know, you can't take it multiple times since it doesn't say you can (and PFS doesn't wave rules like that). For a home campaign, where the character could start at a higher level and take the revelation multiple times given an understanding GM, I'd love to run one.
Similarly, however, there is the maneuver Magus using Maneuver Mastery arcana, which can be taken multiple times. This also has the benefit of a couple bonus feats, a high Int requirement anyway (meaning Combat Expertise isn't a pain), and spells to help out. I hadn't considered that as an option while thinking about this character. Hmm...
Since PFS bans Synthesist, I would go with a Wildcaller Summoner and trick out your eidolon as much as possible with size, str, and reach. Give him trip, pull, and grab evolutions to chain off his attacks.
If you don't want to play a spellcaster, I guess Lore Warden Fighter or Lore Warden multiclassed with up to 6 levels in Maneuver Master Monk is the best route to go. Level 4 seems like a pretty good breakpoint, just before losing another BAB, though the level 5 ability is nice if you have good wis (not sure why you would when you can just wear armor, though).
Barbarian with rage cycling and Strength Surge and Knockdown/Knockback could also be good, but takes a lot of levels to achieve and really pay off.
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Contributor
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Elven Spire Defender Whip Magus X/Lore Warden Fighter 2-3 focusing on disarm/trip/serpent lash feat chains.
Gets to deliver touch at range and disarm/trip multiples for a single action, with bonuses and extra arcana.
I always liked the idea of a whip magus. I might have to consider combining the builds like this...
Also don't forget if you are using a light or finesseable weapon to do all of your maneuvers, then take weapon finesse instead of agile maneuvers.
Well, yes and no. If the build is all trips / disarms / sunders, yes, but officially those are the only three maneuvers where finesse counts. On the underfoot maneuver master I originally had finesse down instead, but since I'd want to use dirty trick a lot (which does not work with finesse) I would have to go with agile. However, this still works out as that character would probably just use ranged weapons or maneuvers, not melee attacks.
Since PFS bans Synthesist, I would go with a Wildcaller Summoner and trick out your eidolon as much as possible with size, str, and reach. Give him trip, pull, and grab evolutions to chain off his attacks.
If you don't want to play a spellcaster, I guess Lore Warden Fighter or Lore Warden multiclassed with up to 6 levels in Maneuver Master Monk is the best route to go. Level 4 seems like a pretty good breakpoint, just before losing another BAB, though the level 5 ability is nice if you have good wis (not sure why you would when you can just wear armor, though).
Barbarian with rage cycling and Strength Surge and Knockdown/Knockback could also be good, but takes a lot of levels to achieve and really pay off.
You know, I hadn't considered making a maneuver eidolon. And you're right, Wildcaller would fit it pretty well since the 'druid-eidolon' wouldn't have as many other tricks to draw upon. I really like that.
Yeah, rage cycles would be fun for this sort of thing. I played with the idea of a 1 level dip into Inquisitor for the healing (restoration) domain to remove fatigue 3+wis/day, but that would still take actions to do. Again, a good build for a home-campaign that starts at a higher level.
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Also don't forget if you are using a light or finesseable weapon to do all of your maneuvers, then take weapon finesse instead of agile maneuvers.Well, yes and no. If the build is all trips / disarms / sunders, yes, but officially those are the only three maneuvers where finesse counts.
I must admit I find that position confusing. In the FAQ posting where SKR details only these three maneuvers as being the ones to which Weapon Finesse applies, the rationale is because these are the only maneuvers which are (or can be) made using a (finesseable) weapon.
But from the core rulebook, unarmed attacks are treated as if made with a light (and thus finesseable) weapon. So why doesn't weapon finesse apply to all maneuvers, including those made without using a weapon?
But from the core rulebook, unarmed attacks are treated as if made with a light (and thus finesseable) weapon. So why doesn't weapon finesse apply to all maneuvers, including those made without using a weapon?
Because the game needs feat taxes to keep those powerful mundane characters with bonus feats from destroying game balance.
Seriously though, I've been saying this since the game came out. Agile Maneuvers has no reason to exist, Weapon Finesse should just apply to *all* finessable attacks, which includes combat maneuvers (and please don't argue with me about whether or not all of them are "finessable" - agile maneuvers proves they are). Thanks to most combat maneuvers having size restrictions on who you can use them on, the dex-based warrior is already pretty disenfranchised from the combat maneuver game as it is.
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I would think long and hard about the local play environment before I went down this path. If you are always going to have the same judge, who is familiar with combat maneuvers, then you're okay. But if you are like most of us who have a variety of GM's who vary in their knowledge of combat maneuvers, it's going to be painful for you, the other players and your GM.
And for the people who say that the GM needs to understand ever single possible tactic among thousands of pages of material allowed in PFS: I say that running PFS is not a job, I'm not getting paid for it, and if it becomes more agravating than fun, I won't judge.
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Most of the time (for me) it doesn't matter - the only combat maneuver my dex-based character uses much is trip, and that's definitely finesseable.
But I'm thinking about taking "Stand Still" as a feat, and it would be nice to know whether the (untyped) combat maneuver check called for can use DEX rather than STR
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But from the core rulebook, unarmed attacks are treated as if made with a light (and thus finesseable) weapon. So why doesn't weapon finesse apply to all maneuvers, including those made without using a weapon?Because the game needs feat taxes to keep those powerful mundane characters with bonus feats from destroying game balance.
Seriously though, I've been saying this since the game came out. Agile Maneuvers has no reason to exist, Weapon Finesse should just apply to *all* finessable attacks, which includes combat maneuvers (and please don't argue with me about whether or not all of them are "finessable" - agile maneuvers proves they are). Thanks to most combat maneuvers having size restrictions on who you can use them on, the dex-based warrior is already pretty disenfranchised from the combat maneuver game as it is.
** spoiler omitted **
So, are you saying you can only do combat maneuvers with either a high Strength or a high Dex and a Finesseable weapon is the only way to go?
I run a combat maneuver specialist in PFS, he is currently 9th level, and his primary weapon is a fauchard, which is a non-Finesseable polearm. He has a Str of 12, and a (current) Dex of 24. He has had Agile Maneuvers for most of his career, so he can use his Dex with his fauchard for combat maneuvers.
He only picked up Weapon Finesse, and an Agile rapier, at 9th level, so he has a damage dealing option. His primary tactic is to stand back and trip/disarm opponents.