In creating a Cleric/Wizard that I plan on moving into MT later. My question has to do with spell specialization and cross class spells. He's a specialist conjurer, and I was thinking of specializing in Summon Monster, which both classes get. First off, does the spell receive the benefits regardless of which list it comes from? And furthermore, does the Conjurer boost to Conjuration spells count on both spell lists? I'm also open to spell suggestions. He's chosen necromancy and enchantment as his cross school and I'm looking to sick to that in both classes, for the most part (healing being an obvious exception. )
The feat spell specialization would benefit the spell no matter what list it comes from. The Summoner's Charm will also work but it is based off your level of Wizard not your caster level so you will not get much out of it.
Also your opposition schools only apply to your Wizard spells not your Cleric spells.
actually, cure spells are conjuration now. summoner's charm says "Whenever you cast a conjuration (summoning) spell" without any stipulation about arcane/divine, from this class, or anything like that- so, RAW it would apply to both (it'll be a small bonus though, since its based on actual wizard levels not caster level...). spell specialization seems like it should affect a summon monster no matter what class you cast it from, though the second paragraph definitely muddies the water a bit... if its for PFS play search those boards and/or ask on them, if its for a home game just ask your GM (personally, i'd let it fly in my campaigns but your GM has the final say in his world).
edit: ninja'd
Are you open to critique on the build?
Also, your summons are going to be majorly weak since they'll be 1 or 2 spell levels behind what they could be for a single-classed character. Even when you single class and take Augment Summoning, by the time you get to the level where monsters have DR your summons are already not doing enough damage. If you're fighting CR 8 creatures and bringing out CR 2 summons... they'll provide flanking, but that's pretty much it.
Skip Augment Summoning? That brings your power level from weak to nonexistent. +2 to attack and damage is great, and the CON doesn't hurt either (not necessarily for the hit points because how often do summons actually go to 0 HP, but a lot of nice secondary effects you get on hits have save DCs that are either CON or STR based.)
Druid is a good idea, though, especially so you can take a Shaman archetype and summon as a standard action.
imho, summoned monsters tend not to be as good as people think they will be- you really need to be using the highest level summon for them to be very relevant... which makes multi-classing one not a great option (since you'll always be behind on the highest summon monster you can cast). really, if you want to summon things make a summoner- eidolons can be crazy good and you'll always have a bunch of the best SM as a SLA.
The +2 can easily be made up with bless/prayer/bull strength typ-ish spells. More options so if the OP takes druid.
If your best option for a standard action is casting Bull's Strength on a summon, you might as well just curl up and let the party fight without you.
Lets not overreact now. I usually summon a bit before and buff them but then again a conjuration + extend MM rod makes that nice and long (1 round/caster level * 1.5 * 2). But honestly MT is not great for summoning badassertry (yeap thats a word now, coining it). But its rare you make a class that can summon a T-rex, strong jaw + animal growth it then haste and Call the Void/silence/darkness centered on them. I can tell you thats a frightning combo.
But seriously, how many times in a campaign will you be able to do that? Just use scrolls to do all that when you actually have that much time to prep a fight, and when you don't have time to prep, as a single-class Saurian Shaman you can throw down 1d3+1 Augmented T-Rexs as a standard action instead of spending a full round trying to get off some lackluster summon.
Summon monster can be great, though summons can easily countered as well. In general, from my personal experience, I would say summoning is worth it if
- the summons have special abilities like healing, blur, cone attacks etc.
- they provide benefits just by being there - for example summoning them into flanking position for the rogue/vivisectionist alchemsit/ninja/whatever -, blocking corridors, threatening casters etc.
- you need flexibility from a single spell
- you need an "expendable" creature, e.g. for disarming etc.
- you can summon several "good enough" creatures instead of just one
- you can afford not to dump too much into it, e.g. your concepts does not require you to get every single summon spell there is but just certain ones like summon swarm, summon monster III etc.
- you can remain hidden, invisible or the like while doing it
- you have reliable means of communicating with them where necessary
- you are prepared enough to not hold up gameplay too much
There are lots of ways how you can benefit from summons without them themselves being powerful. If you have intelligent summons with whom you can communicate, they can aid another on you or the melee ally and thus ensure hits and effectivity.
They can spring traps, carry you or equipment, concentrate abilities on foes etc. Or, as another example, once in a campaign, my cleric summoned a dog to fulfill a sacrificial requirement which required the life force of a creature to open the way for the party to move on - without having to risk a party member for this.
Augment summoning is cool and helpful, but others like sacred summons can also be worth it. My cleric used the latter one with Azatas to fantastic effect - investing in a feat that could effectively work only with three creatures on the summoning list totally paid off...
Regarding Mystic Theurge: Unless you start at a high level, I suggest to have more levels in one class than the minimum before you start with the other one. For example, having 4th level spells in two classes (cleric 3/wizard 3/MT 4) at level 10 is more painful IMO then having 3rd level spells in one class at level 5 and then 2nd level spells at 8th level in another class and then going into MT to get 4th and 3rd level spells an level 10 (e.g. wizard 5/cleric 3/MT 2). Though it is less optimal from a pure spellcasting distribution, you reach the higher levels more reliably since you gain the important 3rd levels spells without delay, and you gain some good class features.
When you can, I would also try to reduce MAD, i.e. go with empyreal sorcerer/divine WIS based caster combo.
Hope this helps :-)
Edit: spell levels
If you are permitted 3rd party material, check out the Super genius games magister. Its really important if you are going to focus on summoning to maintain your spell levels, which you lose with the MT. Magister is a balanced but effective way to mix spell lists. You can even get the conjuration school powers for your summoning if you really want them.
Yeah, I'm going to echo the majority of the thread: summoning is not the strength of the Mystic Theurge. Buffing, battlefield control, out of battle utility, and the debuffs that don't have saves would be my focus.
A MT's biggest strength is the number of spells they have, but none of those spells are going to be competitive with the CR of the monsters you'll be facing. If you want to summon, I'd stick with any of the 4 classes that do it well. Summoner and Druid are particularly good at it, but Conjuration Wizard and Cleric aren't slackers at it either.
MT as some great abilities and options, especially at high levls. Summoning stuff, not at all. My Suggestion, which I will assume will be shot down fast than a Zero vrs and F-22 would be unversalist and Cleric. Reasoning being going to MT will kill later boost that pure wiz or cleric gets, but the amount of spell and versatility you have is second to none really. Just my 2 Cp on the matter.
Lots of really great advice, folks, thanks! I will take some and use it, but I'm afraid the vast majority will be disregarded. Not because it isn't good, but merely because I have a flavour idea for a character and I'm not going to let optimization get in the way of it. ;)
And to drive even more of you nuts, I'll give you more details on the party I'll be playing in. The other two players will be playing a sorcerer heading for dragon disciple and the other is playing a Druid with an animal companion who plans on fighting along side it. Yup, it's going to be an all caster party. Its either going to be awesome or TPK, either way it should be interesting. This is one reason I wasn't too concerned with being totally optimal with the summoning. There's going to be lots of spells being tossed around of all sorts (especially since I have taken the Create Wonderous Item feat and plan on making Pages of Spell Knowledge to round out the sorc), so with all that magic in the air, I'm sure that the fact that my summons will be a little light isn't going to matter much in the long run. Or maybe it will and I'll rue the day I ignored all this good advice. I promise that if things go south in a big way, I'll come back and post it so I can bask in the "I told you so" glory. ;)
We'll be starting at third level, I've chosen C2/W1 to start at, and we can pick our starting goods up to 3k gp max. So, with that in mind, could we switch to items and spells? What should I be looking at? I have a few ideas already and have got a tentative spell list worked up, but there seems to be a LOT of overlap on the two lists and I'm a bit overwhelmed. We have most of the hardcovers and I can take anything from them I can afford, but my DM might be willing to allow third party gear/spells after inspection. Any juicy recommendations?
Quick tid-bit, I was torn between creating this summoner/item creationist and a necromancer/death priest and going all Army of the Dead like her.
The feat Sacred Summons, this would be a good thing for my MT, would it not? How did this get missed in Summoner recommendations? :-)
Sacred Summons sucks. At first glance it seems good, but it is not that great. The monster has to match your aura(the alignment of your deity) exactly. Now if you look at the summon monster list, very few monsters will actually benefit from this feat.
PS: An all caster party is very powerful especially once you get past the low levels, and a druid is not bad at fighting, if it is built well.
Hmmm, I see your point. The deity I worship is the LN God of Magic. Lots of creatures have the lawful subtype, but all mix it with another. That sucks. Wonder if my GM will allow some tweaking of the lists, toss the chaotic ones for some LN types...
Any precedent for that somewhere?
Hmmm, I see your point. The deity I worship is the LN God of Magic. Lots of creatures have the lawful subtype, but all mix it with another. That sucks. Wonder if my GM will allow some tweaking of the lists, toss the chaotic ones for some LN types...
Any precedent for that somewhere?
Various books have alternate monsters for the summon monster list.
This page has alternates, but it does not have the alignments listed.
Due to a bit of confusion on my part and my GM trusting me a little too much, I have to replace a fest (Craft Wondrous Object). So, I've narrowed it down to a short list if four feats. In order of preference; Extra Traits (magical knack and hedge magician or natural born leader), Theurgy, Mage's Tattoo or Master of the Ledger. I'm open to opinions on which would be the most useful, as well as other feat options. (Sorry for the lack of hotlinks, I'm on my phone.)
Ok, decided to take the Extra Traits feat and took Magical Knack and Hedge Magician. The Magical Knack feat seems perfect for the MT, since it gets my caster level back up to where it should be. I still miss out on a spell level, but at least my durations and such don't totally suck.
And speaking of which, having one level of Wizard, he can keep his summoned meat shield around for 6 rounds. One for Wizard, one for specialist Conjurer, two for Spell Specialization(SumMonI) and two for magical knack. Thought I'd toss that out there for anyone thinking of building a MT, as well as to have others check my work. I think all those items play well together, but it wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong. :)
Spell Specialization... on summon monster 1...
*goes and looks up spell spec again*
Oh, thank the Heavens. You can move it every two levels. *Whew*
Okay then, have fun with that. :)
Yes, I wouldn't even have considered it if I couldn't move it to a better spell down the road. I was looking at a couple of feats/traits that did similar things as Spell Spec, but they were "pick a spell for all time" types and I haven't come across anything that I either, A) have currently and B) could conceivably want to keep using into the highest levels. If someone has a good first/second level spell recommendation for a spell that would continue to be useful even at high level, I'd love to hear it. :)