Lore Warden certainly is nice. You might want to look into a dip into Maneuver Master, too.
Just be careful with sunder, disarm, and trip. Sundering what will eventually become your own equipment is a tricky tactic, and all three of those maneuvers have big limitations (sunder and disarm only work on opponents with equipment, and trip only on opponents of a certain size). In general I think it's a good idea to avoid overspecializing in maneuvers, but they're great tricks to have up your sleeve.
Ah, good call, I forgot about that.
I've dabbled in a few maneuvers. I haven't had much luck with disarm, but my complaint was that it was highly situational and really the problem was that it was the only maneuver I was any good at. This was before the Lore Warden, which really opens doors for investing in multiple maneuvers.
Dirty Trick is just a lot of fun, but it requires creativity and/or a lenient GM. It gets old if you can't come up with new ways to inflict the same debuffs, but I found it really satisfying to come up with a great description/justification for something. And some things, like sickening a victim with a good ol' kick in the nuts, never get old. It's best in conjunction with Maneuver Master, as it's normally a standard action.
Ultimately I think I like grapple best, but due to the number of feats involved it kind of begs for specialization. I did play a successful lore warden trip/grappler, but it actually got kind of boring as she could trip, mount, and hog tie pretty much anything with a skeletal system in one round.
The bull-rush/resposition stuff is also really handy, especially if you have teammates who can take advantage of the AoOs. I also had an awesome time with an overrun barbarian: overrun the mooks and charge the bejebus out of the BBEG or spellcaster or whoever is cowering back there. Taking feats that ultimately separate you from your party feels counter-intuitive, but it does make life exciting.
There seems to be some nice support for sunder in the form of various bonuses (certain weapons, traits, etc, offer bonuses, if I recall) but I haven't tried it out. I really should get around to it.
I just finished building my first fighter a few days ago (before that I'd only played full casters) and I can offer some advice from HOURS of research and number crunching.
Lore Warden is almost necessary for this concept. Combat Maneuvers become so difficult to pull of at higher levels, but LW helps you succeed a decent amount of the time. Not all the maneuvers are created equal, though. If your game doesn't extend into higher levels then you've got a lot more flexibility.
Rule 1: Don't take the critical hit feats. If you want to disarm an enemy, just disarm them. Don't hope for a critical to land something you're focused on.
Rule 2: Some maneuvers are just weaker versions of others. Sunder's greatest boons are removing enemy weapons and weakening armor, but both of those are pretty solidly covered by Disarm and to a lesser degree Trip. Overrun is a less effective Trip in many ways. Bull Rush and Drag can be emulated very successfully by Reposition. Of course this won't be true in all parties, but it should be considered.
Rule 3: Allies are required. The greatest benefit of many of the maneuvers is that if you specialize far enough you start causing enemies to provoke attacks of opportunity. These attacks can double or even triple the amount of damage your group can lay out in a single round. Reposition is perhaps the greatest version of this, since you can potentially move the enemy into each of your nearby allies' threat range.
Rule 4: Dirty Trick is a trap. Sort of. You should probably ignore the "duration" aspect of dirty trick, because every intelligent creature is going to spend their next move/standard action to undo what you just did. Hell, most non-intelligent creatures will do it simply out of instinct. Still, it offers some great 1-turn debuffs that a creative player could turn the tide of battle. It does, however, rely very heavily on your DM's approval.
Rule 5: Have a back-up plan. Sometimes a maneuver isn't possible, and other times it's simply not worth it. The biggest issue with finesse style builds is that when they can't use their maneuvers they're stuck doing very mediocre damage. Take a few damage feats and specialize in a second weapon (archery is great, but so is the power attack line). Combat Maneuver builds are all about shaping the battlefield and adapting to change, so don't fall flat when they resist your tactics.
When I made my build I focused on Trip, Disarm, and Reposition. I tried to fit a fourth in (Dirty Trick) but the feats just really got tight, even as a fighter. Of course I was also shoring up my weak will save, low HP, and trying to remain decent at damage.
This is all, of course, only my opinion. I'm interested in hearing what other people think of the maneuvers.
If you're already invested in trip, I find Ki Throw preferable to reposition. It doesn't trigger the AoOs like greater reposition, but the target has to stand up sometime. It works beautifully with Lunge for awesome crowd control. Improved Ki Throw is great on a lore warden.
Damage is tricky, but you're going to have a huge Str for your CMB anyway, and you're probably taking Power Attack just to qualify for feats, so you're not in bad shape. I'm more worried about defenses, as you have medium armor, and probably at least 13 Int if you want to improved/greater trip/disarm/etc when you'd probably rather up your Con or Dex.
A 2-level dip into Maneuver Master gets you two feats, unarmed strike, stunning fist, evasion, some class skills, nice base saves, and a version of flurry that not only speeds up maneuvers but doesn't penalize your regular attacks (the -2 only applies to your maneuvers), works with any full attack (even ranged weapons) and arguably may work in armor (since it isn't flurry of blows, it replaces it). This effectively costs you +1 CMB/CMD, though, as it delays your progress through Lore Warden, and you really need every single point of CMB you can get.
If you're already invested in trip, I find Ki Throw preferable to reposition. It doesn't trigger the AoOs like greater reposition, but the target has to stand up sometime. It works beautifully with Lunge for awesome crowd control. Improved Ki Throw is great on a lore warden.
Ki Throw is great for a monk, but for a non-monk I find it tepid at best. You're limited to creatures your own size or smaller, which is going to rule out a lot more than the regular trip/reposition maneuvers without magical intervention. Improved Ki Throw makes it a little nicer (two trips per attack), but the limitation is still there.
Damage is tricky, but you're going to have a huge Str for your CMB anyway, and you're probably taking Power Attack just to qualify for feats, so you're not in bad shape. I'm more worried about defenses, as you have medium armor, and probably at least 13 Int if you want to improved/greater trip/disarm/etc when you'd probably rather up your Con or Dex.
Lore Wardens are in light armor, not medium. However there's nothing stopping them from regaining that proficiency, and in all honesty they probably should. They don't have a lot of wiggle room in their stats, so a quick dip into Cavalier, Paladin, or Armored Hulk (Barbarian) would clear that up.
You're right, though. Any build based on strength is always going to have decent damage to fall back on if you're willing to use a two-handed weapon and pick up the Power Attack feat.
A 2-level dip into Maneuver Master gets you two feats, unarmed strike, stunning fist, evasion, some class skills, nice base saves, and a version of flurry that not only speeds up maneuvers but doesn't penalize your regular attacks (the -2 only applies to your maneuvers), works with any full attack (even ranged weapons) and arguably may work in armor (since it isn't flurry of blows, it replaces it). This effectively costs you +1 CMB/CMD, though, as it delays your progress through Lore Warden, and you really need every single point of CMB you can get.
I see a lot of love for Maneuver Master and I can see why, but I'm personally not sold. A Lore Warden can be throwing down maneuvers as early as level 2, which is fine by me. At level 1 anything dies from a single hit with a two-handed weapon anyway.
Flurry of Maneuvers also inflicts a few interesting penalties as it's worded. The standard suggested build is Maneuver Master 2 / Lore Warden 18 (or whatever your stopping point is). This means that you're running at -1 AB due to a loss of your base attack bonus. Now, when you choose to do a flurry of maneuvers you get a single bonus attack at full BAB but with a -2 penalty (effectively a -1 penalty) and all other maneuvers performed this round are at a -2 penalty since the full BAB bonus only applies to the bonus maneuver. This is a problem for characters using iterative attacks to perform additional maneuvers, like tripping multiple targets or adding in a disarm or sunder.
Still, multiple attacks means the character isn't swapping out one of her damage-based attacks to inflict a maneuver on an enemy. In the end it seems that it comes down to a choice in style.
Flurry of Maneuvers: Allows the character to perform a single maneuver each round with reasonable accuracy while also maintaining significant damage inflicted.
"Pure" Lore Warden: Allows the character to achieve the highest possible combat maneuver bonuses quickly and efficiently while sacrificing damaging attacks (ignoring retaliations through inflicted Attacks of Opportunity).
Just my thoughts.
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Here's a nice chain I have om my Lore Warden, works good when you can trip your opponent.
Power attack, greater trip, felling smash, (furious focus)
Felling Smash (Combat)
You commit all your focus to a devastating blow, trying to crush your opponent to the ground.
Prerequisite: Int 13, Str 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Power Attack, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: If you use the attack action to make a single melee attack at your highest base attack bonus while using Power Attack and you hit an opponent, you can spend a swift action to attempt a trip combat maneuver against that opponent.
After you trip him you get an AoO which is at your highest attack bonus minus power attack plus prone.
I think if you can trip your opponent this is better the just a full attack action.
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A Lore Warden doesn’t need to take Medium Armor Proficiency. A mithral breastplate reduces the armor check penalty to 1. Take one of the traits Armor Expert or Sargavan Guard. Either will reduce the ACP by 1. Thus the Lore Warden will take a penalty but it will only be zero! (Thanks to Mergy for this suggestion.)
If you are playing PFS and take Sargavan Guard, I recommend taking the Defender of the Society trait which gives you +1 AC in medium or heavy armor. It is found in the Faction Guide and the Shattered Star Player’s Guide, which is a free download.
thanks,
Kodger
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A Lore Warden doesn’t need to take Medium Armor Proficiency. A mithral breastplate reduces the armor check penalty to 1. Take one of the traits Armor Expert or Sargavan Guard. Either will reduce the ACP by 1. Thus the Lore Warden will take a penalty but it will only be zero! (Thanks to Mergy for this suggestion.)
If you are playing PFS and take Sargavan Guard, I recommend taking the Defender of the Society trait which gives you +1 AC in medium or heavy armor. It is found in the Faction Guide and the Shattered Star Player’s Guide, which is a free download.
thanks,
Kodger
Mithral breastplate still requires medium armor proficiency. It act in all ways as light armor but is still considered medium armor.
Elven Chain
Aura no aura (non-magical); CL —; Weight 20 lbs.; Price 5,150 gp
DESCRIPTION
This extremely light chainmail is made of very fine mithral links. This armor is treated, in all ways, like light armor, including when determining proficiency. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 20%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +4, and an armor check penalty of –2.
This armor is medium armor that is considered light in ALL ways.
Looking at Maneuver Master, if the main thing is to get a bonus combat maneuver out of a full attack, I'm seeing a big problem. He uses his Monk level instead of BAB for the additional maneuver used in the flurry, and at -2. This certainly won't scale well in levels. Seems I'd be much better off with straight Lore Warden. Am I misinterpreting something?
They errata'd (or clarified, I guess) that a while back. In these instances it's not "monk level for BAB" but rather "monk level for the BAB contributed by monk." Basically, you treat your monk levels as full BAB when determining your ability to hit.
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I had an incredible amount of fun with a Maneuver Master Monk (4), Lore Warden (X).
Maneuver Master Monk gives:
lvl 1: Flurry of Maneuvers, bonus maneuver feat, Stunning fist, +2 to all saves
lvl 2: evasion, bonus maneuver feat, +1 to all saves
lvl 3: maneuver defense, maneuver training, +0 to all saves
lvl 4: Ki pool, ki goodies, +1 to all saves
I went with a STR build and suffered with AC even though I had mithral brawling kiko armor. Others have mentioned how terrible dex builds are with damage potential, and they are more feat intensive. I love dex builds, but in society you never know who you are playing with so being able to do some amount of damage is very useful. The maneuvers you want to perform aren't always practical, so it's nice to just have straight DPS as a fallback.
You might consider the Dueling enchantment, dusty rose prism ioun stone slotted in a wayfinder, Bred for War Trait (shoanti), and brawling armor to help certain combat maneuver bonuses.
With a ki Pool, Ki throw is pretty amazing. I found that walking around with a potion of enlarge person helped to keep the ki cost down for most modules. If something is gargantuan, it's not something you can trip (for the most part, check the bestiary). Many things are going to be large sized or smaller, with a fair amount of huge sprinkled in. After drinking the potion of enlarge and getting into position, you can toss pretty much anything toss-able with 1 ki point or less.
Even though a combat maneuver focused build is lots of fun and you can try to act as a battlefield controller, don't expect to be better than a caster.
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Okay, coming at this from the angle of both a GM and someone who has multiple PFS combat maneuver builds, I am gonna dish some thoughts.
Note: While I optimize, I am not an uber optimizer. Although I sometimes scare myself when I start to add up things like my Lore Warden Fighter's Trip or Disarm bonus...
I have GMed for a Lore Warden Sunder build and, overall, it wasn't much fun for me as GM, and the player of that build (it was an 11th level build for use in a module under the old module rules) is taking his PC who the build was based on in a different direction.
IMO, Trip and Disarm, while they can be irritating, include a lot more capability for enjoyment on both sides of the screen, including use of the Law of Unintended Consequences.
Well, my PC moved up 30', to get between the rest of our party and the Pharasmans, and readied a Trip attack. The Pharasman cleric, the leader of the other party, came charging toward my PC. Readied Trip (PoleArm Master gets a bonus to attack rolls with readied actions and AoOs) goes off, successful. Greater Trip lets my Trip attack make the tripee provoke AoOs. My PC then makes a Disarm on the cleric. Again, successful. Since it is Greater Disarm, the weapon flies 15' in a random direction.
The Dice Gods were paying close attention to the game, so the random direction was directly toward my PC, so the cleric's mace landed in the square behind my PC.
Our party's Rogue/Bard goes next, moves up, grabs the mace in passing, and offers the mace to the cleric while diplomacizing the heck out of him. "We are not what you think we are." Yadda, yadda, yadda.
Encounter ends, cleric gives us the information he has on one of the objects of our mission, and we direct them to where there are some humans they can rescue and escort out of Geb.
Yeah, some of the RAW rules got broken, but the overall feel was both epic and amusing to all concerned, GM and players.
I am not a fan of Sunder, even with Greater Sunder. There are many things where, even with an adamantine weapon, you won't be able to bypass hardness (anything with hardness of 20 or higher).
The benefits of both Trip and Disarm is, that while they are both largely limited to humanoid opponents, (which is usually not that big a deal in PFS, humans and humanoid undead rank high in the list of likely opponents in almost every scenario) they also can cause the enemy affected to either give your team bonus attacks, or fight at a disadvantage or with less than their best weapon.
Standing up from prone provokes.
Picking up an item, even a weapon, from the ground provokes.
Drawing a weapon doesn't provoke, but if it was his best weapon, why wasn't he using it already? And the incidence of backup weapons among weapon-wielding enemies is fairly low.
My current PFS PCs with combat maneuvers, or who use them, are:
A 9th level Polearm Master Fighter wielding a Fauchard.
This is a strongly Dex-based build, his Str is only 12. For normal attacks with his fauchard, he does crap damage. however, his Init mode is high, and get currently gets 8 AoOs a round.
To mitigate the low Str issues, he has a +1 Agile rapier as his backup weapon. While he won't do as much damage as that Str-based Barbarian wielding a greatsword, he can hit fairly well for a good amount of damage with the rapier.
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Gang Up, Improved Trip, Greater Trip, Improved Disarm, Greater Disarm, Weapon Finesse, Agile Maneuvers, butterfly's Sting, EWP: Fauchard, and Improved Critical: Fauchard.
The Fauchard has a normal crit range of 18-20, so he now has a crit range of 15-20, and the ability to pass off crits to an ally with better damage potential. his base CMD at 9th level is +16, +20 for disarm and trip before adding weapon feats and magic. With Gang Up and his Flexible Flanker ability, he usually can get the +2 for flanking; and he gets a +2 bonus for readied attacks and AoOs.
Not an outrageous bonus for the combat maneuvers, but, usually, a 10 or so on the die is all he needs to have a good chance of affecting opponents in general.
My other PC who uses combat maneuvers is a 6th level Lore Warden build, and he does NOT have any of the combat maneuver feats past the free Combat Expertise. He is a Str-based build, and was built more to play with the Whip Mastery feat chain than combat maneuvers. The whip just gives him the ability to do combat maneuvers from far enough away that very few opponents will be able to take that free AoO he provokes.
High Str, so he does tolerable damage with the whip when he wants to or needs to, he can easily swap between lethal and non-lethal weapon with the whip, if we need information from our opponents or we are in an urban area where we don't want to leave bodies behind. That helped make the guards for an area we were adventuring in much happier with our party, since we pretty much just turned any intelligent opponents in for justice, rather than killing them.
Feats: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, EWP: Whip, Whip Mastery, Improved Whip Mastery, Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Whip, Weapon Specialization: Whip, Martial Versatility: Weapon Focus: Whip
He now has a +1 heavy flail as his backup weapon, and the Martial Versatility feat lets him add that Weapon Focus to it, as well. Basically, the whip gives him some battlefield control and a small amount of damage, or he switches to the flail for standard 2H weapon damage.
His CMD is +12, not counting the +2 for Disarm from the weapons, which isn't very far behind the higher level combat maneuver specialist above.
Either one of them can cause havoc with opponents, since they both have a fairly good chance of tripping and disarming, and, with a good roll, disarming items from both hands, instead of just one.
Both of them have damage options if they need them. Both of them have some useful non-combat skills. Neither of them has an AC to write home about, although the Dex-based one's AC is better, other than having hit the Dex cap from his armor (gave up Armor Training for the bonus to readied attacks and AoOs, IIRC).
Neither is the "go to" guy for most skills, but they can, usually, help out in one way or another during social encounters. Oddly enough, or maybe not so oddly seeing the Int requirement for Combat Expertise, Improved Trip & Improved Disarm, both of them are humans with 14 Ints, so they have a useful amount of skill points to play with.
Overall, trip and disarm are useful about as often as sunder, and still lets the party have access to the enemies' gear afterwards. Sometimes, you find that you need to use that sword the mid-point mini-BBEG was using to have a chance against the end-point full BBEG. Or at least that it has a good set of enhancements that work well against the BBEG. "Boy, it sure would have been nice if our Barbarian could have used that +1 Bane: Humans greatsword against that Human BBEG."