Aasimar as is (in the Bestiary) are good but not jaw-droppingly awesome. Fast forward to the Advance Race Guide. Cherry pick racial traits. Slobber all over those nice Aasimar-only feats.
With the ARG Aasimar became worth those 15 RP in spades. Because of the ARG I consider it a fair trade to dock 5 points from the point buy.
Aasimaar, even in the ARG, aren't worth the 15 RP or a 5 point buy docking. even a trait docking
the feat taxes are just that, feat taxes. and the only wortwhile one grants gimped flight
the alternate racials are generally highly specialized.
scion of humanity removes the benefits of being an outsider
the resistances lose usefulness by level 2, maybe 3 or 4.
the only unique trait is 2 +2 with no -2. which isn't that powerful because it only serves to mitigate your dump stat, which you clearly dumped to gain an advantage elsewhere.
I disagree, and here's why.
Deathless Spirit: ignores hp loss from enervation, being brought back from dead, etc *and* resist negative energy 5 *and* a +2 racial bonus to resist death attacks, energy drain, negative energy and all necromancy magic - that's a trade up in my book. There's no item or wand I know of that provides negative energy resistance and the (ex) abilities that come from swapping out the "meh" energy resistances with the bonuses and resistance provided by this one racial trait. This one trait gives you stuff nothing can take away unless it kills you - in which case, they get your stuff and eat your corpse anyway.
Halo is more situational but has its uses, as does Scion of Humanity - which only trades out the Celestial language in exchange for the aasimar not needing to blend in. Considering you can get that language right back from a 12 INT bonus or 1 rank of Linguistics, being able to blend in has its uses depending on the campaign.
The favored class benefit for an aasimar paladin is nasty - at level six the auras' morale bonus goes from +4 to +5 - to +6 at 12th, to +7 at 18th. That's REALLY nice and is unmatched by anything else in the game that I'm aware of. The celestial bloodline sorcerer gets super nasty too with the +1/4th CL on [good] spells - free spell penetration anyone? Able to exceed outsiders' HD relative to CR more often than not? Yes please!
Feat "taxes" are paid to do something that can be argued as something that should be inclusive in the system as I understand it: Agile Maneuvers, Defensive Combat Training, Weapon Finesse are three feat taxes off the top of my head. The fly movement mode for most playable races is generally not considered a given excepting the strix. I most definitely agree that the angelic blood/skin/wings feats are "meh" or "bleah".
However ...
Channel Force, Improved Channel Force and Greater Channel Force are rockingly nice feats making an aasimar cleric or Life oracle a more fearsome foe. Added bonus for being able to knock the mummy into a pit, pull foes closer to your paladin / fighter / other melee buddies and so on and so on. They are well worth picking up immediately after the entire chain of Heavenly Radiance feats - leaving the aasimar cleric/oracle with his 17th and 19th level feats to pick up something suitably nasty.
The Heavenly Radiance feats that let you pile up several SLA's/day (in addition to whatever your class goodies let you do) into an SLA *pool* - the top end of which garners a sunbeam SLA at *9th* level. I don't know of anything or anyone else as a PC that can pick up an SLA that is otherwise exclusive to 13th+ level druids/clerics of the Sun domain four levels early.
At 9th level you can fire off six (6) sunbeams per day packing a DC of 20 with a mere 17 Cha - that's plenty respectable even at 15th level, and any headband bonus to the Charisma score is more than sufficient to meet the requirement. A CR 12 purple worm has a paltry +8 Reflex bonus. A CR 12 roper has a pathetic +5 Reflex bonus. And a CR 12 monster is considered an 'epic' fight for a 9th level party - not so much against this aasimar.
Yeah that's pretty good if you're fighting a single target.
Of course, you're only getting 6 sunbeams if you take the Feat 5 times, so you'd have to take that Feat every level to get that at level 9, so hope you don't need anything else.
Dunno. That extra skill point Humans get is easily bested by any race that gets +2 Intelligence. That just leaves humans with the extra feat.
I think I'd rather get racial bonuses that match my goals for my character, than a measly feat.
Dwarves are okay, especially now that they get +2 Wisdom, but they are nothing special. They make okay Druids, but I wouldn't recommend them for Clerics because of the Charisma penalty.
Never liked aasimar for Paladins, as they used to be pointed toward. They make better Clerics. That is where I disagree with Lumiere and co.
The energy resistances were a bit much, along with not having a racial penalty to an attribute compared to the other races. So they are a mite overpowered, but not to the point where I would ban them.
a human can also get +2 intelligence, and the bonus skill point. without a constitution penalty. unlike the elf or sylph, putting the human a hit point and skill point per level ahead of them
a human can trade their bonus for for free skill focus at levels 1, 8, 15. and every 7 levels after. effectively multiplying their bonus feats by at least 2 if they ever planned to take skill focus
or the human can complete a feat chain 2 levels earlier.
Meh. Just gimme a race that grants +2 Int, and I get everything a human could get and more. A feat, just ONE feat, means all of nothing. I don't believe in feat chains, if only because they end up hosing you over in the lower levels when they aren't complete. You people don't plan ANY of your PC's responsively to the game environment, do you?
You come up with these mega feat chains designed to make your PC invincible, and then you whine when you get your butts kicked by something tiny like a saving throw. Meanwhile mine romp through EVERYTHING the DM can throw at them, without giving a damn.
What happens when you don't have enough feats because your level is too low, and you can't complete your combo of doom? Or if you find out that your PC is so combat orientated that they can't do a damn thing outside of a fight, or if you get hosed over by a measly pit trap?
Those are all 'kinda handy to have' things Turin, nothing outstanding. I'd still take Human over that more often than not.
Ironically, for Way of the Wicked, a Human Cleric (favored class option: +1 to beat outsiders' SR per level) is the way to go. If you can get a 'team cleric' thing going with Repose domain access, they're going to school those demons.
Aasimar Paladin with Deathless Spirit, the aura bump FC bonus and the aforementioned Heavenly Radiance feat chain is the cleric's buddy. Those 6 sunbeams a day came in awfully handy during my playtests.
Yeah that's pretty good if you're fighting a single target.
Of course, you're only getting 6 sunbeams if you take the Feat 5 times, so you'd have to take that Feat every level to get that at level 9, so hope you don't need anything else.
sunbeam is a 60-foot line. A well-placed wall from one of the other PCs can set this up to maximum advantage very quickly.
:)
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The extra feat granted by being human counts for a lot. I can take Iron Will or a similar feat to boost my saves and still have as many feats as anyone else. I can use powerful abilities like Thunder and Fang fully three levels ahead of any other player. I can do virtually anything a same level character of a different race can do, plus something else. Feats are not measly, they're the backbone of what makes a character work. As an archer I can be exactly as good as most any other archer, but be making an extra attack at level 1. As a Cleric, I can take Guided Hand and Channel Smite right off the bat and be able to be a better healer and fighter for my party, right off the bat. As a side effect of that, I'll probably have better saves too.
You cannot overestimate how much that extra feat can impact the effectiveness of your character or performance over the entire course of a game.
I found the Blood of Angels book was what made Aasimars overpowered imho. Not the ARG.
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so you think Aasimaars are OP because they can minmax one series of numbers? try reflecting on your encounters and seeing the downside of an aasimaar.
you blow several feats, to get an evocation spell, 6 times a day. i laugh at that being overpowered. what happens when you used up your 6 sunbeams?
deathless spirit? so you get to ignore the HP penalty for negative levels, they still give you -1 to every d20 roll per negative level, and you can still die from them. and how often will the DM enervation bomb the aasimaar?
aura bump? yay, +2 to numbers i don't care about
+1/2 level to 1 revelation? 15d6 channel? mass heal is much better at that point.
and feat chains? most feats have prerequisite feats. try slogging 2 extra levels to get the prerequisites.
though the game isn't entirely combat, combat eats up 75% of the spotlight.
and not counting specific poorly designed modules, the aasimaar bonuses are highly more situational.
i'd prefer that human oracle with the extra spell known per level, the 1-3 extra feats the aasimaar doesn't have, the extra skill ranks the aasimaar doesn't have, and the subtlety the aasimaar doesn't have.
aasimaars draw too much attention.
if you never bother to invest in the feat chains, you will never get the capstone feature of the chain. the good feats, have requirements. humans have an easier time meeting those requirements.
3 extra feats? where? I see one extra feat. EDIT: Ah, the trio of Skill Focus feats.
Humans have always had an easier time dealing with feat-intenstive anything.
Humans can't get darkvision at 1st level.
Humans - if they are clerics expecting anything other than outsiders - are inferior clerics to an aasimar.
Aasimar have access to two feat chains that nothing else can get that are pretty formidable. This is a 'development line of thought' in PF that is irksome to some as no one else can access the aasimar's unique feat chains. (I am not familiar with the teifling's stuff so there may be similar feat chains for them.)
Racial heritage won't do it, unlike the other humanoid-exclusive feat chains for dwarf, half-orc/orc, ad nauseam. An aasimar if they wanted can select racial heritage and pick up any one of the humanoid races' feat chains if they so desire. The reverse does not apply.
You may not care about the auras' increased strength - others do. That doesn't make that bonus less valuable.
though the game isn't entirely combat, combat eats up 75% of the spotlight.and not counting specific poorly designed modules, the aasimaar bonuses are highly more situational.
i'd prefer that human oracle with the extra spell known per level, the 1-3 extra feats the aasimaar doesn't have, the extra skill ranks the aasimaar doesn't have, and the subtlety the aasimaar doesn't have.
aasimaars draw too much attention.
if you never bother to invest in the feat chains, you will never get the capstone feature of the chain. the good feats, have requirements. humans have an easier time meeting those requirements.
Actually, I find that there is at least ONE major fight in each game session. That's something I don't like as a GM, because eventually you just fight to fight. This is why Pathfinder is not my favorite game system.
Again, I don't find the skill bonuses situational at all. Getting a bennie to Diplomacy is ALWAYS handy, as being able to negotiate well with NPC's is always a plus. A bonus to Perception is used so often in PF it's not even funny anymore. Combine that with darkvision, and you get a lot of use out of those little features. That doesn't mean aasimar are overpowered just because of this, but it DOES blow the measly human +1 skill point per level and feat out of the water.
In fact, I haven't had anyone play a straight up human in a LOOOOOOONG time. They just aren't much fun from a mechanical perspective, I guess.
Those feat chains? Yeah, they are still in use, but most of the time in my games, players have bigger priorities, like say staying alive. For the first 5-6 levels at minimum, players tend to select defensive feats. Popular ones include the saving throw bumps for the poor class saves, Improved Initiative, Dodge, etc.
I think the reason why is that in the low levels, players seem to want to know that they can't be caught with their proverbial pants down. Weapon Focus is nice, but it also ties you down to a specific weapon. You never know when you are going to encounter a decent enchanted weapon in the early levels, so it's nice to be able to sell your favored 2 handed sword for that really neato Sun (bastard) Sword you just found.
Thus, feat chains only come into play once the group gets into the teens. Doing that sooner tends to be suicidal when you spend most of your time dungeon crawling etc. I dunno about you guys, but Pathfinder is a LOT harder than some silly videogame FPS. Death rate is correspondingly higher, as well.
I honestly don't see them as all that bad, even with blood of angels and the arg their are few instances where I would take them over the core races. As far as I am concerned, they are good, but not great choices which is just fine by me.
Humans - if they are clerics expecting anything other than outsiders - are inferior clerics to an aasimar.
Inferior caster/healbot clerics, sure, aasimars are a bit better than humans for sure. Battle clerics? Humans win. 18 strength (while only paying for a 16), a decent score in in wis,con, and a non dump in cha, the extra feat is hard to use lvl 1, but its not impossible. The extra skill points without having to waste points in Int is also nice since clerics are starved for skills.
Also Piccolo: Your experience with PF is much different than mine and I suspect many others. You might have a killer GM who runs with significantly higher CRs than recommended. Or your group isn't offensively minded enough to end encounters quickly so you have to fall back on defensive strategies. Either way many people have found that an offensively oriented group with good buffing and control works much better and contributes more efficiently to party success than a defensive attrition group that focuses on not getting hurt while wearing down the enemy. As for feat chains? Most of the ones you commonly seen taken are a one two punch kind of thing. Prereq (which often isn't terrible in its own right) with unlock feat (the payoff). Often some of the keystone feats open a ton of possibilities (power attack, any martial strength build should have this). The only improved saves I ever seen taken by good builds (both organic and templated "net builds") is iron will since its by far the most important. As for death and dying, at high level being dead is a minor inconvenience. Drag the corpse to the bag, bring bag to cleric, cleric casts raise dead and then removes some neg levels. Not a big deal. Uses up some gold and that is that. Or the party buries him with honors (or kicks him into a shallow grave depending on party) and the player rolls up a new guy. And that sun blade? Most parties will sell loot they can't or don't want to use. A sun blade is over priced and will net a good amount of gold.
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Thus, feat chains only come into play once the group gets into the teens. Doing that sooner tends to be suicidal when you spend most of your time dungeon crawling etc.
And now we've figured out the thread. You aren't playing the same game most of us are.
My level two human fighter using Thunder and Fang to Two-Weapon Fight with an Earthbreaker and a Klar while keeping his shield bonus to AC doesn't feel like his feat chain was a waste. In fact, his good damage and solid defenses are pretty darn helpful for the party.My human cleric who used his bonus feat so he could grab Guided Hand at 1st level didn't have to pump his STR and can instead pump his WIS to boost his Will save, attack rolls, spell DC's and Bonus spells. He's side by side with the party fighter and looking good doing it, and his spellcasting is actually more potent.
Any human ranged character is 2 levels ahead of the curve for ranged combat compared to his non-human compatriots. Two attacks at level 1 while standing safely to the rear of the party? Yes please.
The human bonus feat pushes them ahead of the curve by at least two levels, and keeps them there for a substantial period of time. More than equivalent to just about anything else, considering that that extra feat can be worth: extra damage, +2 to the save of your choice, higher AC, more accuracy, more attacks, enhanced class abilities, additional proficiencies, better skills, additional capabilities, etc.
The bonus skill point is particularly nice, because at low levels it equates to an extra 4 skill points to each class skill you're able to invest in early on, and there's no penalty you have to pay to get that INT bump like a negative stat. Functionally it's a lot like having a bump to your INT.
So my previously mentioned Human Fighter has a many skill points as your alternate Aasimar with an INT bump (if he exists, I don't have Blood of Angels in front of me), a bump to the pertinent stat of his choice, and at second level I've got 4 extra damage on average to every attack and a bonus to my AC vs. your Darkvision and Resistances, both of which are conditional and may or not actually be used. Sounds like a fair trade to me.
i seriosuly cant believe this is still a discussion
they dont take a negative to a stat, big whoop, if you play around your race with the right class, the negative doesnt matter anyway
darkvision makes them slightly better than humans in select scenarios, and the SLAs arent really that useful
resistances are nice but not anywhere near game breaking, especially when other races get flat bonuses to saves which are often more important anyway
blood of angels just gives aasimar more options on classes, so what? its still not that bad, in fact, its the same, they just favor different classes
not taking a negative to a stat that would more times than not be irrelevant anyway being punishable by taking a smaller point buy is completely asinine
in terms of actual usefulness, a versatile human is only worse than an aasimar because versatile humans dont get darkvision
thats it.... like for real
Thread TL;DR: YMMV.
Tru nuf, tru nuf.
Though I did miss the "It's a line" art first off, so thanks for pointing that out. Still don't think it's a huge deal really though, never seen a line hit more than two people in a normal scenario.
It does vary, no doubt!
Still, an SLA that both blinds and damages just about anything comes in awful handy - against which there is little defense other than SR and a higher-than-book-standard Reflex save bonus. Given the stone cold harshness that being blind imposes on the bad guys ... eeewww. Especially from 9th through 13th levels those things will generate plenty of return on the investment - and remain an effective option well past that. One action to damage and probably blind 2+ enemies is pretty efficient. That they are an SLA is icing on the cake - there's no way for enemy casters to counterspell it (making certain rings useless), so unless they have greater spell immunity specifically to sunbeam keyed, the Aasimar has some entertaining ability to reach out and blind someone. The AC penalties alone make the rest of the party's job a ton easier. spell turning won't stop it ... all in all, it's pretty handy to have and even if the party has both a druid and a Sun domain cleric in the roster they won't have to prepare any unless they want to get in on the action after seeing it for the past 4 levels.
Although "Team Sunbeam" would be pretty entertaining too!
Unlike holy word et al, sunbeam doesn't care about HD relative to CL, creature type or whathaveyou. It also has lots of corner case bonuses that crop up at least once or twice in an AP - often at earlier than 13th. Why scrounge up hide armor, convert a trestle table into a tower shield and rip off a fistful of table legs to lay the beat down on the ooze when your aasimar can just burn the horrible thing down? ^______^
It's also an excellent way to find out if your foe(s) have Evasion or Improved Evasion (and how good they are at it) - and how strong their SR is too. All in all, me likey.
Oh it's nifty, no doubt. I just don't think it's worth nerfing the guy from chargen for the possibility he MIGHT get it.
so you blind 2 people on a reflex save?
wizard got glitterdust a whole 6 levels before the aasimaar. and it is a will save, which makes it good against most martial builds. as most martial builds, tend to not have decent will saves without heavy investment.
and the dwarf's +2-5 on 80% of every saving throw you roll, beats both the aasimaar's resistances, and any favored class bonuses or feat chains they offer.
or wait, the dwarf gets a fat +4 to AC/CMD against a common mid level creature type
an additional hit point per level
a limited version of racial trapfinding
a handful of martial/exotic weapon proficiencies
and before one argues the int bonus aasimaar is better than the human
the human can also choose an int bonus, regaining their skill point lead. and a bonus skill point per level, outweighs a flat +2 to 2 skills. and if a human wanted a 'racial' bonus to a skill or 3, there is the focused study alternate racial, which also allows the meeting or requirements and gives from +3-+6 to a skill. depending on level.
aasimaar got +2 perception/diplomacy
for an alternate racial. humans can gain +3 to both at 8, which increases to +6 at 10.
and the human w/ +2 int, is more like a human w/ +4 int. since humans get the real benefit of an int bonus. and can stack it with such if they wanted.
Ssalarn, I never said anything about using a variant aasimar with +2 Int. I said ANY race with a +2 Int easily bests the human +1 bonus to skill points. I honestly don't like the variant aasimar, because because of the sheer number of them, they can be used for any class. Thus a lack of variety of races overall.
Most dungeon crawls tend to be nastier than (now considered regular) aboveground wilderness adventures, simply because of the sheer number of encounters, the variety of encounters etc. It's not an increased CR of the encounters that's the difficulty.
I've noticed that most Pathfinder characters are essentially superheroes, and thus tend to be incredibly difficult to kill. Me, I prefer a bit more tension to my games, as it's more intellectually stimulating.
a side note: +2 Int is better than the human +1 skill point, simply because of the increased Int skills, spell save DCs and additional spells for Wizards, additional languages.
Most dungeon crawls tend to be nastier than (now considered regular) aboveground wilderness adventures, simply because of the sheer number of encounters, the variety of encounters etc. It's not an increased CR of the encounters that's the difficulty.I've noticed that most Pathfinder characters are essentially superheroes, and thus tend to be incredibly difficult to kill. Me, I prefer a bit more tension to my games, as it's more intellectually stimulating.
I've not found this to be the case with my experience running prepared adventures (PFS, APs, and stand alones). Sure there is a lot of encounters, but the bulk of them tend to be trash encounters for our group. A hit or two taken (usually during surprise round) and then the monsters are dead in short order (1-3 rounds). Break out the wand and its like nothing happened. Next encounter, similar, but now somebody took some ability damage. Break out the potion/scroll and same as above. The reason why? Most dungeon encounters tend to be = or +-1 CR. A CR=APL +1 encounter usually tends to be on the easy side for a well prepared party. Only when you get into the CR=APL +2-4 range does the party start to sweat. And that's only because of the potential DR/resistance/saves the enemy has. CR=APL +4 tend to be dungeon bosses, or at the very least dungeon level bosses. The party isn't afraid to go all out and use limited daily effects and/or consumables on these sort of encounters.
Above ground wilderness encounters tend to be much more difficult when you get to flying enemies/ambushes and the higher CRs that you should be fighting when having much fewer encounters. Heck, some of the APs and season 4 PFS scenarios have their toughest encounters in outdoor environments. Fighting a dragon in an enclosed space is MUCH easier than fighting one that is outside flying/swimming/burrowing.
As for PF characters being super heroes... Yeah, depends on who built them and who is playing them. I've played at plenty of tables where system master was below par (some character builds worse than the precons which suck pretty badly) yet they still got through it through clever play/luck. I've played at tables where the characters were so well built and played that we just face rolled through the module. I've played at tables where everybody had power builds but they were played poorly/1 trick ponies and a PC bloodbath ensued (1 scenario sticks out where I carried the party with a wand of cure light that used 34 charges in a 5 encounter day, was playing ye old support cleric so was only supposed to be minor damage contribution, had to polish off enemies since I was the only non/gimmick power build character).
I guess what I'm saying is while PF characters can be super heroes, it really is on the player/party if that is true. Some people get to play JLA, some people play some of the Avengers B teams (Great Lake Avengers anybody? though they might be like team F). Some end up playing Squirrel Girl (member of the above team, yet still has Doctor Doom on her list of villains defeated.)
Ssalarn, I never said anything about using a variant aasimar with +2 Int. I said ANY race with a +2 Int easily bests the human +1 bonus to skill points. I honestly don't like the variant aasimar, because because of the sheer number of them, they can be used for any class. Thus a lack of variety of races overall.
Most dungeon crawls tend to be nastier than (now considered regular) aboveground wilderness adventures, simply because of the sheer number of encounters, the variety of encounters etc. It's not an increased CR of the encounters that's the difficulty.
I've noticed that most Pathfinder characters are essentially superheroes, and thus tend to be incredibly difficult to kill. Me, I prefer a bit more tension to my games, as it's more intellectually stimulating.
a side note: +2 Int is better than the human +1 skill point, simply because of the increased Int skills, spell save DCs and additional spells for Wizards, additional languages.
Humans can elect to have +2 int and the bonus skills
or the bonus skills, or +2 to any stat of his choice.
Humans can elect to have +2 int and the bonus skills
or the bonus skills, or +2 to any stat of his choice.
Yup, but that floating +2 isn't all that great, when you can have lots of racial choices that assign two stats at +2, and one at -2. Even more so when you can have a race that doesn't even have a -2 to one attribute.
I dunno, just seems like humans are just there for those who like long feat chains. Not really my style.
Having run an Aasimar under 3.0 and 3.5, I have not seen them as too powerful for the old '+1' adjustment, if anything, kinda weak. While id build to take advantage of the prizes, I was no more effective than the other characters I was playing at the time, and inferior to my Dwarf Cleric by level! The Dwarf Cleric of 3.0 was a sweet spot though. I do not see the 'new' Aasimar as being terribly over powered, even with BoA. I've even grudgingly allowed them into my game, despite not having them in the 'Lore'.
I do have issues with the ARG Race Building Points being used as equivalents of character points. While I follow Umbral Reaver's suggestion, I have my own point system and modified write ups to better reflect the 37yo campaign. EG: Aasimars cost 2 character points, but unless they take an alternate racial trait, a racial feat or a very specific campaign trait, they count as Good and take minor damage/penalties from Evil/evil. I have a Paladin itching to play her first Aasimar when I restart.
I think the issue with Aasimar isn't their potency, it's their potency as compared to the other races. If aasimar had to pay a level of xp, it wouldn't be a concern.
Piccolo, that is the real issue. They are not more potent than other races.
Could it be argued that aasimars in some classes and builds are the best choice? Sure, no argument there. But are they by and large the best selection for a majority of classes/major builds? The answer is no. Yet humans ARE by an large the best or nearly the best at many if not most builds. Should humans pay a level tax similar to what you are suggesting just because halflings aren't very good except in some niche builds (that aren't even near top tier in the big picture, being the best rogue in PF is of dubious distinction due to how bad rogues are)?
if humans and dwarves don't have to pay a level tax, an aasimaar shouldn't either. and the human bonus spells known matters more to an oracle than maximizing an aasimaar life oracle's channel bonus.
I think the issue with Aasimar isn't their potency, it's their potency as compared to the other races. If aasimar had to pay a level of xp, it wouldn't be a concern.
it seems to me like the only way they are overpowered is if the GM lets you pick and choose freely between alt. racial traits and abilities, but even then you can do that with other races
what exactly makes them better than other races?
compared to the tieflings and tiefling variants, the only realy difference i see (aside from aesthetics and themes) is tieflings get the -2 stat
is that really it?
Piccolo, that is the real issue. They are not more potent than other races.
Could it be argued that aasimars in some classes and builds are the best choice? Sure, no argument there. But are they by and large the best selection for a majority of classes/major builds? The answer is no. Yet humans ARE by an large the best or nearly the best at many if not most builds. Should humans pay a level tax similar to what you are suggesting just because halflings aren't very good except in some niche builds (that aren't even near top tier in the big picture, being the best rogue in PF is of dubious distinction due to how bad rogues are)?
I completely disagree on your stance regarding humans, and also of rogues. I find Pathfinder humans to be nearly worthless. But I shall not belabor the point.
The problem with aasimar isn't just their relative potency as compared to standard races (and that potency is proven via the ARG), it's the fact that Blood of Angels makes them so versatile that they can nearly replace every other race. Not just the variance between breeds creates this concern, but the big chart is thrown in from B of A that allows dumping of the spell like ability in favor of something else.
It's also the fact that when the topic of overly potent races comes up, aasimar are always mentioned. That alone should be indicative that there is a problem with them, as the majority of people out there believe it to be true.
Me, I'm okay with them in their ordinary format and in the ARG, but I would like to see B of A pretty much banned. Same goes with much of the tiefling booklet.
potent as to in-game world population, or potent as in too many players are choosing this race?
I find Pathfinder humans to be nearly worthless.It would appear we aren't exactly playing the same game Piccolo (please don't take this as a negative comment. I run into this issue in several areas on these boards where I play the game differently than others.) In the games I play typically at least half of the player characters are Human.
kyrt and i are on the same page,
how exactly are humans worthless?do you play a game where racial abilities and SLAs are more important than stat dispersal? feat progression? skill variance?
i must know!!!
I tend to play Humans simply because I like the thought of playing a Normal Basic Human in a World of Fantasy. This extends to Human Scion Races as well.
That said my favorite Race would be Dwarves. If they were less Tolkien and more Nordic Lore.
Though I have seen plenty of Aasimar simply because of the Whole Divine born being. But I live in the Bible Belt of America.
The Chart is Ripe for Abuse if not regulated. But that is with anything else in the Game.
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that something can be abused and yield results that are above the accepted average of what was considered a fairly homogeneous power level is far from the assertion that it will always be abused and disrupt what was once considered the point of balance
this is the threat of all forms of power creep
even so, slightly higher averages do not make this race, nor its variants outliers in determining the overall power of the game
again, you must define potency, for if its power you fear, this thread should at least make you question the blatant superiority you hold to the aasimar, and if its popularity you fear this thread should challenge that as well
what is your sample size? what is your market? a personal dislike of a given mechanic and a desire for an entire community to simply give up on liking it reeks of a shallowsoul-esk thread campaigning to ban something that is neither unbalanced nor unacceptable
it also reeks of power gamer who's game focus is off-screen number crunching, rather than on screen role playing
you must not fear the optimizer, for he must fear the scenario where his optimization is made a mockery for he is unprepared, thus making him sub-optimal to its own irony
It's mostly that I compare the races against each other, and they do not even remotely seem akin to each other in raw power. Aasimar versus a straight up human is a great example, particularly when Blood of Angels and the Advanced Race Guide are in play.
I find myself wishing goblins and orcs had more bonuses to skills and the like, as when I compare them to elves and dwarves, there are blown out of the water.
I look at races as a means to narrow down what I want to do with a given class, to start specializing. I also look at them as sometimes interesting roleplaying opportunities, especially if I am playing a intellectually simple to run character class.
Put simply, humans are what most players pick when they can't figure out a race that would be more interesting or appropriate for their chosen class. They are as vanilla as they come, and have significant problems as regards sensory information, to boot.
It's mostly that I compare the races against each other, and they do not even remotely seem akin to each other in raw power. Aasimar versus a straight up human is a great example, particularly when Blood of Angels and the Advanced Race Guide are in play.
I find myself wishing goblins and orcs had more bonuses to skills and the like, as when I compare them to elves and dwarves, there are blown out of the water.
I look at races as a means to narrow down what I want to do with a given class, to start specializing. I also look at them as sometimes interesting roleplaying opportunities, especially if I am playing a intellectually simple to run character class.
Put simply, humans are what most players pick when they can't figure out a race that would be more interesting or appropriate for their chosen class. They are as vanilla as they come, and have significant problems as regards sensory information, to boot.
ok, compared to humans, in your book, they are OP, based on?
they get darkvision, and an extra +2 to a stat?where humans get an extra feat and free skill ranks per level regardless of INT
i think you are undervaluing the main components of concept creation from a mechanical means, which isnt bad, in fact it makes me the power gamer by comparison, but your assertion that humans are worthless based soley on sensory adaptability is... well, arguable
and you compared aasimars to humans who in your own words are "worthless"
so please elaborate further on what specifically makes aasimars OP
even look at them as separate races if you must (them being the variants from BoA)
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Humans worthless?!? Seriously piccolo?
You know when everyone disagree with you, do you ever stop and think that maybe your wrong?
I don't think they do.
Daylight can be given up via Blood of Angels for a +2 to nearly any stat. It can also be used in the dungeon to dazzle nearly everyone with darkvision.
Uh, that darkvision thingy is new, unless you mean to say that many races with an affinity to hang around in dungeons have light sensitivity.
And getting that +2 to one of the stats is random, a 6 out of 100 chance. You can get just as well a champion ability like being able to summon a silver holy symbol for one hour per day, which one of my players rolled up. He was less than happy about it, but that's the price for rolling the dice on big bonuses. ^^
Well, I think if I'd gone with my original plan for my current human Ranger in Rise of the Runelords, which would have been a Plumekith Aasimar and I'd taken the Celestial Servant feat for my animal companion ( together with Boon Companion ), it would have been kinda better than the character I am currently running with.
Then again, the extra skill point and extra feat I have now are immensely helpful, so I think it evens out. Having to wait until level 5 to get the standard Point Blank -, Precise -, Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim combo going, instead of level 3... that hurts quite a bit. And as a human I am free to take Craft Wand at level seven ( for some added versatility ) and still get the more powerful bow feats as soon as I want them.
I think the two races are balanced. Fetchlings, however, are too good.
Well, I think if I'd gone with my original plan for my current human Ranger in Rise of the Runelords, which would have been a Plumekith Aasimar and I'd taken the Celestial Servant feat for my animal companion ( together with Boon Companion ), it would have been kinda better than the character I am currently running with.
Then again, the extra skill point and extra feat I have now are immensely helpful, so I think it evens out. Having to wait until level 5 to get the standard Point Blank -, Precise -, Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim combo going, instead of level 3... that hurts quite a bit. And as a human I am free to take Craft Wand at level seven ( for some added versatility ) and still get the more powerful bow feats as soon as I want them.
I think the two races are balanced. Fetchlings, however, are too good.
i played a fetchling before, they didn't feel too overpowered. they are still inferior to both a human and a dwarf, even with Displacement twice a day, unless they can guarantee the benefit of their shadow blending.
No doubt aasimar are hopelessly overpowered.
I might actually consider them for one class. And then quite possibly go human anyways for the spells known and the bonus feat.
Totally unlike dwarves, who are my default first choice for anything that uses wisdom or humans who are my default choice for pretty much anything else.
There are six races that actually merit consideration: humans for the bonus feat, dwarves for the save bonus, elves for the spell penetration, halflings for being small and having +cha, ratfolk for being small and having +int, and grippli for being small and having +wis. Anything else is only for consideration to get a racial feat or archetype or weapon familiarity.
The only race that may be overpowered compared to a human or dwarf or elf is the samsaran.
even the samsaran alternate racial isn't that bad. it's only at most, 6 spells. which while they are cherry picked, must be divided among your allotment of new spells, and discounted spells.