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I found an interview with Paizo Project Manager Jessica Price online where she discussed how gaming and the gaming industry is growing less sexist. I found the interview to be very interesting, even if I was a bit distressed by some of the things that Price went through in the gaming industry -- including sexual harassment, sexist remarks and assumptions that she and other female managers were receptionists.
In the interview, Price shared several of her experiences with employers and co-workers. She noted that there attitudes are changing, both in terms of how female employees and managers are treated at companies nad how games portray women. As someone who started out with AD&D a long time ago, I found the article to be refreshing in that we are seeing better treatment for women and female characters in games. (I remember the strength limits on female characters, a lot of cheesecake art, and other things that made me shake my head.) There were usually female gamers in most of my early groups, and I think that most were as happy with their experiences as their male counterparts.
How are attitudes changing? I would like to see RPGs and other games grow, and I think our tables have to be open to everyone. There are some female gamers in my local Pathfinder Society group and I think that they feel welcome. One thing that I do like that Paizo has done is to have strong female characters who are not stereotypes.
So, how do we make our tables friendly for female gamers, as well as everyone else? How has Paizo and other publishers tried to show that attitudes are changing, both in terms of products and (more importantly) what happens at their companies? Personally I find that Paizo has strong female characters in their products. (For example, all of the female iconics are as competent as their male counterparts. Female leaders of countries and organizations are commonplace.)
(Moderators: Feel free to move this thread if it is in the wrong forum. Also, I hesitated to use the name of the magazine with Price's interview, just in case someone would have a problem with the name of the publication.)
Linky not working. Try this
Take 2. Something in the way they have the link set up makes the url not work correctly.
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How to make the table friendlier for female players?
Don't talk about the woman's clothing. The teenage daughter of a friend of mine in the biz joined a gaming group that was all teenage boys. Eventually she was told that she wasn't allowed to wear tight clothing to the game because it was distracting. Eventually she was told that she wasn't allowed to wear loose-fitting clothing because it was distracting (not loose-fitting as in "I can see down your shirt," just regular clothes). Seriously.
Don't talk about the woman's appearance. It's not relevant to the game, and she almost certainly isn't doing anything to her appearance because she wants you to complement her.
Don't make rape an element of the campaign. At a "DM horror stories" panel one year, a female gamer said the DM had her female character raped and impregnated by drow elves and she was forced to carry the pregnancy to term.
Don't make sexual harassment a part of the campaign. NPCs don't need to hit on the female player's character just because she's there.
Don't make sex or birth control a part of the campaign. If the female player wants her character to have anything to do with that, she'll let you know. Her gender is not an excuse to introduce it. This also means don't mind-control her character, don't put her character in situations where she'd be drunk with a man.
Don't create a promiscuous pregen character for the female player. If she wants to play a promiscuous character, she'll make that choice.
The above goes for the players as well as the GM. Don't let the other players introduce any of the above to the campaign. If the GM has a barbarian in the inn grope a female player character, the GM is a jerk. If a fellow player has his character grope a female player character, that player is a jerk.
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How to make the table friendlier for female players?
Don't talk about the woman's clothing. The teenage daughter of a friend of mine in the biz joined a gaming group that was all teenage boys. Eventually she was told that she wasn't allowed to wear tight clothing to the game because it was distracting. Eventually she was told that she wasn't allowed to wear loose-fitting clothing because it was distracting (not loose-fitting as in "I can see down your shirt," just regular clothes). Seriously.
Don't talk about the woman's appearance. It's not relevant to the game, and she almost certainly isn't doing anything to her appearance because she wants you to complement her.
Don't make rape an element of the campaign. At a "DM horror stories" panel one year, a female gamer said the DM had her female character raped and impregnated by drow elves and she was forced to carry the pregnancy to term.
Don't make sexual harassment a part of the campaign. NPCs don't need to hit on the female player's character just because she's there.
Don't make sex or birth control a part of the campaign. If the female player wants her character to have anything to do with that, she'll let you know. Her gender is not an excuse to introduce it. This also means don't mind-control her character, don't put her character in situations where she'd be drunk with a man.
Don't create a promiscuous pregen character for the female player. If she wants to play a promiscuous character, she'll make that choice.
The above goes for the players as well as the GM. Don't let the other players introduce any of the above to the campaign. If the GM has a barbarian in the inn grope a female player character, the GM is a jerk. If a fellow player has his character grope a female player character, that player is a jerk.
Sean, very good advice. A rule that I have is don't be a jerk at the table. A key consideration that I have in treating others is to consider how I would feel if I was treated the same way.
Another thing that should not be done is to presume that a female player is not familiar with the rules of the game. (It is one thing to help a novice player. It is one thing to presume that someone because of age or gender is a novice.)
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I think the link won't work because the profanity filter censors the name of the magazine. :-)
To be clear: the interview was about sexism in the industry, so that's what we talked about. It's possible to come away with the impression that I think every guy in the industry is most likely a sexist jerk or a harasser, and that's not the case. Most of the guys I've worked with are nice guys. I'd say that the vast majority are well-intentioned, but also kind of oblivious to stuff that goes on sometimes right in front of them.
There's a really good essay on privilege by John Scalzi here. In it, he compares life to an MMORPG, and explains that privilege is like getting to play on a lower difficulty setting than everyone else.
I'd take it further, though. Not only are the rewards better and the challenges easier for playing on a lower difficulty setting, but some of the monsters other people are fighting are invisible to you. You may look, if you are playing on the lowest difficulty setting, at the black woman over there and think she's fighting two zombies, just like you, and wonder, "What the hell? I'm having an easy time fighting my two zombies! Why is she struggling?"
What you can't see is that she's also fighting a lich and a couple harpies. They're invisible to you, because they're not part of your difficulty setting. So when she asks for help, it is extremely natural to think, "Hey, why should she get help? I handled my zombies just fine by myself!"
I don't think guys who are oblivious to sexism in their workplace are bad people. I don't think guys who see sexism in their workplace and assume that, since they're not actively participating in it, it's not their problem are bad people. I think they are doing what's natural. But I do think that environments where women are rare create places and teams that, if not hostile, are often tone-deaf to and about women and the challenges they face in male-dominated environments.
And here's the thing: you can learn to see those enemies that are invisible to you. And you should try. Whether it's a question of race, class, gender, orientation, or whatever, you can learn to see more of what other people are fighting. It's up to you whether you want to ask them if they need a hand. It's up to you, if you see a formerly-invisible harpy sniffing around, looking for prey, if you want to shoot the thing. We all need to pick our battles. But I think we should all do what we can to learn to at least see them, not for other people but for us. Empathy is, at its core, observation, emotional fluency, and imagination, and it can make you a badass as well as a better person.
I think there are a few minor things that people can do to make the environment feel less hostile for people who aren't like them, as well as some bigger things people can try if they're up for it, but I need to get back to work at the moment, so I'll post those thoughts later.
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While sexism in regards to women is commonly acknowledged. Sexism as a bias against men is equally real, and enshrined in law. I cannot, as a single man, adopt children of either gender, and my interactions with children in general are much more restricted. A liability class for male educators was very effective in making me terrified of touching a child or being in the same room with one. The treatment of male teachers in the areas I have lived seems to have proved me right. So remember, sexism isn't just a problem for women, it's a problem for everyone.
Most of my players are women, and have been from the beginning. All of us are friends, either before or due to playing together. For most of the things Sean mentioned, it falls into the general categories of 'What are people comfortable with?' and 'Don't be a jerk.' The presence of female players shouldn't preclude sexual content in a game anymore than it should encourage it.
In my kingmaker game, one the characters was reincarnated as a centaur is a preparing to get adopted into the Nomen tribe, part of which is deciding who her mate will be. The player really likes it and is looking forward to seeing how her character does in proving herself to potential mates, and potentially being chosen by the chieftainess' husband. Sex and romance isn't bad. Just be tactful.
There is a point of where I disagree with Sean though, and that is talking about appearance. If someone comes to group looking nicer than usual, we mention it. My friends, with one exception, are physicists or engineers and are generally tired of being treated like 'one of the guys'. As my sister put it, "Do I look like a guy? Then don't treat me like one." If they have made an effort to look nice, they want it acknowledged, so compliment them.
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Whether or not you complement people on their appearance is going to be a context dependent thing. If you know the people, and know how they like you to respond to them, that's one thing. But, when in doubt, suspect that a bunch of guys talking about a woman's appearance at the gaming table is probably going to be creepy.
I do have to admit my gaming group would occasionally complement another gamer's appearance. This one guy would occasionally come straight from work, wearing a coat and tie. Not your typical gaming attire, and we would remark on it....
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While sexism in regards to women is commonly acknowledged. Sexism as a bias against men is equally real, and enshrined in law. I cannot, as a single man, adopt children of either gender, and my interactions with children in general are much more restricted.
That may be true, but this conversation is about gaming, and in the gaming world, sexism against men is rare because men are overwhelmingly the majority at most companies, most conventions, most websites, etc. Talking about how men are affected by sexism outside the gaming world seems like a derailment.
Most of my players are women, and have been from the beginning. All of us are friends, either before or due to playing together. For most of the things Sean mentioned, it falls into the general categories of 'What are people comfortable with?' and 'Don't be a jerk.' The presence of female players shouldn't preclude sexual content in a game anymore than it should encourage it.
And ultimately, that's 95% of what making a gaming environment welcoming to both genders consists of. Just don't be a jerk.
In my kingmaker game, one the characters was reincarnated as a centaur is a preparing to get adopted into the Nomen tribe, part of which is deciding who her mate will be.
But that's okay because you know and are friends with the player. If I was told that, because I was female, I had to choose a mate and male characters didn't, that would be the last time we played together.
There is a point of where I disagree with Sean though, and that is talking about appearance. If someone comes to group looking nicer than usual, we mention it. My friends, with one exception, are physicists or engineers and are generally tired of being treated like 'one of the guys'. As my sister put it, "Do I look like a guy? Then don't treat me like one." If they have made an effort to look nice, they want it acknowledged, so compliment them.
Again, that's not universal -- that's something that's a case-by-case basis. The default however, if you don't know a woman well, should be to refrain from commenting on her appearance generally. If you've been playing together a while, and one night she comes in super-dressed-up, of course it's normal to comment on it just like it would be if one of your male players comes in in a suit.
But until you know her and what's normal for her, you should treat her with the same courtesy you extend to your male players. If you don't regularly comment on their appearances, you shouldn't comment on hers.
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In my gaming group, we've had a female in it since it's inception. And let me tell you, her characters are not to be trifled with. :p
GURPS cyberpunk campaign: Couldn't seem to hit the broad side of a barn with a revolver, but behind a computer terminal, she could make you wish she had shot you instead.
Pathfinder campaign: Her character's sword wasn't nicknamed "Beheader" for no reason!
Basically, this is a foolproof plan; treat females like an other player. Don't show favoritism towards her. Don't blow her off. Treat her as an equal at the table, and you'll be just fine.
Also, I think that's sound advice for non-gaming as well.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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My wife was one of the people who shared one of my first role play experiences, back when we were 12. We play in a weekly game together still.
I have had many female players in the groups I have played with. I would like to think that I was an enjoyable person to play with. In the games I run, sex is an off limits subject unless a player brings it up to me as something they want their character to address. One male player took it a bit far and I had to ask him to tone it down, and one female player actually did take things to far enough for me to refuse to play with her again. The male was hitting on everything, and was constantly asking if he could bed NPCs. (He actually hit on a lich too, just because. He still plays PFS with me and has dropped the sexual RP.) The female player went too far with graphic drawings she did while gaming, and being a bit too obscene in her language and RP. She did not stop when I asked her to.
Only a couple times have I felt like I was being sexually harassed, but none of those times were while gaming. Those cases helped me know what it feels like, and why it is wrong. It doesn't feel good, and it isn't fun or sexy.
Sexism is just one form of prejudice. Prejudice of any kind is wrong. Christians of many denominations, Jews, Atheists, Pagans, Wiccans, Buddists, and Muslims have all sat at my table. One current player believes in the Norse gods. I have played with people from rich, poor, and middle classes. I have rolled dice with the blind, the lame, and the slightly autistic. Every skin color has been represented in the groups I have played with. Intellectuals with degrees and hard working blue collars have been together in my games. Straight, lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender were all there too.
At the table, we are equals. If we do not treat each other like equals, I have a policy that people are free to speak up and tell me and the whole group about an issue without judgement and punishment. I also have a personal policy to do my best to be in the best mood when I game, be a friend to all fellow players, and to treat them with respect. Have I been true to my own policy the entire time? No, unfortunately I have been a jerk to people and I have had to apologize and work to repair those relationships.
One personal experience of prejudice against me related to gaming. One player, who was going through a hard time and a big change due to their sexual identity, assumed that I would treat them differently and with prejudice due to my religion. They were respectful to me personally, but stopped gaming with my group. They made a few Facebook posts bashing my religion, claiming that everyone who belonged to it were intolerant and bigoted. It took time, patience, and love for me to convince them otherwise, and we are good friends to this day. They were emotional to discover how accepting I could be, and how their assumptions about me were wrong. I look forward to playing with them again should the opportunity arise.
The lesson, don't assume things about people, give them a chance, and treat them as equals. Never deny kindness, because you never know when you will need it the most yourself.
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How to make the table friendlier for female players?
First, I want to say that the PFS tables I've played at have been very friendly to both genders and all ages. I appreciate the number and quality of female NPCs in the Paizo products. As a player, I haven't experienced any issues with sexism in PFS. (I have had issues in the past in fantasy RPGs and at conventions, and this has been a welcome development. I have no reservations about letting my teenaged daughter play PFS by herself: I am confident that she will be treated with the exact same respect as every other player at the table.)
The main place sexism has its strongest hold is in character art. There are still a lot of female characters in chainmail bikinis, and Nualia's breastplate in RoTRL only covers her actual breasts. The poses of the female characters is another issue. There's a lot of body cants and pin-up poses, even in characters in full armor. Comparing male and female versions of the same character class is an enlightening exercise.
To be fair, sexism in fantasy, sci-fi, and superhero art is pervasive, and Paizo does a much better job with character artwork than most publishers. The problem, I think, is that the "classic" fantasy art was sexist in the extreme, and unfortunately, that became be the foundation of the genre. Even when an artist consciously tries to modernize the style and tone down the sexism, there's still a lot remaining in the final work.
Still, I think Paizo has brought the fantasy RPG genre a long way, and Pathfinder is well ahead of even a lot of mainstream media when it comes to treating female characters (and players) like actual people.
And I'm really thankful for that.
The lesson, don't assume things about people, give them a chance, and treat them as equals. Never deny kindness, because you never know when you will need it the most yourself.
I don't know. I know I make assumptions... Namely my default mode is to assume that when interacting with people in gaming, on the internet, or in flesh that they don't believe, think, or act as I do. So I act according to that.
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This also means don't mind-control her character
I'm going to slightly disagree here. Don't single her character out for mind control simply because she's a female. But, on the other hand, don't exclude her from a villain's attempts to mind control the party simply because she's a female either. That too is sexism.
This also means don't mind-control her characterI'm going to slightly disagree here. Don't single her character out for mind control simply because she's a female. But, on the other hand, don't exclude her from a villain's attempts to mind control the party simply because she's a female either. That too is sexism.
I'm pretty sure the context of that quote means: Don't mind-control her character as a vehicle to introduce sex into the game. Which should pretty much go without saying.
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I'm pretty sure the context of that quote means: Don't mind-control her character as a vehicle to introduce sex into the game. Which should pretty much go without saying.
It's not just that. It's, Don't make assumptions about what her character would or must do.
I was once starting a new game, and the GM had one PC sitting in a tavern when the prime antagonist started harassing the barmaid so the PC stepped up to defend her. After the jerk with the roving hands had been sent packing, the GM turned to me and said, "Okay, you can go ahead and join in, Joana. The barmaid is your PC."
"Excuse me? No, it's not. She's not a barmaid."
"Well, it's been a while since her last adventure. She has to do something to pay for her room and board."
"If that were my PC, she would have drawn her own weapon and defended herself instead of letting some loser paw her."
"Well, no, she really needs this job. It's better to put up with sexual harassment than to be on the streets."
"So you're saying my PC's only options are working in a bar or prostitution? She's a freaking fifth-level fighter! You don't think the city guard would be happy to have her?"
I was so mad, he eventually retconned the barmaid to being an NPC and let me introduce my character another way, but he never got why I was so offended by it.
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I'll admit, a lot of this advice, especially when it comes to sex and what not blows my mind. Is the default state that sex and sexuality are presented in such a juvenile and/or misongynistic fashion that it needs to be verboten at many tables? Why would anyone, man or woman, game with people so immature that the things Sean and the others are giving as 'advice' even need to be stated to begin with?
I'm pretty sure the context of that quote means: Don't mind-control her character as a vehicle to introduce sex into the game.
I mean what kind of jackass would even do this? It just seems to me that so much of the stuff described in this thread goes beyond simple ignorance of privilege and into the realm of full-blown deliberate misogyny.
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While in college (twenty years ago) a women joined our group. I asked her once why she always played male characters in the game. She said it was because in her past experiences, the other players would sexually abuse her characters when they were unconscious or whatever.
F-ing WOW! was all I could say. Hopefully that was just immaturity and they grew out of it; otherwise, really scary! She was an outstanding player and really rounded out the group. We never could get her to play a female. I always thought that was unfortunate because she was writing a story about a knight who was the Lady of a manor and her herald, a commoner soldier and how in the end, they never got the chance to say how they felt about each other. We knew that was the character she wanted to play (she told us)but could not let her guard down. We all lost out there.
I will not tolerate people being excluded or bullied around in any venue where I'm aware of it. Awareness of the problem is only part of it though. Having the courage to stand up for what is right is something we should expect of ourselves as well.
Andy
I mean what kind of jackass would even do this? It just seems to me that so much of the stuff described in this thread goes beyond simple ignorance of privilege and into the realm of full-blown deliberate misogyny.
But a lot of the time it isn't deliberate misogyny at all. Be sure to read Joana's post above yours in the thread.
Most of the time it's probably just insensitivity colliding with someone who has been sensitized to it, either by personal experience or by study. What one player may tolerate, another may not. Hence, it's better to start out sensitive to the issues. Some women coming up to the table wouldn't mind if you complimented her appearance, some may even court it, particularly if elaborately costumed like at a convention with a lot of cosplayers. But it's better to be sensitive to the fact that something like that may have been a vehicle for workplace sexual harassment for this particular player.
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Thank you for the responses Jessica, and apologies for introducing a off-topic element.
Overall I'm with Xexyz, that people would feel the need to post most of this advise bothers and confuses me. I'm never heard of a game where problems like this occurred. Seriously, lewd or misogynistic behavior is totally foreign to my gaming experience.
As the Dudemeister says, be excellent.
Aside, why would complimenting someone on their appearance be considered harassment or offensive?
I suspect and hope that a lot these horror stories date back both to earlier days of the hobby, when it really was dominated by social misfits, and to actual immature people, teens who really just didn't know how to interact with women.
I suspect a lot of it still goes on. Teenagers aren't that different from 30-40 years ago. Sensitivity to things like this takes time to develop and is often learned through experience with adults, particularly in mixed sex environments.
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While in college (twenty years ago) a women joined our group. I asked her once why she always played male characters in the game. She said it was because in her past experiences, the other players would sexually abuse her characters when they were unconscious or whatever.
F-ing WOW! was all I could say. Hopefully that was just immaturity and they grew out of it; otherwise, really scary! She was an outstanding player and really rounded out the group. We never could get her to play a female. I always thought that was unfortunate because she was writing a story about a knight who was the Lady of a manor and her herald, a commoner soldier and how in the end, they never got the chance to say how they felt about each other. We knew that was the character she wanted to play (she told us)but could not let her guard down. We all lost out there.
I will not tolerate people being excluded or bullied around in any venue where I'm aware of it. Awareness of the problem is only part of it though. Having the courage to stand up for what is right is something we should expect of ourselves as well.
Andy
When I gamed in college this happened to a female character of mine. I had played male and female characters since I was a kid, always depending on the specific story I wanted to tell, but with other groups.
I felt personally violated and betrayed. I don't doubt that would not have happened to a male character.
Teenagers aren't that different, but I think the subset that games might be. If girls are more common in the hobby, that in itself makes a difference.I suspect a lot of it still goes on. Teenagers aren't that different from 30-40 years ago. Sensitivity to things like this takes time to develop and is often learned through experience with adults, particularly in mixed sex environments.I suspect and hope that a lot these horror stories date back both to earlier days of the hobby, when it really was dominated by social misfits, and to actual immature people, teens who really just didn't know how to interact with women.
I don't disagree that getting more girls into gaming accelerates the process of making things better. It's part of that learning process all teens go through in which, hopefully, they learn better empathy and how to stop bullying each other as they encounter and interact with people different from themselves in an increasingly mature manner.
But I'm reasonably certain that social misfits and immature people still game and still often do so in environments devoid of girls.
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But a lot of the time it isn't deliberate misogyny at all. Be sure to read Joana's post above yours in the thread.
Most of the time it's probably just insensitivity colliding with someone who has been sensitized to it, either by personal experience or by study. What one player may tolerate, another may not. Hence, it's better to start out sensitive to the issues. Some women coming up to the table wouldn't mind if you complimented her appearance, some may even court it, particularly if elaborately costumed like at a convention with a lot of cosplayers. But it's better to be sensitive to the fact that something like that may have been a vehicle for workplace sexual harassment for this particular player.
I did read Joana's post and I was floored. What she described anyone who's GM'd more than five minutes would know never to do unless they wanted to lose a player. That the GM apparently thought because the player was a woman that she would just accept such blatant unfair treatment goes beyond mere insensitivity or ignorance and into the realm of serious sexist and/or misogynistic attitudes.
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I suspect and hope that a lot these horror stories date back both to earlier days of the hobby, when it really was dominated by social misfits, and to actual immature people, teens who really just didn't know how to interact with women.
It was much, much worse in the earlier days, you are correct. And it is still worse when immature people are involved.
However, there are global issues with misogyny and sexism that still pervade most cultures to some degree. The US can say "We don't force girls to start wearing burqas at the age of 11", but there is still a large percentage of our population that spends their fretting about their daughters' "modesty" (Including articles like "Is your 8 year old showing too much belly?"--I wish I were kidding). Technically, we don't "force" women to end their careers when they start a family, but on average, women still end up doing most of the work of raising children, and the unspoken assumption is that if someone has to stop working to take care of a relative (from young child to aging parent), it will be the wife rather than the husband. Et cetera, ad nauseum.
But the underlying issue is that "interacting with women" is still assumed to be somehow different from "interacting with people". As long as women are thought of as some kind of alien species, you'll always have this problem. (Feel free to insert any other minority group into that sentence, if you like. The same principle applies.)
I think the "don't be a jerk" maxim is the best one by far, and if you add "treat everyone like people" to that, you'll cover nearly every possible issue.
I suspect and hope that a lot these horror stories date back both to earlier days of the hobby, when it really was dominated by social misfits, and to actual immature people, teens who really just didn't know how to interact with women.
I was introduced to the game at 11 (which was, um, MANY years ago) by a childhood friend. The group we formed eventually grew to about eight, and did okay until one guy invited his girlfriend. After that, a handful of guys basically stopped coming (cos, y'know, girls).
I didn't see it then, but looking back I can certainly see how there were barriers to introducing females to the game. My wife and I were good friends when that first group dissolved, and roleplaying is something she could easily have gotten into had the opportunity presented itself. I am sorry to say it honestly never occurred to me at that time to introduce her to the game.
As Bill Dunn points out, this wasn't a case of deliberate misogyny on my part; it was just not on my radar. I sincerely hope I'm not like that anymore.
But a lot of the time it isn't deliberate misogyny at all. Be sure to read Joana's post above yours in the thread.
Most of the time it's probably just insensitivity colliding with someone who has been sensitized to it, either by personal experience or by study. What one player may tolerate, another may not. Hence, it's better to start out sensitive to the issues. Some women coming up to the table wouldn't mind if you complimented her appearance, some may even court it, particularly if elaborately costumed like at a convention with a lot of cosplayers. But it's better to be sensitive to the fact that something like that may have been a vehicle for workplace sexual harassment for this particular player.
I did read Joana's post and I was floored. What she described anyone who's GM'd more than five minutes would know never to do unless they wanted to lose a player. That the GM apparently thought because the player was a woman that she would just accept such blatant unfair treatment goes beyond mere insensitivity or ignorance and into the realm of serious sexist and/or misogynistic attitudes.
I don't disagree with you Xex, but but I doubt the GM's assumption that a female PC's backstory would be a barmaid rather than have anything to do with her class and level was a conscious thought. Just something along the lines of, "Well, I'm introducing a female PC, so I'll make her a barmaid; I strive for pseudo-midieval realism!"
If the advice you're reading here seems obvious/redundant, you're probably playing at a good table, with a good group.
Edit: Ninja'd by Gwen.
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I don't think guys who are oblivious to sexism in their workplace are bad people. I don't think guys who see sexism in their workplace and assume that, since they're not actively participating in it, it's not their problem are bad people.
Let me see if I can explain this from the perspective of the Tiger Skin and club bearing set. Og grunt.
Whatever arrangement any two (or more) consenting adults want to come to with regards to their personal interactions are not my business. Some workers tell each other dirty jokes, some flirt with each other harmlessly, and some are dating. Gamers in particular are noted for having some ... odd social conventions and a higher tolerance for lewd jokes than most construction crews.
The only relevant standard for bad behavior then is whether the behavior is unwelcome. The problem with that is I'm not a mind reader. I am in fact very, VERY bad at telling what other people are thinking, especially women. So problem 1 is that unless the woman tells me something is a problem I don't know there actually IS a problem. Signals that a woman may think are perfectly clear indicators and should be picked up; body language, tone, etc. are not. If its not as blunt as a baseball bat it doesn't get through my skull.
Problem 2 is if there is a problem I don't know what I can do about it without making it worse. Chances are pretty good all the coworkers involved are my friends. Going to HR just gets one of my friends in trouble.... or possibly both. Bob for being a harasser, Jane for complaining, and possibly myself for making waves.
Problem 3 While a wide examination shows that the discrimination is very real, I don't know whether the discrimination is real or not in any particular incidence. I know I've had my intentions and mood misread more than once.
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But the underlying issue is that "interacting with women" is still assumed to be somehow different from "interacting with people". As long as women are thought of as some kind of alien species, you'll always have this problem. (Feel free to insert any other minority group into that sentence, if you like. The same principle applies.)
Yes, interacting with women is different than interacting with men. If you try to talk to a woman the way you would with a man you'd be labeled as a sexist, boorish lout inside 30 seconds. Of course you can't treat women differently because then you're sexist...
Damned if you do, damned if you don't...
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I'm pretty sure the context of that quote means: Don't mind-control her character as a vehicle to introduce sex into the game. Which should pretty much go without saying.It's not just that. It's, Don't make assumptions about what her character would or must do.
I was once starting a new game, and the GM had one PC sitting in a tavern when the prime antagonist started harassing the barmaid so the PC stepped up to defend her. After the jerk with the roving hands had been sent packing, the GM turned to me and said, "Okay, you can go ahead and join in, Joana. The barmaid is your PC."
"Excuse me? No, it's not. She's not a barmaid."
"Well, it's been a while since her last adventure. She has to do something to pay for her room and board."
"If that were my PC, she would have drawn her own weapon and defended herself instead of letting some loser paw her."
"Well, no, she really needs this job. It's better to put up with sexual harassment than to be on the streets."
"So you're saying my PC's only options are working in a bar or prostitution? She's a freaking fifth-level fighter! You don't think the city guard would be happy to have her?"
I was so mad, he eventually retconned the barmaid to being an NPC and let me introduce my character another way, but he never got why I was so offended by it.
This would serve as the hook for an advice for players (in no way directed at Joana or anyone in particular): If something like this happens, and the GM/other player in question doesn't seem to be a complete jerk, be educational, not confrontational.
Unfortunatly, some isms are deeply ingrained in the minutia of our culture. Even if we think of ourselfs as enlightened, open minded folk, we might just miss that some 'likable' tropes, ideas and cliches we have in mind/know from literature are in fact based on an uglier mindset, especially if we were never victim of a similar ism or heard a first hand account by a friend or family member.
For example, that GM might have a 'heroes journey' trope on his mind (stableboy->hero, barmaid->hero) and never have thought twice about other implications.
By educating him about your feelings and the reasons why you are mad/uneasy about what 'happened', you might not only get him to retcon, but be the first one to give him that 'first hand account' and thus, bringing him to think twice next time - its really a win-win situation.
On the other hand:
If he is a jerk, don't be shy to let him know!
Some of these stories are really mind-boggling. I hope they are not that widespread.
Hopefully, as the gaming population has grown up some, we have applied more common sense to these situations. Women have to deal with sexism and objectification every day in real life - unless they specifically ask for that challenge in the game, why would they want those problems to follow them into fantasy escapism?
You might, but there's no need to extrapolate to everyone.But the underlying issue is that "interacting with women" is still assumed to be somehow different from "interacting with people". As long as women are thought of as some kind of alien species, you'll always have this problem. (Feel free to insert any other minority group into that sentence, if you like. The same principle applies.)Yes, interacting with women is different than interacting with men. If you try to talk to a woman the way you would with a man you'd be labeled as a sexist, boorish lout inside 30 seconds.
I think there's a certain benefit to stating the obvious here. Interacting with women certainly can be different from interacting with men. But then interacting with friends can be different from interacting with acquaintances, co-workers, cronies, and otherwise unknown people on the street. Interacting with someone who's from the working class may be different from interacting with someone from the middle or upper classes. There may be arrays of cross-cutting factors that may make forms of interaction OK or improper given any particular people involved. It's best to be cautious until you get a better read on those factors.
One particularly important point is to recognize, and which I think works with Gwen's point, is to recognize that the factors that apply to you don't map to "interacting with people". All of the factors that come from other groups combine with yours to make up "interacting with people".
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Yes, interacting with women is different than interacting with men. If you try to talk to a woman the way you would with a man you'd be labeled as a sexist, boorish lout inside 30 seconds.
Yikes! How do you talk to men? 0_o
Yikes! How do you talk to men? 0_oYes, interacting with women is different than interacting with men. If you try to talk to a woman the way you would with a man you'd be labeled as a sexist, boorish lout inside 30 seconds.
Pointing grunting and Monte python jokes mostly...
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Yikes! How do you talk to men? 0_oYes, interacting with women is different than interacting with men. If you try to talk to a woman the way you would with a man you'd be labeled as a sexist, boorish lout inside 30 seconds.
Pointing grunting and Monte python jokes mostly...
Nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more.
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I mean what kind of jackass would even do this? It just seems to me that so much of the stuff described in this thread goes beyond simple ignorance of privilege and into the realm of full-blown deliberate misogyny.
I think some people throw creepy stuff into their campaigns to emphasize that they're playing a game for adults and "this ain't your mamma's D&D!!1!".
I think some people throw creepy stuff into their campaigns to emphasize that they're playing a game for adults and "this ain't your mamma's D&D!!1!".
Paizo included - from inbreeding ogres, to anti-halfling racism, to vengeful sex goddesses, Golarion, as published, has plenty of examples of adult materials and themes. And this isn't necessarily a bad thing. Each game table can edit and tweak as necessary to match the table's sensibilities.
EDIT: I'm going to a step farther here and say that I like this about Golarion. I want it Paizo to have the freedom to challenge and provoke with their ideas and content knowing that the GM knows his or her own table and will adjust as desired.
I mean what kind of jackass would even do this? It just seems to me that so much of the stuff described in this thread goes beyond simple ignorance of privilege and into the realm of full-blown deliberate misogyny.I think some people throw creepy stuff into their campaigns to emphasize that they're playing a game for adults and "this ain't your mamma's D&D!!1!".
There's a difference between putting creepy or downright vile elements into your campaign - my current campaign had an instance of some truly abhorrent acts - and what I'm railing against. I do understand what you're getting at though, that some juvenile twirps think "adult themes" means acting like a misogynist jerk toward female players. On the other hand I think a lot of them use it as an excuse to act like jerks.
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For those saying they hope the horror stories are relics of an earlier, less enlightened time, I'm not sure if you're talking about my horror stories or the other women's here, but if it's mine, to be clear: I've been in the game industry for five years. All the stuff I talked about happened in the last five years. Which is part of the reason I did the interview.
Aside, why would complimenting someone on their appearance be considered harassment or offensive?
It's not -- generally -- harassment. It's not even that it's offensive. It's that, as a woman, you are continually judged by your appearance more than anything else. People actually, sometimes, get offended if you don't look good. Sometimes you're treated as nothing more than your appearance. Your appearance gets commented on continually. (People who don't live with this -- who are generally men -- often can't understand why anyone would ever be bothered by a compliment. But when you're not in a job or a situation where your appearance should matter, compliments can be something that separates you, objectifies you, and reminds you that, as a woman, your sole value to many people lies in your appearance.)
And for a lot of female gamers (at least, anecdotally, myself, my friends, and the women I've worked with), gaming is supposed to be recreation, among friends, and we want it to be a break from that. My female friends don't continually comment on my appearance, because who I am as a person is way more important to them than what I look like. And I expect my male friends to be the same way.
So, as I said, if a female player comes to the session dressed up and it's out of the ordinary for her, I think you're safe commenting on it, just as you would if a male player shows up in a suit, or shaves off his beard, etc.
But in general, if you don't usually comment on the appearances of the other players, don't single out the female player(s) for commentary.
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Teenagers aren't that different, but I think the subset that games might be. If girls are more common in the hobby, that in itself makes a difference.
Remember, you're talking about a demographic where a large proportion of them are totally fine with using the word "gay" to mean "lame," and casually throw around the word "rape."
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Yes, interacting with women is different than interacting with men. If you try to talk to a woman the way you would with a man you'd be labeled as a sexist, boorish lout inside 30 seconds. Of course you can't treat women differently because then you're sexist...
Damned if you do, damned if you don't...
Have you considered the possibility that your usual behavior is sexist and boorish and loutish and your male friends just ignore it or find it funny?
As for 'sexism against men' mentioned in another post upthread, it's not possible in our society. Gender discrimination and gender prejudice against men exists, but sexism is that plus the institutional support of society to that prejudice and discrimination. Just as you can't have racism against white people except in countries where non-whites hold all the power, and even then there's the fact that most whites in China or Japan or India will be citizens of powerful white-dominated countries such as the U.S., so they're likely to be treated with some degree of deference by the authorities.
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But they told me I was privileged until until I started to to feel bad about it; if that's not sexism against men, I don't know what is!
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Yikes! How do you talk to men? 0_oYes, interacting with women is different than interacting with men. If you try to talk to a woman the way you would with a man you'd be labeled as a sexist, boorish lout inside 30 seconds.
Pointing grunting and Monte python jokes mostly...
See? I think that's awesome, not sexist or boorish in any way. (In college, our group could recite both Holy Grail and Life of Brian completely off book.)
There are no universal, common characteristics about "women" any more than there are about "men". You didn't have to "learn how to interact with men"--you learned how to interact with different individuals or groups of individuals who happened to be males.
Supposed you were in a group of people and complained about being turned into a newt. If everyone stared at you in confusion, , you probably won't turn around and yell "Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" You've already guessed the group wouldn't get the joke.
It shouldn't matter what the gender or age or racial composition of the group is. Where we run into problems is applying our experience with a single person or group to all people who share some characteristic with that group? If this is a group of men, would you say "men don't like Monty Python"? If not, why would you say "women don't like Monty Python?"
The only valid conclusion from your newt experience is "this particular collection of individuals is not a good audience for Holy Grail references". Make a note and move on.
The best comment I've ever seen on this issue came from a study on upper body strength. It is obvious that there are physical differences between men and women, sure, and we often say "men are stronger than women". However, if you plot bench press values for a random assortment of men and women on the same graph, you'll see that the difference between the strongest man and the weakest man are much, much further apart than the difference between the strongest man and the strongest woman. There is a broader range of variation among individuals of the same gender than there is between any man/woman pair of comparable size, age, state of health, etc.
Maybe I should amend "treat everyone like people" to "treat everyone like individuals". If you make a joke at a table and someone gets offended, record that information as "The person doesn't like this type of joke", and remember that next time you sit down with that person. Instead of learning how to interact with some nebulous, alien "other", try to interact with the 5 or 6 people you're sitting with right now.
Seriously, it's a lot less stressful.