@shadowlord: Very nice sir...your explanation was one of the best written and thought out ones I have read...granted my GM explained it to me with the same reasoning in like 5 sentences lol...but that should clear some things up for some
Edit:Just FYI if anyone wants to get around scent and tremorsense...check out trackless boots and boots of the soft step ;)
Thank you. I could probably explain it to most people in a less wordy fasion too, however, on the boards I tend to be long winded and attack an argument from every angle I can think of.
What would you do against a Ranger in his favored terrain? The Ranger's version is (Ex) and FAR more powerful than the (Su) version. What about the HiPS advanced rogue talent that is just like the Ranger version? The only thing you can do against those is hope for a good Perception roll, or hope you spontaneously gain Blindsight.I'm not sure about that either.
The Ranger/Rogue version of HiPS does not have the "can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind" part? It's just "can use the Stealth skill even while being observed."
Is it certain they're meant to work the same way?
I take it you didn't read about Camouflage, the ability that Rangers get a few levels before they get their version of HiPS.
Camouflage (Ex): A ranger of 12th level or higher can use the Stealth skill to hide in any of his favored terrains, even if the terrain doesn't grant cover or concealment.
Camouflage plus HiPS is the Ranger's full ability, and yes it does the exact same thing as Shadowdancer HiPS except it is far more dificult to deal with. They get it for several terrains, a smart Ranger could dominate 90% of a campaign by wisely picking his terrains, and his version of HiPS works in ANY lighting conditions.
....
Now for the Rogue Talent version. This is a tricky argument but bear with me. Read the Hellcat Stealth feat... It has almost the exact wording that the Rogue Talent has, which is the Ranger version of HiPS without the mention of the Camouflage abilities. I argued very hard against Hellcat Stealth granting FULL HiPS on the boards (like you are in this post), until the guy who actually wrote the feat came on and said it was supposed to work as FULL HiPS.
Now UC comes out with an Advanced Rogue Talent that has that exact same wording and I think to myself, I have seen this before, I thought it was a weaker version and the designer came on and said it was meant to be the same as any other FULL version of HiPS. In this case I am going with the trend set by my first run in with this and saying it's written that way for simplicity but is ALSO meant to be FULL HiPS. That is my opinion and it's based on my experience and my feelings on RAI, not RAW. Take it as you will.
That writer was Sean K Reynolds, by the way, you can read it for yourself HERE. This post should also effectively END the HiPS still uses the CONCEALMENT of the shadows that are 10' away argument. Designer saying, point blank, HiPS trumps the need for cover/concealment when using Stealth as long as you meet the requirement. In fact, I will just quote him here.
HS trumps the need for cover/concealment, but you have a penalty on the check. HIPS trumps the need for cover/concealment, but it requires a nearby shadow, and has no penalty.
The HS he is refering to is Hellcat Stealth, just to be clear.
To be even more clear, this was the question he was answering:
Questions regarding the feat Hellcat Stealth. Is this meant to work like the Hide in Plain Sight class feature? Do you need cover/concealment?
Considering it is meant to resemble the Hellcat special ability I almost want to treat it like invisibility only with stealth checks.
In all likelihood, the designers did not consider the ramifications of other types of vision.I cannot put enough exclamationmarks behind the word "Hah", so I won't try. "In all likelyhood" you have not bothered to read the many posts made in this thread, that carefully explains what is wrong with your ruling, in regards to the rules, or you would begin to realize that, maybe, the fault is not with the designers.
-Nearyn
+1
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Thanks for the help. I went back and found the playtest here which looks very promising. http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lcml&page=9?Stealth-Playtest-Round -TwoStealth#407
And James Jacobs response:
So to sum this up as best as I can understand it, logically you can infer from different conditions that being unobserved would deny an opponent their dexterity. Unfortunately nowhere in the rules does it come out and say that, so I strict reading of just playing by the rules would mean you can't get a sneak attack off by...This is the extent of it for now. We have no plans at this point to put it into the PRD or do much else with it at this point—feel free to use the variant rules of this playtest in your games as you wish... but it's not going to be something we officially adopt into the game, since that type of change goes from errata to re-design.
And the time for re-design is not now.
Right, They wanted to FAQ the rules to say that it did, but as the debate here shows, it wasn’t an easy change. So currently, under the RAW (or PFS), HiPS does not make your foe lose his DEX. The rules are pretty clear: " It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking..."
But your DM can easily decide to play it that way, it’s RAI, afterall.
I can not put enough emphasis on the fact that it is RAI. It has been RAI since D&D 3.5 and is unfortunate that they have yet to codify it into solid RAW. But there is enough RAI behind it to convince most people it is the way the game is supposed to be played. I've never had a DM that didn't allow SA damage from Stealth. Any DM who did gimp my Rogues like that and refused to be swayed by the massive ammounts of RAI and the designer push to get it codified in RAW is a DM I wouldn't game with for long.
THIS is what D&D 3.5 FAQ had to say about it.
If a rogue has successfully hidden behind some bushes and fires an arrow at a target less than 30 feet away from her, does she deal sneak attack damage?
Yes. The rules don’t come right out and say this, but a character who has successfully hidden from an opponent is considered invisible for the purpose of rendering that foe flatfooted, and thus deals sneak attack damage.
That paired with the push to have it written into PF RAW should be enough to convince someone IMO.
I have seen it said that the area of dim light required for HiPS must be a five ft square. But I cannot find anything that says so in the rules. Moreover, I have seen nothing that requires either LoS or LoE to the area of dim light, so long as it is within 10 ft. Thus ...
Buy a candle. Put it in a hooded lantern. Light it. It now sheds dim light. Close the hood on the lantern so no light can get in or out. Presumably a hooded lantern has a hole in the top or a baffle or chimney so that the light will not go out. Inside the lantern, it is dim. With no line of effect into the lantern, there is no way for light to enter the lantern and overpower the candle, so it remains dim in there.
Voila! You are "within 10 feet of an area of dim light" -- and you can hide in plain sight. You gotta carry the lantern around. Or get an unseen servant to carry it, or get your shadow companion an amulet of ghost touch so it can carry it around.
Alternately, cast Dancing Lantern on your Hooded Lantern, cast Darkness into it to change the light within from normal to dim, and close it up. Works even better since you do not need a hand free to carry it.
If you insist on the "dim light in a square space" idea, then on his home turf the Shadowdancer would place 5x5 barrels all over the place, with lighted candles in them, sealed except for baffled chimneys and airholes to let the candles burn.
That works, RAW, right?
Yeah, that seems pretty conclusive. I hadn't considered Camouflage in combination withe Ranger's HiPS and I wasn't aware of Sean's comment on HS.
I'm not sure I like it, but it does seem to be the intent.
Hmmm. Hellcat Stealth. Actually, I think I like the idea of being able to Stealth w/o cover/concealment with a penalty on the check. Does HS require Bright/normal light or will it work in dim light/darkness as well? If it's the first, can I carry the light? (No, but my friends can.)
Here is a copy/paste of the actual feat:
Hellcat Stealth
You are difficult to see in the light.
Prerequisites: Skill Focus (Stealth), Stealth 6 ranks.
Benefit: You may make Stealth checks in normal or
bright light even when observed, but at a –10 penalty.
Normal: You cannot make Stealth checks while observed.
Requires bright or normal light. HS does not work in dim light or darkness. I would stick to hiding in your friend's light; the last thing you want is someone guessing which square you are in based on the radius of the flickering torch-like light apparently coming from nowhere.
I have seen it said that the area of dim light required for HiPS must be a five ft square. But I cannot find anything that says so in the rules. Moreover, I have seen nothing that requires either LoS or LoE to the area of dim light, so long as it is within 10 ft. Thus ...
Buy a candle. Put it in a hooded lantern. Light it. It now sheds dim light. Close the hood on the lantern so no light can get in or out. Presumably a hooded lantern has a hole in the top or a baffle or chimney so that the light will not go out. Inside the lantern, it is dim. With no line of effect into the lantern, there is no way for light to enter the lantern and overpower the candle, so it remains dim in there.
Voila! You are "within 10 feet of an area of dim light" -- and you can hide in plain sight. You gotta carry the lantern around. Or get an unseen servant to carry it, or get your shadow companion an amulet of ghost touch so it can carry it around.
Alternately, cast Dancing Lantern on your Hooded Lantern, cast Darkness into it to change the light within from normal to dim, and close it up. Works even better since you do not need a hand free to carry it.
If you insist on the "dim light in a square space" idea, then on his home turf the Shadowdancer would place 5x5 barrels all over the place, with lighted candles in them, sealed except for baffled chimneys and airholes to let the candles burn.
That works, RAW, right?
There is no RAW indicating how large the "area of dim light" has to be. There is also no RAW indicating you must have LoS or LoE to that area. To my knowledge there is no PF or even D&D3.5 FAQ about it and I have never seen posts on the boards from designers answering either of those questions. Beyond that you will have to take it up with your own DM.
The general concensus that I have seen on the boards is that the area must be at least a 5' square. I would rule that the area should be at least as much as the creature using it occupies on the battle-map. Thus, a small or medium creature needs a 5' square. A creature that takes up a 10' square would need 10 square feet of dim light to use HiPS. And I would rule that you must have LoE, although I am not sure I would make someone have LoS. That is my opinion, take it as you will and consult your DM.
The general concensus that I have seen on the boards is that the area must be at least a 5' square. I would rule that the area should be at least as much as the creature using it occupies on the battle-map. Thus, a small or medium creature needs a 5' square. A creature that takes up a 10' square would need 10 square feet of dim light to use HiPS. And I would rule that you must have LoE, although I am not sure I would make someone have LoS. That is my opinion, take it as you will and consult your DM.
That's how you would house rule it, because the rules as written are too powerful?
Right, They wanted to FAQ the rules to say that it did, but as the debate here shows, it wasn’t an easy change. So currently, under the RAW (or PFS), HiPS does not make your foe lose his DEX. The rules are pretty clear: " It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking..."
But your DM can easily decide to play it that way, it’s RAI, afterall.
I can not put enough emphasis on the fact that it is RAI. It has been RAI since D&D 3.5 and is unfortunate that they have yet to codify it into solid RAW. But there is enough RAI behind it to convince most people it is the way the game is supposed to be played. I've never had a DM that didn't allow SA damage from Stealth. Any DM who did gimp my Rogues like that and refused to be swayed by the massive ammounts of RAI and the designer push to get it codified in RAW is a DM I wouldn't game with for long.
Well honestly I don't care about 3.5 as PF is quite different with Stealth and Perception , but as long as we agree it *is* RAI, and *not* RAW, I think we're good.
@ Komoda
Plenty of people are doing a fine job of arguing that light is in fact NOT subjective and that your opinion doesn't change the relevant RAW, but I will throw in my 2cp also. Keep in mind, HiPS isn't based on ANYONE'S PARCUTULAR PERCEPTION of the lighting conditions, it is based on the BASELINE LIGHTING CONDITIONS in the area regardless of who's percieving it or how they percieve it.
Light exists at a certain level whether you percieve it or not. A blind man can't see light but that doesn't mean the light ceases to exist, it only means his perception of it is changed. You give a soldier a pair of Night Vision Goggles and send him into the dark, he doesn't magically destroy the darkness. Darkness is still there, he simply has a means to alter his perception of it. Likewise you throw that same soldier into a bright room with his NVGs on and guess what, he will be blinded by the ammount of light he now percieves. Does it change the actual constant level of light in the room? No, he is just percieving it differently than with normal vision.
Likewise, two men walk into a room. One man sees a coatrack by the door, the other does not. The coatrack IS there, it is a fact, it is physically in the room whether you see it or not. The failure of one man to notice it does not unmake the existance of the coatrack.
Light and Vision are handled the same way in PF. Light levels are predetermined, solid tangible rules: Bright light, Normal light, Dim light, and Darkness. Each level has rules, each has specific perameters and they are written with NORMAL vision as the baseline for comparison. If you happen to have special vision... all that means is your perception of that same, unchanging, level of light is slightly different than someone elses. Even in the descriptions when an elf is near a torch the ruels don't say his vision extends the radius of light, they say HE can see twice as far with that ammount of light. Doesn't change the level of light, only changes what he can percieve with that level of light vs what a person with normal baseline vision can percieve.
My point has never actually been that darkvision sees through HiPS, though I can understand why it might appear that I meant that. I only suggest that the area of DIM LIGHT to a human may not be DIM LIGHT to an elf.
False. Dim light is ALWAYS dim light, regardless of a particular individual's perception of it. That is prety clear just from the description of the torch light in the vision and light section. It give you a solid baseline. The baseline doesn't change just because an elf is in the room, the only thing that's different is that particular individuals visual acuity within the CONSTANT, OBJECTIVE, light level.
Just as a human can make a stealth check 25' away from a torch that automatically fails against an elf because the human is not in DIM LIGHT as far as the elf is concerned, I feel that the human would automatically fail his HiPS stealth check against the elf at the same distance because he is still 15' away from DIM LIGHT as far as the elf is concerned.
I feel that if the human were 30' away from the torch he would be able to be successful in his HiPS stealth check against the elf because the human would be 10' away from DIM LIGHT as far as the elf is concerned. To be clear, if the human was 10' from any location that the elf perceived as DIM LIGHT, then I agree completely that the human could use HiPS to make a stealth check that he would not normally be able to make against an elf.
Really? Then show us by RAW where the elf's subjective visual acuity actually changes the objective light level in an area. One person's exceptional visual acuity DOES NOT change the constant light level. HiPS doesn't say you need to be within 10' of the percieved dim light in an area; it says you need to be within 10' of an area of dim light. Areas of dim light are based on the baseline rules of normal visual acuity. Bright light, normal light, dim light, and darkness; those are the levels and the baseline for them is normal vision. The edge of the baseline dim light condition doesn't move for the Elf just because he has lowlight vision. The dim light is still there, right where the baseline lighting conditions dictates it to be, and the Shadowdancer can use it regardless of how the elf percieves it.
Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.
Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.
I see nothing in there that indicates LLV or DV perceptions actually change the line where baseline lighting conditions say dim light or darkness begin. In fact, I have bolded several indications that LLV and DV perceptions DON'T change the actual baseline level of light in the area. It simply allows a character to percieve it differently. The dim light is still there and the Shadowdancer can still use it.
Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black-and-white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.
Again I bold this section. Against a person with normal vision I can use dim light to disappear into Stealth even if I am standing in bright light. If that is true, and DV clearly states it doesn't allow you to see anything you wouldn't be able to see otherwise (meaning doesn't allow you to see anything you wouldn't be able to see as if you were human in normal light conditions), then I can be standing inside your LLV or DV radius and disappear from view, within 10' of BASELINE dim light. It doesn't matter how the Elf or Dwarf percieve dim light or darkness, it only matters that the dim light or darkness are there, and they ARE. Your vision doesn't change that.
Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to him as a source of light.
Doesn't say the dim light goes away. It just says your eyes are sensitive enough that you can see twice as far as a person with normal vision regardless of the pressence of the dim light.
Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.
How would you justify this portion with HiPS? Following your logic elven, dwarven, and orcish society would be utterly void of Shadowdancers and Assassins because they would never be able to sneak up on anything without magic and if you need magic anyway why not go straight Rogue. If you were right why would an Elf in an elven society ever be a shadowdancer? Why would a Drow in the underdark ever be an Assassin? How about half-orcs in a tribal land of orcs? What about Dwarves who've never left their mountain homes? If I followed your logic no one can use HiPS against an elf outside on a moonlit night regardless of how far away they are. Not only does that not make sense, it contradicts a great deal of D&D and PF lore... to include the exerpt: -The confessions of a ressurected shadowdancer victim, which Nearyn posted HERE. Have you really thought this through? Because I would love to hear how you justify those far reaching remifications of your logic. It's basically calling every designer who ever made an NPC Drow Assassin in the Underdark an idiot who clearly doesn't know the rules of his own game. The list could go on.
Fortunately for Shadowdancers and Assassins everywhere, your interpretation of RAW is wrong. The Elf's vision dosn't change where dim light starts and all HiPS needs is the pressence of dim light, NOT FOR YOU TO PERCIEVE IT.
The above gives the human the advantage of HiPS without negating the elf's Low Light Vision. The human gains a benefit and the elf gains a benefit.
No one is negating the elf's LLV or the dwarf's DV. They can still see in dim light and darkness just fine, they just can't see the guy using HiPS, unless they make a good Perception check. Or employ one of the many other ways to defeat HiPS/Stealth.
To rule it another way simply negates the bonus of Low Light Vision. This is the core of why I don't think it works that way. There is nothing in HiPS that says one should negate that ability.
No it's not, and it happens to be following RAW.
I feel that HiPS DOES work against characters with Low Light Vision, it just doesn't work in exactly the same areas as it does against characters with normal vision.
As to darkvision, I would apply the rule the same way. That would in effect mean that the human could not use HiPS within 50' of a dwarf with 60' darkvision. The dwarf does not perceive anything within 60' as DIM LIGHT. So, assuming a torch 100' away, the first 60' is normal light, the next 20' is DIM LIGHT and the final 20' is Normal Light. The human could use HiPS anywhere from 50' to 90' away from the dwarf as that area would either be DIM LIGHT or 10' from DIM LIGHT.
So an elven shadowdancer walks into a tavern at night. The light level is dim with the exception of several lamps around the tavern. The tavern is full of humans, elves, and dwarves. If I followed your logic it would take me 30 minutes to figure out how to navigate this tavern floor using HiPS. I have to deal with my own elven LLV, my DV granted by the SD PrC (which basically means I would NEVER figure out where the BASELINE dim light is, unless you subscribe to hardcore meta-gaming), the vision of the other humans in the room, elves in the room, and dwarves in the room. Chances are the DM has only drawn areas of dim light based on BASELINE normal vision and BASELINE lighting effects. I guess I better break out a calculator and hope my party is really patient. Or I could just use RAW and navigate based on the BASELINE pressence of dim light in the area.
The same applies for invisibility. If the elf has true seeing, a human cannot be invisible as far as the elf is concerned. The human is still invisible, but the elf just ignores it.
Those aren't really the same thing, but yeah it's because that's what the description of True Sight explicitly states. What does the description of DV explicitly state? Well, it says I see in areas of dim light or darkness normally as if it were normal light, and it says I can't see anything I wouldn't be able to see otherwise... like a SD using HiPS/Stealth.
So the type of vision does not trump HiPS, I never meant that. I only meant that the type of vision sets the conditions for HiPS.
Nope, the conditions for HiPS are based on baseline lighting conditions. You are either within 10' of dim light or you are not; regardless of who's watching you.
To rule otherwise, I feel, would be to ignore any benefit given to special forms of vision, which again, I feel, is outside the scope of HiPS.
Firstly, NO, it isn't ignoring anything about special forms of vision. Secondly, you are condoning ignoring the benifits of a CHIEF offensive and defensive ability that is HARD EARNED by only four mainstream classes in the game.
...
How would you handle Hellcat Stealth (I posted a copy of the text up-thread if you need a referance) with that logic? Is the reverse true and I could hide from an Elf or Dwarf even further than I could from a Human? Actually, by your logic I could be in the PITCH BLACKNESS of a cave and hide from a dwarf or orc using Hellcat Stealth because they percieve it the same as normal light... Have I broken your game yet. How about using Hellcat Stealth to hide nearly ANYWHERE I WANT ANY TIME I WANT from an Elf? Bright light and normal light are explicitly covered by the feat. Now add that any time an elf is outdoors on a moonlit night they percieve it as normal light... meaning that is one UBERLY OVER POWERED FEAT.
Well to be clear there is no RAW that by shadows they mean dim light. They have said that this is how it should be interpreted, and how they described it I did get the impression that they meant a square of dim light. Perhaps you could search for where it is?There is no RAW indicating how large the "area of dim light" has to be.
You are correct. However, Shadowdancer doesn't say shadows, it says dim light. As for the assassin, shadows is a copy/paste oversight from 3.5 in the PF Assassin description of HiPS. It is meant to be the same as the Shadowdancer's and say dim light as well. That has been stated by designers on the forums. I forget which designer or which thread but I might be able to find it.
I may be repeating exactly what you are trying to say here... I'm tired and can't tell for sure.
There is also no RAW indicating you must have LoS or LoE to that area.You don't need LoS, but I think you can argue line of effect on general principles. You are gaining a magical effect, and those do require LoE I do believe (I could be wrong.. its been a LONG time since I've read those parts of the book).
-James
On this, I have no idea. I may look for it tomorrow. Seems familiar but I can't be sure.
Well honestly I don't care about 3.5 as PF is quite different with Stealth and Perception , but as long as we agree it *is* RAI, and *not* RAW, I think we're good.
True.
My opinion and feelings on the matter: A lot of people feel that way and completely disregard 3.5 contributions. Then again, PF would not exist if it weren't for 3.5 and there is the statement right on the pathfinder home page:
The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game puts you in the role of a brave adventurer fighting to survive in a world beset by magic and evil!
Take on the role of a canny fighter hacking through enemies with an enchanted sword, a powerful sorceress blessed with magic by the hint of demon blood in her veins, a wise cleric of gods benevolent or malign, a witty rogue ready to defuse even the deadliest of traps, or any of countless other heroes. The only limit is your imagination!
The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game is an evolution of the 3.5 rules set of the world's oldest fantasy roleplaying game, designed using the feedback of tens of thousands of gamers just like you. Players need only the single 576-page Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook to play, while the Game Master who controls the action will also want the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, a massive tome containing more than 350 fantastic foes for your adventurers to face. The Pathfinder RPG is a fully supported roleplaying game, with regularly released adventure modules, sourcebooks on the fantastic world of Golarion, and complete campaigns in the form of Pathfinder Adventure Paths like Council of Thieves and Kingmaker.
The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game has been designed with compatibility with previous editions in mind, so you'll be able to use your existing library of 3.5 products with minimal effort. In fact, the Pathfinder RPG is designed to smooth over a number of the rough spots in the 3.5 rules set, making several existing books even easier to use. On the other hand, the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game contains numerous additional options and exciting new takes on classic character classes and races, infusing the game with a level of excitement that will carry it years into the future.
Since Paizo released the first playtest documents in March of 2008, more than 50,000 gamers have downloaded the rules and posted their feedback, resulting in a year-long open playtest that was the largest in the history of tabletop roleplaying games. Going back to the beginning of third edition, the rules engine that powers the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game has enjoyed more than 10 years of active playtesting and revision, making it the most robust set of fantasy RPG rules ever published.
I only came to PF because it was an evolution of 3.5 and was backwards compatible. I didn't want to go to D&D 4th ED and if I have never discovered PF (Carying on the mantle of 3.5) I would still be playing D&D 3.5 rules.
For these reasons, if PF designers have explicitly ruled on something I follow it even if it contradicts old 3.5 rules. However, if PF has been silent, or if PF has spoken and 3.5 supports it, I will go back into 3.5 rules and FAQ to clarify PF discussions. After all PF is based on 3.5 rules. My 2cp, I know many others don't feel the same.
Ya know...this would be an awesome way to introduce a character to the shadowdancer class in your game...
"You are approached by a dark cloaked figure, when asked he says his name is "Shadowlord", he then goes on to explains to you how he can give you access to wonderful powers to wield and hide in the shadows (shadowdancer)...but anyways to my 2cp on the matter
Let's say DV really DID actually change the lighting, just for kicks, to see where the argument goes...so a character that PERCEIVES "normal light" within 60ft of themselves, therefore there is no "dim light" within that radius yes?
So with the above explanation of how DV works...then please explain, in the best way you can WHY THE HELL SHADOWDANCER GETS DARKVISION??
If we go by this off the wall idea that DV and LLV acutally change the lighting in the room since the "perceive" it that way then a level 2 shadowdancer would be SCREWED...talk about a class that exists for no reason...they basically lose out on 3 of their abilities if we go by this, first of which is HiPS, the other two being...
Shadow Jump (Su)
At 4th level, a shadowdancer gains the ability to travel between shadows as if by means of a dimension door spell. The limitation is that the magical transport must begin and end in an area with at least some dim light. A shadowdancer can jump up to a total of 40 feet each day in this way; this may be a single jump of 40 feet or four jumps of 10 feet each. Every two levels higher than 4th, the distance a shadowdancer can jump each day doubles (80 feet at 6th, 160 feet at 8th, and 320 feet at 10th). This amount can be split among many jumps, but each one, no matter how small, counts as a 10-foot increment.
Shadow Master (Su)
At 10th level, whenever a shadowdancer is in an area of dim light, she gains DR 10/— and a +2 luck bonus on all saving throws. In addition, whenever she successfully scores a critical hit against a foe who is in an area of dim light, that foe is blinded for 1d6 rounds.
Yea so again...if DV cancels "dim light" for the one perceiving it...then HOW THE HELL do they use these three abilities? PLEASE tell me
The general concensus that I have seen on the boards is that the area must be at least a 5' square. I would rule that the area should be at least as much as the creature using it occupies on the battle-map. Thus, a small or medium creature needs a 5' square. A creature that takes up a 10' square would need 10 square feet of dim light to use HiPS. And I would rule that you must have LoE, although I am not sure I would make someone have LoS. That is my opinion, take it as you will and consult your DM.That's how you would house rule it, because the rules as written are too powerful?
Like I said, it's my opinion. Even in a game with magic I like things to FEEL authentic. I FELL like what you are asking is meta-gaming and a bit munchkiny. I FEEL like someone who had these powers would find another way to deal with it. The many HiPS-rs I've played didn't care whether you could see the source of the dim light or not, it doesn't matter since you still can't actually see him, and chances are you wouldn't be alive long enough to do anything about the light source (or shadow source). It is how I would rule in order to get an authentic feeling, and based on my understanding of RAW/RAI, and based on my many debates about HiPS, vision, and lighting on the PF forums.
Ya know...this would be an awesome way to introduce a character to the shadowdancer class in your game...
"You are approached by a dark cloaked figure, when asked he says his name is "Shadowlord", he then goes on to explains to you how he can give you access to wonderful powers to wield and hide in the shadows (shadowdancer)...but anyways to my 2cp on the matter
Similar events have occured. The character this alias is based on was a 3.5 character of mine who got a simliar talk from Mask, the shadow god of Faerun campaign setting if you aren't familiar.
Let's say DV really DID actually change the lighting, just for kicks, to see where the argument goes...so a character that PERCEIVES "normal light" within 60ft of themselves, therefore there is no "dim light" within that radius yes?
So with the above explanation of how DV works...then please explain, in the best way you can WHY THE HELL SHADOWDANCER GETS DARKVISION??
If we go by this off the wall idea that DV and LLV acutally change the lighting in the room since the "perceive" it that way then a level 2 shadowdancer would be SCREWED...talk about a class that exists for no reason...they basically lose out on 3 of their abilities if we go by this, first of which is HiPS, the other two being...
Shadow Jump (Su)
At 4th level, a shadowdancer gains the ability to travel between shadows as if by means of a dimension door spell. The limitation is that the magical transport must begin and end in an area with at least some dim light. A shadowdancer can jump up to a total of 40 feet each day in this way; this may be a single jump of 40 feet or four jumps of 10 feet each. Every two levels higher than 4th, the distance a shadowdancer can jump each day doubles (80 feet at 6th, 160 feet at 8th, and 320 feet at 10th). This amount can be split among many jumps, but each one, no matter how small, counts as a 10-foot increment.
...Shadow Master (Su)
At 10th level, whenever a shadowdancer is in an area of dim light, she gains DR 10/— and a +2 luck bonus on all saving throws. In addition, whenever she successfully scores a critical hit against a foe who is in an area of dim light, that foe is blinded for 1d6
It's simple, they explain it by saying "oh, right... well, your own perceptions don't count..."
....
Additionally, by that logic, I think your shadow companion would cease to exist if it came within 60' of you and your all powerful Darkvision.
I like the idea of the Dancing Lantern with Darkness cast inside it. That makes it basically a dim light radiator. And since it is a hooded lantern, the hood can be closed -- but it is not water-tight or air-tight. Fresh air can get in, so maybe the shadowdancer can pull dim light out, even around the edges of the lantern's hood. When he wants to hide, the Shadowdancer *draws* shadow from the lantern, and it flows out like smoke to hide him. From a roleplay perspective, that works nicely, i think.
According to Komoda's argument a character with 10 levels in Shadowdancer would not be able to use HiPS, Shadow Jump, or his capstone ability Shadow Master EVER against an Elf, Dwarf, Orc or ANYTHING with special eyes.
Actually outside on a moonlit night the Shadowdancer wouldn't be able to use these things in like a 2 mile radius of an Elf, because they can see as if it were normal light outside under stars...
A Shadowdancer and his party are walking around at night in a sparse forest: "I want to teleport up to that tree limb to get a good vantage point of the area."
He teleports successfully and gets a good look around. Then he decides to teleport down and as he steps off the branch his magic fizzles and he falls face first into the ground.
"What happened?" askes his companions.
"There must be an elf approaching" the SD answers.
"How close?" ask his companions.
"No idea, could be anywhere in a mile or two radius, under the stars they can see as if the sun were out and brightly shining you know..."
Awesome... well, my game is broken.
Komoda: Shadowdancers get darkvision from level one. Does that mean they can never use their Hide in Plain Sight ability?
I think not.
If Komoda and others haven't figured it out by now, then they've always known, and are just trolling.
I very well may be 100% incorrect. But my disagreement with your position does not in anyway make me a troll.
According to Komoda's argument a character with 10 levels in Shadowdancer would not be able to use HiPS, Shadow Jump, or his capstone ability Shadow Master EVER against an Elf, Dwarf, Orc or ANYTHING with special eyes.
I never claimed this. I tried to point out specifically that I was not claiming this.
Komoda: Shadowdancers get darkvision from level one. Does that mean they can never use their Hide in Plain Sight ability?
This also is a false representation of my claim. It clearly shows that you do not understand my claim or that you have chosen to misrepresent it for your own pleasure.
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I very well may be 100% incorrect.
Admitting a problem is the first step.
But my disagreement with your position does not in anyway make me a troll.
Disagreeing doesn't make you a troll. Arguing as hard as you can with arguments based on RAW in a "Rules Questions" forum doesn't make you a troll. Continuing to ignore the RAW based, designer supported, arguments of others and continuing to support what has been proven on the forum to be wrong, even after your argument has imploded... makes you a troll. Continuing to post your opinion (houserules) as if they are RAW, or even remotely based on RAW, in other threads after being proven wrong... makes you a troll.
According to Komoda's argument a character with 10 levels in Shadowdancer would not be able to use HiPS, Shadow Jump, or his capstone ability Shadow Master EVER against an Elf, Dwarf, Orc or ANYTHING with special eyes.I never claimed this. I tried to point out specifically that I was not claiming this.
Really? Then what is your claim, because you are saying I can't use HiPS against an elf within his LLV range because the dim light isn't really there due to the vision of the elf. Well I need dim light to use Shadow Jump and Shadow Master too, but apparently it isn't really there because there's an elf nearby.
Either there IS dim light in the area for me to use (because it exists on a baseline level) or there ISN'T (because the elf's sight pushes it back), PICK ONE AND STICK WITH IT. I don't need your elf to see the shadows, I don't need to use the concealment of shadows, I just need them to physically be there. Either they are, or they aren't. You seem to be arguing really hard that they AREN'T there, and when someone calls you out on it you go back and say, "oh wait, that's not really what I meant."
This also is a false representation of my claim. It clearly shows that you do not understand my claim or that you have chosen to misrepresent it for your own pleasure.
What it clearly shows is that you have FAILED to properly explain your argument. If you did maybe you wouldn't be allegedly misinterpreted. It also shows that you have no RAW to support your argument or you would have posted it and it is much easier to battle with RAW than with your waivering opinions.
...
LLV and DV don't eliminate the dim light, it's still there you just see through it. What it eliminates is the benifit CONCEALMENT granted by dim light, that is why you can't normally hide near someone with this vision. S. K. Reynolds, a PF designer and someone who I would think knows the game far better than you do, stated HiPS trumps the need for CONCEALMENT or COVER when using Stealth. Which means... wait for it... I DON'T NEED YOU TO SEE THE DIM LIGHT. I JUST NEED IT TO EXIST IN THAT LOCATION, AND IT ABSOLUTELY DOES.
...
I am still waiting for an answer to the questions I posted dirrectly to you. How do you justify the Elf being able to see as if it were normal light during the night under a starlit sky with YOUR false interpretation of HiPS and lighting rules? And can a Hellcat Stealth-er hide in the middle of the night against an Elf since the Elf sees normal light and that is what the feat requires? Hey, light is subjective right? If you insist on sticking with your opinion than back it up. Make some sense of those cases, they don't cause a problem with the way I understand the rules, post some RAW and a solid opinion of how that is supposed to work in your game.
Either LLV and DV physically move the dim light/darkness, and phyically change the lighting conditions in the area, or they don't.
...
There is no shame in being wrong. The shame is in refusing to change when proven wrong and continuing to spread confusion... sometimes reffered to as trolling.
All examples assume wide open, flat areas with no cover or concealment. Which thereby would give no shadow, which has no bearing on the discussion as shadows are no longer part of the mechanic.
The Claims
Shadowlord - I hear you. But you haven't proven anything. Your assessment is that the elf's perception of DIM LIGHT doesn't matter. You haven't proven it. You have supported it, very well.
On the other hand, I haven't proven that it does matter. I have supported my position with the general rules of light and vision and stealth and I have applied them to HiPS by stating it does matter how the elf sees it. I accept that is not proof or enough support for you and have given credence to your argument as such. That is a healthy debate.
Your claim, which obviously is more popular, is that the state exists no matter what. My claim is that it is based on the viewer.
I may be wrong. I also admitted that. I didn't just keep posting it. I only tried to explain it more when I felt my claim was misrepresented.
In the case above, if one applied my claim, the human could use HiPS against an elf anywhere from 30' to 90' away from the torch. This is a lot more area than the 10' to 50' away from a torch that he could use it against a human. The part that I said was NOT my claim is that it could never be used against an elf.
The same goes for darkvision. I do believe it would be impossible to use HiPS, in this manner, within the 50' of Darkvision 60'. It could still be used outside of that if the DIM LIGHT condition existed. This IS DIFFERENT than stating HiPS never works against those with darkvision.
Other Feats and Spells
I never encountered Hellcat Stealth before this thread. Unfortunately, for this discussion, I joined the Navy 3 years ago and no longer play in a weekly game with my old crew that loved to debate rules. My only outlet for that is here. As such, I never saw that feat.
As I meant to imply before, which I may not have done well, I do not know how I would apply that feat. To apply the rules consistently, I guess I would allow it to apply to darkvision. I would surely allow it to work against an elf within the 40' range of a torch as without question the elf sees it as normal light. Without that feat, the character would not be able to stealth in this area against an elf as the elf would observe him. (This assumes no HiPS).
I really have no idea what I would do with Shadow Walk. I have never used that spell before and I haven't worked through all the options. Applying your claim to it would be the easiest way to adjudicate. Applying my way would make it different for each caster. That would seriously unlikely be the intention of the designers and is a great counter to my claim.
But that counter doesn't prove you are correct even if it does give you support. Support is not equal to proof.
Designer Commnets
As to your claim that HiPS trumps the need for concealment and cover, I totally agree with that and I always have. I just don't agree that this statement equals "I DON'T NEED YOU TO SEE THE DIM LIGHT. I JUST NEED IT TO EXIST IN THAT LOCATION, AND IT ABSOLUTELY DOES." I think it actually means, you don't need concealment or cover. It makes no mention of the actual state vs the perceived state of the observer.
In Game Extrapolation
In my opinion, I see the Shadowdancer as blending into or dissolving into shadows. If the Shadowdancer did that in an area the elf sees as not having shadow (25' away from a torch as Normal Light) it would be comparable to a sniper. A sniper wearing the proper clothing will be all but invisible standing, in plain sight, with a forest behind him. When he walks into the center of a mall, everyone sees him as the forest is not close enough for him to use his skill. Just as a person that is color blind will pick him out while he is standing in the forest in half a second because he doesn't blend in to the person that is color blind.
But all of that is in-game extrapolation of the mechanic, which has no bearing on the actual mechanic. It is just a way to try to justify it. Any mention of shadows is the same, as there is no mention of shadows, except the obviously left over "cannot... hide in her own shadow", in the skill anymore.
Trolling Other Threads
As to the other thread, I didn't start the dicussion or the idea whether the state was constant or based on the observer. SOMEONE ELSE DID. I clearly stated what I felt and stated that it was not the popular choice in this very thread. I did not link it to this thread because I was on a boat using my iPad.
That is the very opposite of being a troll. A troll looks to cause trouble. A troll tries to belittle people. A troll tries to overcome by posting over and over again. I only tried to post my claim more than once in this thread when I felt it was being misunderstood or when asked, like your post did, to explain myself.
Understanding RAW
As to RAW, we just don't agree. This is not uncommon or outrageous. The Second Amendment to the US Constitution is a prime example of misunderstood RAW: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
This is quite possibly the most misunderstood sentence ever written. I do not claim either side for the purpose of this thread, I only use it as an example of how one RAW has been debated for over 200 years and to this day is clearly still up for debate. 200 years of debate and the true meaning of this sentence is still trying to be understood. It doesn't mean either side is out of line in their understanding of it. It just means they don't agree.
RAW as Law
And if one were to go just by RAW and not RAI this can totally be broken, especially if we follow your claim and not mine. Cast permanent darkness on an rock. Take an everburning torch. Throw them both in the same backpack. You are always within 10' of a defined, no questions asked, source of DIM LIGHT. Even though no one can perceive it. It could be broad daylight 1000' in the air, no clouds and no shadows of any kind. Yet following RAW and applying your claim, the shadowdancer could hide from anyone.
That example is only to show that RAW isn't what we always go by, as much as people use that as a way to trump everything anyone says. I am sure that there are very few, if any, of us that think that RAW example should be allowed in play. I think it was even this thread where someone points out RAW stealth doesn't allow sneak attack to work even though that is clearly RAI. It might have been another thread in the last few days though.
Closing
I am not trying to be a jerk. I wouldn't have even posted here again if I wasn't asked to. I would have posted the time before that if I wasn't called a troll. You have your claim, I have mine. We disagree. So be it. But that disagreement does not equal me being a troll.
My Claim: The Black Dot in the bottom map [Low Light Vision] is not within 10' of DIM LIGHT therefore the Shadowdancer cannot use HiPS to hide from a character with Low Light Vision in that square.
facedesk...
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/thread
My Claim: The Black Dot in the bottom map [Low Light Vision] is not within 10' of DIM LIGHT therefore the Shadowdancer cannot use HiPS to hide from a character with Low Light Vision in that square.
I have no words...
@ Komoda
Fair enough, thank you for posting more detail. I will start working on my counter.
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Again I will ask...if "dim light" is based on perception ability and not actual lighting, then would a shadowdancer be able to use his abilities since his darkvision would negate "dim light" not only within 10 ft of him but within 60 ft as well, you cannot say that its based off perception and then say that its only "other people's" perception...please explain how you would allow a shadowdancer to work in your game
It says "area of dim light" not "source" there is no RAW for an "area of dim light", the closest thing I could find was
Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.
Based off that I think its safe to say that an "area" has to be at least a 5 ft square since everything(other than small objects of course) is basically measured by how many 5 ft squares it takes up
Everybody else - I was asked, again.
Drakkiel - Yes.
Each Viewer is Different-General Statment
The Shadowdancer's perception has nothing to do with his ability for him to use it against another creature. I find it unlikely that the Shadowdancer is using HiPS to hide from himself. It is not the mere presence of another type of vision that screws up HiPS (following my claim) but what the creature with enhanced vision sees.
Consider a wizard with two foes in a battle. One has see invisibility one doesn't. The wizard casts invisibility. One foe can see the wizard, one can't. Different vision, (this time magical) different outcome.
Each Viewer is Different-Normal Stealth (Basis for my claim)
In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat.
Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss
chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the
ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of
dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas
of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the
sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet
from a torch.
What I am saying is that that area that is 20' to 40' from a torch, which is DIM LIGHT to a human, has all of the effects listed in the quote above, when a human looks at it.
In that same area on a map an Elf does not see somewhat, but sees clearly. Creatures don't have concealment to the elf. The elf suffers no miss chance. Creatures cannot make NORMAL stealth checks to conceal themselves from the elf. This area is treated as NORMAL VISION to the elf.
The same area is treated completely differently[b] based on the type of vision the creature perceiving it has. (Basis of my claim)
[b]Each Viewer is Different-HiPS (My Claim)
Following my claim and applying it the same as normal stealth, the Shadowdancer (using the dot on my map) can make the stealth check. It would work against humans whether an elf was present or not. I am not saying that the human would see though the stealth just because an elf is present. The human gains no benefit from the elf. HiPS doesn't magically fail just because an elf is near. It just doesn't work on the elf, in that location.
That does NOT mean it doesn't work on the elf in any location. With the one torch example, I submit that the Shadowdancer would be able to use HiPS against an elf in more squares than he could use it against a human.
Against the human it would work in a ring 10' Diameter to 50' Diameter. These are all squares that the human sees as DIM LIGHT or within 10' of it. Approx. 75 squares.
Against the elf it would work in a ring 30' Diameter to 90' Diameter. These are all squares that the elf sees as DIM LIGHT or within 10' of it. Approx. 226 squares. That is A LOT MORE squares.
As to HiPS (Shadowdancer Version) and my claim, using my map as an example, a Shadowdancer in the dot is 25' away from DIM LIGHT, as an elf sees it. While a Shadowdancer is prancing around in what he thinks is the dark, the elf is laughing at him. To an elf, the shadowdancer is too far away from the DIM LIGHT to blend in.
Area vs. Source and RAW
I also agree that in most cases the "area" should be a 5' square or larger. My point was that by RAW there is no definition for area. An area can, by RAW, be any size or shape. Are you going to tell me that a diminutive shadowdancer in a 2' x 2' chimney that is encased in DIM LIGHT can't use HiPS because it is not 5' x 5'? We both know the answer to that is no. Of course we would let that work.
In my example in the post above you can replace "source" with "area" and it still stands per RAW.
Other Skills and Spells
I have decided how I would rule Shadow Walk, Shadow Master and the like. I would rule that their use is only based on the core lighting element of the area, not based on the observer. I know, how can I apply both? I would do so because in any other aspect other than HiPS, the effects are not opposed checks. There is nothing under LOW LIGHT VISION or DARKVISION that could or should hinder any effect that has nothing to due with vision or perception.
That should have been obvious to me before, but for the most part I have been on a boat posting messages between bouts of driving and I have never encounter those other skills before.
So is the shadowdancer within 10' of dim light or not?
Are you somehow claiming that he is AND isn't at the same time, and that it is based somehow on the observer?
Yes - Just as if you remove HiPS he can hide from a human because he is in DIM LIGHT and has concealment, but can't from an elf because he isn't in DIM LIGHT and doesn't have concealment. Two conditions, same time, same place, different observer. Nothing under LLV says he ignores concealment, ever. It says the light radius changes.
Do you have any rules quotes to back this up?Yes
Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.
For example 'treats as' rather than 'is' would go against this claim, right?
It doesn't say "As if it is double". Effective radius is 40' rather than 20' for a torch. It does not say you ignore the DIM LIGHT penalties in an area double the size of the light source. That would give your claim a lot of strength. It says that the effective area is doubled. It doesn't even say effectively doubled. It says "double the effective radius." The original effective radius is 20'. The new effective radius is 40'. To an elf, there is NO DIM LIGHT within that 40'.
If the effective radius of a fireball was doubled, we would all claim that it is 1d6 damage per level in a 40' radius.
Now if you have two elves together do they see farther than if just one were there? Doesn't each elf double the radius of light?
I never claimed anything of the sort. What are you talking about?
Lastly one does not use stealth 'against', but rather one gets to use stealth and some need to roll perception checks against it while others do not. Read the shadowdancer ability.. it does not need concealment, but just the presence of dim light. Not obscuring light.. but dim light. It is there, then it works.
Stealth is an opposed roll. I am sorry if the word "against" troubles you when referring to opposed rolls, but this is nothing new and, I believe, a commonly understood term.
I have never claimed that cover, concealment or obscuring light was required for HiPS. Just that there was no DIM LIGHT, as the elf sees it, within 10' of the black dot on my map.
Just like you can't hide with normal stealth 25' away from a torch when an elf is looking at you because the effective range of that torch is now 40' and the elf just laughs at you and shoots you in the face. Why is this the case if there is DIM LIGHT? The elf doesn't ever IGNORE DIM LIGHT. He just gets more benefit from ACTUAL LIGHT. There has to be ACTUAL LIGHT in that square, as he perceives it, for him to shoot you in the face.
At that same spot, as the elf sees it, you are 15' away from DIM LIGHT. There is no DIM LIGHT in his eyes for you to do anything with. Whether the in-game version is you call it around you, you meld into it, you phase into it, you darken into it or whatever, the elf can see you clearly and shoots you in the face.
1 elf or a million elves does not change the doubled 40' effective radius of the torch.
I have read the mechanic. It never states how the in-game part works.
I'm sorry.. but your claim is without foundation, and is simply wrong and baseless. There is an objective light level. You wish to claim that there is not. What support, if any do you have? I have seen none to date, what have I missed?
I have always stated I may be wrong. But there is no way it has no foundation. You may not agree with my foundation, but I have clearly shown how I applied the stealth rules and light rules consistently.
HiPS only gives the Shadowdancer a new trigger to try stealth. My claim is only that because the area on my map is NOT DIM LIGHT to an elf, or within 10' of it, HiPS doesn't work against him, just as normal stealth, at the same spot, for the same reason, doesn't work against him.
Let's look at NORMAL STEALTH, 25' away from a torch.
Can you stealth in that spot from a human? - Yes
Why? - Because you are in DIM LIGHT and therefore have concealment.
Can you stealth in that spot from an elf? - No.
Why? Because you don't have concealment.
Why, because an elf sees through concealment? - No, because the effective range of the torch is 40' and you are not in DIM LIGHT, as the elf sees it, so you cannot stealth from him, or he automatically perceives you, whichever wording you prefer.
So the elf does not see through DIM LIGHT? Correct.
There is nothing anywhere that says he sees though dim light? Correct - it states that the effective range of a light source is double to him.
So an elf does not ignore the penalties of dim light on a bright moon light night? Correct. The only benefit is that he could see twice as far, but would still suffer the penalties.
So the only real bonus is when there is a light source present. - Correct.
-----
Does anyone disagree with the above Q&A?
If you agree with the above, you have seen an instance where at the same time, at the same place, DIM LIGHT exists to one character and not to the other.
If you don't agree with the above, then we don't even see eye to eye on normal stealth rules.
While the above does not PROVE my claim, I accept that. It does, however, give a foundation, basis, credence or what have you, to the idea that DIM LIGHT can exist to one character and not another, at the same time, in the same place.
Now applied to HiPS - The elf would have NO BENEFIT under a moon light night. That is still perceived as DIM LIGHT to him. The only time LLV would help him and hurt the Shadowdancer is if there was a light source, which the elf would see as twice as wide as the human does.
LLV itself would not negate HiPS. LLV and a light source would, just as normal vision and a light source would. The elf just gets that benefit over a larger area.
Considering a normal torch:
Human auto-detect: 0-10' from the torch, not the human.
Elf auto-detect: 0-30' from the torch, not the elf.
So, all a Shadowdancer needs is a blind friend nearby?
I mean, if it all depends on who is nearby, and not actual light conditions, then it would work both ways. Right?
That is absolutely correct following my claim. If the Shadowdancer's friend was blind, the Shadowdancer could stealth FROM THE FRIEND at anytime but he doesn't need HiPS.
But the elf will still shoot him in the face.
You didn't answer all my question sir...what about the other abilities? If a there is never dim light within 10 ft of a shadowdancer because he has DV...then how does he shadow jump or gain DR from his capstone ability?
Drakkiel, yes I did:
Other Skills and Spells
I have decided how I would rule Shadow Walk, Shadow Master and the like. I would rule that their use is only based on the core lighting element of the area, not based on the observer. I know, how can I apply both? I would do so because in any other aspect other than HiPS, the effects are not opposed checks. There is nothing under LOW LIGHT VISION or DARKVISION that could or should hinder any effect that has nothing to due with vision or perception.That should have been obvious to me before, but for the most part I have been on a boat posting messages between bouts of driving and I have never encounter those other skills before.
I saw that...my point was how could you say that and still say that you make any sense...either the dim light is NOT there and the shadowdancer is a broken class which cannot use most of its abilities...or it IS there and all the abilities work
I don't care how YOU rule it...I'm asking you to show me the RAW...this isn't about any houserules or GM fiat stuff...we are talking about the RAW of stealth and HiPS...HiPS is a just like any other ability that changes how a general rule works...a shadowdancer HIDES IN PLAIN SIGHT...the light level in the spot the shadowdancer is in is IRRELEVANT as is who sees what around him...there IS dim light within 10ft...therefore the shadowdancer may attempt stealth even while people are looking straight at him...doesn't matter if its an elf or a half-orc...he disappears from sight
thats the RAW...nothing in the ability of HiPS does it say LLV or DV work against it...it says he can hide even while being observed and without ANY cover or ANY concealment
I can see that nothing is going to change your mind though...barring a dev sending you a personal letter stating so...I'm out of this fight because hopefully those that have had questions about HiPS now have their answers
James - I just read those spells. They have nothing to do with our situation. If they were in play, than a torch wouldn't do anything for the elf, but that has nothing to do with the discussion.
Trust me I read the light level information. As stated with the 2nd amendment argument, we just disagree as to the outcome.
It doesn't just say the elf "treats it as" you are adding that. It says that the "effective range" of the torch is double.
I agree with you about the blinded character. Either way you can use stealth against him. True, you cannot use HiPS. You don't need it. I was being completely satirical with BBT because he obviously did not read my posts if he thinks I feel it would affect the Shadowdancer that way.
"Against" vs. "just making a check" is purely semantics. They are the same thing. For it to work both have to roll or compare character abilities of some type (like vision types). One sets the target, the other tries to beat it. As they are opposed checks, you can call either one the target or the one trying to beat it. The roll is 100% useless without a character or creature to go against.
This is different than a normal skill DC like climbing a wall because the wall never gets the D20 randomness that happens when "going against" someone.
Auto success and/or Auto fail does not mean they are not against each other. You can automatically fail an attack. If you need magic to hit and you are using a normal toothpick, you automatically fail, even on a 20.
But our disagreement on "against" has nothing to do with my understanding of how stealth works.
Drakkiel - So I guess you don't agree with my Q&A on Normal Stealth and Human vs. Elf?
I said "I decided" because I clearly stated before that I didn't know what I would do. I don't rule that way because "I want to" I rule it because that is how I see RAW played out. Sorry if we disagree.
I COMPLETELY agree with it actually...but thats "normal" stealth...which is exactly what HiPS changes...the dim light is still there but to the elf it is not but thats EXCELLENT since it doesn't matter AT ALL how the elf sees it...the shadowdancer would still "disappear" just as well in front of the elf as well as the human
HiPS does not grant you concealment so that you can use stealth because of the dim light...the dim light only has to be within 10ft of you...if you are saying it does work using concealment then quote that part of RAW...it allows you to stealth even while that elf is thinking whether or not he likes your hairstyle, or thinks your cute, or wants to kill you...you disappear from his sight if your roll beats his period
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http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalRules.html#_vision-and-light
This thread made me wonder if I was playing light levels wrong. So I'm reading through the vision and light section.
It defines what situations have what light levels.
Areas of bright light include outside in direct sunshine and inside the area of a daylight spell.
Areas of normal light include underneath a forest canopy during the day, within 20 feet of a torch, and inside the area of a light spell.
Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.
Areas of darkness include an unlit dungeon chamber, most caverns, and outside on a cloudy, moonless night.
It then goes on to say how low-light vision and darkvision interact:
Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.
Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.
In both cases it talks about how characters with those abilities interact within areas of different kind of light. Nothing is mentioned that the kind of light level changes for them because they have that ability.
So for an elf in dim light, the dim light is still a dim light level, but can be twice as far from a light source as a character without low-light vision and still get it's benefits because that vision doubles the 'effective' radius of that light source. That is, the torch still only changes dim light to normal light in area between 20 and 40 feet from it, but the elf treats it as between 20-80 because she doubles the 'effective' radius. She's still in low-light, because she didn't actually double the torch's light.
Komoda:
You have two characters, a shadowdancer and a rogue. The rogue is in an area of dim illumination, just a few feet outside of normal lighting conditions. The shadowdancer, on the other hand, is five feet away and NOT in the area of dim illumination (standing in the normal light). Both are using stealth to hide (and in the case of the shadowdancer, hide in plain sight) getting impossibly high Stealth results on their checks.
A dwarf and elf guard come walking by the scene. They have no hope of beating the opposed Stealth checks. According to YOUR interpretation of the rules, who sees whom and why?
Hopefully, your response will help us better understand your position.
elf it is not but thats EXCELLENT since it doesn't matter AT ALL how the elf sees it...
So then this is the only part we don't agree on. That's it.
I feel that if you take away how the elf sees it, you are taking away an important benefit of being an elf without anything that ACTUALLY SAYS you take that benefit away.
You feel that DIM LIGHT exists no matter what the elf perceives, even though you agree that the fact when he perceives NO DIM LIGHT, that you state is actually there, it allows him to see through normal stealth in a square where a human could not.
We are not miles apart.