I would cheekily point out that the default setting has been 'guys night' all to often over many many years, although mainly by circumstance rather than design, and I think its nice to think those days should be less and less for years to come.
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For instance, if a version of the Pathfinder Beginner Box were made "for women", with all female characters, a female-specific intro-scenario, etc, would that be good idea? I think it'd be patronizing, myself. There are female iconic characters in the "box for everyone", it's not like they needed to make a new male iconic cleric and rogue in order to get men to play it. Do you think a "pink box" intro-set with new female wizard and fighter iconics would do any good at drawing female players?Don't insult or stereotype by making it cute and pink, on the grounds that girls only like what's pink. BUT, a product with clearly displayed strong female characters that encouraged people to play those female characters would likely appeal to both genders and it could certainly make women feel more comfortable.
And, if you want to go the extra mile, cut the cheesecake where cheesecake does not belong. It is one of the very, very clear signals that this material was made for the heterosexual male gaze and that it is a party to which we are not invited.
That's honestly the problem with gratuitous bewbage. It's not that it 'offends' grown women who may well be completely sex positive and non prudish. It is the signal being sent about whose gaze is being catered to and who is the object being gazed at. THAT is the problem with cheesecake.
The Beginner Box already has 2 iconic female characters. And they could be played by either male or female players. And it's very easy to choose a new name and picture if you want a female pre-gen fighter or wizard.
There tend to be plenty of pictures of barechested, unrealistically-muscled handsome males in fantasy art, movies, and fiction. From Conan to Hercules, woman who care to look for it have plenty of eye-candy of their own. Should guys worry that a female gamer, looking at all these pictures of muscle-bound hunks in loin-cloths, or knights in shining armor on a horse, and then lifting her gaze to pan around the table at some (perhaps) out-of-shape (skinny or fat) guys in glasses and acne and it creating unrealistic expectations in men?
For instance, if a version of the Pathfinder Beginner Box were made "for women", with all female characters, a female-specific intro-scenario, etc, would that be good idea? I think it'd be patronizing, myself. There are female iconic characters in the "box for everyone", it's not like they needed to make a new male iconic cleric and rogue in order to get men to play it. Do you think a "pink box" intro-set with new female wizard and fighter iconics would do any good at drawing female players?
Nobody is suggesting any changes to product, nothing more than a sample of game play in a place where people can relate, to get women interested in playing.
They are not talking about women only PFS or a female specific scenario...
When you go to Donut King and they have samples on the counter - a free taste to get you to come back for more.
Or when your Rugby team has a small forward pack and your coach and team manager start scouting for some big guys to bring your forwards up to strength...(because everybody knows forwards do the hard work and backs are a bunch of show ponies).
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Where I have the problem is when public or official games become segregationist. That is sending the wrong message IMO. And if someone were to do it, I would at the very least expect reciprocal "men's only nights" to keep it fair, the way they do at some swimming pools for instance.So you mean that if a gaming store had the temerity to do a women's gaming night to help encourage women to get into the hobby, given that every other night of the year the attendance was over 90% male, it should do an all male night and exclude, what, two or three whole women? Whose presence clearly doesn't change the social dynamic?
Hell, a lot of gaming stores ARE effectively all male night a majority of the time. That is the specific issue we are talking about changing in this thread, not making more of.
Trust me, the presence of even 1 woman can alter the social dynamic A LOT.
And I still haven't seen a compelling reason why women can't be encouraged to join in that requires having to exclude all males from the game.
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What is your idea for expanding the hobby?
All I see from you is negative....No positve contribution.
I cannot see a problem with women only games night or beginner box bashes...
I have been the only male in teams in the work place and it’s hard to break into the social circle especially when you are new and lack experience... If there was another male it was easier for me.
I gave some ideas for new GMs earlier. As I recall, you even said it was great.
My ideas for expanding the hobby are to draw in new players and teach them how to play and GM well. That means all players, not "only more women" or "only more of X, we have enough of Y". The Beginners Box was a good example, it wasn't "made for boys" or "made for girls", it was made for "new players".
Yes, it is helpful to have someone else there to directly help you, preferably someone you know. I talked about that earlier too. If not someone you know, at least someone to give you direct assistance, answer questions, etc. That doesn't require excluding entire swaths of people from the game.
I haven't played with someone new for over twenty years, so the issue of our gaming night being a comfortable space for women is not directly relevant to my actual RPG experience. However, one thing I did notice from reading this thread was my presumption that other posters are male (proven incorrect, in at least one instance). It occurred to me that I generally refer to "...the DM and his game..." or similar when posting on paizo's forums. Perhaps that language could contribute to a less female friendly board - in future I'll try to use the singular "their" which doesn't seem as clunky and self-aware to me as it used to.
One thing I saw in an ICE book once (Nightmares of Mine, I think) was a convention of using she/her for the gamemaster and he/him for the players. The author made the point that it might actually increase readability and clarity, rather than reducing it as so often happens with his-slash-her constructions.
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Good on Paizo for the inclusivity.
I do not think you are actually reading or understanding anything I am saying here. The issue with heavily sexualizing one gender over the other is that it sends the social message that this material was created mainly for the people who find that gender attractive.
If a particular gaming supplement has lots of gratuitous cheesecake, it sends the message that it was written for and by heterosexual males, and that heterosexual women are not its intended audience. That is the primary issue, IMO. The social message that 'this game is not for you'. That is all. Please do not confuse it with the other issues. There are some of those also, but they are separate issues from the basic message of 'this material is made by and for heterosexual males'.
If beefcake is included that can theoretically even things out to some extent, but keep in mind that the things usually sexualized about the males are powerful and dynamic and imply aggressiveness, strength and decision making agency, whereas the things usually sexualized about the women are not. Fairly often what is sexualized about women is the exact opposite - they are objects to be gazed on and acted on, rewards for the hero, overtly submissive, or prioritizing their sexual attractiveness over their effectiveness in combat, sometimes to a very silly extent.
How often do you see pretty elfboys in skimpy leather bondage clothes with a come-hither look, or kneeling at the feet of a strong female fighter while showing off their bodies with a smile? Pretty much you don't. What you do see is men who show their bodies doing it in a way that can reasonably be described as powerful, more of a hero than an object to be gazed on and acted on. And no, that is not equivalent.
Paizo has been the least worst offender in depicting women as fully clothed effective fighters and real characters rather than strictly as props and passive objects. There are others that fail at this miserably and contribute a lot more to the problem.
I see those elfboys submissively kneeling at the feet of their mistress practically every Drow supplement. :)
This all goes back to the difference between "made for an audience demographic" vs "displays hatred of/towards those outside the target demographic" that I brought up in one of my earliest posts to this thread. Yes, many RPGs are made by and for males, they are the ones that buy them and play them in the largest numbers. Paizo is easily one of the best in terms of the art and storylines not veering off into over-sexualized themes. (You phrase it as "least worst offender", that's really damning with faint praise IMHO. I think they do a very good job of dealing with mature themes like devil-influenced empires without going too far overboard).
The female iconics are often shown saving/shielding/rescuing the male iconics. The cover of the APG for instance, or the latest issue of the Pathfinder comic where Merisiel saves the group after they were all captured by goblins. I seldom see them just posing seductively with a doe-eyed come-hither look and their bodice torn apart.
Also, to make a note about your comment on "[males in the pictures] imply aggressiveness, strength and decision making agency", those are exactly the qualities that are most attractive to many women, not the Yaoi look. Most women are attracted to such qualities, increasing the sexualization of such pictures under their gaze.
What is your idea for expanding the hobby?
All I see from you is negative....No positve contribution.
I cannot see a problem with women only games night or beginner box bashes...
I have been the only male in teams in the work place and it’s hard to break into the social circle especially when you are new and lack experience... If there was another male it was easier for me.
I gave some ideas for new GMs earlier. As I recall, you even said it was great.
My ideas for expanding the hobby are to draw in new players and teach them how to play and GM well. That means all players, not "only more women" or "only more of X, we have enough of Y". The Beginners Box was a good example, it wasn't "made for boys" or "made for girls", it was made for "new players".
Yes, it is helpful to have someone else there to directly help you, preferably someone you know. I talked about that earlier too. If not someone you know, at least someone to give you direct assistance, answer questions, etc. That doesn't require excluding entire swaths of people from the game.
The only praise I gave was you were heading in the right direction - away from the well over done subject that was not intended to be the main subject of the thread.
I did say telling women how they should GM is not the subject either.
The question I am asking is how do you make Pathfinder more attractive and PFS less intimidating to women?
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I see those elfboys submissively kneeling at the feet of their mistress practically every Drow supplement. :)Which works very nicely for me. :) But it is not the norm by any means, and it is insanely, exponentially outnumbered in the industry by the depictions of women in outright submissive, relatively powerless or primarily ornamental positions.
This all goes back to the difference between "made for an audience demographic" vs "displays hatred of/towards those outside the target demographic" that I brought up in one of my earliest posts to this thread.Um, you are the sole person who has ever suggested that hatred for women was even a factor here. It's not.
Yes, many RPGs are made by and for males, they are the ones that buy them and play them in the largest numbers.It's something of a self-perpetuating circle. "Gee, women aren't buying very many of our books that have bikini chicks with huge gazongas on the cover. That must mean we shouldn't bother marketing to women since they aren't our demographic."
Paizo is easily one of the best in terms of the art and storylines not veering off into over-sexualized themes. (You phrase it as "least worst offender", that's really damning with faint praise IMHO. I think they do a very good job of dealing with mature themes like devil-influenced empires without going too far overboard).I generally agree.
Also, to make a note about your comment on "[males in the pictures] imply aggressiveness, strength and decision making agency", those are exactly the qualities that are most attractive to many women, not the Yaoi look. Most women are attracted to such qualities, increasing the sexualization of such pictures under their gaze.Do you know how large the female percentage of the market for yaoi is? It is extremely high. Pretty boys have a hell of a lot of marketing potential, and I don't think there's any good reason to limit male...
So do you think RPGs should have more yaoi art to attract female buyers? While it may work for a certain segment of the female gaming crowd, I think that'd turn off (and result in lost sales from) more than a few male gamers.
If you're not suggesting that, but rather completely non-sexual, fully covered in non-revealing clothing on all females (and males?), you might not actively turn off buyers, but the lack of turning some on might still result.
So what would be your ideal? What could you hold up and say "this is it"? And when you have that ideal in mind, do you think it's marketable and a good incentive to buy the book to both men and women?
PS: Have you ever bought a Drow book just or mainly because of the matriarchal power structure of Drow and the subservient males, in either the art or writing? Is that a draw for female gamers? None of the women I've ever played with have expressed an opinion on that, and I was wondering.
This thread itself is a microcosm of all the things that this thread was supposed to address.
I'll check in again when you guys and Samurai hit 1000 posts and see if any progress has been made.
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People are stopping me--people like you who keep constantly derailing the conversation questioning that something needs to be done differently for women.
You want to "reach out" to people? That's great! But that's not any different to what we're doing now. Bringing in more people is good. Bringing in more people is what the industry looks to do CONSTANTLY because that's the only way to keep books selling and so forth. But that doesn't answer the question as to why we can't easily bring in more women.
Reaching out to potential women gamers is not the same as reaching out to potential men gamers. Because <insert the trillion reasons we've rehashed in this thread over and over>
SO ANYWAY
The more I think about it, the more I think that the mentorship idea is the best thing I've heard of. Good on ya, 8th! :) I just have no idea what I personally can do to help that idea gain traction, considering I live on the other side of the world to Paizo and all.
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People are stopping me--people like you who keep constantly derailing the conversation questioning that something needs to be done differently for women.
You want to "reach out" to people? That's great! But that's not any different to what we're doing now. Bringing in more people is good. Bringing in more people is what the industry looks to do CONSTANTLY because that's the only way to keep books selling and so forth. But that doesn't answer the question as to why we can't easily bring in more women.
Reaching out to potential women gamers is not the same as reaching out to potential men gamers. Because <insert the trillion reasons we've rehashed in this thread over and over>
SO ANYWAY
The more I think about it, the more I think that the mentorship idea is the best thing I've heard of. Good on ya, 8th! :) I just have no idea what I personally can do to help that idea gain traction, considering I live on the other side of the world to Paizo and all.
Mentoring can start at home... find a friend you'd like to introduce to gaming, take them under your wing and teach them, and have fun. Do you know anyone personally that doesn't currently game that you think might be open to it and enjoy it?
I'm in Sydney as well AM. I have a home group that's me and the lads. I do go to a PFS once in a blue moon.
I remember my first PFS session, I had met Al Rigg at the pub once and he was the only person I knew in the hall.
I just wanted to get his table, because I was very uncertain about playing with people I didn't know.
That and Al is probably the best GM I have ever seen.
i don't know if it has been point out but this dose go both ways tho one is much more common then the other
there a girl that runs once a blue moon but when she dose no one will run a male because of what she has done to them in the past. she all ways leave the female pc alone. (it had to do with a swarm of undead bangers that all I'm saying)
that being said i did have one game where one player(male) was doing things to the female player's pc why she was past out.
short story she put to and two to getter got a free wish.
he was awake when the hill giant got a hold of him.
moral of the story he walk away mad that night but has never done it again and even stops others from doing thing like that
you can view it wrong or right but she was happy and he learns the hard way
both are still friends
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Samurai, unfortunately, no! The only female friend of mine who is interested in (tabletop) gaming is about as much of a feminist as myself and is more than capable of dealing with things herself. :P Although this may change as I am going back to university in a fortnight and may meet some people who are interested. Who knows.
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On the topic of the cheesecake art... speaking from the perspective of a woman who, erm, rather enjoys attractive lady-folk, I still have issues with a lot of fantasy art. To me, the most attractive artworks have nothing to do with sexualised poses and skimpy attire. In fact, it's probably even better if they look badass rather than like eyecandy.
For example:
The woman from the cover of Serpent's Skull 1 (although her pose is a little dumb - what is she doing exactly..?)
AMEIKO AMEIKO AMEIKO AMEIKO <3
Sandara Quinn (the woman on the cover here) - she's also really cool and likeable in the adventure!
This lady is just oozing with style and badass
More Ameiko because YESSS AMEIKO
Even cheesecake is okay sometimes -- I am all kinds of in love with Nocticula for example (DAT. HAIR.) -- but Nocticula is also the demon lord of seduction, and is an amazingly powerful woman despite the sexy artwork.
Plenty more examples in Paizo art. Even if you don't share my taste in women, I'm sure you can agree that these are nice-looking character artworks that are not exploitative. More like this pls :D
more ameiko pls :D
I'm in Sydney as well AM. I have a home group that's me and the lads. I do go to a PFS once in a blue moon.
I remember my first PFS session, I had met Al Rigg at the pub once and he was the only person I knew in the hall.
When you go to PFS sessions in Sydney, do you see any women show up?
The PFS sessions I attend now and then in Brisbane only ever seem to have males at the FLGS. I only occasionally see women in the other room of the gaming store playing MTG. The random guys that show up always seem to be well behaved with no jerkish behaviour so I'm not sure what keeps the ladies away. It's a shame really, as the few times over the years I have ever gotten to roleplay with women, the standard of roleplaying they bring to the table is very high making it a more enjoyable experience for all.
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I'd love to go to the PFS games in Sydney, but I'm in Newcastle and the 2.5+ hour drive is a bit of a drag. The VC in Sydney said in another thread that they tried to start games up here in Newwie but they didn't go well. (Probably when I was overseas last year... else I would've dragged my friends along for sure.)
When I played PFS games at GenConOz back in '09 I was usually the only woman at the table. Or even the only woman at all the tables in that session. Here's hoping that PAX Aus's PFS games aren't the same way!