Can the Grenadier archetype's Alchemical Weapon (Su) ability be used on thrown Alchemical items and Bombs?

[Secane]

As the above, can the Grenadier archetype's Alchemical Weapon (Su) ability be used on thrown Alchemical items and Bombs?

For example, can I use infuse a Flask of Acid with another Flask of Acid?

Or infuse a Bomb with a Flask of Acid?

Alchemical Weapon (Su) wrote:

Alchemical Weapon (Su): At 2nd level, a grenadier can infuse a weapon or piece of ammunition with a single harmful alchemical liquid or powder, such as alchemist’s fire or sneezing powder, as a move action. This action consumes the alchemical item, but transfers its effect to the weapon in question. The alchemical item takes full effect on the next creature struck by the weapon, but does not splash, spread, or otherwise affect additional targets. Any extra damage added is treated like bonus dice of damage, and is not doubled on a critical hit. The alchemical treatment causes no harm to the weapon treated, and wears off 1 minute after application if no blow is struck. At 6th level, a grenadier can use her alchemical weapon ability as a swift action. At 15th level, this ability becomes a free action. This ability replaces poison resistance.

[IejirIsk]

i would say... the bomb, just because it says that for the alchy, bombs are weapons... the items, however i would have to be a bit more leery on...

[Tirq]

Actually, my question is can I infuse the bomb into something? Like, for example, my Bomb into a Longsword?

I have been wondering about that for some time, but I can't seem to find whether a bomb is an alchemical liquid, powder, or a weapon itself.

[IejirIsk]

bombs are weapons for the alchy... there is a discovery for bomb onto arrow... maybe see if your dm will let you go with a bomb on sword... just make sure you can survive the splash...

[Nuku]

But it says it does not splash.

[Secane]

My Alchemist character is for PFS.

The big question I have is; are Alchemical liquids like alchemist’s fire and acid flasks considered weapons? After all they do use the splash weapons attack to determine how they hit targets...

So would it be possible to add one to another?

------------
On another note, since an Alchemist's bombs deal the minimal possible damage on splash. Does Alchemical Weapon (Su) increases the splash my 1 dice? aka 1 point of damage?

[Secane]

Does anyone have a better understanding of this?

[IejirIsk]

well... the more dice you get, the more (read 1) damage your bombs deal on splash... how it applies to other discoveries, i'm afraid i dont know a hard rule on... if nothing else go GM hunting, or try it, see what he says?

[Nuku]

' but does not splash, spread, or otherwise affect additional targets. '

What is this splash thing you speak of?

[unforgivn]

An alchemist's bombs aren't items, so they shouldn't work with Alchemical Weapon. The ability itself specifically calls out things like alchemist's fire and sneezing powder, so that's what you're going to be able to use. Things like acid flasks, holy water, or used haunt siphons should work just fine, though.

[trollbill]

Secane wrote:

My Alchemist character is for PFS.

The big question I have is; are Alchemical liquids like alchemist’s fire and acid flasks considered weapons? After all they do use the splash weapons attack to determine how they hit targets...

So would it be possible to add one to another?

------------
On another note, since an Alchemist's bombs deal the minimal possible damage on splash. Does Alchemical Weapon (Su) increases the splash my 1 dice? aka 1 point of damage?

There is no definative answer on this, which means in PFS you are going to get a lot of table variation. Since it looks kind of cheesy (whether it really is or not) I would expect the answer to be 'No' more than half the time.

My general recommendation for things like this, espescially when they aren't an intergrel part of you PFS character, is to simply avoid them in PFS as the headaches usually aren't worth it.

[Secane]

unforgivn wrote:

An alchemist's bombs aren't items, so they shouldn't work with Alchemical Weapon. The ability itself specifically calls out things like alchemist's fire and sneezing powder, so that's what you're going to be able to use. Things like acid flasks, holy water, or used haunt siphons should work just fine, though.

It is stated in the Bomb (Su) section for Alchemist that "Bombs are considered weapons and can be selected using feats such as Point-Blank

Shot and Weapon Focus."

Therefore I should be able to apply Alchemical Weapon (Su) to bombs.... holy cow... I just solved my own question... :)

EDIT!: Just read on Throw Splash Weapon in the CRB. "A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact" Alchemical items like Acid Flasks and alchemist’s fire are splashes! Therefore they are weapons!!!

The rules are all there!!! Just have to read up different areas! I feel stupid now... :P

trollbill wrote:

Secane wrote:

My Alchemist character is for PFS.

The big question I have is; are Alchemical liquids like alchemist’s fire and acid flasks considered weapons? After all they do use the splash weapons attack to determine how they hit targets...

So would it be possible to add one to another?

------------
On another note, since an Alchemist's bombs deal the minimal possible damage on splash. Does Alchemical Weapon (Su) increases the splash my 1 dice? aka 1 point of damage?

There is no definative answer on this, which means in PFS you are going to get a lot of table variation. Since it looks kind of cheesy (whether it really is or not) I would expect the answer to be 'No' more than half the time.

My general recommendation for things like this, espescially when they aren't an intergrel part of you PFS character, is to simply avoid them in PFS as the headaches usually aren't worth it.

Given that the Grenadier is from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide and that Alchemical Weapon (Su) can add quite a bit of damage to my Alchemist's bombs, it is not something I can easily overlook.

[trollbill]

Secane wrote:

Given that the Grenadier is from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide and that Alchemical Weapon (Su) can add quite a bit of damage to my Alchemist's bombs,...

I have a 10th level PFS Alchemist Grenadier that has done fine without ever using this particular trick. So I certainly don't consider it integral to my character. But if you do, then you will need to get a ruling up front each time you get a new DM.

Alchemist bombs are wonky because they are both weapons and supernatural abilities.

The rules say a flask of acid can be thrown as a splash weapon but it isn't actually listed as a weapon.

[Secane]

@trollbill

I a little confuse... if splash weapons are weapons, then why can't Alchemical Weapon (Su) be applied to them?

Are there any splash weapons that are actually listed as weapons?

[Bardess]

Are poisons alchemical items? Could a grenadier create an inhaled or splashing poison bomba?

[trollbill]

Secane wrote:

@trollbill

I a little confuse... if splash weapons are weapons, then why can't Alchemical Weapon (Su) be applied to them?

Are there any splash weapons that are actually listed as weapons?

Technically, no. Hence the table variation.

[9Reeds]

Unfortunately it is not possible to add alchemical weapons to bombs even though the rules say bombs are treated as weapons. The problem is this:
Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

As the bomb must be made and thrown as one standard action there is no time to interrupt the middle of the action with a move action or swift action to attach the alchemical weapon to it. The way around this is to take the explosive missile discovery. Use your move action to attach your alchemical weapon to an arrow then as a standard action create a bomb attach it to the same arrow, then fire the arrow for all the damage on one shot. You loose the attack being a touch attack but gain range and a considerable boost to the damage on your initial target.

[insaneogeddon]

Its pretty definitive they aren't alchemical items so no infusing bombs unless you cheat or don't read the rules.

You CAN however legitimately get:

the grenadier archetype

a level dip of ultimate combats gun mage

a conductive weapon

a hybridization funnel (to double alchemical equipment)

the explosive missile discovery

the contagnation mutagen

a goblin fire drum

and with your dragon pistol make a single shot and use up your standard, swift, move and free actions = weapon damage and feats +d6 alch fire + int, + d6 acid flask + int + bomb damage + int + Bomb damage + int with an extra + (level x 3) from drum and perhaps 1/2 level bonus from a race that gives bonus bomb damage (+1/2 level x3).

.... Alright you Primitive Screwheads, listen up! You see this? This... is my boomstick! It's got a walnut stock, cobalt blue steel, and a hair trigger. You got that. Do you feel lucky punk ??

[neferphras]

insaneogeddon wrote:

Its pretty definitive they aren't alchemical items so no infusing bombs unless you cheat or don't read the rules.

You CAN however legitimately get:

the grenadier archetype

a level dip of ultimate combats gun mage

a conductive weapon

a hybridization funnel (to double alchemical equipment)

the explosive missile discovery

the contagnation mutagen

a goblin fire drum

and with your dragon pistol make a single shot and use up your standard, swift, move and free actions = weapon damage and feats +d6 alch fire + int, + d6 acid flask + int + bomb damage + int + Bomb damage + int with an extra + (level x 3) from drum and perhaps 1/2 level bonus from a race that gives bonus bomb damage (+1/2 level x3).

.... Alright you Primitive Screwheads, listen up! You see this? This... is my boomstick! It's got a walnut stock, cobalt blue steel, and a hair trigger. You got that. Do you feel lucky punk ??

Not sure that math works unless you have a very generous GM.

'All alchemists gain the Throw Anything feat as a bonus feat at 1st level. An alchemist adds his Intelligence modifier to damage done with splash weapons, including the splash damage if any. This bonus damage is already included in the bomb class feature.'

If you use this ability then the item infused, gun or arrow, is no longer a splash weapon. Thus you dont add your int bonus. at least thats how ever PFS gm i have ever run with has ruled it. Yet another reason i have never used this ability.

also conductive weapon is a negative gain. So you spend 2 bombs to add to your gun or arrow, which is fine, but you only add the damage once. Still cool, but not as cool.

conductive weapon is able to channel the energy of a spell-like or supernatural ability that relies on a melee or ranged touch attack to hit its target (such as from a cleric's domain granted power, sorcerer's bloodline power, oracle's mystery revelation, or wizard's arcane school power). When the wielder makes a successful attack of the appropriate type, he may choose to expend two uses of his magical ability to channel it through the weapon to the struck opponent, which suffers the effects of both the weapon attack and the special ability. (If the wielder has unlimited uses of a special ability, she may channel through the weapon every round.) For example, a paladin who strikes an undead opponent with her conductive greatsword can expend two uses of her lay on hands ability (a supernatural melee touch attack) to deal both greatsword damage and damage from one use of lay on hands. This weapon special ability can only be used once per round, and only works with magical abilities of the same type as the weapon (melee or ranged).

the example tells the tale

so it would be
weapon damage+feats +1d6 alchemist fire+1d6 acid damage, +bomb damage (but 2 bombs used). Not bad, if you hit, but I a bow user with my alchemist, so not worth the miss chance at that damage output. Yet another reason why they need to allow the trick arrows to level the playing field.

[Relixander]

insaneogeddon wrote:

Its pretty definitive they aren't alchemical items so no infusing bombs unless you cheat or don't read the rules.

You CAN however legitimately get:

the grenadier archetype

a level dip of ultimate combats gun mage

a conductive weapon

a hybridization funnel (to double alchemical equipment)

the explosive missile discovery

the contagnation mutagen

a goblin fire drum

and with your dragon pistol make a single shot and use up your standard, swift, move and free actions = weapon damage and feats +d6 alch fire + int, + d6 acid flask + int + bomb damage + int + Bomb damage + int with an extra + (level x 3) from drum and perhaps 1/2 level bonus from a race that gives bonus bomb damage (+1/2 level x3).

.... Alright you Primitive Screwheads, listen up! You see this? This... is my boomstick! It's got a walnut stock, cobalt blue steel, and a hair trigger. You got that. Do you feel lucky punk ??

I don't think you can stack int bonuses like that.

[N. Jolly]

9Reeds wrote:

Unfortunately it is not possible to add alchemical weapons to bombs even though the rules say bombs are treated as weapons. The problem is this:

Drawing the components of, creating, and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity.

As the bomb must be made and thrown as one standard action there is no time to interrupt the middle of the action with a move action or swift action to attach the alchemical weapon to it. The way around this is to take the explosive missile discovery. Use your move action to attach your alchemical weapon to an arrow then as a standard action create a bomb attach it to the same arrow, then fire the arrow for all the damage on one shot. You loose the attack being a touch attack but gain range and a considerable boost to the damage on your initial target.

So does this change with fast bombs then? Honestly I think if you're willing to use both the move/swift action and the standard to make the bomb, there's nothing wrong with letting them mesh. It's just a reflavoring of how bombs are created. Until you get into Hybridization hijinxs, you're not doing too much, although at my table I'd rule that you only got intelligence bonus once to damage, since it's still a single splash weapon.

And Insaneogeddon, try adding the explosive missile discovery to a spread shot firearm. That's an entire cone getting a direct hit as well as splash damage. That's my boomstick.

[insaneogeddon]

Under your assumptions you still get bomb damage +1/2 level from race 2x (conductive and explosive missile), weapon damage, 2x your flasks hybridised together, and alch fire/bomb/bomb = 3x 10 (from use of the fire drum at 10th level.

As for int not stacking, and int not being added if you channel through another medium I disagree as that would have severe ramifications elsewhere.

If I channel through my holy sword do I not get my chr bonus to the DC? If I attack multiple times do I only get str damage 1x. etc etc etc etc

No there is nothing in the rules to indicate int only once apart from needless reactionary assumption.

Like its over powered to use so many bomb uses and actions for one alpha strike. pfft to those DMs that don't allow it and yet allow barbarians to pounce with weapons or on horseback or allow every barbarian to be superstitious and beast totem without enforcing any rp need to be superstitious or a beast totem.

[Slyph]

Question: From the rules under Grenadier, it says you can infuse a weapon or ammunition with a single harmful liquid or powder. my interpretation is that you could not infuse a liquid catalyst with it ahead of time since it is not a weapon or ammunition until it becomes a bomb, and its a standard to make and throw or a full round (with fast bomb) which means there would not be time to use the move action required.Is there a way to infuse a bomb with an acid flask for example. Also it appears that the item infusing is no longer able to splash meaning that I assume no adding Int a second time.