Flanking my boss -- how to deter?


Advice


Boss is a single powerful human fighter-type. The PCs will of course surround and flank him, getting +2 on everything and SAs from the sneaky types. How can I at least deter this?

I can back him into a corner, of course. That's easy and simple, and it works. The problem is (1) I've done it a couple of times already with single opponents, so it's getting to be a thing; and, (2)it doesn't really fit this guy thematically -- he's not stupid, but he's pretty fearless. Also, I dunno, "he backs into a corner" just seems kinda lame.

But what else is there? It's him alone, or nearly. So "have a wizard friend cast AoE spells" doesn't work, nor does "have allies counterflank". He's a fighter type, so no uncanny dodge. I can crank his AC higher, I suppose. Seems a little mechanical, though. And I'm not opposed to the PCs surrounding this guy and bringing him down like a pack of hounds on a bear. I'm just looking for ways to make it a little less... automatic.

Anyone?

Doug M.

Grand Lodge

Five foot steps, and the Flanking Foil feat.

Why are you against PCs flanking an enemy?

Sovereign Court

Shrewd Tactician feat will help somewhat with that. I think it's in ultimate combat.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Five foot steps, and the Flanking Foil feat.

Wow, great feat. I wasn't aware of its existence before. Definitely giving him this. Thank you.

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Why are you against PCs flanking an enemy?

Dude.


could he get uncanny dodge somehow? (e.g. make him a barbarian instead of a fighter, or maybe there's an archetype or something).
Fortification on his armor would help with the SAs (right?).

the fight could be in a weird spot (in a foggy room or on a 5' wide tree limb or something).

Maybe he could UMD or have an item that lets him use aversion or antipathy or whatever spell it is that prevents you from approaching the guy (somebody did that to my rogue once, that sucked).

But in general yeah, it sucks to be flanked. Maybe he should have thought of that before fighting a roomful of PCs by himself...


Cylyria wrote:
Shrewd Tactician feat will help somewhat with that. I think it's in ultimate combat.

Now this is exactly the sort of thing I point to when talking about feat bloat. Shrewd Tactician is an okay feat, not horrible -- but Flanking Foil is clearly superior. FF doesn't have any prerequisites (Shrewd Tactician is the third feat in a feat chain!) and it shuts down SA damage, which ST does not. FF is from Ultimate Combat, while ST is from the Skull & Shackles AP.

(I don't consider FF overpowered -- it's a nice feat, but situational -- so if I were in charge, I'd do something to make ST more different and better. But yeah, this is the sort of problem any system runs into as the years pass and the splatbooks multiply.)

Doug M.

Grand Lodge

You could just Bull Rush enemies out of their flanking position.

There is also the Reposition combat maneuver.


jerrys wrote:

could he get uncanny dodge somehow? (e.g. make him a barbarian instead of a fighter, or maybe there's an archetype or something).

Fortification on his armor would help with the SAs (right?).

the fight could be in a weird spot (in a foggy room or on a 5' wide tree limb or something).

All of these are great ideas that I may return to. Fortification, check -- the current boss is too low level for it, but it's a good one. (Even if it does end up giving fortified armor to the PCs. 5' tree branch (or ledge, or narrow corridor)... also good. Thanks!

(Does fog stop flanking? I know concealment stops SAs -- which I join with James Jacobs in viewing as an error; your rogue should be able to stab people in that shadowy alley. But does it do anything about flanking?)

Quote:
But in general yeah, it sucks to be flanked. Maybe he should have thought of that before fighting a roomful of PCs by himself.

Heh. -- Well, he doesn't really have a choice; the PCs are going to be between him and freedom.

Doug M.


I think the big difference, that balances out Shrewd Tactician, is that it shuts down flanking for everything but sneak attack.

Flanking Foil only shuts down one flanker, and only if you hit him. Yes, it shuts his sneak attack down, too.

But ST is an automatic nullification of every flanker's bonus. Oh, and it reduces effectiveness of feinting (if your players use that).

Given that it ends all flanking bonuses, I think having a couple pre-reqs isn't too bad.

Caveat: I haven't seen either in play, so I can't speak to their actual effectiveness. Nor have I taken an in-depth look at how much synergy there is between the pre-req feats & ST to make it a viable investment for any given build. I'm just saying that, on its face, I think ST has sufficient benefits that make it a good choice for smart / perceptive fighters.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

You could just Bull Rush enemies out of their flanking position.

There is also the Reposition combat maneuver.

Burns standard actions, and doesn't really help -- PC just moves on the next round and reflanks. (This is lowish level, so iterative attacks not an issue.)

Doug M.

Grand Lodge

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Well, disarm stops them from threatening.

Dirty Trick can be used to nauseate, or blind them.

Reach weapons can help stop them from getting too close.

Snag Nets can be used to entangle foes, eating up their actions.

You can combine Whirlwind Attack with Sunder, Trip, or Disarm attempts.


I like the way BBT thinks here.

Though since Doug is specifying lowish levels, he might not have the feats free to make Whirlwind Attack + CM's viable (that is, he'll probably be provoking AoO's during that routine).

Grand Lodge

Combat Reflexes, combined with a reach weapon, and the withdraw action can do it.

They move in to flank, you withdraw, they move in again, provoke, and you trip them.

Rinse, and repeat.


Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
Boss is a single powerful human fighter-type.

So your fighter captain doesn't know how to hire low level warriors? Give him 2 or 3 first or second level warriors and have THEM utilize repositions, bull rushes, and trip combat maneuvers to put the more powerful boss into favorable positions against the party. If you're worried about the possibility of this turning poorly for your players, have the mooks utilize only combat maneuvers or make them monks and have them deal non-lethal damage. You can always have the boss decide that if things are going in his favor, the PCs are more valuable to him alive and choose to non-lethal damage them until they go unconscious. He can then sell them into slavery and now your PCs have to jail break themselves (maybe with the help of an ally or two if a few decide to escape) and then take their revenge on their short term (or long term if the story benefits more from it) arch nemesis.

Just some ideas & brain storming there. Best of luck!


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MechE_ wrote:
Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
Boss is a single powerful human fighter-type.
So your fighter captain doesn't know how to hire low level warriors? Give him 2 or 3 first or second level warriors and have THEM utilize repositions, bull rushes, and trip combat maneuvers to put the more powerful boss into favorable positions against the party.

This is the biggest thing I've learned as a GM. The boss should never be so foolish as to isolate himself from his support network. When the PCs fight him, if they just kick down the door, he should have a decent number of lower-challenge mooks to help keep people off his back. They start out spread apart enough to avoid losing all of them to AoE's.

Of course, if the PCs are smart enough to flush him out & catch him exposed, they've already earned their opportunity to gang-up.

If his AC & HP are high enough to handle a few rounds of battering, then his guards can always be on a timer-delay to show up & start the bull-rushing / repositioning. Or, for that matter, since they can appear from any direction, they can immediately fall on the exposed casters, since the melee guys are all tied up surrounding the big-boss.

That's a good part of the way to make everyone in the party relevant, the sneaky guys, with caster support, isolate the target via subterfuge &/or AoE spells, the melee types are rewarded with at least somewhat effective flanking options. If the PCs aren't smart enough to isolate the guy, he's got support to keep him from getting flanked easily.


Fighter boss takes a potion of blur and gains concealment, no SA. cost for 2nd level potion is worth it as concealment negates sneak attack, even just 20%. Concealment is concealment.

RAW

The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.


Guys,

The boss is a captive. The PCs are breaking into his cell (they don't know this yet). He's hostile to the PCs and will almost certainly try to kill them. They have good reason to dislike him, too. Think of it like, the PCs think they're going to rescue the Princess... but when they get there, it's actually Baron Bastard. The Baron is evil, he hates the PCs and vice versa, and he's busy trying to escape in his own right -- he's already knocked out two guards and armed himself. The PCs are all that stands between him and freedom.

So he doesn't have minions and he doesn't have magic items. Which is good, because otherwise he'd kill the PCs without breaking much of a sweat... he's a lot higher level than they are. Him having minimal equipment and no minions or magic makes this a fairish fight, something like CR+2 or +3 instead of CR+4.

Doug M.

The Exchange

Grappled opponents cannot flank, so a few minions can help here. It doesn't sound like its the answer you want though.

How about Whirlwind attack, spring attack chain with the magic item ignoring difficult terrain.

Edit: looks like I just though I was at the bottom of the thread lol, missed your additional info.


Quote:

So he doesn't have minions and he doesn't have magic items. Which is good, because otherwise he'd kill the PCs without breaking much of a sweat... he's a lot higher level than they are. Him having minimal equipment and no minions or magic makes this a fairish fight, something like CR+2 or +3 instead of CR+4.

Doug M.

He's doomed. Action economy will slaughter him. If you want him to survive, you'll need to change this up.

If he's high enough level over them to negate that, you'll need to play him very carefully to avoid a TPK, more likely than not.


If the enemy hears them coming, have him retreat slightly into his cell to limit the avenues of approach. If he stands in the doorway of the cell, then the players can't get behind him. At best (assuming you have the cell line up on the middle of the squares instead of on the lines), they could be in a "squeeze" position flank, which would be a penalty to attack rolls anyway.


If it's a prison-break scenario, adding in a few low-level minions isn't that hard. Maybe a couple of his own lackeys came to help him bust out. Maybe he freed another couple prisoners on the condition that they swear loyalty to him. Heck, maybe he bribed the guards into letting him go.

Bottom line, the "One Big Boss" types of fights just don't work well in Pathfinder. Like others have said, action economy and the rules of the game are not kind to those sorts of fights.


Chengar Qordath wrote:


Bottom line, the "One Big Boss" types of fights just don't work well in Pathfinder. Like others have said, action economy and the rules of the game are not kind to those sorts of fights.

Yeah, I know. I'm looking for workarounds. He's going to go down anyway, most likely -- he's a boss, but not a top boss. That's fine. I'm just looking for ways to make it a little more interesting than "we all surround and flank him and chop him up".

Doug M.


The P.C's will just close the cell door and leave him there maybe take pot shots with arrows.


That's why he stands in the doorway. The PCs can't close the door on him then.


So they us one of the dozen ways to move someone 5 feet back or even just ignore him and walk by forcing him to chase them. If he has to stay in the door he loses all initiative (tactile sense) because the P.C.'s can just step back at any time don't even need a tank in that case.

Scarab Sages

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

So, the bad guy wants to escape, doesn't have any of his gear or allies with him... this is easy. He shouldn't fight. Unless he's a mindless orc, his objective is NOT kill the heroes. It's ESCAPE THE PRISON. So... have him bull rush a weaker PC off a ledge or something while he makes a run for it, someone has to save the dangling halfling cleric while the armored fighter tries to chase down the big bad, who is running ahead, jamming doors shut, maybe stopping for a second on the other side to get a cheap shot in on a PC, but spends his move actions fleeing.

A good chase scene can be cinematic. Especially if there is some interesting terrain... a locked door to smash through, an overturned washtub spilling soapy water over a stairwell, a closing drawbridge to leap, maybe they even make it outside and have to quickly mount a horse and spur it (see ride skill) to catch the fleeing villain!

The PCs have 0 chance of dying to this tactic, so you can give him a little extra juice so you don't have to worry about "you lose initiative, you die" if they successfully catch him, hooray they feel great about the win, but if they don't, now they are responsible for freeing a new bad guy, and maybe feel guilty about it, compelling them to track him down while he rebuilds his (evil empire, crime family, gang of bank robbers, death cult) et cetera

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Of course if your group is less into cinema and more into rollin dice for big damages hur hur hur just take great cleave and power attack, maybe shield of swings so he can't one-hit you champs and will get a lot harder to hit even in flanking.

if you're worried about adjacency requirements for cleave, make him a dwarf (racial feat Orc Hewer (?) lets you ignore adjacency requirements vs medium enemies)


One level of Maneuver Master Monk can give you an extra combat maneuver every time you full attack. Also, there are a couple rage powers that let you do maneuvers in place of an attack instead of as a standard. Improved Disarm could turn the tables as well, giving him a weapon and keeping the PC's from threatening.


A High acrobatics check and he is right next to the wizard, and ready to grabble :-D

Then let him use the grabbed wizard as a shield...


You could just use a Robe of Eyes. If you don't want to drop a 120,000 gp item, get rid of the other abilities it provides besides all-around vision.


Make the guy have a few body guard mooks. Due to the action economy alone the PCs will probably win this encounter if it's just a single enemy. Give him a buddy with a trip weapon. My personal favorite body guard involves a Flying Blade Fighter with Combat Patrol, and Improved and Greater Trip.


I rather like the baddie attempting to literally force his way out of prison. Make him an Unarmed Fighter (archetype in UC) with Iron Will and see if anyone can stop him. He's got a goal - and that includes a window or anything else he can dive/jump through to escape, presumably via conveniently placed river some considerable distance below.


AmosTrask32 wrote:
So, the bad guy wants to escape, doesn't have any of his gear or allies with him... this is easy. He shouldn't fight. Unless he's a mindless orc, his objective is NOT kill the heroes. It's ESCAPE THE PRISON.

It's unlikely (though not quite impossible) that he'll be able to escape. The PCs are in his way, so he really has no choice but to fight them. A cinematic chase scene is certainly possible, but it's not what I'm after here. There's a question -- WTH is he doing here, and where's the princess? (Not actually a princess. But the PCs are reasonably expecting someone else, not him.) Do the PCs try to negotiate this information out of him? (They're good-aligned, so torture not really an option -- though of course, that one guy will always try.) As it turns out, they can't -- Baron B. will attack them and fight to the death rather than tell them anything. What's that all about? Why...?

Well, that's the mystery. But in terms of what ensues, I want a combat, not a chase. I just want to make it a bit more interesting than the standard surround-flank-hack-hack-hack, if possible. Also, the PCs know that the Baron is a badass. I want them to have the interesting experience of fighting a higher level NPC who would normally be able to wax them -- except that he's stuck without his normal magic items, his high-quality equipment, and his servants. Bad luck for him, to be sure... but I still want to make this interesting and memorable.

(Now that I've explained -- twice -- why there aren't minions or magic items, can people stop suggesting minions and magic items? Thnx.)

Doug M.


Another option: up-ended tables for cover/difficult terrain. Perhaps he's just armed himself, but he hears the PCs in time to upend the table and hide behind it. When the PCs go in to investigate, the open cell and downed guards, he attempts to trip one and run past the rest as part of the escape.


Everything BBT said plus. Whirlwind to trip and/or hit everyone. Combat Reflexes to AoO when they try to stand. Add Combat Patrol and reach weapon to get them when they move to flank.


Set fire on the prison! Have him stand with his back near a fire, if they wanna flank him, they take fire damage?

Bonuses to disarm and 5ft spam is a fairly decent way to go, perhaps he stole a shield from the guard as well, it might help.

I tend to /cheat/ a bit with boss fights, give them special attacks, like throwing a stool at their feet that might Prone them, or a short range breath attack by grabbing a torch and setting fire to the spirits he found at the guards desk. If you're evil and smart, there's plenty of things to do.

Cover a guard in spirits then toss a torch on him mid-fight. Release the inmates before hand, toss junk around to make difficult terrain. The Catch Off-guard feat is a decent one for bosses, if you wing it a bit and allow them to use things around them to hassle the PC's, especially when combined with Dirty Fighting.


Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
AmosTrask32 wrote:
So, the bad guy wants to escape, doesn't have any of his gear or allies with him... this is easy. He shouldn't fight. Unless he's a mindless orc, his objective is NOT kill the heroes. It's ESCAPE THE PRISON.

It's unlikely (though not quite impossible) that he'll be able to escape. The PCs are in his way, so he really has no choice but to fight them. A cinematic chase scene is certainly possible, but it's not what I'm after here. There's a question -- WTH is he doing here, and where's the princess? (Not actually a princess. But the PCs are reasonably expecting someone else, not him.) Do the PCs try to negotiate this information out of him? (They're good-aligned, so torture not really an option -- though of course, that one guy will always try.) As it turns out, they can't -- Baron B. will attack them and fight to the death rather than tell them anything. What's that all about? Why...?

Well, that's the mystery. But in terms of what ensues, I want a combat, not a chase. I just want to make it a bit more interesting than the standard surround-flank-hack-hack-hack, if possible. Also, the PCs know that the Baron is a badass. I want them to have the interesting experience of fighting a higher level NPC who would normally be able to wax them -- except that he's stuck without his normal magic items, his high-quality equipment, and his servants. Bad luck for him, to be sure... but I still want to make this interesting and memorable.

(Now that I've explained -- twice -- why there aren't minions or magic items, can people stop suggesting minions and magic items? Thnx.)

Doug M.

Cad and/or Unarmed Fighter, going on memory, pack some mean punch potential with Greater Dirty Trick and Quick Dirty Trick. He'll sack 'em in the 'nads, eye poke 'em blind, throat punch 'em silent and otherwise dump massively unpleasant conditions upon them in a right hurry.

The only way this guy has a chance of surviving is along these lines as far as I can tell. You can't flank when you can't see and your other buddy is barfing up his lunch.

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