If you say, "Hey, it's getting dark, can I walk you to your car?" It is a question. It gives control to the person who answers the question. Being a question, it is not inherently hateful (and someone who sees it that way has their own problem, which you have to recognize probably ultimately has little to do with you). If someone does take offense, you can in fact point out, "Just asking. You don't want to, that's cool. Have a good night." That reaffirms that you're offering to be helpful, you are not implying anything insensitive.
I didn't offer, but I have done this before. Packing up to leave a class around 9 PM. It's dark, but it's nothing the cohort hasn't had many times before. Apparently one of the women, pushing fifty, bum knee, heard a rumor that the cops were after someone that night. (She was always bringing in rumors and urban legends about this and that. Extremely credulous.)
I've got my backpack hoisted and I'm ready to go. She brings much more to class and is still packing.
"[Samnell], would you walk me out to my car tonight? The police are on the lookout for someone."
"Yeah, sure."
I waited the extra two minutes for her to get her stuff together and we walked out. My car was all of twenty feet away from hers. Nothing happened. She thanked me. I went home and didn't think about the incident again until 2013. She was afraid, asked, and I could do this trivial thing to get her through it, so I did. No big.
I've seen men do quite the opposite, though. They presumed the woman was afraid, required their protection, and took charge of the whole affair without so much as a polite inquiry. Dudes, women are people. They are not your pets. If they need something from you, they'll let you know and if they do you should keep on treating them like people. If they don't let you know, it's probably because they don't think you're a very safe prospect. Keep that in mind and try to think about what you've said or done to give that impression.
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A group that asks itself how it can be more friendly to female gamers is already pretty much at the destination because it reflects upon itself.
Most female unfriendly groups do everything to avoid reflecting upon themselves because then they would see that most of their "ideals" and rituals (like trash talking, a fixation on "combat" or the notion that you must "earn" something by endless boring repetition) are just a hollow facade for insecurities and traumas.
I think that's largely true, but as evidenced by a lot of the people asking legitimate questions about how to handle various aspects of it, I don't think it's completely as simple as "Want to be women-friendly? Congrats! You're already there simply by wanting it!"
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So, if I can summarize how this thread has gone:
OP: Hey, Jessica did this interview and wow, some of it was kind of disturbing. How do we help? How do we make sure our gaming environments are friendly to women?
A poster: BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MEN? We're mistreated in other areas of life!
I have to disagree with you there.
Your original post on this thrread may have been intentioned towards how to make gaming environments friendlier towards women, but as I read it the post covered TWO things.
The first portion was aimed at male privilige (around a third of your post).
The second portion aimed at sexism, and seemed slated towards the workplace.
I point you back to your own post: Here.
It's pretty reasonable that people might feel that they have a right of reply to your post without being edited, censored, or subject to gaslighting and dismissal and accusations of 'derailing'.
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- the wage gap, which I believe still shows that women earn something like 75% of what men do in the same industry on average;
This is an unfortunate and terribly complex topic, which has a number of factors leading to it, arguably most of which aren't the result of intentional discrimination. Compared same job to same job with equal experience, the gap is much smaller, but still there.
I've seen some studies that suggest that perhaps the largest single reason for the gap that's left is that coming out of college, on average women don't argue as much for salary, taking first offers rather than making counter offers, and many companies will happily take advantage of anyone who accepts an initial lowball offer regardless of gender. Myself and one of my coworkers had something like a 15k difference (though I had a grad degree and she didn't, but same position, same experience, she accepted the initial offer, I rejected it and asked for more). This isn't the fault of women, nor the fault of men, but perhaps an indictment of current social mores that teach women to not argue, be demure, don't make a fuss, etc.
Secondly, there was one recent study looking at the hiring of scientists in academia. Resumes were sent out, some in identical copies with a male or a female name attached to one and the other, and they looked at what they saw for hiring rates. Nobody expected the study to find that the worst discrimination and lowest pay offers were from female scientists hiring female scientists. That's not something easily accounted for in the often assumed dynamic of male abuse of power and subtle discrimination against women on their part, intentional or not.
Cis-gendered white males tend to not face a lot of things that other groups do not, but it's a mistake I think to make too many assumptions otherwise. Things are often much more complex than not.
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If you have invited a female gamer and that is a new/uncomfortable situation for you, so you ask yourself how you can create a friendly enviroment for her, a good way to start is to create an atmosphere of trust.
- If you have weapons (be it collectors swords, or anything else) in your gaming room, remove them or consider gaming at a less intimidating place
- If you have a habit of locking your door from the inside, don't do it now
- If you are unsure if she is comfortable with that, try not to have her arrive as your first guest
- Cut back on the in jokes, nobody likes to be the one who doesn't get the jokes
- She knows she is a stranger, especially if all other players are regulars. Don't treat her as your best buddy or as if she has been part of the group forever - that is probably more creepy then helpful
- explain to her, in a non imposing way that because she is a new player, there might be misconceptions or disagreements and that you will do your best to help straighteneing them out if she wants that
Those measures will make it much more likely that she will speak up if you cross a line. If she becomes part of your group, of course, not all of the measures need to be maintained (if she know she can trust you she probably won't mind the LotR Sword hanging on your wall...)
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A woman who has been hurt will be handled with gentleness and infinite understanding. We get treated like we failed as men for letting it happen.Horse feathers. A woman who has been raped is very likely to be slut shamed, called dirty, accused of asking for it, disbelieved, vilified and usually made to be sorry she ever spoke up in the first place.
Yes, male victims of abuse and violence have their own very serious issues to deal with. They are real social issues and deserve addressing. But they don't invalidate the existence of female victims, and it is really inappropriate to try to invalidate the problems women face by saying that women have it easier and it's not fair.
None of this is fair. None of it. Rape and abuse and violence is intrinsically not fair. It should not have to happen to anyone. But it does, and it is NOT constructive to complain that it's worse when it happens to you and easier when it happens to someone else.
I wanted to comment on this (although I don't know if it is on topic but...)
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It's pretty reasonable that people might feel that they have a right of reply to your post without being edited, censored, or subject to gaslighting and dismissal and accusations of 'derailing'.
You're not being censored. You're being told it's a separate discussion, and your desire to discuss it doesn't mean that you get to prevent the OP and other posters from having the conversation they're trying to have in this thread because you'd rather have the discussion you want to have.
Take it elsewhere.
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Deathquaker: Your suggestions are good, but still too far from fool proof for me to try. Context and tone that I think mean one thing can seem to mean something completely different to women.
BigNorseWolf, social interaction is not foolproof. Period. I have gone up to people with the kindest intentions in the world and thought I did my very best to express those intentions, only to have someone scream at me for being a terrible person. Mind, most of those times was when I worked retail, but still. :)
If you avoid offering something out of respect and kindness, sure, you may avoid that person taking offense. But you also prevent that person from seeing your kindness and compassion. You may also avoid making a friend, or getting closer to an existing friend. And that is a very sad and unfortunate thing.
Also: women are not a hive mind. We are not constantly communicating to come to consensus about how we are going to react to any given thing a man--or woman--does. We, like men, are unique individuals who react to different situations in different ways. I am truly sorry if at some point at your life, women took an amicable offer you made as disrespectful or unwelcome. But that doesn't mean every woman will do that, and if there's anything "offensive" about what you've said, it's the implied assumption that what one woman will do, we all will. :) (<--note smileyface, I am not mad or actually offended.)
With women or men, you can never, ever, ever be absolutely certain how anyone is going to react at a given time. Fact of life that MUST be accepted to function. All you can do is be the best, compassionate, respectful person you can be. And the best people will see that in you and appreciate it.
I got two questions on this topic.
1) Compliments. From time to time after I get a haircut, or shave, or let my beard grow out I get compliments from women. So with women I know I naturaly will compliment them on a new haircut, etc. Of course I generally only do this for women I know. My question is why are they complimenting me? And is offensive to compliment them back?
2) Now I don't go to single bars...online dating sites spman the hell out of me so I never trust them. At work I perfer to keep things proffessional with my female co-workers. And I am also very shy when it comes to talking to women. The one type of women I can talk to is women who game probably because of the common interest. So if there is a woman at the table or the gaming store who I am attractive too...how do I approach her without offending her or causing her discomfort?
Anyway if these comments are off yopic please remove this post.
OH comment to....the question "How do we attract women to the gaming the table?" I find very similair to question of "how can we x person to the gaming table?" I really think it is a matter of being aware and sensitive to their needs and what they want out of a game. Really we are inviduals first...everybody has different line not to cross etc. So I really don't think there is a answear other than to listen and communicate with the person.
That being said it is helpful to include diversy people in the game print material. Also...I know past horrow stories are fun to tell...and we should not forget them...but I often wonder how many women(as a example) have been interested in gaming have come to this website and been turned off by these horror stories.
The Gaming industry has a long history of misogyny; I'm talking about the art works as well as examples like the "Damsel in distress" trope we see in many adventures (and video games that surround the RP industry). Step one is to recognize the issue, many people are willing to accept this, many are not, as we have seen through the example of Anita Sarkeesian and the violent backlash to her work, that Jessica Price highlighted in her interview. Sexism doesn't have to be overt direct discrimination, it can be subtle and easily missed by males, this is privilege, and examples of this can be seen in the Feminist Frequency blogs and youtube video. http://www.feministfrequency.com/ so I won't address them individually here. Step two maybe is to address the issue, possibly by looking at ourselves and our privileged positions within the gaming community as a whole (table top, video game, etc.), we are the target market for the VAST MAJORITY of the product that is produced, with a nod to the increasing numbers of female (and all genders) gamers. We can do our part by choosing to support products that are more progressive, because it isn't "just a game," it's media representation of gender and sex role, and these have an effect of reproducing how the current and next generation see the world. Be aware, continue to educate yourself and those around you, think critically. This isn’t a problem of perception, remember, the privileged whale says “I’m sorry you’re offended,” instead of “I’m sorry I offend you, I will refrain from such action in the future.”
On the topic of making gaming environments more friendly to women, here are some things I've learned about writing one-shot scenarios for convention games.
- Unless there's a valid story reason not to, have a reasonable distribution of male and female characters.
- Don't have one token female character.
- If you do have one token female character, do not automatically give it to the one female player at your table. Seriously. The amount of female gamers who've told me they were resigned to automatically getting "the female character" in these games is ridiculous.
- A lot of men are very resistant to playing female characters. This makes the problem worse, in some ways.
The best solution I've seen is to either write characters that are effectively genderless and have the players decide what gender their character is (provide at least two names if you need to name the characters beforehand), or to distribute characters randomly, and let the players know that you're fine with them changing a character's gender if they prefer to play them as male/female.
Also, be careful of gender-stereotyping. If you're writing a historically accurate-ish Dark Ages game where two characters are the lady of the castle and her maid, fine (though be sure the players are confortable in such restricted roles). If it's a Pathfinder scenario, there's no reason to have all-male melee fighters and all-female casters.
I got two questions on this topic.
1) Compliments. From time to time after I get a haircut, or shave, or let my beard grow out I get compliments from women. So with women I know I naturaly will compliment them on a new haircut, etc. Of course I generally only do this for women I know. My question is why are they complimenting me? And is offensive to compliment them back?
2)
1. Never compliment somebody on how they look in the workplace... When I have be asked "how do I look" I say to my colleague "confident and ready for this meeting or interview"... If pushed I say I don't feel its appropriate to comment on appearance in the work place.
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You're not being censored. You're being told it's a separate discussion, and your desire to discuss it doesn't mean that you get to prevent the OP and other posters from having the conversation they're trying to have in this thread because you'd rather have the discussion you want to have.
Take it elsewhere.
How is it a separate discussion when it is completely fairly and squarely in reply to a post that you yourself have made where you directly cite the subject and go into some detail on it?
If male privelige is NOT germane to this thread and is a derailment, could I kindly request that next time you are deleting posts on the subject that you include your own which was the catalyst for all those that followed? I have linked it above for your convenience.
I'm simply asking for consistency, and an end to the gaslighting.
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On the topic of creating female characters, I suggest you run the Bechdel Test on your adventures.
If you haven't heard of it, this "test" is a bit of a joke -- but it is often sadly failed by popular movies and books.
This is the test:
1. It has to have at least two [named] women in it
2. Who talk to each other
3. About something besides a man
Two women, who exist, and talk to each other, about stuff. Doesn't seem hard to fail, right? You'd be surprised.
Out of the top 100 movies in 2011, 11 had female protagonists. (Source. Great TED Talk to listen to, as well.) And you can be pretty damn sure many of the rest of the top 100 didn't pass the Bechdel Test either.
Creating female characters in your games that are not stereotypes and are people rather than plot points for the male characters is very important to retaining women's interest in our hobby, I believe.
Does speaking to female PCs count? Because otherwise it's quite hard to pass it when GM tries to avoid talking to oneself and accordingly minimizes amount of time NPCs talk to each other.
On the topic of creating female characters, I suggest you run the Bechdel Test on your adventures.
I would assume the female NPC's would engage in all sorts of chatter and intrigue, not the least of which would be how to conquer their neighbours, from time to time they might talk about men though, and sometimes that conversation would be about the benefits of an ok pver a pine coffin for said male, as is the want of any good matriarch when considering killing her rivals.
The Bechdel Test is pretty good, but there are a few valid reasons why some movies might fail it.
On the topic of creating female characters, I suggest you run the Bechdel Test on your adventures.I would assume the female NPC's would engage in all sorts of chatter and intrigue, not the least of which would be how to conquer their neighbours, from time to time they might talk about men though, and sometimes that conversation would be about the benefits of an ok pver a pine coffin for said male, as is the want of any good matriarch when considering killing her rivals.
The Bechdel Test is pretty good, but there are a few valid reasons why some movies might fail it.
Wow! "Chatter?" Conquering neighbors? Is this post a troll? Or a joke?
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I just saw a photo of Iggy Pop in dress and with handbag with note: "I'm not ashamed to dress 'like a woman' because I don't think it's shameful to be a woman". Nice one.
No, not Iggy, he's too old to show his shoulders and have too much wrinkles...
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If you avoid offering something out of respect and kindness, sure, you may avoid that person taking offense. But you also prevent that person from seeing your kindness and compassion. You may also avoid making a friend, or getting closer to an existing friend. And that is a very sad and unfortunate thing.
True, but its easier to wreck something than to make it. Saying nothing has never lead to a blow up.
I am truly sorry if at some point at your life, women took an amicable offer you made as disrespectful or unwelcome.
Don't worry about it, the handbag didn't hurt that much.
But that doesn't mean every woman will do that, and if there's anything "offensive" about what you've said, it's the implied assumption that what one woman will do, we all will. :) (<--note smileyface, I am not mad or actually offended.)
Case in point about the communication gap: You're reading in an assumption about an implication that I didn't put there. I can't recall ever having a guy do that to me in a real life conversation, its a fairly common occurrence for me when talking to women.
With women or men, you can never, ever, ever be absolutely certain how anyone is going to react at a given time.
No, but its much easier for me to predict another males reactions to most things because my reactions are probably similar. (or at least closer than they would be to most women).
I don't think this is just me. (if it is, the folks that wrote "the gamers" owe me some royalties)
Wow! "Chatter?" Conquering neighbors? Is this post a troll? Or a joke?
What is wrong with 'chatter'?
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How is it a separate discussion when it is completely fairly and squarely in reply to a post that you yourself have made where you directly cite the subject and go into some detail on it?If male privelige is NOT germane to this thread and is a derailment, could I kindly request that next time you are deleting posts on the subject that you include your own which was the catalyst for all those that followed? I have linked it above for your convenience.
I'm simply asking for consistency, and an end to the gaslighting.
Obviously, I can't talk for Jessica, but I suspect what she's trying to get across is that it's OK to talk about male privilege within the gaming industry and how it affects things within it.
What a lot of people seem to fail to realize is that by going, 'But no, men have bad things happen to them too! We need to talk about that!' is that you are, essentially, saying men's problems are a more important topic of discussion than women having such issues. Which is, you guessed it, a form of male privilege - the idea that our problems are more important, because they affect us.
Hence her constant mentioning of Bingo cards. They're pretty much tick lists for all the reason people, usually guys, bring up for why it's important that everyone understand that men suffer and often try to overtake topics like this.
The best example I have is that I was bullied for having red hair. Yeah. So I was abused for having a physical attribute that I had little or no control over. But compared to the stuff a person of colour will go through...it's just not the same kind of thing, it's not on the same level. And as much as it sucked for me as a kid, I can't claim, 'I got bullied for my hair, I know how a person of colour suffers'. At least not seriously.
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Obviously, I can't talk for Jessica, but I suspect what she's trying to get across is that it's OK to talk about male privilege within the gaming industry and how it affects things within it.
The problem is that once you put the 'social hand grenade' topic of male privilige into the conversation then it becomes fair game for others to reply to. It is pretty apparent that a lot of the posters reject the premise of male privilige in the first place, so the conversation has to get over that initial rejection well before it ever gets to whether or not the concept is evident in the gaming industry.
These guys aren't wanting to talk about mens issues, they aren't saying her experience was invalid, they are posting to say they disagree with the topic of conversation taht was raised around male privilige.
The topic was raised and developed upon by Jessica, and by bringing it to the table it became fair game for conversation.
If it was her intent to keep the conversation about keeping things decent at the gaming table for all the human beings in attendance, then I question why a treatise on male privilige was included.
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If it was her intent to keep the conversation about keeping things decent at the gaming table for all the human beings in attendance, then I question why a treatise on male privilige was included.
Because it's a part of what makes many tables, conventions, and other gaming venues so hostile or wretched towards female gamers.
It's part of the problem, and has a direct effect on how bad behavior happens and how it slips under the radar so much.
For those that wish to discuss about gender politics in our daily life, I'd actually suggest posting here so we don't derail this topic from Gender in the Gaming Industry.
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The topic is sexism in gaming and how you reduce it. Privilege is an artefact of any kind of institutionalised discrimination, in this case, institutionalised sexism.
Trying to argue that male privilege doesn't exist is derailing from the main topic (entirely about women and the problems they face and how to deal with that) and reframing it to be about men (we have problems too!) It also strongly implies that institutionalised sexism doesn't exist. Hence, derailment bingo!
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I'd say that the vast majority are well-intentioned, but also kind of oblivious to stuff that goes on sometimes right in front of them.
There's a really good essay on privilege by John Scalzi here. In it, he compares life to an MMORPG, and explains that privilege is like getting to play on a lower difficulty setting than everyone else.
I'd take it further, though. Not only are the rewards better and the challenges easier for playing on a lower difficulty setting, but some of the monsters other people are fighting are invisible to you..."Hey, why should she get help? I handled my zombies just fine by myself!"
I don't think guys who are oblivious to sexism in their workplace are bad people. I don't think guys who see sexism in their workplace and assume that, since they're not actively participating in it, it's not their problem are bad people. I think they are doing what's natural. But I do think that environments where women are rare create places and teams that, if not hostile, are often tone-deaf to and about women and the challenges...
I think people are often seeing things as they wish to see them and actively looking for offense you will find it. As for privilege and 'difficulty settings' I don't think that anyone is able to judge or say with any authority who has things easier; I was raised in a poor, unstable, yet loving household with angrily divorced parents and am a white male. Is my DC for life less than yours or do I have to fight ethereal filchers and zombies while you fight a host of undead? My hard work to overcome my own troubles in no way makes up for any other persons trouble or inability to conquer them
Having worked in male-centric careers most of my life, military and corrections, I could not disagree more with the rare women comments. To say 1 to 10 is the ratio would be generous in both cases. I would rather say that most of the women I work with are so empowered they DEMAND respect and are assertive about securing equality. Most them even recognize that the difference of the sexes exist and each has their strong points. Most of the guys I work with are not toned out and indeed step hard to those that think the women I've worked with are weaker or made for derision. I would even say that in both cases management was the driving force behind the equality not the employees. If it exists in the gaming industry then be a force for change, don't allow for defeat and if the managers won't back your play find a lawyer who would love to. The average guy I work(ed) with has a HS diploma and might possess a few credits of junior college. It doesn't take learning to make a respectful male it takes training.
Over the 20 years of gaming I've gamed with women and girls regularly in home games, con-games and society style play. A few of them have been inappropriate and some of the guys have been inappropriate. Poor behavior is a personality trait, not a trait of the sexes. One of the most awkward moments at my table was between two guys; one play was excited to beat the BBEG and wanted high fives, the other guy was distracted and missed the high five. Guy 1 high fived guy 2's forehead in his boisterousness. Stunned silence surrounded the table and those two players have stayed in their separate groups since. We even had a girl who thought inner wear was outer wear. We lost two players due to her dress mode; the religious guy who was offended and her because we asked her to tone down the dress. She refused and he didn't want to have breasts thrown in his face (IDK either!?) so he stopped attending and she got upset with us for our request of the middle ground of appropriate dress.
I truly believe there are people who live to be offended and those that live to offend. In my opinion neither one should get away with it.
On the topic of creating female characters, I suggest you run the Bechdel Test on your adventures.
If you haven't heard of it, this "test" is a bit of a joke -- but it is often sadly failed by popular movies and books.
This is the test:
1. It has to have at least two [named] women in it
2. Who talk to each other
3. About something besides a manTwo women, who exist, and talk to each other, about stuff. Doesn't seem hard to fail, right? You'd be surprised.
Alright, can points #2 and #3 be better adapted to the gaming table?
The topic is sexism in gaming and how you reduce it.
A good topic of conversation, and glad to see it being had.
Some argue that the privilege exists, some argue that it doesn't. For you to simply state that one side can bring it up as an inalienable fact, and that the other side arguing the point that they don't see it like you do and are being irrational/pariahs and out of line is highly unjust.
If it's on the table then it is reasonable to expect it is open to debate.
You'll note that not one of those arguing against the concept of privilege are saying there is no sexism at the tables, not one is denouncing the OP or the article as being 'wrong', and all are on the same mission to improve relations and accessibility of gaming for everyone. They are arguing against a comment made and developed upon, and should be entitled to argue against something they feel has been unfairly and unjustly applied to them.
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The best example I have is that I was bullied for having red hair.
I've only recently learned just how bad red haired people can have it.
Contributor
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In terms of male privilege, it seems like we could reframe it a little as "male territoriality" in gaming. Assuming that the default set up for fantasy gaming - as medieval fantasy with medieval gender relations - is a part of gaming culture that belongs there, is part of what I'm talking about. Even if you want that sort of world, there are more nuanced approaches; i.e., Ars Magica doesn't seem very female hostile.
But "traditional tabletop gaming" often does... Why?
Because it's how guys have always done it?
Now, I get that to a lot of geeks, gaming is a defining activity, one they feel they have protect like other subcultures protect football from cultural change. But women enjoy sports too, and sometimes the whole "girls get out" thing feels very 6 years old.
To me, male privilege in this case has to do with the assumption that being asked to change or accommodate women beyond offering a chair at the table is somehow an imposition. It's not. It's a way for all gamers to keep learning and keep sharing and end up as better people. It's great to hear from different kinds of people about themselves and level up as social humans.
How about: here's an awesome way to our game better. We're all invited.
In terms of male privilege, it seems like we could reframe it a little as "male territoriality" in gaming.
I think we could all get on board with that one Jeff!
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Alright, can points #2 and #3 be better adapted to the gaming table?
Mostly it would relate to the background because of the focus on the PCs in an adventure. But it can serve well to think about it when you're making NPCs.
1. Does the adventure have at least two named, reasonably important female NPCs? (i.e. someone with as much a presence as Sheila Heidmarch, Ameiko Kaijitsu...)
2. Would the two female NPCs have reason to talk to each other (potentially off-screen)?
3. Is that reason unrelated to a man (including the PCs)?
So, for example, in RotRL, Ameiko is friends with Shalelu and it's likely they would meet up whenever the latter is in town and talk about various things. This has the added benefit of allowing Ameiko to give the PCs rumours about the Sandpoint hinterlands ("I heard from my friend Shalelu that...") and a good reason for the PCs to meet Shalelu in the Rusty Dragon one day (because she's there to visit her good friend). It creates more three-dimensional characters and increases the world's verisimilitude. And it also means that you won't have the one obligatory female love interest and the rest of the important NPCs are all men.
Well, BigNorseWolf, you absolutely proved me right that a person can say something intending to be kind and be entirely misread and misinterpreted.
But absolutely I don't regret trying, and I hope I never will. :) Have a good night.
To the discussion at large, the Bechdel Test stuff is really interesting, and it's fascinating to see it applied to NPC design.
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I'm really not interested in arguing about whether men are on the receiving end of sexism outside of the game industry. As I noted in my post, I think there are ways that our society is sexist against men.
But you know what isn't sexist against men? The game industry. I'm hard-pressed to think of an industry that caters more to straight men. It's enthusiastically, defiantly, and often militantly misogynistic. Which is what this thread is about. I did an interview about what it's like to be a woman in the game industry, which currently is an experience that includes, for most of us (at least most of us who have worked at large game companies): harassment, dismissal, gender policing, outright objectification, and so on. And the person who started this thread asked how to make women feel more comfortable in game environments.
That is what this thread is about. If you want to talk about how hard white men have it, go somewhere else and do it, because you are way off topic.
And many of you are helping me win Derailment Bingo. I hate winning Derailment Bingo.
Jessica, I really wanted to comment on this post of yours, specifically, the 2nd paragraph. You jump right from "the game industry caters to straight men" (which I'd say is true because that is their customer base and any industry needs to please its customer base) to "It's enthusiastically, defiantly, and often militantly misogynistic," which I disagree with. Do you feel those 2 things are identical or equivalent, or that one must follow the other? It certainly seems so, as you went from one to the next as though it were the same thing. They very definitely are NOT the same thing.
Aiming a product at its identified customer demographics is smart business. Being "enthusiastically and militantly" hateful toward half the population has nothing to do with business, and in fact would probably be very harmful toward your business.
There are numerous industries targeted and marketed toward girls and women, do you believe that they must therefor be misandrist as well? I don't feel they are, not on that basis alone. They would need to do something well beyond marketing or creating products designed to appeal to girls with little or no effort taken to make it also appealing to boys.
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I like the Bechdel test idea.
Now, I'm writing a 3pp sandbox style adventure. I have a lot of female NPCs (50/50). Still, a lot of their gamed out interactions are going to be with the PCs. They do have built-in associations and reactions about and to other women (and also men), but the style of the adventure tends to prevent pre-scripted dialogue. It's just too unpredictable. There are random tables to generate when you encounter people and their context. Is what we're looking for a sense of the wider plot points being tied their lives (clues like letters being from one woman to another?) or perhaps simply noting that so and so is the sister in law of another character and this relationship affects both of them - if something happens to one or the other?
What is wrong with 'chatter'?
Wow! "Chatter?" Conquering neighbors? Is this post a troll? Or a joke?
Cultural difference - chatter is talking, having a chat, and what's the chatter, are neutral terms in Australian English. On the otherhand in British English the Chattering Classes is a class attack on the middle to lower classes. I am not sure what the connotation is in US English.
I am still waiting with much interest on his reply though, it seemed to be some kind of attack he was launching, and I would be very keen to hear him outline against what specifically he was taking offence to.
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What is wrong with 'chatter'?
Wow! "Chatter?" Conquering neighbors? Is this post a troll? Or a joke?
Cultural difference - chatter is talking, having a chat, and what's the chatter, are neutral terms in Australian English. On the otherhand in British English the Chattering Classes is a class attack on the middle to lower classes. I am not sure what the connotation is in US English.
Chattering means meaningless conversation in the US. A "chat" doesn't read so negatively, but sometimes seems to be a euphemism for a "difficult conversation." A Chatroom can be a place for social interaction rather than professional. So it does carry a bad connotation.
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I like the Bechdel test idea.
So, is there a similar test in romance novels that asks are there 2 men who talk to each other and don't talk about women? Because romance novels are aimed at a female audience, and the men in them are only there as foils and playthings for the women, often not as fully realized and independent characters with wants and desires of their own unrelated to the female protagonist(s).
It's fine and good that you want to include such female characters in your games, and I do so as well most of the time. Our group, despite having all male players at the moment, is nearly always 50% female characters.
The best example I have is that I was bullied for having red hair.I've only recently learned just how bad red haired people can have it.
Try being fat and having red hair.
The words do truffle shuffle you fat little red headed rat rooter, are etched into my brain.
Chattering means meaningless conversation in the US. A "chat" doesn't read so negatively, but sometimes seems to be a euphemism for a "difficult conversation." A Chatroom can be a place for social interaction rather than professional. So it does carry a bad connotation.
As I say, I am awaiting his reply most keenly.
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What is wrong with 'chatter'?
Wow! "Chatter?" Conquering neighbors? Is this post a troll? Or a joke?
Cultural difference - chatter is talking, having a chat, and what's the chatter, are neutral terms in Australian English. On the otherhand in British English the Chattering Classes is a class attack on the middle to lower classes. I am not sure what the connotation is in US English.
It's often considered a dismissive term for "women's talk", aka idle gossip and conversation about "unimportant" things like women's interests.
The implication is that men discuss, talk and deliberate while women chat, gossip and natter. Men talk about sports, women chat about boys and glitter and I don't know... Stickers?
I'm sure that's not what was meant but it speaks to the gendering of language. Often unconscious but insidious.
What is wrong with 'chatter'?
Wow! "Chatter?" Conquering neighbors? Is this post a troll? Or a joke?
Cultural difference - chatter is talking, having a chat, and what's the chatter, are neutral terms in Australian English. On the otherhand in British English the Chattering Classes is a class attack on the middle to lower classes. I am not sure what the connotation is in US English.
It's often considered a dismissive term for "women's talk", aka idle gossip and conversation about "unimportant" things like women's interests.
The implication is that men discuss, talk and deliberate while women chat, gossip and natter. Men talk about sports, women chat about boys and glitter and I don't know... Stickers?
I'm sure that's not what was meant but it speaks to the gendering of language. Often unconscious but insidious.
What on this blue earth? I use the word chatter and chat all the time. Heck TERRORISTS chatter. They use it all the time on the news! "Increased Terrorist chatter" is a term the US government uses!
Alright, can points #2 and #3 be better adapted to the gaming table?Mostly it would relate to the background because of the focus on the PCs in an adventure. But it can serve well to think about it when you're making NPCs.
1. Does the adventure have at least two named, reasonably important female NPCs? (i.e. someone with as much a presence as Sheila Heidmarch, Ameiko Kaijitsu...)
2. Would the two female NPCs have reason to talk to each other (potentially off-screen)?
3. Is that reason unrelated to a man (including the PCs)?
So, for example, in RotRL, Ameiko is friends with Shalelu and it's likely they would meet up whenever the latter is in town and talk about various things. This has the added benefit of allowing Ameiko to give the PCs rumours about the Sandpoint hinterlands ("I heard from my friend Shalelu that...") and a good reason for the PCs to meet Shalelu in the Rusty Dragon one day (because she's there to visit her good friend). It creates more three-dimensional characters and increases the world's verisimilitude. And it also means that you won't have the one obligatory female love interest and the rest of the important NPCs are all men.
Hmmm ... this logic also would apply to a Male Player creating a female character. While he cannot control the gender balance of the party, he could think about the character in the most three dimensional sense possible.