Double / Two Handed Weapon clarification


Rules Questions


This is split off from a thread located here. The need for clarification comes from a little ways down in the thread.

Side one of the argument:
That a PC can use a double weapon one handed, and in doing so, only attack with one end without penalty, thus allowing them to switch from two handing one end of the weapon to TWFing with the weapon to pairing the weapon with a shield.

Side two:
While a PC can wield a double weapon in one hand, they run into the rule of wielding a two handed weapon in one hand, and the use in that fashion then incurs penalties.

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Personally, I'm going with side two. It seems that the RAW is not very clear.

So, if you all could take a look at the linked thread and weigh in, I would greatly appreciate it on behalf of my sanity. Thanks.

Liberty's Edge

Sorry, but no. A double weapon cannot be used one-handed unless the character has a feat or ability that allows it: Link.


Being a double weapon pretty much has no effect on the weapon's handedness. A two-handed weapon is still requires two hands to wield.

If you're using a one-handed double weapon or are able to use two-handed weapons in one hand you can use it one-handed.

Also, if you analyze the RAW:

PRD wrote:
A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

The rule for double weapons don't actually change the number of hands needed to wield them. The RAW does not say you can wield a double weapon one-handed, they just explain what happens in the event that you do (and are able to) use the weapon one-handed.

Silver Crusade

If you are using a double weapon made for a creature one or two size categories smaller than you, the (normally two-handed) double weapon counts as a one-handed or light weapon respectively.

Note that, any time you use a double weapon one-handed, for whatever reason, you may only attack with one end of it in any given round.


So a creature WIELDING a double weapon in one-hand can't wield it one-handed?


They can, but they take penalties to their attacks by doing so. If you don't mind the penalty, than swing it one handed all you want.

Silver Crusade

Azaelas Fayth wrote:
So a creature WIELDING a double weapon in one-hand can't wield it one-handed?

If the double weapon is sized for you, then it's a two-handed weapon, so you cannot use it one-handed without some special ability.

If the weapon is sized for a creature one or two sizes smaller than you, then you can use it one-handed.

But, if you are able to use it one-handed, for any reason whatsoever, then you cannot use it as a double weapon in any round where you use it in one hand!

This is because, in order to actually use the 'double' feature of such weapons, you must be using a full attack using the TWF rules, and you must use it two-handed throughout that entire full attack! When using a double weapon in any other way (such as in one hand, or using a standard action to attack, or when executing a full attack without using TWF), it remains a two-handed weapon and follows all the normal rules (unless it's smaller than normal, in which case it follows the normal rules for light or one-handed weapons and can't be used as a double weapon at all).

I hope this is a comprehensive answer, but if I've missed something, let me know. : )


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

I think Malachi has it.


Malachi Silverclaw wrote:
This is because, in order to actually use the 'double' feature of such weapons, you must be using a full attack using the TWF rules, and you must use it two-handed throughout that entire full attack!

Is this the case?

Rules wrote:

Double Weapons: "Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaves, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round."

Double: "You can use a double weapon to fight as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. You can choose to wield one end of a double weapon two-handed, but it cannot be used as a double weapon when wielded in this way—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round."

Here's an example with two otherwise identical fighters.

Tom the level 6 fighter is holding a warhammer in his right hand, and a light pick in his left hand. He can full-attack, making his first attack (from BAB+6) with the warhammer, then make his second attack (from BAB+1) with the pick. Tom is not using the two-weapon fighting rules to gain an extra attack.

Don the level 6 fighter is holding a gnome hooked hammer, using it as a double weapon. He can full-attack, making his first attack (from BAB+6) with the blunt end, then make his second attack (from BAB+1) with the hook. Don is not using the two-weapon fighting rules to gain an extra attack.

In both cases, they would be dealing exactly the same damage, at exactly the same bonuses/penalties.

Tom is fighting with two weapons, and the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat don't apply because he's not gaining an extra attack. Therefore, Don can use his double weapon in exactly the same way. And even though Don must be using two hands on his double weapon the entire time, he's only getting one hand's worth of strength bonus damage.

I think the reason it's written so strangely is that for a long time, people thought you would only ever use two weapons if you were planning on getting the extra attack for doing so.

The rules for resolving attacks with two weapons work identically no matter if you have two different weapons or one single double weapon.
while you wield a double weapon two-handed... the rules treat it as if you were wielding two weapons one-handed.

So the intent is pretty clearly to treat it just as if you were wielding two separate weapons, which means you could attack with them without using the TWF rules if you don't gain the extra attack. Whereas if you use it like a normal two-handed weapon, you then get 1.5x strength, but you can only use one end per round, regardless of how many attacks you make.

Silver Crusade

Quote:
A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

It's a choice to use the 'double' quality, and that choice is only available when using the TWF rules.

Quote:
The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it.

If the character makes this choice (or more precisely, chooses not to use the 'double' quality, then the weapon is used as what it is; a two-handed weapon. (we're talking about a weapon made for your size)

In your example, the fighter using a double weapon but not using TWF, would have one attack at +6 and one attack at +1. Both attacks are made with a two-handed weapon and gain 1.5xStr bonus, and a -1/+3 ratio for Power Attack.

Just like anyone else, he may choose to make each attack with a different end of the weapon, and each attack is a two-handed attack with all that that entails.

Quote:
while you wield a double weapon two-handed... the rules treat it as if you were wielding two weapons one-handed.

James is clarifying how double weapons work when TWFing! He is clarifying that you still need to use it in two hands when you use it to TWF. There was no need for him to clarify how a double weapon works when it's not being used to TWF!

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