Thirteen level parties normally just walk up to entrenched enemy positions.
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What exactly is the objection to a PC death at this point? Level 13 PCs are assumed to have access to resurrection, and have long since been assumed to have access to raise dead or reincarnate. If a PC or two dies in Akuvskaya, they can retreat, make use of these abilities, and plan a new approach with smarter tactics.
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If the party's just marching up the road in a line, despite seeing the plume of smoke from the burning of Akuvskaya on the horizon, and despite having supposedly learned the lesson of caution from Maiden, Mother, Crone and The Frozen Stars, they deserve whatever happens to them. There is no mandate on the GM to save PCs from the players' intemperance.
If the party's just marching up the road in a line, despite seeing the plume of smoke from the burning of Akuvskaya on the horizon, and despite having supposedly learned the lesson of caution from Maiden, Mother, Crone and The Frozen Stars, they deserve whatever happens to them. There is no mandate on the GM to save PCs from the players' intemperance.
Bingo!
Sorry, if you only want softball encounters, AP's are not for you. They have a lot of those, but at times there are things which are tougher than expected. And your repeated cries of "TPK!" really are overwrought.
Name one.
I'll give you three off the top of my head.
Air Elemental in Trial of the Beast (Carrion Crown)
Erinyes in Trial of the Beast (Carrion Crown)
Shadow Demon in Children of the Void (Second Darkness)
And others. But those are the ones which come immediately to mind.
With 300 dam to all chars in 2 rounds its not overwrought to see the ptotential for TPK.
Theorycrafting and actual play are different beasts. I've GM'ed five campaigns to their conclusion ( i.e. level 20 or in case of AP's level 15-17 ) and high level play is where players stop just walking up to danger. They scout it out carefully, then alpha strike it. Parties who don't do that either don't survive until the high levels or have a GM who takes pity upon them or they already overwhelm the AP expectations by their numbers/equipment/stats.
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My group had to reset after TPK fighting the Bloat Mage and about a zillion guards in CotCT. There's also a really nasty fight against ghouls in Carrion Crown early enough that Paralysis is no frakking joke.
In any case, I have to agree with Magnuskn here. If my PC's casually walk into a mine field and get shot to hell, they deserve it. We'll reset and they'll have a (useful for me) respect and fear of the modern weapons being turned against them.
If you ask me, that's the true point of the encounter. Up the tension by killing or seriously hurting the party. Make them feel like they need to sneak or be tricky in the upcoming areas so that it doesn't happen again.
TPK with Erinye?
Trial of the Beast is for a party starting at 4th and ending at 7th. Thus, a party (minus Races like Strix, and maybe the caster at the end of the book) that can't fly.
Flying enemy.
With a really nasty bow.
And a rope that can entangle unlimited/day.
And permanent true seeing.
And, the kicker, unholy blight AT WILL. If your party is Good, you are SCREWED.
Flies away, out of range of short-range (25 + 5/2 lvls) spells. Resistance, awesome saves, and SR take care of most medium- and long-range spells. DR takes care of arrows. Flies up above the party, out of reach of the meleers, and peppers them with unholy blight or arrows. Every round. Until they die or retreat. Unless the party has a Paladin (who can probably shrug off the blight effects, or get rid of them with Mercies) who can weapon bond his/her bow, or just so happen to have a holy bow on-hand, there's probably very little they can do unless the GM throws them a bone and has the Erinyes come down and melee with them instead.
So yes, one Erinyes at those levels is a VERY possible TPK.
TPK with Erinye?
Air elemental a little more likely, but still pretty low. And will take several rounds unless very lucky.
A huge Air Elemental on a bridge with a 150-200 feet drop into water. The Erinyes is guarding another one of those bridges. Read up on those encounters in the obituary thread of the Carrion Crown sub-forum, their lethality is well documented.
I take what the AP writes how things are supposed to happen. Result is TPK or close to. I did not see that in any AP from Carrion Crwon onwards, with exception of boss fights, but there the AP authors are aware about what they throw at the party.
AP authors also generally have a well documented history of generally providing crap tactics for most of the monsters, to softball the encounters. Also, print space is an issue, so Brandon probably figured that he'd only provide one approach to the encampment. Players have a way of subverting GM expectations, anyway.
How many campaigns have you GM'ed? Just asking.
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And by "casually walk into a minefield", you mean leave the Hut, see no immediate threat and go to investigate the nearby village. Without using up a bunch of shortterm protective/stealth magic with no real reason to.
See the thing is this is a group of high level adventurers who've faced down a tripartite dungeon on another continent and a whole other planet. The only way that they "see no immediate threat" is if they go outside, use their normal old eyes and act like a bunch a morons. I expect more from my players than that. You should, too. I have a two year old. I'm not babysitting my 30 year old friends. Blue's Clues with my daughter, serious grown up use your critical thinking skills time with my friends.
Should it be assumed that the party needs to sneak/be tricky at all times?
Nope, but if they don't even try particularly hard to locate danger sneaky would be a good back up plan.
And it's not really clear how sneaky they should be able to be. The locals have to have noticed the Hut right? It's pretty obvious. They're just waiting for targets to exit and come within range.
It is clear to me. As long as they stay out of visual range (it's dark and they aren't using spot light or anything immediately) they can do something sneaky. Read up on rules for light a visual perception.
I'm not sure the author isn't aware. It's a CR13 trap, a CR14 encounter and a CR12 encounter all triggered at the same time. Which is pretty epic for a 13th level party.
Only triggered at the same time if your players act stupid.
I really hope the "true point of the encounter" isn't to "Up the tension by killing or seriously hurting the party." Especially killing. Many groups won't reset. Killing and resetting doesn't usually up the tension, but kill it.
I don't get this. What do groups that don't reset do when they TPK? Give up on the AP and go play MTG? Make up some cockamamie reason why 4 all new individuals suddenly show up on Earth with a desire to punch Rasputin in the throat? How do you keep up any sort of narrative like that?
Maybe this comes down to a philosophical difference but me and my players are playing to tell a story. One that has narrative consistency, character development, and an ending. I don't just kill them off because a d6 told me to. I'd respectfully suggest that if they walk into the meat grinder that you let them reset with their new healthy fear of machine guns and mortars.
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I don't get this. What do groups that don't reset do when they TPK? Give up on the AP and go play MTG?
For a lot of groups, yeah. If they TPK, that's the end of that story, they either start a new one or go play a different game. Those are the same sort of groups that would say your comment about "resetting with a new fear of mortars" would be considered metagaming.
I've never had a TPK, but I've had a few close calls, and I generally come up with numerous back-up plans for if I do kill 'em all, because I'm of the mindset that - especially this far in - I want to see the story to its end. Maybe the party wakes up captured but alive, or something like that. But a lot of groups do play like that - if the dice fall that way, party dies, game over, either new story time or let's go do something else.
And by "casually walk into a minefield", you mean leave the Hut, see no immediate threat and go to investigate the nearby village. Without using up a bunch of shortterm protective/stealth magic with no real reason to.See the thing is this is a group of high level adventurers who've faced down a tripartite dungeon on another continent and a whole other planet. The only way that they "see no immediate threat" is if they go outside, use their normal old eyes and act like a bunch a morons. I expect more from my players than that. You should, too. I have a two year old. I'm not babysitting my 30 year old friends. Blue's Clues with my daughter, serious grown up use your critical thinking skills time with my friends.
Should it be assumed that the party needs to sneak/be tricky at all times?Nope, but if they don't even try particularly hard to locate danger sneaky would be a good back up plan.
And it's not really clear how sneaky they should be able to be. The locals have to have noticed the Hut right? It's pretty obvious. They're just waiting for targets to exit and come within range.It is clear to me. As long as they stay out of visual range (it's dark and they aren't using spot light or anything immediately) they can do something sneaky. Read up on rules for light a visual perception.
I'm not sure the author isn't aware. It's a CR13 trap, a CR14 encounter and a CR12 encounter all triggered at the same time. Which is pretty epic for a 13th level party.Only triggered at the same time if your players act stupid.
Again, the expectation presented in the AP is that they're all triggered at the same time.
I guess the PCs should wait in the Hut until dark (It's described as "crisp cold morning" when they exit, but they could peek out and then wait.) Of course sitting around another day, trapped in a fixed location might not be the best idea.
And do they do...
No, the expectation of Rasputin's troops is that they will all trigger at the same time. The AP presents the Russian's strategy, and leaves it to the PCs to subvert it. Moreover, I think you're not accounting for the possibilities for Reflex saves--and consequently evasion, among other defensive abilities that may well be in play.
"I summon an Elk and send it down the road." ;)
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I’d like to point out that mere moments before stepping out into this deathtrap The Coffin Man paints a pretty grim picture :
“world gripped by war, in a frozen country stillborn in bloody revolution.”
“army bristling with strange weapons, the sting of which the PCs have never felt.”
As well as describing a man capable of running a plot that can thwart a near demigod.
So I think the better question is why wouldn’t your players be on high alert?
Hubris? Short term memory loss?
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No, the expectation of Rasputin's troops is that they will all trigger at the same time. The AP presents the Russian's strategy, and leaves it to the PCs to subvert it.
This.
Pretty much this. That's why we try to avoid TPKs. Because they're bad. They're game ending.
We've reset once or twice. Generally when we realized the TPK was due to an out-of-game misunderstanding. TPKing due to a hard fight or bad tactics and then going back to a "save game" point is what I'd consider the equivalent of "babysitting/Blue's Clues time".
Yep, definitely a philosophical difference.
I'm not baby sitting them when I let them TPK, figure out what went wrong and try again. I'm engaging their critical thinking and problem solving skills, which should have been engaged in the first place. If I played with my daughter and nephews when they're all older I would have to be worried about an encounter like this and pull my punches so they didn't TPK because that's sad and frustrating for a kid. Failing, learning, and trying again and doing better is what I would rather see from my adult players.
All that said, I really only allow a TPK and try again sort of thing if they screw up. As the GM, I'm not a slave to the dice I roll, they are more of a suggestion. If things are going poorly for them because the encounter was designed to be stupid hard or I rolled really well for a while, I cheat subtly and they never know. I'm a storyteller, part of a collaborative story telling effort. Wasting that because the dice said they all die without finishing the story is anathema to me.
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Actually, there is a fascinating way to either recover from a TPK... or run book 5 as a stand-alone adventure. It involves Russian civilians who escaped the destruction of their town and then watched the party get wiped out due to the ambush. The ambush packs up and leaves... and the civilians go out to investigate the dead people (one of whom may have crawled away and not been found).
At that point, have that mostly-dead party member pull a Rider of Baba Yaga and give the mandate to the civilians. As part of the mandate they find themselves with strange mystical powers... and have these Russians end up with class levels (and even Mystic Tiers if you so deem).
So you have humans who suddenly have strange mystical powers and the knowledge that Rasputin, who should be dead, not only ordered their families and loved ones wiped out, but also kidnapped Baba Yaga. Vola! Story hook! ^-^
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Um. I see all these complaints about 300+ dmg a round and I am having a pretty hard time figuring this out.
The Range DIFFERENCES between attacks is pretty astonishing really.
There's a 230ft difference in between the Troops first Mortar Barrage and their first four Fusillades. Then between their Fusillades and their Grenade Volley, there is another 110ft.
Even taking into account the Mines (8d6, DC 21), the Hotchkiss 6 pounder from the Tsar Tank(8d6+1 [Why does it get the +1?], DC 20), and a burst of fire from the Tsar Tanks Maxim (2d8+6, Plus this likely will only hit maybe two PCs), the most I can get for the first blast is 28d6+1 (Averages out to 99 DMG before saving throws) and, for a (un)lucky PC or two, another AVG of 15 DMG from the Maxim.
This COULD drop the mage unconscious (dead if they dumped Con like fools) assuming they didn't make a single saving throw. On the other hand, DC 20 and 21 isn't very high at 13th level. Get cloaks of resistances people! Their pretty cheap.
If the party bum rushes in without taking a moment to get better situated (Fly, Stoneskins, Protection from Arrows, Windwall, Invisibilities, etc.) or healed up, then yeah, they may very well get mowed down (though good tactics such as spreading out could do the trick). But at that point they acted pretty stupidly.
If no mine is detonated, and if they PCs get past both minefields... wait a second. Think about that.
Your party is moving forward and finds traps. They disarm them and move forward further... finding more traps. At this point they should be on high alert. Hell, I could very well see "Invisibility, 10' Radius" used once they realize this is a region where there are lines of traps preventing you from entering.
And once the PCs are invisible, that's +20 to Stealth Rolls. Unless one of the three units rolls a Nat. 20, it's doubtful the PCs will be detected. Even if they are... the other two still don't know where and thus honestly shouldn't attack during the Surprise round.
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So what you're saying then is that a dumb party that doesn't use caution or tactics approaching a burning village after being warned of threats to come ends up suffering a TPK because of three separate enemies and a trap. And there are complaints about this.
Now, if the TPK came after the party was buffed, prepared, and paranoid? I'd see the problem.
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My party just got through this part of the adventure last Friday. I won't go into much detail, but I can safely say that even thou the encounter would have been deadly had they run into it blindly/recklesly.
Ever since the frost giant ambush in book 3, they always scout right after exiting the hut (using the huntmaster's bird companion). So far, every time they had exited the hut, figuring out what was around them has given them a clear advantage (in the 4th book helping them figure out that Bescalye - i think the dragonrider's name was- was around). Additionally, the coffin man not only told them their shadows had passed through there as if rushing somewhere, but was made helpful through the use of cooperative diplomacy and friendly actions (good source of intel apparently). Finally, any player worth their salt that is told there is a small town burned to the ground right outside will be on their toes (and they were), specially when the GM tells them the man way down is a clear snowy descent in between two forests lines (screams ambush really).
Considering all this, the cocky bastards buffed themselves up and figured they would just fly to the town to avoid any traps (and go straight towards the strange colossal wheeled "golem" they had scouted before). By the time they were spotted they had gone trough the right forest area and engaged the enemies on the tank (no landmines, no surprise round for soldiers) with some good old fashion fireball.
By the end of the fight, two characters were down and the troops were routed. The main difficulty was the player's inability to easily counter the strange mechanics of the troop subtype. Funny thing is that they insisted on finding refuge inside the tank right after the firefight (in case reinforcements arrived), and talked to Rasputin from the top of the metal behemoth (which made it all the more dramatic).
My conclusion is that if ALL characters in a party are mindless fighting brutes, who just like to trample through encounters confident in their killing capabilities, this first encounter with modern war will be deadly. However, an experienced party who is capable of using other tactics like diplomacy, scouting, stealth and coordination; and has been of course paying attention through the adventure, should have NO problem getting through this first fight. Honestly, they are given a million hints that something bad is waiting for them.
The buffs that matter for the trenches all last at least 1 min/level with many lasting for 10 min/level. The only way a group gets TPK'd is if they are either phenomenally stupid or phenomenally unlucky after being only semi-stupid. This has been amply demonstrated. It is very possible to completely bypass the mooks without all that much effort by the 13th level PCs.
It's trench warfare, which is horrifically brutal - if 100-300 damage/round doesn't get that across ... nothing will.
That is a problem. I ran into a problem with that with the valley with the Tazylwyrm or however you spell that in the first encounter. I described the snowy area and the PCs went full alert. I realized it was because I described the area.
They got through that. Just as they left the valley, they were attacked. ;)
Thus what you do is periodically create encounters that have no combat. Describe an area. Create a sense of atmosphere and tension. Even have a cat jump out at them (ala Alien). And once they're getting used to that, then spring the trap or encounter.
In this case, however, it's different. Each time they leave the hut you describe a new situation. You pretty much have to. So the PCs just know you're talking about the region, should they have paid attention, and if you periodically create "encounters" that aren't combat but just environmental... then they aren't cued in immediately by description.
You can pull something similar if you have the Skyrim music on CD and periodically, just to toy with the PCs, run the combat theme music. Without an encounter. ;)
The troops can potentially do a lot of damage, but these are 13th level PCs. They are not delicate flowers.
Hell, a 13th level rogue with a decent resistance item could walk through the mine field and soak up fire from everything watching the hut without a scratch - I'd missed the rifle fusilade allows a reflex save for half damage, and these are pretty low save DCs for 13th level.
Your PCs actually all taking 300+ damage and splattering in the opening volley would probably require the stars to align.
I think you're worrying way too much about this, but if it actually happens please be sure to post it to the obituary thread!
The initial fight with the minefields, a tank, the troops, and the corpse orgy is meant to be an eye opener. The party may be a bunch of bad-asses at this point but Rasputin is bringing it.
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Two.
Which pretty much doesnt matter, since you miss what i am talking about. I do not talk about lethality. I talk about TPK. Obituary thread of carrion does not contain any TPK i found and certainly none by air elemental and erinyes. The air elemental can TPK, scooping entire party up with first try, the erinyes cannot, because survivors can always retreat and erinye has not enough damage output to kill 3 fleeing PCs before summon time runs out(the foruth already plunged to death in intial attack).
Just some kills, as expected. But even in those it was often something like "blabla several rounds blabla". With the discussed encounter, if party is in the killing zone, in which the AP expects them to be, it would not be several rounds, either its 2 and TPK or someone got away with dimension door/teleport or someone with evasion/improved evasion.
You know what, I don't care anymore. You obviously don't intend to listen to anything anybody else tells you, so whatever.
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what, I don't care anymore. You obviously don't intend to listen to anything anybody else tells you, so whatever.
Actually, this being the internet... did you expect anything else?
what, I don't care anymore. You obviously don't intend to listen to anything anybody else tells you, so whatever.Actually, this being the internet... did you expect anything else?
See, this is what you get for letting your guard down and trying to be helpful.
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Folks, I want to come in here and interject a little bit before this otherwise very handy GM Reference thread descends into a very unhelpful and chaotic mess.
Carn and others, let's *please* leave it at this within this thread. This is a GM Reference thread, and it would be disappointing for GMs seeking advice in this forum to find 4 pages of back-and-forth "Ermahgerd TPK" and "Nuh-uh!" on this topic, particularly when there was another thread created to address it. Let's move the debate back to where it started.
So, Carn and others concerned with the possibility of TPK, let it suffice that those concerns and the mathematical breakdowns have been noted and are appreciated, and you have successfully provided fair warning to GMs reading this thread that the initial encounter outside the hut can be sufficiently deadly to unprepared PCs. You have established that viewpoint and it is well-noted. Thank you.
Everyone else, thank you for your responses and contributions. And I think *everyone* is right here--Carn included. The numbers can unleash a staggering array of damage on unprepared PCs, but as the writer I think (an opinion obviously shared by many here) that is is reasonable to assume PCs at 13th level will take some precautions as they exit the hut, particularly after the Coffin Man's warnings, either through divinations, scouting, or, you know, common 2nd level spells that *totally* circumvent the troop's Perception and spoil the ambush, like invisibility.
If the 2 pages of debate here haven't satisfied you, PLEASE RETURN the conversation to the thread created to address it, found HERE. Debate away. Theorycraft away. But please do it there, not here. Again, I'm not trying to squelch debate, but I don't want GMs seeking advice on this title to be driven away by pages of vitriol on a single subject when it is addressed more singularly and handily in another thread dedicated to the topic. Thank you.
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Despite Brandon's good reasoning in the post above me, I'd like to add that if people are using the "hero point" system, this encounter can be a real win - it might force the part to expand their allotment for the adventure. Usually I'd say it's a mean trick to force players to use their protection so quickly, but the entire point of this encounter is to say, "you are in a new world, with different rules, you are facing something the like of which youv'e never even heard of". Taking away the PCs hero points in this encounter could instill the sense of dread PCs should be feeling for the rest of the adventure.
not to threadjack a threadjack, but I'm still having some trouble with the swarm/troop concept
Rob talks about some of your inquiries in a bit more official capacity in the The Russians Are Coming! thread found here, and that thread is full of useful discussion and information.
Concerning the troop build, and in short: don't be overwhelmed worrying about equivalency of 30 chukka-kara to a troop statblock meant to represent the same. Make an estimate you feel good about, and build toward the CR you think provides the right challenge for your group, using multiple troops to represent more creatures as necessary. And according to the troop subtype, it doesn't have to be 30 individuals making up the troop, either.
For comparison, 16 CR 3 chukka-karas would be CR 11 on the CR Equivalency table, and that's not a bad starting point to build toward. Otherwise, let instinct and Bestiary Table 1:1 Monster Statistics by CR be your guide, and don't get *too* swept away with a 1:1 equivalency of a similar group of monsters. You're building an abstraction, so work toward what you want to represent without getting frozen in place by a point-by-point representation of a group of individuals. Think of it as a totally new creature.
Similarly, as a GM adjudicating potentially confusing or verisimilitude-breaking spell effects, make calls that you think are fair given the nature of the spell in question. Let a pit do its damage or remove a hit point total roughly commiserate with a percentage of the overall area of the troop the pit covers. Let a disintegrate deal some damage dice or remove hit points equal to a single creature based on how many individuals you imagine making up the troop. It is left rather nebulous so you guys can make those calls, or else that subtype would be 4 pages long, and that's not the game we're playing or writing.
EDIT: *16* (not 18 as previously stated) CR 3 chukka-karas would be CR 11 on the CR Equivalency table
Brandon, I really, really hope you get to expound at length about how you build troops. Be it in an official Paizo product, your own third party product or just by making public your houserules. But I hope really soon, because I love the general concept and would like to use it outside of this module.