Kobold, Challenge rating and Advanced teamplate

[elglanto simpatico]

Hello,

I'm new to PF and one of my player would like to play a Kobold. I'm ok with that but a little confused about its CR.

here:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/kobold
it says:
"Kobolds are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. A kobold with NPC class levels takes a –3 penalty to its CR (rather than the normal –2 penalty)."
With an exemple:
"Kobold Rogue 2 (CR 1/2)"
If i understand correctly:
Rogue 2 => CR2
Kobold with class => -2 to CR
2-2=> CR=1/2
So, i can say: Kobold Rogue 1 (CR 1/3) or Kobold Warrior 2 (CR 1/3) or Kobold Rogue 4 (CR 2). Am i right?

Then, the Advanced teamplate:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/advanced-creatu re-cr-1
It gives CR+1
Thus, i would have:
Advanced Kobold Rogue 4 (CR 3)

Finally, as i would like to have people with the same CR in my group, let's say one player is a Human Rogue 3 (CR 3), then, the Kobold has to be either:
Kobold Rogue 5 (CR 3)
or
Advanced Kobold Rogue 4 (CR 3)

And they are both clearly more powerfull than the Human Rogue 3 but have the same CR.

So my question is: where am i wrong here?

[Carbon D. Metric]

As long as your player understands the kind of personality their Kobold will have, and how they will disfunctionally work with friendlier NPC's there really isn't anything too powerful on any given Kobold (Even the special Colored ones) that will outshine any given Dwarf, Human, or even say Aasimar.

Scales typically cause trouble with the normal racist folk.

[Vod Canockers]

A Humans, or other races CR, is 1 lower than its level. Human Rogue 3 is CR 2, not CR 3.

Quote:

A kobold with NPC class levels takes a –3 penalty to its CR (rather than the normal –2 penalty)

A kobold with PC class levels would have the same CR as a Human with the same PC class levels.

[Diego Rossi]

The Advance Race guide is the best reference when making a Kobold PC.
Kobolds

A core race (from the CRB) has 8-11 build points, a kobold has 5 bp, so he is fairly weak.
I suggest to change his stat modifiers from:
Greater weakness (–4 Str, +2 Dex, –2 Con)–3 rp
to
(–2 Str, +2 Dex, –2 Con)

[Melshyahr]

Hi there,

I am the player Eglanto talked about.

In fact, there is two subjects here. One is about the CR of a kobold as it is written is the rules, the second one is a way to balance the kobold in a group of PC. Only the first one should be addressed in this section.

So, according to the rules,

reference document wrote:

Adding NPCs: Creatures whose Hit Dice are solely a factor of their class levels and not a feature of their race, such as all of the PC races detailed in Races, are factored into combats a little differently than normal monsters or monsters with class levels. A creature that possesses class levels, but does not have any racial Hit Dice, is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –1. A creature that only possesses non-player class levels (such as a warrior or adept) is factored in as a creature with a CR equal to its class levels –2. If this reduction would reduce a creature's CR to below 1, its CR drops one step on the following progression for each step below 1 this reduction would make: 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/6, 1/8.

So, a human fighter 3 is CR 2 for example, and a human warrior 3 is CR 1.

Then, we have a look to the kobold and find this text :

reference document wrote:

Kobolds are defined by their class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. A kobold with NPC class levels takes a –3 penalty to its CR (rather than the normal –2 penalty).

So it seems that a kobold fighter 3 is CR 2 and a kobold warrior 3 is CR 1/2.

But if we have a look on some examples, we found this : a kobold rogue 2 with a CR of 1/2, as if the kobold's CR is defined as its class levels minus 2.

So, the rule question is : what is the CR of a kobold with pc class levels, with npc class levels, with mixed pc and npc class levels, and is the kobold rogue 2 example wrong ?

[Melshyahr]

Quote:

what is the CR of a kobold with pc class levels, with npc class levels, with mixed pc and npc class levels, and is the kobold rogue 2 example wrong ?

Bump. Thanks

[bodhranist]

CR only has any bearing when talking about a monster as an NPC. PCs don't have challenge ratings, so I don't see why you're asking.

[elglanto simpatico]

bodhranist wrote:

CR only has any bearing when talking about a monster as an NPC. PCs don't have challenge ratings, so I don't see why you're asking.

Because i would like to know how to handle PCs with differents templates.

[Diego Rossi]

The problem is that CR and efficiency of a character aren't so strictly related.
What will be a minor ability for a NPC that will use once in one encounter become a major ability for a PC that can and will use it plenty of times in his career.
To make an example a +2 to perception check is a nice ability for a NPC but nothing stellar, the same +2 will be used in all encounters by the PC and even in a lot of non combat situations, so its value is higher for a PC.
What is good or awesome change between a PC and a NPC.

The CR reflect how powerful is a creature as a NPC, generally in a combat encounter, not how good or bad is that creature as a PC.