|
I know a lot of folks do not like the Magus. I saw one in lay last weekend and I really liked the combination of abilities in the class, so now I have to work on building one. (Please don't make this a flame on Magi until I get my questions answered--please?!)
My question is this: Does anyone have constructive suggestions for Feats and Traits for a Human Magus
STR 13
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 16
WIS 8
CHA 9
I am thinking Eschew Components and Extra Arcane Pool, with traits; Eyes and Ears of the City (Adds Perception as class skill), Secret of the Sphinx (Knowledge Local boost).
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
|
Welcome! Keen scimitars are on the rack to the left.
Weapon Finesse and Dervish Dance are the most common combo to work with. If you lower STR down to 13, then bring DEX up to 16 or 18, your DEX modifier becomes both your to-hit and your damage. Extra Arcane Pool is nice at later levels, but you won't be making a great deal of use from your pool points at level 1-2. Also, at later levels, improved critical is quite good. Eyes and Ears of the City is great for Perception, and you might want to consider something that adds another class skill - Acrobatics would probably be a good choice.
|
Ok, so this is just my opinion, I think that the Dervish Dance Magus is less effective than most people think. I believe a Strength build Magus is more effective.
If you were going Human I'd Suggest this stat build:
17
14
14
13
7
12
Level 1 Feats: Spell Focus: Evocation, Spell Specialization: Shocking Grasp.
Traits: Precocious Spellcaster (Shocking Grasp), Magical Linage (Shocking Grasp)
Level 2: Tatooed Sorceror Dragon Blood (Blue Dragon)<Very Important to learn both infernal healing and Shocking Grasp)
Level 3: Back to Magus, Intensify Spell.
<At this point you are doing Magus shocking grasps at 6d6+6 damage on top of whatever weapon attack you have, figure out what to do from here on your own, but I'd go for a spellstoring weapon so you can store Sorceror Shocking grasps (5d6+5) in your weapon, and unload them at a convenient time.
I think that the dervish dance magus has been overplayed, but so has the power attack fighter. I have a really great idea for a magus story, but I am afraid to join the club with the rest of them... If dervish dance only allowed other weapons...
|
Ok, so this is just my opinion, I think that the Dervish Dance Magus is less effective than most people think. I believe a Strength build Magus is more effective.
If you were going Human I'd Suggest this stat build:
17
14
14
13
7
12Level 1 Feats: Spell Focus: Evocation, Spell Specialization: Shocking Grasp.
Traits: Precocious Spellcaster (Shocking Grasp), Magical Linage (Shocking Grasp)Level 2: Tatooed Sorceror Dragon Blood (Blue Dragon)<Very Important to learn both infernal healing and Shocking Grasp)
Level 3: Back to Magus, Intensify Spell.
<At this point you are doing Magus shocking grasps at 6d6+6 damage on top of whatever weapon attack you have, figure out what to do from here on your own, but I'd go for a spellstoring weapon so you can store Sorceror Shocking grasps (5d6+5) in your weapon, and unload them at a convenient time.
The problem with your suggested build is that once you've blown through you 2-5 Shocking Grasps per day (at low levels, before you can get Spell Recall) you're a 3/4 BAB, d8 HP Fighter stuck wearing Light armor and without any of the Fighter's bonus feats or class abilities.
Sure, in a 15 minute adventuring day you can nova like crazy, but over the course of a couple hours of adventuring? Your AC will be low, you won't do terribly much damage outside of your few Shocking Grasps, and you'll be forced to conserve your resources like crazy.
|
|
Seranov,
OK I understand what you are saying - I make my employees do this and it gives me great ideas, and keeps complaints down - What would you suggest as a better solution?
Netopalis:
Dervish Dance:
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Perform (dance) 2 ranks, proficient with scimitar.
Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
Question - Why would I need Weapon Finesse WITH Dervish Dance? Are you thinking because of the limitation of a scimitar with Dervish Dance?
Altus Lucrim: I see what you are saying, that fits more with what I had in mind. I was keeping DEX higher to offset the light armor limitation. With Netopalis suggestions the strength would not be as important.
ALL: I understand it is my choice and "whatever you want to play"
and all that, but I am looking to mine the gold of the experience and ability of the players on this Message Board. Y'all have given me some great suggestions. I am not sure what to build, since I have never played a class like this. I have always stuck to the Fighter, Wizard, Thief (Rogue) and Cleric, so I am looking to branch out. What about combining Magus with another class - like a Rogue? The backstab ability could be a nice way to spike damage.
Question: Can other touch spells be cast along with Shocking Grasp? I am not saying swap out SG with something else, but can I use something as a back up to offset the "limitations" pointed out by Altus? Any thoughts on wht that might be - I have a couple ideas but I am away from my notes right now.
Thanks y'all for the help! It is great! Keep it coming, I am enjoying the dialogue.
|
|
I am staunchly in the camp of "build like a Fighter with good Int, because then, even when you're out of spells, you can still contribute with some Arcane Mark Spellstrikes (which is pretty much like having Monk FoB at low level, except you can wear armor and stuff).
You need Weapon Finesse for Dervish Dance because it's a feat tax. Getting Dex to damage AND hit with a Scimitar (which normally cannot be finessed at all) is pretty fantastic, and totally worth what you give up for it.
I'm personally a big fan of Strength builds, but I will not argue that Dexterity Magi have the upper hand at low levels. Using a Rapier until level 3, you've got the same to-hit as a Strength Magus, better AC, better Init, better Reflex saves, and slightly less base-line weapon damage (1d6+1 using a Rapier if you've got 13 Str, vs. 1d6+4 using a Scimitar with 18 Str, though you could use the Scimitar in two hands when not using Spell Combat to do 1d6+6 damage).
As far as multiclassing a Magus - you really shouldn't. You lose all-important caster levels and BAB if you don't for a full-BAB class, and these can severely impede your ability to do what a Magus does best: damage!
What about a flying talon? It doesn't do much for damage, but its a 1h reach weapon. It can save you on some squishiness, and combat casting.
i just build a STR lvl 5 magus 20 point buy giving up skiled and the bonus feat realy is nice for two +2 to INT and STR
ill try to find my build so you can see its a lvl 5 as it replaces my dead barbarian :-)
but dont forget a magus main stat is STR or DEX for a dervish not INT! you need to be able to hit as a magus and confirm those criticals!! as your main damage is from your critting shocking grasp
Male Human magus 5
LG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +5
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 18, touch 11, flat-footed 17 (+1 Dex)
hp 44 (5d10+10+5)
Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +4
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Attacks: scimitar +10/ 1d6+7(18-20 x2)
spellcombat with spellstrike: Shocking grasp +8/+8 5d6 +1d6+5 (18-20/x2)/1d6+5(18-20/x2)
--------------------
Magus arcana: Arcane Accuracy
--------------------
Statistics (+2 to two abilety scores Alt racial dual talented 20 point buy)
--------------------
Str 20, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 7
Base Atk +3; CMB +8; CMD 19
Feats improved initiative, weapon Focus Scimitar,combat casting, extra arcane pool
Traits Giant slayer(campaign), Magical Liniage
Languages: Common Giant Orc Infernal Sylvan
Equipment
+1 chain shirt
+1 scimitar
+1 Mithril buckler
Belt of giant Str +2
--------------------
spels known:
LVL1: Color Spray, Enlarge person, grease, obscuring mist, ray of enfebelment, reduce person, shield, Shocking grasp, Silent image, true strike, Vanish
LVL2:Bear's endurance, Frigid touch, Mirror image
Spells prepared:
lvl0: Detect magic, Ghost sound, Prestidigitation, Read magic
lvl1: Shocking grasp X3, True strike, Vanish
lvl2: Bear's endurence, Frigid touch, Mirror image
if I forgot to add anything let me know
lvl6:
magus arcana:empowered magic
lvl7 feat: Intensified Spell (Metamagic)
lvl8 point in cha so its not stupid low
The two typical magus builds are Strength or Dexterity. If you're a Strength magus, you pick up Power Attack and wail on enemies. If you're Dexterity, you take Weapon Finesse at 1st level and wield a rapier. Then, you take Dervish Dance at 3rd level and wield a scimitar for the rest of your career. In either case, you still want your damage stat to be the highest and wield a high crit weapon.
Dervish Dance build doesn't do as much consistent damage as Strength. However, you're harder to hit at earlier levels and you benefit from being less MAD. You can keep your Intelligence fairly high. A Strength magus, however, usually sets his Intelligence at 14.
You can spellstrike with any magus melee touch spell, but Shocking Grasp is the best one for raw damage. Though, I disagree with Atlus. I'm not crazy at the idea of multiclassing with magus because the magus's spell progression is already hurting.
About the only thing I can add is that Power Attack still works with Dervish Dance. My Inquisitor made good use of both. :)
I'm thinking of building a magnus for the first time too. I like the feel of the class but when looking at the mechanics I realized that I wasn't going to be able to make a magnus that did good HP damage without burning through a bunch of feats and a lot of resources in every fight. I also was having issues with the party role of the class. A magnus doesn't have the HP or AC to be a really effective tank and doesn't have the spell list or spell slots to be the primary caster, with that in mind I decided to instead focus on being more of a debuff/support character. Here's what I'm looking to build:
Male Human magus 4 20pt buy
Str: 10 Dex: 18 (+2 racial) Con: 13 Int: 16 (+1 lvl) Cha: 10 Wis: 10
Traits: Magical lineage (frostbite), Reactionary
lvl1: Magnus (1) spell combat, Feats: Rime Spell, Weapon Finesse (human)
lvl2: Magnus (2) spellstrike
lvl3: Magnus (3) Arcana: Wand wielder Feat: Enforcer
lvl4: Magnus (4) Spell Recall
Frostbite is a great spell, it causes fatigue (no save) and does 1d6 + 1/lvl of non lethal cold damage. Even better you get to use it once per caster level which extends your limited spell slots. Magical lineage and rime spell add the entangled condition to the spell for no lvl increase. Since the spell is a non lethal melee touch attack it also qualifies for the enforcer feat which allows a free intimidate check. That means by level 3 you can make a standard touch attack that fatigues, entangles, causes damage and has a decent chance of causing shaken. If you make the intimidate check that gives the enemy:
Half speed
no run/charge
-4 on attack rolls (total of -5 if str based and -7 if dex based)
-6 on Dex
-2 on Str
-2 saving throws
-2 skill checks
-2 ability checks
a DC 16 concentration check to cast
6.5 avg damage
Not bad for a first level spell slot. you could use spellstrike to add weapon damage to this as well but then you have to go against the normal AC not touch AC. I recommend not using spellstrike on the spell casting however if you have a full attack you can use the extra spell charge through your weapon using spell strike and add another 6.5 + weapon damage. Since you can hit with the spell first the second attack will have a much better chance to hit due to the Dex penalties.
I plan on taking 3 levels of rogue (thug) at this point to get brutal beating and sneak attack. I'll also pick up sap adept to add extra damage to the sneak attacks I make with frostbite. From there I'll continue to arcane trickster to advance both my sneak attack and spell casting.
With brutal beating, sneak attack and sap adept I'll be able to do:
Half speed
no run/charge
-6 on attack rolls (total of -7 if str based and -9 if dex based)
-2 damage
-6 on Dex
-2 on Str
-4 saving throws
-4 skill checks
-4 ability checks
a DC 16 concentration check to cast
13 avg damage (1d6+1/lvl, 1d6 sneak, 2 sap adept)
All off one charge of a 1st level spell slot!
|
|
Well, my personal opinion on the magus is that taking a single level of sorcerer can significantly increase damage output. The way my magus build works is to raise one's caster level as high as possible as quickly as possible and cast intense shocking grasps as frequently as possible, at early levels you lose out on AC, but as you level up you gain heavier armors, then dex becomes unnecessary.
|
You actually only need 1 level of thug, but you can use cruel enchantment on your weapon to give sicken on hit. Again arcane trickster needs 2d6 sneak so..or you could just get a cruel weapon and thug dip for 1 level.
You lose evasion though.
I do not understand why they state frostbite capable of triggering enforcer:
Enforcer:
Benefit: Whenever you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon, you can make an Intimidate check to demoralize your target as a free action. If you are successful, the target is shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt. If your attack was a critical hit, your target is frightened for 1 round with a successful Intimidate check, as well as being shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt.
It is stated there melee weapon, I dont think a spell/or even a spell channeled via spell strike applies as a melee weapon.
Also this FAQ:
Items as Spells: Does using a potion, scroll, staff, or wand count as "casting a spell" for purposes of feats and special abilities like Augment Summoning, Spell Focus, an evoker's ability to do extra damage with evocation spells, bloodline abilities, and so on?
No. Unless they specifically state otherwise, feats and abilities that modify spells you cast only affect actual spellcasting, not using magic items that emulate spellcasting or work like spellcasting.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9n9y
Frostbite would have to come from you yourself to be applicable for rime - which you have limited slots.
Not sure why you would take wand wielder for arcana except to give fatigue condition.
Though I think the master of debuffs magus style is the hexcrafter. You can really screw people up if you were doing a full defilier build with a cruel AMOF.
You actually only need 1 level of thug, but you can use cruel enchantment on your weapon to give sicken on hit. Again arcane trickster needs 2d6 sneak so..or you could just get a cruel weapon and thug dip for 1 level.
You lose evasion though.
I do not understand why they state frostbite capable of triggering enforcer:
Enforcer:
Benefit: Whenever you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon, you can make an Intimidate check to demoralize your target as a free action. If you are successful, the target is shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt. If your attack was a critical hit, your target is frightened for 1 round with a successful Intimidate check, as well as being shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt.
It is stated there melee weapon, I dont think a spell/or even a spell channeled via spell strike applies as a melee weapon.
Ray: Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?
Yes. (See also this FAQ item for a similar question about rays and weapon feats.)For example, a bard's inspire courage says it affects "weapon damage rolls," which is worded that way so don't try to add the bonus to a spell like fireball. However, rays are treated as weapons, whether they're from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source, so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls.
The same rule applies to weapon-like spells such as flame blade, mage's sword, and spiritual weapon--effects that affect weapons work on these spells.
—Sean K Reynolds, 07/29/11
If a ranged touch attack spell is a "weapon" for the purpose of feats I think it's difficult to argue that a melee touch attacks are not.
Also this FAQ:Items as Spells: Does using a potion, scroll, staff, or wand count as "casting a spell" for purposes of feats and special abilities like Augment Summoning, Spell Focus, an evoker's ability to do extra damage with evocation spells, bloodline abilities, and so on?
No. Unless they specifically state otherwise, feats and abilities that modify spells you cast only affect actual spellcasting, not using magic items that emulate spellcasting or work like spellcasting.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9n9y
Frostbite would have to come from you yourself to be applicable for rime - which you have limited slots.
Not sure why you would take wand wielder for arcana except to give fatigue condition.
You're right that a wand of frostbite wouldn't be usable with metamagic, the reason for the arcana is for using wands of vanish to set up sneak attacks or using a wand of true strike to hit high AC enemies. It also provides back up spells if I run out of slots. If I weren't planning on going trickster I would probably choose a different arcana.
Though I think the master of debuffs magus style is the hexcrafter. You can really screw people up if you were doing a full defilier build with a cruel AMOF.
I like the hexcrafter and if I were building a straight magnus i'd probably go that route, but since I want the rogue skills the hexes will always be weak and therefore not worth giving up spell recall.
alternatives to shocking grasp are frigid touch arcane mark and frostbite depending on what kind of thing you want to do
alternatives to shocking grasp are frigid touch arcane mark and frostbite depending on what kind of thing you want to do
and Brand if you're a hexcrafter
|
|
You actually only need 1 level of thug, but you can use cruel enchantment on your weapon to give sicken on hit. Again arcane trickster needs 2d6 sneak so..or you could just get a cruel weapon and thug dip for 1 level.
You lose evasion though.
I do not understand why they state frostbite capable of triggering enforcer:
Enforcer:
Benefit: Whenever you deal nonlethal damage with a melee weapon, you can make an Intimidate check to demoralize your target as a free action. If you are successful, the target is shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt. If your attack was a critical hit, your target is frightened for 1 round with a successful Intimidate check, as well as being shaken for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt.
It is stated there melee weapon, I dont think a spell/or even a spell channeled via spell strike applies as a melee weapon.
Ray: Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?
Yes. (See also this FAQ item for a similar question about rays and weapon feats.)For example, a bard's inspire courage says it affects "weapon damage rolls," which is worded that way so don't try to add the bonus to a spell like fireball. However, rays are treated as weapons, whether they're from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source, so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls.
The same rule applies to weapon-like spells such as flame blade, mage's sword, and spiritual weapon--effects that affect weapons work on these spells.
—Sean K Reynolds, 07/29/11
If a ranged touch attack spell is a "weapon" for the purpose of feats I think it's difficult to argue that a melee touch attacks are not.
...
Also this FAQ:Items as Spells: Does using a potion, scroll, staff, or wand count as "casting a spell" for purposes of feats and special abilities like Augment Summoning, Spell Focus, an evoker's ability to do extra damage with
I understand what you are trying to say here but must disagree. The ray is considered an actual weapon type but a ranged touch spell is not. They are 2 different things and have different rules on their use. Same with melee touch attacks, they are not considered weapons just a different kind of attack.
Unless you use the spellstrike ability or a natural attack to channel the spell through it will not cause Enforcer to activate.Believe me, I did enough research on this exact same issue when I was designing the Defiler Magus & Fear-Bomb Natural Ranger build.
|
|
alternatives to shocking grasp are frigid touch arcane mark and frostbite depending on what kind of thing you want to doArcane Mark!!????? HUH?
Some might argue that it is a bit tacky. The idea is that Arcane Mark is a touch spell, so you can use it with spellstrike and thus get a free melee attack to deliver the spell. Granted, if the hit is successful, the spell adds no damage. Arcane Mark is a cantrip, so you can keep using it.
yeah its two weapon fighting for free if you get combat casting its an auto sucseed so in the early lvls its pritty hard!
Some might argue that it is a bit tacky. The idea is that Arcane Mark is a touch spell, so you can use it with spellstrike and thus get a free melee attack to deliver the spell. Granted, if the hit is successful, the spell adds no damage. Arcane Mark is a cantrip, so you can keep using it.alternatives to shocking grasp are frigid touch arcane mark and frostbite depending on what kind of thing you want to doArcane Mark!!????? HUH?
So it's basically free TWFing?
exept that if you got TWF you get more feats on it :-) but at low lvls its alot of a difrence :-)
hehe i dont think so :-) not that bad with a bladebound lvl 5 magus who can add int to his to hit :-) getting around a +13 to atack rols :-)
arcane accuracy but i was mistaken! i meant arcane pool to add +2 or keen and +1
so it would be
20STR (belt of giant STR) (+5)
bladebound scimitar +2
weapon focus scimitar +1
BAB +3
arcane pool +1 and keen
spellcombat -2
so a grand total of +10 to hit when i get tot lvl 6 i can add +4 (18 int)with arcane accuracy
and that is without splls like bull's str or enlarge person wich i can easily cast