Bad, orc, bad!
Not my fault. The Elk provoked it.
And how exactly did he do that?
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Ahem
Indeed
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Elghund just failed that one pretty badly... completely beaten to the draw and then some apparently :(
In fairness, they have actually initiated the combat so don't feel bad Annalissa, they actually acted before he did anything so they have attacked us :p
Elghund - I've given a bit of a rundown in the thread of how I saw it... hopefully after reading that you don't feel that I've been too harsh?
Ninja nerf of scent hurts a touch :( Can I have a Feat swap as I don't think it's very viable if that's how it is working, becomes pretty pointless.
I'm just a bit wary of a single feat essentially resulting in your character never being surprised. The most liberal interpretation would envelop Elghund in a 30ft sphere where he automatically senses the existence of any new creature as it enters / leaves... without any Perception roll required and irrespective of either magical or mundane means of hiding.
In this particular case Elghund was not wary in any manner as well as being distracted by the potential of bagging a trophy... I thought it reasonable that he didn't automatically pick the scent of a 1 ft tall creature from in amongst the scent of a shaggy half ton musky elk.
Had Elghund been RP'ed more cautiously in his approach or warily sniffing the air then I likely would've given him a chance of picking up something that didn't smell like the other.
You can swap out the feat if you like, though I still think it's quite useful despite the limitations.
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Sorry I thought it was pretty clear he was being all huntery and subterfugey, down to the point of even trying to downplay what he was doing to the party and spending time and skill getting in as close as possible before revealing his true intent. I figured if I had THEM fooled in RP then things were looking solid, even Annalissa seemed to think I was being overly open and careless wandering up harmlessly.
The Scent ability has its upsides, sure, in that he might know something is within 30' of him (but not where, and can still be surprised if they are invis/stealthed and doesn't spend time finding them, which isa move action just to get the direction and then you have to go seek), but that also assumes there is no wind and that the thing has a smell or hasn't taken precaution against the scent ability - that there is no smoke, or pungent stenches etc. There's plenty of ways to counter it. It isn't a radar though, it just provides warning that he isn't alone - which it didn't do, hence he's now really in deep trouble.
I'll keep it, but Elghund will now simply move at half speed and keep checking scent from here in 24/7. Kinda built a character around his whole Scent tracking schtick, kinda disappointed that it doesn't work, and kinda disappointed to find out it doesn't work in such a manner.
Like I mean, it was a Feat cost straight up, then more points pushing up a decent Wis to buy it as well, Orcs take a -2 Wis, so just getting to 13 was a bit of an investment in build. It isn't as good as Uncanny Dodge, and doesn't stop him being jumped or surpised like UD would, nor does it provide any of UD's defences.
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First point - if you were trying to act with subterfuge and present a outward front different to intent... I would have appreciated a heads up. Otherwise I don't have a clue whats going on and have to take your actions at face value... and face value was you approaching with wonder and trying to befriend the stag.
It was incongruous to me as a DM to have you attempt to Handle Animal... then attack bald faced. It's kind of like using Diplomacy to get someone to lower their guard before shanking them... really more a territory where Bluff should come into play.
That you're now going to just move at half speed and spend half of your time actively sniffing the air just makes me a bit sad. Despite you saying that it isn't a radar... that's clearly what you're asking for. An automatic ping whenever anything new moves into your sphere of scent. Knowing how Elghund is likely to play, your first action whenever I tell you of a new scent will be to stop, confirm direction and react accordingly... likely with fairly extreme prejudice.
I'm not trying to be combative or restrictive about the ability, I honestly am not. I can just see problems in the future with a straight player favorable RAW interpretation of the scent ability. Elghund is already an ultra conservative crafty orc... who would then have the added bonus of automatically knowing whenever the party moves within 30ft of anyone new.
I'd like to still have some degree of trickery and mystery for the Ulfen group, and not just make it straight up rock-em-sock-em robots... But I also don't necessarily want to ask myself 'So do I want scent to work? - or do I want to screw over Elghund?' before each encounter.
There's limits to what you can do with Bluff and Diplomacy so figured the go was HA - he's cruddy with people, he does well with Animals though. I figured thus that the closest thing would be the Handle Animal skill, as it allows you to get animals to do things - I figured his 'show' was transparent enough in light of his last endeavours, obviously not.
As it was, the Animal was suspect of him, so the game was up and he went for it.
Sorry, but the intent was to go down the Scent route, get a Scent pet, buy Deepvision etc and make Elghund the most trackiest bloodhound-like hardest to surprise guy in town, and continue on his rises in Wisdom to keep buiding his track/perception etc. It's good, but hey, so is a Rogue or Barbarian who don't even have to worry about 30' and keep all their dex bonuses even if the ambush is a guy 200' away shooting from a tree.
The build path is to keep piling on the ability to make him hard to catch unwares, ninja master see you coming stuff.
I'll just retire him after this combat as clearly that's contra to where this is going and will present problems.
I had picked scent, made it clear (I thought) that's what this guy was all about, and went from there. Had this been of major concern I would have hoped it was raised then.
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I'm not sure if this helps.
One of our copious dogs is a legit hunting dog who can track by scent She is absolutely amazing at sniffing things out, and even on urban walks will spontaneously duck into a bush and come out with baseball hats, ancient tennis balls.
Whenever my parents or friends come by, she gets insanely excited and has to bring them a toy. She rushes to her toy box, grabs something and without fail with orbit them making wookie-like noises.
My friends have come to adopt a sort of "surprise-Bella" game where they come in through the side door, or the back door. Or if they open the front door and for some reason she's not staked out the front door, they sneak in quietly to try to surprise our dog.
They don't succeed every time, but they actually have surprised the dog on numerous occasions. Sometimes it's because someone is talking, sometimes is because someone else has already arrived and the dog is sleepy, sometimes is because the dog was drinking. I don't know, maybe other times it's because all the jasmine around our house is blooming (as it is now), and that inhibits her olfactory perception.
I personally think scent is fine as a mechanic, and never play it as automatic detection. It has range (30ft) and something invisibly flying in at 60ft can absolutely get the better of someone sipping from their waterskin or talking distractedly about the weather.
I've also played it in the past, where if a say a pixie flies in, and the person-with-scent makes a Perception check they may be able to detect the smell of "fresh cinnamon and holly". Just because someone detects a scent, it doesn't mean they know what the source of it is, and if it means danger, or if there's just a discarded picnic basket in the bushes.
Similarly, doesn't do much good in a crowded area, in a tavern, a city street with people coming and going every second - there's so many moving you can't track them all; doesn't really help in a sewer or strong smelling area, doesn't help if the enemy have planned for it, are sitting in a tree 100' away with a crossbow, fireballing the party from a tower, etc.
Even if you do pick up the scent, you can still be flat footed, surprised, etc and don't gain the Dex bonuses etc. Like an invisible person making noise, you know they are around, but not where - until they stab you. If they are mving, its very difficult to actually get a hold of them. Scent moves as they do, which means the tracker keeps having to spend move actions just determinng which direction they need to head and then a standard action to move there. That's a bad game of cat and mouse.
On the other hand if someone is silly enough to try hide when theres only 2 people and 30' of open ground and that ground is pristine snow then you'd expect in that totally idealised situation it would actually do what it says on the packet.
Anyhow, will get the popcorn and see what the party now does against what was supposed to be this evenings supper and what now appears to be some kind of angry fairy.
I'll just retire him after this combat as clearly that's contra to where this is going and will present problems.
As in you're going to withdraw from the game :(
Shifty, So how would you have had me run that encounter?
Rather than focus on what's happening in thread... perhaps if I put forward a different scenario to try and explain where I'm coming from:
Our intrepid Ulfen are stalking towards a stronghold where a pair winter wolves are on guard outside. However you also see that twenty feet to their left is the macguffin that you came to steal. The wolves are wary, but not overly alarmed at present.
As a DM I would be perfectly happy to allow you to attempt to sneak up and try and lift the macguffin without thinking 'Bugger, I'd have to get within their scent range and therefore they'd automatically know something was wrong'. If you made a noise while sneaking and alarmed the wolves, then they might get sniffing and smell you out... but not without a reason to raise their level of alarm.
The problem with Scent is that it's not built to be a player ability, but it can be fixed relatively simply.
Why don't you just attach a perception check to it? It's a sense, just like vision or hearing. It can run off the same rules.
Set a low base DC (like 10, the survival DC for scent), then add modifiers based on ambient/relative scents and distance as well as how strongly the GM rules the creature's scent to be. This way it's still reliable, but not an auto-detect. A side benefit is that it also scales with level now, rather than being a flat bonus.
In this form, it gives the PC an edge over non-scent PCs (Being able to pick up things vision or hearing would miss, as well as the low tracking DCs) but it isn't overpowering.
That's how I'd run it at least.
But yeah, this isn't something that should be so dividing that it causes a player to withdraw from the game. That just seems excessive.'
That's the point of the wolves though isn't it?
Guard dogs don't have killer perception, they have the scent ability which gives them the ability to pick intruders who come within 5-20 yards (wind dependent).
If Elghund wanted to get past the pack of guard wolves, he might have to come up with a few plans:
Does he throw some meat from a distance and hope they get distracted?
Does he spend a few gold on Scent blocker (from the Ult Equip)
Did he consider picking up the Feat to simply be able to deny them their Scent ability?
Does he trick them by placing more of his scent (or an alternate scent) nearby?
Or does he just smash and grab then walk off leaving no scent trail due to his favoured terrain? Or maybe lead them off on a scent trail of his that he prepared earlier when he made a false trail (he can toggle on/off) as a second level ranger in favoured terrain? Or just invis up and walk past, leaving no scent for them to even register?
Are those guard dogs having to spend continuous move actions staying alert and sitting there smelling the air all day? What happens when they get bored?
It's pretty easy to work around, but at the end of the day coming within 20' of a Druid or Cleric with a decent Wis and Perception skills is nigh impossible too.
The problem with Scent is that it's not built to be a player ability, but it can be fixed relatively simply.
However there now a numer of ways to get it pretty easily as a player now, and it even has a Feat path. It's certainly not foolproof.
It's just a little difficult to unwind a core concept from a character and turn something you know you have to work within the bounds of into something that you work within the bounds of that may now work or not work properly - like deciding Wizards now come with a default Arcane Failure chance for wearing anything at all, but it scales - you expect that if you cast then it works, so long as you run within the mechanics.
To answer the original question, I'd presume that Elghund would have picked up teh different scent, especially if it was one of the scents he took trouble to ientify at the start.
That would have given him a tip off that something isn't right, and he could have backed off and warned the party, allowing them to use whatever THEY had to try locate the extra creature who he couldn't see.
As far as he was concerned there was just him and one creature, he got close, nothing indicated there was another, so he carried out his intention. Now had the creature known about him and had set an ambush that tricked his smell, was a Fey folk with pass without trace or some other tricksy startegy then 'well played little sprite, well played', but short of that I'd have expected him to have been tipped off and warned there was something else there.
While Favored Terrain allows you to leave no scent trail, it doesn't on it's own eliminate your scent. You can't be tracked - but a foe with scent could still pick you up while you were physically present.
And I know there is a myriad of other ways that you might get around a creature with scent. I was trying to just show that the considerations work both ways.
What about this encounter though Shifty? - do you still feel hard done by here - despite the additional information passed on about the setup and what the relationship was betwixt critter 1 and critter 2?
While Favored Terrain allows you to leave no scent trail, it doesn't on it's own eliminate your scent. You can't be tracked - but a foe with scent could still pick you up while you were physically present.
Sure, but they can't find him, and can't follow, so if he moves they need to keep stopping and guess what direction he is now in. It becomes a circle pretty fast. As you say, they know something is there, they just don't know who and have a hard time finding where, which is all pretty reasonable for a guard dog really, they aren't much good if they can't effectively use their Scent ability, its what makes them good - the Low Int means they can be easily misled. The problem here is the Orc has scent AND half a brain and can tell his mates, unlike the dog that can only bark a lot.
What about this encounter though Shifty? - do you still feel hard done by here - despite the additional information passed on about the setup and what the relationship was betwixt critter 1 and critter 2?
Well yeah I do, as there was no mechanical reason that Elghund shouldn't have picked up something was amiss. The pixiespritethingamy was apparently just sitting there, ok he's invis, but that shouldn't have denied scent any more than invis creatures walking around generate sounds.
Elghund should have (by raw) got the tip off that there was something else present, as opopsed to just thinking he was being all clever trying to get the jump on a talking Elk and that the two were (effectively) alone.
Where I dislike it was that as far as I knew Scent worked just like it was supposed to in RAW, and in that circumstance the ability was in pretty much the optimal conditions, barring any other shennanigans (ie Blinking, Dimension Doors, Pixies shooting from the trees, Creatures being summon on top of the haples Ranger) it all looked golden. Finding out the hard way when your ambush not only fails, but you get totally spanked via a combo of the mechanics working some totally new and not declared way and thus being ambushed is pretty sore. I'd made a point of picking the Scent and worked it into his whole caper - if it was going to be a problem its one I probably needed to know about well before.
Picking up the scent of something you can't see, in an already dubious looking encounter should have got the old Spidey senses tingling and Elghund out of an ambush, just like had a Barbarian standing there been jumped - except the Barbarian would have been better off as he'd not be flat footed nor subjectto the Sneak attacks, or a Rogue in some cases.
If he got hold of a scent then started walking around sniffing the air and trying to track something then I'd suspect he'd have similarly been skewered, and that would be fair enough too... they'd be on to the fact that he was on to them. As it is, who'd have known the orc had such a good nose? As long as he kept a little bit cunning he might have been able to withdraw quietly and let the others keep talking while he started trying to pick what was going on, or outright told them there was something up. They had a cunning ambush, I'll pay that, but at the same time that they have a cunning ambush shouldn't deny him the ability to detect it considering his strong point is supposed to be doing just that.
Anyhow, its a pretty sore point now, and not sure there is a middle ground, any more than it just being an outright nerf for nerfs sake and somewhat unfair - similar in my book to banning Power Attack because the bad guys might be disadvantaged by dying too fast, or banning Invis because the bad guys wont get a fair shot at seeing the recipient. I'm not wild on things simply being declared broken because lazy enemies can't just walk up and punch the character in the face without being detected. Let them work for a living, just like we have to :)
Just because they have an ability I'm not sure they should just trump mine, that's a bit harsh.
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Fault #1 on my part: Lack of distances in the description... though I could see how that would quickly become a game of 'I move 25ft from the enemy to sniff him.'
I think you thought Elghund was getting quite close - within 10-15 feet of the elk. Where as my thoughts were that it wasn't really letting you get anywhere near it yet. You were probably within 30ft, but definitely not within 20ft.
Fault #2 on the format's part: Disjointed nature of posting doesn't clearly play out the actual synchronicity of the events. I know I've been intermittently posting due to work busyness and what not - and I know that Shifty was trying to give me enough to work with to keep things moving.
I made a similar truncation when I responded - knowing that Elghund was going to charge - I went with initiative straight away rather than pausing with a interim post. Had I gone with an interim post of the elk continuing to back away and Elghund not getting as close as he thought he was, then things may have played out differently.
Fault #3 on Elghund's part: Not being explicit about the intent to try and shank the elk from the start. I honestly thought from the fluff posting in your first two posts that you wanted to be friends.
Had I known that the shanking was your ultimate goal, I would have quiet rolled a Bluff vs Sense Motive vs the little critter to see if you fooled him. Ultimately it would have played out the same way - but probably in a slightly more satisfying manner - with there being a tangible reaction from the elk of 'I don't trust this biggun' and it making a charge against you of it's own accord.
I 100% support you attempting to trick my NPCs... but I like to have a general idea of what your PCs are attempting so I can appropriately DM.
Fault #4 on Initiative's part: Elghund lost initiative. That meant that the charge of the elk and little critter played out without any reactivity from Elghund or descriptives around the elk tensing muscles for the charge or Elghund seeing a sudden change in it's demeanor... descriptives that might have shown that there was more than it seemed to the encounter.
Reason that I didn't give you an auto-detect and react:
#1: Elghund was described as being awestruck by the elk and not wary of it. Yes I know that scent is an always on no thought activity by RAW... but I like to react off fluff postings sometimes as well. Chalk that up as another fault on my part.
#2: I considered that the tiny little being riding the big shaggy elk (that he's been cuddled up with for some time) was probably not a strong enough scent difference to show through.
#3: Elghund lost initiative, which meant that he found out about the little critter via it's steel before he had a real chance to detect it olfactorially.
#4: Given that Elghund didn't know about the little critter and was taken in by the bluff it initially made - I considered that the little one was able to put two and two together re: the orc approaching and come up with 'The biggun means us ill'.
#5: I considered the fact that with a +5 Perception on Elghund's side vs a +20 Stealth on the little critter (plus cover and invisibility on top) that perhaps that helped to mask whatever scent might have been present.
Moving on and TL;DR, I can see your point about using scent as basically a pinging radar and I like your ultimate concept of playing a sensorially focused ranger. I would hope that you can also see part of my point... but I'm also sensing an undercurrent that you're unhappy even after the explanation that I've given and justifications put forward.
I like you as a player Shifty and the potential of Elghund as a PC - especially once we move beyond the Linnorm Lands and into Irrisen... but I'm still sensing that you think I almost purposefully screwed over your character here and I'm just worried that there is a lack of trust in the judgement calls that I need to make as a DM to keep things rolling on.
A little reassurance on the topic of trust will help assuage my fragile ego. Lord knows I err on the side of the player a lot of the time as well, and I'm open to bending RAW if the proposed action sounds cool or sounds like it should work.
But if you really don't trust me to make these sorts of small judgement calls to keep things moving along?
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Here's what I think...
DMVoV needs to post an update in the fey group!
Indeed part of running it the way I described was to ensure the party itself remained unawares, I figured most people would put two and two together that the Orc was a stone faced killing dog and not some refugee from a PETA convention. Him wanting to be big huggy buddies with an elk is like a Lion trying to convince a bunch of antelope it just wants to be bestest buds, especially as we are supposed to be the Grim House of Nasty party. Talking Elk just means tonighst dinner is sorted out and the blood and entrails scatered to appease some dark spirits. The whole point was to react, but was hoping the fluff was astually going to sucker the Elk AND the party, all the better for shock at the betrayal.
Yeah I had taken it that Elghunds continual push forwards meant by the time all the chatting had being going on and the party giving reassurances meant he was within a decent range as you describe, as opposed to the long range it actually was.
The Initiative system was a pain here, but they've actually gone off before he's een drawn, suppose with a good sense motive the game would have been up so that could have happened. Elghund was bluffed into thinking the Elk was talking and wanted to be friends, it's just he had no intentions toward it other than dark ones and indeed was running a game of his own. Cujo just can't be friends.
All things said and done I can now see how it is that Elghund just got trounced, I was just rather surprised and disappointed that Scent wasn't what it says in the book, and worse than that is an activated ability. Its like spending a whole bunch of attributes on Perception and then being told it only works if you take a move action to use it, and if you don't you are now effectively blind. It means either walking around 'using it' the whole time, or it may as well not exist.
Worse, you built a character called 'Eagle Eye' who ironically is blind as a bat, but sans the sonar; retooling him as Elk Hound, mysteriously named as such depsite he can't smell a troglodyte on a favourable breeze just isn't what I had in mind, and not something I can really work with.
Nah I'm not really happy, but thats not a question of your judgments, its a question of breaking an ability the guy is built around via an unfavourable change of RAW. Ironically at a PFS game on the weekend my Lion AC was jumped by a goblin in a sewer despite Scent, and we didn't blink... it was a rotting sewer, with a fire burning in it, of course he had no idea there was a Goblin hiding behind the pillar up ahead.
In short, not happy with the change to it being a move action or it just doesn't work at all, nor having to make skill checks to use it all of a sudden after the fact - making it worse than the Trait option, and just feels like an unfair retcon of an ability on the grounds that it is 'too good' without taking stock of its already elaborated upon shortcomings. It's not like its some cheezy loophole being exploited, its a straightforward ability available to many classes etc. What happens when its our Casters in Earth Elemental form with Tremorsense? Scent will look a bit primitive then.
Don't worry about Ego, I'm certainly not clipping your GM chops, we've been at this together a while now and all is fine - I'm just not happy about this predicament, and a lot of that was finding out the hard way.
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Good call Kelgar, and I liked your earlier post too - the comment on the Jasmine appears to be RAW as well :p
At our table, we actually use the Sept 2011 Stealth Playtest Rules, they are heaps cleaner than the vanilla ones. This is the rule that adds the hidden condition.
How we run it is - as far as scent, it's 100% automatic detection within 5ft. Which is great if you were fighting something, and it went invisible and is somewhere in the room. It's just walking about the room until you are within 5ft and presto, you've overcome invisibility.
The 30ft detection actually doesn't come up much in an ambush scenario. Usually if I have bad guys ambush my group (and usually totally forget if someone has scent), they are starting 30-60ft away and using a charge attack. Scent doesn't come into play until it's practically too late, and everyone in the group has gotten Perception checks to spot the orcs hiding behind the trees or what-not.
I'd think for the both of you, you should acknowledge (and have so already), the first time the ability comes into play it's going to be a rough patch. There's literally hundreds of posts about scent vs invisibility, so in every campaign it's going to be rough the first time or two it comes up.
Yeah I remember the beta rules, we had the reverse problem that under the original stealth rules you couldn't hide from anyone with Darkvision UNLESS you had hard ocver from them. Darkvision had a line that explicitly declared stealth null and void if only using darkness as cover, which has since been changed.
The comment you make about ambushes is pretty spot on, as they normally kick off outside 30' which mitigates any scent advantage. Likewise the party Druid has already spotted the Orcs with his crazy high Percpetion he could use while walking around and told the party :p Fly-by's likewise, and the old 'Fireball from the Tower' were our other all time faves.
I don't want to make it a move action to enable scent. I'm happy keeping it as a passive ability, but by the same token if an NPC isn't paying attention or is distracted... then perhaps the automatic 'ping' from a new scent entering their scent-o-sphere is lost in signal noise? That's more what I was looking for here.
Keep the scent, chalk this down to growing pains in the PbP and give me another couple of hundred posts to see if you like the way I work it... and then make a call on whether to change up or keep it.
For surprise round initiative, I tend to keep it to those that have a reason to potentially be able to twitch react. So in an ambush, it would be probably Perception based. In this case the elk's master was ready to throw down some steel regardless of what was being said - hence being able to react to the inkling of Elghund trying to start the charge.
In a synchronous system - they probably would have met halfway between, both charging majestically at each other to thunderously meet in the middle in a clash of steel and bone. Unfortunately PF is a-synchronous, so it played out more like the elk readying a charge and then interrupting Elghund's action to charge him.
In other news... I'd like to warn Annalisa that Elghund is trying to befriend your hund. Perhaps he's after some dog-al'orange as dessert?
Lastly, now that we've sounded everything out... I think this sums up the general feel?
I'm happy keeping it as a passive ability, but by the same token if an NPC isn't paying attention or is distracted... then perhaps the automatic 'ping' from a new scent entering their scent-o-sphere is lost in signal noise? That's more what I was looking for here.
Scent's a yes/no ability, though, which makes scenarios that have any ambiguity about them problematic.
I am finding the Dice Gods resent someone trying to play a gnome as a tough SOB.
I'll just retire him after this combat as clearly that's contra to where this is going and will present problems.
Yeesh. I'm not sure that's a good attitude to be having over a rules disagreement. (I thought Joana's drama was enough.) Also if it hasn't come up already, I'd point you all toward the paizo blog stealth rework's treatment of scent rules. It's good stuff. (But I haven't had a chance to pop into the Taghaen Dugha thread for a week, sadly, being camping and all...)
On that note, I'm actually down here til Sunday. It's bloody cold and I have a small mountain of uni work to do, but it isn't all bad. I'll pop into the thread with some rolls and see what I can manage on the hit-and-miss phone reception for the rest of the week when I'm back on the campsite. I'm all caught up now. :)
Sorry for the hassle!
I am finding the Dice Gods resent someone trying to play a gnome as a tough SOB.
Or a clever one. Though the Halfhand outpacing me with his knowledge rolls is the main problem there.
OK so moving on.
For those who were apparently taken unawares despite Elghund acting totally out of character and apparently didn't "Smell a rat" immediately:
Elghund
Translation: Elk Dog.
'Norwegian Elkhounds are bred for hunting large game, such as wolf, bear and moose'.
...and then someone sticks a big fat Elk in front of him.
Mr Elk and Elghund can be friends..
Also if it hasn't come up already, I'd point you all toward the paizo blog stealth rework's treatment of scent rules.
This one?. Doesn't change a lot though, still has auto detect.
The conversation becomes more complex when you then find contradictory statements in between Scent and the Perception rules:
Race Elves, half-elves, gnomes, and halflings receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception checks. Creatures with the scent special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks made to detect a scent. Creatures with the tremorsense special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks against creatures touching the ground and automatically make any such checks within their range.
So assuming this means you need to still make a perception check to smell an enemy it would have worked out:
Notice a visible creature DC0 (in this case it's smell not sight)
Distance +1 - +3
Conditions +2 (Its on top of a smelly deer)
Assume size 'Tiny' +8
Distracted: +5 Elghund went in quickly on the Elk
Scent ability -8
DC10 check for a Tiny creature 30' away seems reasonable.
Had it been the size of a halfling or bigger it would been almost an auto pass.
When applying other conditions ie shut doors conditional mods etc, it works out pretty reasonably. Small, hard to notice things remain small and hard to notice. Creatures not making an effort to hide their smell and in the absence of other mitigating factors will likely been found
(I thought Joana's drama was enough.)
My 'drama?' :P
There is no residual drama... We've all hugged and made up and can get back to the task at hand - killing tricksy fae and their chattel.
Yah, we have sorted it out and have gotten on the same page.
Suppose the pair of us have had a busy last little while; too many kids running around, the tail end of a busy Easter break, and the blood sugar crash from all the chocolate overload.
Now kindly kill the tricksie pixie kthx.
As a slight aside, I'd just like to state that I am enjoying running these two PbPs side by side. I think Reign of Winter is close to my own personal sensibilities as far as DMing and general tone goes - and hope that the shared journey through snow and worse will be of mutual beneficence.
I keep wanting to peek in on the other game, but I've heard they're ahead of us, and I don't want anything spoiled.
Remove the temptation, K. I hid the thread to avoid seeing their posting updates. It helps... but the precious calls to me.
I guess I'm just weird, I haven't felt the slightest desire to keep track of their tread.
The fae are indeed a mite ahead of the Ulfen, though I'm not necessarily keeping both threads taking the same tack through the AP. Encounters are being changed and revised to suit the groups and their particular makeup.
I've been able to peek to my heart's content, it's been fantastic. I keep telling myself to stop, but it calls to me... :P
DM VoV gave us permission to look at each others threads so it's no big deal to those who do loo, some just prefer not to, and I just don't feel any interest in doing so.
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I'm staying out, as they are ahead of us. Dunno how - its full of little talkative do gooders, surely they can't hack and maim their way through the baddies faster than us AND have leisurely chats while they do so!?
Well, those Fey are a tricksome bunch ;-)
...little talkative do gooders...
Do-gooder? Them's fightin' words. I'll have you know I'm only ONE of those three things.
I'm not fooled! I saw you take Weapon Focus: Snuggling at 1st level.
The Care Bear familiar is the real giveaway.
I did wonder about that.
Had a VISA run down to Singapore today - hence the lack of updateage - will catch up over the weekend.
I... I just really like hugs...