Goblin Squad Member
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...if the skill paths/archetypes/'classes' are going to mirror Pathfinder. Bear with me. I'll try whatever game the devs come up with. The alignment component seems essential to the game already-as it is in pnp Pathfinder. Thus the only true healers are good-with access to positive energy channeling, spontaneous casting of heal spells and many ameliorating domain powers. Evil clerics can only heal...undead. Neutral clerics do the alignment tap dance. To compete on the battlefield evil orgs must use undead, enslaved divine casters and lots of neutral buddies. Ever tried to DM a campaign and the players didn't have a dedicated healer?
Oracles of Life can be evil and channel positive energy. That probably doesn't help, and but at least it might become an option.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...if the skill paths/archetypes/'classes' are going to mirror Pathfinder. Bear with me. I'll try whatever game the devs come up with. The alignment component seems essential to the game already-as it is in pnp Pathfinder. Thus the only true healers are good-with access to positive energy channeling, spontaneous casting of heal spells and many ameliorating domain powers. Evil clerics can only heal...undead. Neutral clerics do the alignment tap dance. To compete on the battlefield evil orgs must use undead, enslaved divine casters and lots of neutral buddies. Ever tried to DM a campaign and the players didn't have a dedicated healer?
Well the key thing here is... with the little we know about the current spell system, so far they have cleared no room for a need of spontaneous when it comes to the actual spells. IE spells aren't one cast per preperation to my knowledge, meaning converting X to cure X, is irrelevant. Per P&P rules when it comes to spells, evil clerics are not at a greater disadvantage to good in terms of healing ability, they simply lack the versatility of being able to prepare all of their spells as something other than cure spells, and convert everything they don't need for other tasks into cures.
Channel energy is a mechanic that we don't know anything on within the context of PFO however, and that it is very possible for the issue you mention of it being a particularly powerful healing ability on one side, and an average damage ability on the other. Of which I do agree, it may lead to issues.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...if the skill paths/archetypes/'classes' are going to mirror Pathfinder. Bear with me. I'll try whatever game the devs come up with. The alignment component seems essential to the game already-as it is in pnp Pathfinder. Thus the only true healers are good-with access to positive energy channeling, spontaneous casting of heal spells and many ameliorating domain powers. Evil clerics can only heal...undead. Neutral clerics do the alignment tap dance. To compete on the battlefield evil orgs must use undead, enslaved divine casters and lots of neutral buddies. Ever tried to DM a campaign and the players didn't have a dedicated healer?Well the key thing here is... with the little we know about the current spell system, so far they have cleared no room for a need of spontaneous when it comes to the actual spells. IE spells aren't one cast per preperation to my knowledge, meaning converting X to cure X, is irrelevant. Per P&P rules when it comes to spells, evil clerics are not at a greater disadvantage to good in terms of healing ability, they simply lack the versatility of being able to prepare all of their spells as something other than cure spells, and convert everything they don't need for other tasks into cures.
Channel energy is a mechanic that we don't know anything on within the context of PFO however, and that it is very possible for the issue you mention of it being a particularly powerful healing ability on one side, and an average damage ability on the other. Of which I do agree, it may lead to issues.
We agree on channel, Big O. But to me the ability to choose what spells you think you need and having the ability to switch them to healing in combat? That versatility means power.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We agree on channel, Big O. But to me the ability to choose what spells you think you need and having the ability to switch them to healing in combat? That versatility means power.
Oh no doubt it's versatility in P&P, the point I'm making is in P&P that does not de-facto make an evil priest worse of a healer.
The bigger question is, how exactly would such work in PFO's combat system as described. abilities take slots, and spells prepared are not one time fires, as far as I know we're talking 1 slot, spontanious casting is kind of hard to explain how it would work, if we have a modifyer of some kind to change your spells to be cures of that level, you've still taken a slot for that modifyer ability, and thus negated the benefit of having an extra slot. What I'm saying is spontanious casting may not be implimented at all (not that it won't, but that it isn't a certainty)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Totally disagree.
An evil character is more powerful than a good character.
Two good characters are more powerful than two evil characters.
The advantages of evil are that you take stuff from the weak. You lie, kill and steal and you do so to further your own power. The disadvantage of evil is that you do that to evil characters too and they do it to you.
The disadvantage of being good is that you hold yourself back to help the weak. You wait for them, lend them food and stuff and protect them where you can and you do so to further the power of the group. The advantage of being good is that good characters do the same for you.
Healing should always be easier for the good guys. Even if good and evil healing are identical, if you're almost dead, the good healer will heal you. The evil healer may decide he likes the look of your loot.
This is why evil gets slaves, mind control and undead - they can't trust anyone else.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Evil is its own advantage. You have little to no restrictions on selfish behaviour, so you act in ways advantageous to yourself without regard to who it may harm.
Evil clerics can cast Cure _ Wounds spells, they just need to prepare them. Good clerics are so often asked to cast cure spells that the need to prepare them was removed so they could prepare other things without their party crying that doing so would get everybody killed. As an evil cleric, you heal others when you find it useful to do so, and ignore the cries of those who are of less value in achieving your personal goals.
Evil clerics get the better end of the deal when it comes to undead. Good can learn to make them run away (and you either chase them down or risk having them come back) or destroy them outright. An evil cleric can make the undead cower in place which is more convenient for destroying them, or can command them. Why waste a potential resource?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Totally disagree.
An evil character is more powerful than a good character.
Two good characters are more powerful than two evil characters.
The advantages of evil are that you take stuff from the weak. You lie, kill and steal and you do so to further your own power. The disadvantage of evil is that you do that to evil characters too and they do it to you.
This is where I have to disagree within the context of PFO. 3 evil groups may indeed be weaker than 3 good groups, but within the context of PFO. A lone character, is intended to be just above worthless for anything.
If evil characters are supposed to go out alone, and prey on other individuals who are not in a group. That basically means they are supposed to focus on newbie characters who have not had time to join a social group.
Virtually every quote from the developers have been pretty clear, the character by himself, is intended to be just above a rock. If intending to say something is balanced because a character solo's better, but is useless in a group, that is like saying an 8 speed Schwinn is a balanced choice for a 40 mile motorcycle race, because it gets started faster.
With all the emphasis the developers have put on the necesity of groups, settlements etc... to accomplish much, saying something is ideal for solo, is roughly on par with saying it is ideal for someone who does not intend to play the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You lie, kill and steal and you do so to further your own power.Good characters can do this also. It's not the sole domain of evil.
You seem to be under the impression that the target of an action, rather than the action itself, determines its alignment qualities. That would come down to factional PvP, and WoW already does the cowboys & Indians thing.
Good people are good because they act differently, not because they only kill the dudes in black hats.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You lie, kill and steal and you do so to further your own power.Good characters can do this also. It's not the sole domain of evil.You seem to be under the impression that the target of an action, rather than the action itself, determines its alignment qualities. That would come down to factional PvP, and WoW already does the cowboys & Indians thing.
Good people are good because they act differently, not because they only kill the dudes in black hats.
So can a 'good' character steal? Absolutely. Can a good character lie? Absolutely. Can a 'good' character kill? Absolutely - Yes, there are restrictions if the character is roleplayed correctly, but they can most definitely kill. It will be a boring game if they cannot.
The advantages to being evil was stated that they could steal, lie and murder. How can these be advantages if a good character can do the exact same thing also?
It might be better to say a good character cannot (or should not) kill as their opening gambit in conflict or kill indiscriminately, but to say they cannot kill if flat out incorrect.
It does not matter who the target is either. A good character can kill regardless. I've used this example before, but it suits for this thread also. A 'good' orphan child has just witnessed his parents murdered at the hand of bandits. He hides in some bushes and lays low until they leave the area at which point he ventures forth and grabs a rusty dagger for his fathers boot to use in self defense while he tries to make it back to town. Said orphan now has the criminal flag for looting a corpse. In rides Mr Paladin who follows the LG god of law. Uh oh, he spies a criminal and proceeds to lop his head off.
Yes, a little over dramatised, but the meaning stands. There are an absolute myraid of reasons a good character can kill and kill with impunity.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So can a 'good' character steal? Absolutely. Can a good character lie? Absolutely. Can a 'good' character kill? Absolutely - Yes, there are restrictions if the character is roleplayed correctly, but they can most definitely kill. It will be a boring game if they cannot.
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Stealing and Lying are along the Law-Chaos spectrum and the good aligned character who steals or lies grows more chaotic, right? These aren't a matter of 'Good-Evil' but of Law-Chaos and would apply equally to Good, Evil, or Neutral aligned characters equally.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Stealing and Lying are along the Law-Chaos spectrum and the good aligned character who steals or lies grows more chaotic, right? These aren't a matter of 'Good-Evil' but of Law-Chaos and would apply equally to Good, Evil, or Neutral aligned characters equally....
So can a 'good' character steal? Absolutely. Can a good character lie? Absolutely. Can a 'good' character kill? Absolutely - Yes, there are restrictions if the character is roleplayed correctly, but they can most definitely kill. It will be a boring game if they cannot.
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I don't think they've stated one way or the other, but shifting one axis isn't mutually exclusive with shifting the other - there's nothing restricting those actions from affecting both axes.
Regardless, someone being Good (or Lawful, or both) shouldn't be sufficient cause to trust someone in the game - basically "Good" just means "hasn't been evil, lately (or yet)". You can be sure that some people will play characters who are as good as can be, up to the moment they attempt to destroy your settlement from within. Alignment (as defined in PFO) doesn't measure what someone's thinking.
Stealing and Lying are along the Law-Chaos spectrum and the good aligned character who steals or lies grows more chaotic, right? These aren't a matter of 'Good-Evil' but of Law-Chaos and would apply equally to Good, Evil, or Neutral aligned characters equally....
So can a 'good' character steal? Absolutely. Can a good character lie? Absolutely. Can a 'good' character kill? Absolutely - Yes, there are restrictions if the character is roleplayed correctly, but they can most definitely kill. It will be a boring game if they cannot.
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Many instances of stealing will result in some kind of shift in the game, lying however, the game won't be able to recognize it unless the character lies as part of a transaction with another player, then it can be noted within the reputation system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I disagree with the premises of the first post which implies that Clerics should be heal bots that support the rest of the party while the other guys take stupid risks and get to do the awesome stuff :D
In my group clerics were generally casting or Battle Clerics. It was made pretty clear that any healing would take place after the fight and preferable with CLW or CMW owned by the injured characters. Why would you heal the fighter when you can whack out more DPR than they do ?
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Evil clerics can only heal...undead.
Congratulations, you just won 10,000 wrong points!
Negative Energy Clerics are probably the 2nd best healers in the game, right behind Positive Energy Clerics.(or 3rd behind Life Oracles/ any Positive-Energy-orientated Oracle, regardless of Alignment)
(Negative-Energy orientated Life Oracles kind of get the best of both worlds)
90% of the Classes would look up to Evil Clerics for healing prowess.
An Evil Cleric who wants to heal alot does end up not having many spells besides Cure and Spontaneous Inflict...
But that is an issue outside the scope of healing life/undead and control/fear of undead...
Seriously, PFO is very unlikely to look much like the standard Vancian casting system, so fixating on specific rules interactions in the P&P game hardly seems like a productive discussion for PFO. That said, PFO is dedicated in implementing the flavor of Pathfinder, and that flavor does include that Positive Energy-orientated Clerics have certain faculties/flexibility orientated to healing life and wounding/scaring undead, while the Negative Energy-orientated Clerics have faculties with wounding life and healing/controlling undead. If you really have that much of a problem with such a state of affairs, I kind of wonder what you are doing on Pathfinder's own messageboards, and what you really expect from PFO which is dedicated to implementing the flavor of Pathfinder.
People seem to have side-tracked into discussing how Good and Evil may lie, etc. I don't think that's really relevant to Keovar's point when he originally wrote:
Evil is its own advantage. You have little to no restrictions on selfish behaviour, so you act in ways advantageous to yourself without regard to who it may harm.
Forget broad definitions of all this alignment stuff. This is a computer game. What is actually relevant here is that there are certain Alignment-implication actions that would bring personal benefit/power, that Good-aligned characters will pass on, but Evil doesn't need to. That's it. Moral judgements on things the game can't possibly track are just not relevant to Class/Alignment power discussion.
Good people are good because they act differently, not because they only kill the dudes in black hats.
Only killing dudes in black hats is acting differently((vs. killing any dude you see).
See the Good Champion PVP flag.
From what I know of the game PFO is a skill based system, not class based system. This means:
Anyone can pick up healing (Unless there are pre requisites)
So you could a Nercomatic Undead Master Warhammer Skills With healing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Back to the OP, It's highly unlikely we will have X spells per level as in PF:Rpg. Therefore, spontaneous casting is unlikely going to be in the game. I am expecting to see some kind of spell point system, although it's really too early to be sure. You won't be able to channel positive energy as an evil cleric, but you should be able to cast Heal spells just like a good cleric. You can also cast cure spells as a Druid, Ranger, or Bard, all with no alignment restrictions.
What IS the point of this thread, exactly?
I look at the OP and I can't figure it out, besides noticing several inaccurate claims about the tabletop game.
" To compete on the battlefield evil orgs must use undead, enslaved divine casters and lots of neutral buddies. "
There are alot of evil organizations in Golarion that may beg to differ with that assessment.
I mean, there's an awful lot of encounters with Evil forces who don't use those tactics in Paizo APs.
...That are just as difficult as encounters that do use those tactics.
The crucial healing advantage of Clerics is for things like Heal, Breath of Life, and Status Removal, and that is something that all Clerics do equally well, there is zero advantage for Good/Positive Energy Clerics there (Spontaneous Cure Spells doesn't apply).
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Goblin Squad Member
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What IS the point of this thread, exactly?
I look at the OP and I can't figure it out, besides noticing several inaccurate claims about the tabletop game.
" To compete on the battlefield evil orgs must use undead, enslaved divine casters and lots of neutral buddies. "
There are alot of evil organizations in Golarion that may beg to differ with that assessment.
I mean, there's an awful lot of encounters with Evil forces who don't use those tactics in Paizo APs.
...That are just as difficult as encounters that do use those tactics.The crucial healing advantage of Clerics is for things like Heal, Breath of Life, and Status Removal, and that is something that all Clerics do equally well, there is zero advantage for Good/Positive Energy Clerics there (Spontaneous Cure Spells doesn't apply).
+1
ummh ... Babau, Balor, Grabrezu, Maralith, Pit Fiends ...
I tend to find the evil dudes that hang out with evil outsiders more of a threat than some wussy Necromancer :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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Plus no Heinous flag for summoning them, either.There very probably will be. Summoning an outsider gives the spell the alignment subtype of that creature. So, Evil Monster = Evil Spell! So Heinous Flag should apply.
Lets not get too melodramatic or paranoid here.
Nobody ever said using spells with the Evil descriptor would make you Heinous.
There are stacks of Evil descriptor spells including Protection from Good, Magical Circle against Good, Curse Water, Death Knell, Painstrike, Symbol of Pain, Blasphemy and Unholy Aura just off the top of my head.
It would be rather odd if someone casting a level 1 Protection from Good suddenly gets smacked with a Heinous tag.
There is also no mention of spells with the Necromancy descriptor such as the Level 1 Curse Water making you Heinous either.
The Heinous tag seems very specific in what it applies to.