Goblin Squad Member
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I read the last three blogs with great interest. It seems to me the system(s) of flags and the scores based upon the two alignment axes are a solid foundation for meaningful player interaction and the goal of pvp w/o frequent griefing. I realize the devs and many in these forums have already invested some time and thought to the mechanic, but why a separate reputation score in addition to alignment and flagging? The Rep system would be ripe for abuse and metagaming in ways that have already been discussed. It also adds to the complexity of an already complex game. What about adding an 'Oathbreaker' long term flag for not honoring contracts? This along with the Betrayer and Murderer flags which I think are being considered but not yet fleshed out. Doing away with Rep would also negate the idea (which I believe to be nonsensical) that a Lawful Evil settlement cannot build certain prestigious and useful structures. I don't see why the default character setting should be moving towards lawful; PCs could choose to slowly raise their scores along the law/chaos axis by logging out at lawful or chaotic inns/hideouts/forts/settlements with which they have good standing (no criminal, betrayer, etc., flags). At least tie the proposed Rep gain to such a mechanic. A PC could start at Neutral and would immediately have a reason to interact in order to shift her/his alignment to whatever desired. This, I believe, would augment the player-driven storyline from the get-go. Thanks for reading my post this far.
An Oathbreaker flag feels like replacing a "scale of 1-10" with a "scale of weighs more or weighs less". Which it basically is. So what I mean is that it feels less flexible than the Reputation system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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An Oathbreaker flag feels like replacing a "scale of 1-10" with a "scale of weighs more or weighs less". Which it basically is. So what I mean is that it feels less flexible than the Reputation system.
I believe an Oathbreaker flag would only apply when a duly entered into agreement is violated; not the myriad of circumstances when one loses Rep score.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Here's the quick summary of the info on Reputation in the blogs:
First, a Bit of Math
Reputation and both alignment axes (law vs. chaos and good vs. Evil) break down to numerical scales, running from -7,500 to 7,500*. The exact numbers cited here will likely change, but this will give you some of where we are going. The scales break down thusly:
-7,500 to 2,501 -2,500 to 2,500 2,501 to 7,500
Reputation Poor Average Good
Law vs. Chaos Chaotic Neutral Lawful
Good vs. Evil Evil Neutral GoodReputation is entirely a PvP-based metric, and it only changes through interaction with other players. Reputation goes down through PvP against people who aren't flagged for it (through flags like Attacker, Criminal, or the PvP flags below described below). It can also be lowered by people who lower their own reputation to try and lower yours, if theirs is higher to begin with, so be careful who you treat badly. Reputation goes up by an accelerating rate each day players don't lose reputation for their actions, from gifts from other players, and through playing their role in the PvP flags described below.
To give you an idea of how much these things will cost or grant in terms of reputation, killing a player with Reputation 0 who has no flags will cost about 500 Reputation, while killing an average low-reputation player (-5,000 reputation) will cost about 16 reputation and killing an average high-reputation player (5,000 reputation) will cost about 2,400. Note that killing Criminals, Attackers, people in wars, people with bounties, etc., all reduce or eliminate these reputation hits. So a high-reputation character who kills a low-reputation character without any flags is not going to suffer much for it, but if he does it repeatedly, the reputation hits will accumulate.
[...]
A player's reputation is clearly visible to others, while alignment is harder to determine at a glance. All three have limited direct effect on the player, but large effect on that player's social life: settlements gain benefits from keeping a high alignment and reputation requirement for membership
[...]
Characters with low reputations may also find they're not wanted in certain places. Settlements can set a minimum reputation to enter the city; players who don't meet the requirement are warned, and become trespassers if they continue to enter. Settlements may also be selective about permitting players with low reputations to join, since maintaining a high minimum settlement reputation is key to building several prestigious and useful structures.
[...]
I Don't Give A Damn 'Bout My Bad Reputation
There are other mechanics in Pathfinder Online that describe the relationship between characters. One of those is the reputation system. A "reputation economy" is a method of giving weight to people's actions. Earning a good reputation is valuable, and having a bad reputation can close a lot of doors. eBay's buyer and seller ratings are an example of a reputation economy.
Your character will have a reputation as well. As your character undertakes various actions for others, those others will have the opportunity to provide feedback on the results, and you will have the opportunity to do the same in reverse.
Reputation is a social construct, and your reputation will flow through your social contacts. If nobody I know knows you, I will not have access to any of your reputation information. If some of my social connections know you, I will know what they know about your reputation. Treat my friends well or you may find it hard to do business with me.
We've also considered the idea that one could buy and sell reputation information about other characters. This would allow a character's reputation to cross from one social sphere to another. Your reputation may, in fact, precede you.
Reputation extends to social organizations as well. Chartered companies, settlements and player nations also have reputations, and those reputations are affected by the actions of their components, be they social organizations or individual characters. So what you do reflects not only on yourself, but on your associates.
[...]
Reputation
That the person you're taking a contract from is known to be someone who is safe to do business with raises a high bar for folks who want to engage in shenanigans. Your reputation will have a big effect on the price paid for hiring services—the worse your rep—or the absence of a rep—the higher the price people will demand for taking the risk of dealing with you. And without a decent rep, many people won't deal with you at all.
So
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- Reputation is purely PvP
- Allows players to directly rate
- Works in conjunction with other axis for a total marker
- Is more clearly visible than alignment
- Settlements can tailor create reputation level requirements for access
- Reputation in conjunction with the other x2 axis have cumulative effect on the access of a settlement to higher functioning buildings
- Reputation economy possibile via other player ratings
- Extends to CC and settlement total reputations of members aggregate or sum?
Looking at all the info, it seems reputation has a strong angle, a more player-directed effect on your social rating?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Reputation allows the devs to create a system in which it is easy and obvious to all involved to claculate the loss/gain of the score depending on the actions.
If you have very high reputation and someone p*sses you off like hell and you see that his reputation is very low, then you can easily attack him because you know that you will loose nearly no reputation yourself for being an attacker.
This in turn encourages a certain desired behavior because reputation is permanent while flags are not.
Alignment is something different as it ties into some classes powers and into the relationships between you and the settlements you usually frequent. It is not tied into reputation all that much.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I prefer having a Reputation system, rather than an artificial and limiting Alignment system. Reputation represents the way I actually play my character, and so it is a better representation. Alignment is what the system will try to force my character to be. I will have to limit what I might like to do, in order to maintain the alignment I want to keep... This is why I refer to it as being artificial. Alignment comes at the expense of role playing, it does not enhance it.
Doing away with Rep would also negate the idea (which I believe to be nonsensical) that a Lawful Evil settlement cannot build certain prestigious and useful structures.
This sentiment conflicts with the concept of Reputation as an independent 3rd axis.
As an independent 3rd axis, a LE settlement can have either high OR low Reputation.If LE were hard-associated with Low Rep, Reputation would no longer be an independent axis. But it is.
Previously most of the known ways to be Chaotic Evil would have implied Low Reputation,
but the Bandit PVP flag and Stand and Deliver mechanic changed that, so you can extort money, and do C/E things, while keeping a high Rep.
The entire Stand and Deliver mechanic is structured around the Reputation system. It isn't going anywhere.
If worrying about Reputation is too much worry for you, then don't. Just play how you like.
Your character will be considered of whatever Alignment and Reputation their actions dictate.
Reputation is just another measurement of character actions, just like Alignment is.
There is a place in the game for all Alignments and Reputation.
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If worrying about Reputation is too much worry for you, then don't. Just play how you like.
Your character will be considered of whatever Alignment and Reputation their actions dictate.
Reputation is just another measurement of character actions, just like Alignment is.
There is a place in the game for all Alignments and Reputation.
Gotta agree with this. If your chosen alignment is hampering your play style,then maybe you picked the wrong alignment. If your role is dependent on a certain alignment, and your having trouble maintaining that alignment, then perhaps you should rethink your chosen role?
I will play my character the way I've always played my character and let the alignment chips fall where they may :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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I will play my character the way I've always played my character and let the alignment chips fall where they may :D
I couldn't agree more. I know that many here will "game" the system to achieve their goals as quickly as they can but I know that I myself will also play my character the way I've always played a character and we'll see what happens. I think that could be one thing I'm most looking forward to in this game since these last few blogs have been published.
Every other game that I've played, whether there was PvP or not I've always tried to just live my life and do what I want to do while trying not to interfere too much with other people's enjoyment. I think that the reputation system combined with the law/chaos & good/evil axis are an excellent way to actually measure those actions in game with positive & negative results for the individual.
Of course, if those actions affect your company, settlement or kingdom than great. After all, an individual player's actions in any other game will have a positive or negative impact upon their guild, corporation or group it just won't be as apparent as it will be in PFO. If you doubt me, think back to the last time some idiot gave your guild, corporation or group a bad name that the leaders had to spend time talking with others about instead of playing and enjoying the game. (If you haven't had the experience, congratulations but I would be inclined to bet that you are in the minority.) :)
Just my two cents
Xennkari
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Goblin Squad Member
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If worrying about Reputation is too much worry for you, then don't. Just play how you like.
Your character will be considered of whatever Alignment and Reputation their actions dictate.
Reputation is just another measurement of character actions, just like Alignment is.
There is a place in the game for all Alignments and Reputation.Gotta agree with this. If your chosen alignment is hampering your play style,then maybe you picked the wrong alignment. If your role is dependent on a certain alignment, and your having trouble maintaining that alignment, then perhaps you should rethink your chosen role?
I will play my character the way I've always played my character and let the alignment chips fall where they may :D
I went for a job interview once, where a big factor was you as an individual and your own moral system: There was a test in fact for it (one of those sort of biometric/psychological tests??). I did not get the job and often wondered if that measure would have successfully recorded my sense of ethics and the like (especially as I was not too sure myself and never thought a standardised test could tell me) and believe after a number of years of reflection that job would have not suited me in any way on that score (high or low)!!
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Reputation system is usefull (I would argue SIGNIFCANTLY MORE usefull) then PFO's Alignment system for the purposes of Anti-Griefing which is part of what GW wants to accomplish with said systems.
Reputation measures PLAYER behavior not character behavior.
With the Alignment system, Johnny could be CE because he is a griefing jerk OR he could be CE because he likes to play antagonist CHARACTERS but is an EXTREMELY RESPECTFULL Player towards other Players in his OWN behavior (example: never initiaties PvP with another player unless he checks with them first to see if they are interested). Reputation is a way to differentiate those two type of characters that would appear indentical otherwise.
I would actualy prefer to see the Alignment system be purely player choice and reputation used as a measurement of thier actions, but that's my own personal preference. YMMV.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Reputation is a pretty decent system for attempting to distinguish between evil that benefits the game, and harms it. IE a bandit who demands a ransom for stealing, is roleplaying a pretty decent bandit. A ganker who mindlessly kills anyone he thinks he can take for the lulz, falls on a much different plain.
An Assasain who kills the designated target, also falls into the categories of desirable evil.
The attempt anyway is to distinguish meaningful strategic kills and robberies from mindless I killed him because I could.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Let the community police itself.What is it called when you keep trying the same thing over and over, but expect different results?
Insanity, by definition.
That said, I have questions and reservations about the reputation + alignment system myself. Specifically, I agree with the OP that it creates the opportunity (or necessity, maybe) to metagame or otherwise do things to artificially influence these statistics in order to achieve a desired result, i.e. kill 1,000 zombies so you can enter your friend's LG settlement, or better yet: kill 1,000 zombies so you can raise your chaos/evil rating after defending/avenging your friend in a situation where flags didn't work/time ran out/whatever.
Let the community police itself.What is it called when you keep trying the same thing over and over, but expect different results?Insanity, by definition.
That said, I have questions and reservations about the reputation + alignment system myself. Specifically, I agree with the OP that it creates the opportunity (or necessity, maybe) to metagame or otherwise do things to artificially influence these statistics in order to achieve a desired result, i.e. kill 1,000 zombies so you can enter your friend's LG settlement, or better yet: kill 1,000 zombies so you can raise your chaos/evil rating after defending/avenging your friend in a situation where flags didn't work/time ran out/whatever.
Well luckily the alignment system won't require you to kill 1000 of anything unless you went on a month long PK rampage. At most, if you mistakenly kill a high rep good character, and your alignment was close to an edge, it would kick you past that edge into the next alignment. This would require you to perform some acts to get yourself back to your desired alignment, but it won't be difficult, nor take that long provided you didn't repeat the action over and over.
I think that's the problem with some people who don't like the alignment system, they see themselves repeatedly performing actions that'll be detrimental to their alignment and don't want to pay the price. Not saying that everyone who doesn't like the alignment system is going to be a PKer.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Let the community police itself.What is it called when you keep trying the same thing over and over, but expect different results?Insanity, by definition.
That said, I have questions and reservations about the reputation + alignment system myself. Specifically, I agree with the OP that it creates the opportunity (or necessity, maybe) to metagame or otherwise do things to artificially influence these statistics in order to achieve a desired result, i.e. kill 1,000 zombies so you can enter your friend's LG settlement, or better yet: kill 1,000 zombies so you can raise your chaos/evil rating after defending/avenging your friend in a situation where flags didn't work/time ran out/whatever.
Yeah I'm worried an effective CC/Settlement will end up requiring a system of alts and what amount to reputation swaps between allied players. A LG community (I mean the players) might maintain a cadre of CE characters to log on to do their dirty work. Anything that can be given to another player, in this case rep, becomes a sort of in-game currency, yes?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Look at Nihimon being snarky! :)
What do you call it when you make rules that not only don't combat the problem you're going after, but also adversly impacts everyone else by making things unnecessarily difficult? Red tape?
The question is, does having these mechanics bring net benefit to the game overall?
Too early to tell, granted, but 'on paper' it seems not.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that's the problem with some people who don't like the alignment system, they see themselves repeatedly performing actions that'll be detrimental to their alignment and don't want to pay the price. Not saying that everyone who doesn't like the alignment system is going to be a PKer.
When the price is you are unable to RP your character concept in an online RPG, I think that goes too far. The current system only rewards a certain playstyle, and a certain alignment. Everyone else has to work harder and longer, when they potentialy pay the same sub every month, without any kind of compensory benefit for having to do so.
I think all the cries at the onset of "OH MY we need to stop all the griefy griefers that grief us!!" has taken things too far, and the pendulum needs to swing back a bit towards playability.
Maybe if I ask for anarchy, we'll end up in the middle.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think all the cries at the onset of "OH MY we need to stop all the griefy griefers that grief us!!" has taken things too far, and the pendulum needs to swing back a bit towards playability.
Maybe if I ask for anarchy, we'll end up in the middle.
If your actual position is a moderate compromise, why not simply spell out what that compromise would look like instead of asserting a polar opposite and fictional position?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that's the problem with some people who don't like the alignment system, they see themselves repeatedly performing actions that'll be detrimental to their alignment and don't want to pay the price. Not saying that everyone who doesn't like the alignment system is going to be a PKer.When the price is you are unable to RP your character concept in an online RPG, I think that goes too far. The current system only rewards a certain playstyle, and a certain alignment. Everyone else has to work harder and longer, when they potentialy pay the same sub every month, without any kind of compensory benefit for having to do so.
I think all the cries at the onset of "OH MY we need to stop all the griefy griefers that grief us!!" has taken things too far, and the pendulum needs to swing back a bit towards playability.
Maybe if I ask for anarchy, we'll end up in the middle.
As far as I can conceptualise it:
1. The devs have mentioned they are erring on the side of caution with the current leaning of these: Remember the numbers will expand or contract how many actions in a given time influence your alignment from a few minutes, a few hours, half a day, a day or two, half a week... and how many actions, what types of actions (ie weighted):
THIS: Is all data that will be refined I imagine in EE? Let your actions speak then.
2. I disagree: "The current system only rewards a certain playstyle, and a certain alignment." - This is your formulation of what is meaningful to you. The challenge of being evil/chaotic, slicing up my foes into dog -meat and outwitting my enemies when the odds are stacked against me etc. Likewise I might be a mole in an Evil settlement... . Alternatively I might be very selective in who I waylay and play within the alignment of the game. All these are potentially meaningful and very fun to me, without necessarily worrying about settlement upgrades and the high-level power struggles between kingdoms.
3. What I do want to see is the alignments giving good indication of certain players playstyles and therefore knowing if there is a mutual way to interact or not with them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't like the idea of walking around with my alignment and rep floating over my head. How could chars possibly know these things w/o magic or actually witnessing all of my actions? I like the flag system as a way to limit griefing. But anyone can automatically see your playstyle? And not using a spell or training high sense motive?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If your actual position is a moderate compromise, why not simply spell out what that compromise would look like instead of asserting a polar opposite and fictional position?...
I think all the cries at the onset of "OH MY we need to stop all the griefy griefers that grief us!!" has taken things too far, and the pendulum needs to swing back a bit towards playability.
Maybe if I ask for anarchy, we'll end up in the middle.
Damn Being, can a brother get a table dance? Are you a Poly Sci major? Law school?
Your alignment doesn't float over your head, that's a private thing that some people might be able to determine through magic.
Reputation, however, is very obviously known to all--it's your Reputation. Reputation is, by definition, "stuff everyone knows about you". :P
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Goblin Squad Member
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2. I disagree: "The current system only rewards a certain playstyle, and a certain alignment." - This is your formulation of what is meaningful to you. The challenge of being evil/chaotic, slicing up my foes into dog -meat and outwitting my enemies when the odds are stacked against me etc. Likewise I might be a mole in an Evil settlement... . Alternatively I might be very selective in who I waylay and play within the alignment of the game. All these are potentially meaningful and very fun to me, without necessarily worrying about settlement upgrades and the high-level power struggles between kingdoms.
I'm not worried about in game RP challenges for playing certain alignments. Hell, that's half the fun. My concern is when they are backed up or flat out discouraged mechanicly. Specificly in regards to access to training and things like that. It goes without saying, but you can't overcome that stuff with RP.
So, I guess a system to keep the players from gaming the system that keeps people from gaming the system has already been ruled out?
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Goblin Squad Member
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2. I disagree: "The current system only rewards a certain playstyle, and a certain alignment." - This is your formulation of what is meaningful to you. The challenge of being evil/chaotic, slicing up my foes into dog -meat and outwitting my enemies when the odds are stacked against me etc. Likewise I might be a mole in an Evil settlement... . Alternatively I might be very selective in who I waylay and play within the alignment of the game. All these are potentially meaningful and very fun to me, without necessarily worrying about settlement upgrades and the high-level power struggles between kingdoms.I'm not worried about in game RP challenges for playing certain alignments. Hell, that's half the fun. My concern is when they are backed up or flat out discouraged mechanicly. Specificly in regards to access to training and things like that. It goes without saying, but you can't overcome that stuff with RP.
Ah, I see what you are saying: Your "character progression" (ie rp/flavor/backstory) is delimited because it is tied to your "player progression" (game mechanics ie settlements evil/chaotic/low rep).
Will that be resolved if eg you are chaotic evil but high reputation? I'm wondering if you you have a high rep, you can still access some settlements to do use their training for a fee? But even that might cost more? Better crack the whip on those zombies to work the mines harder! ;)
I don't like the idea of walking around with my alignment and rep floating over my head. How could chars possibly know these things w/o magic or actually witnessing all of my actions? I like the flag system as a way to limit griefing. But anyone can automatically see your playstyle? And not using a spell or training high sense motive?
The flag system does identifying what flat you have. But I think "divine alignment" and a "reputation economy" might both be part of the system of identification (and even disguise)? Albeit if I conduct a trade with another player or contract, I would like to know such things (eg helping a potential ally's settlement vs stepper prices/insurance/escrew with a more dodgy customer) or otherwise ascertain a player and who they might associate with.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...Damn Being, can a brother get a table dance? Are you a Poly Sci major? Law school?
heh.
Just a guy who's been around the block before. I build smallish databases and perform process analysis for a rather large outfit for my day job.
Been in gaming since, oh, sometime after the invention of dice. Currently writing a sci-fi novel: almost ready for the editor.
Krow and Gobbocast are supposedly going to to publish an interview on Feb 25th if it turns out they were able to edit out enough of the drivel I continuously spout. I go into some depth.
Drop on by: I have no idea whether it will be any good but I did speak my mind pretty much ad hoc and might be entertaining.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your alignment doesn't float over your head, that's a private thing that some people might be able to determine through magic.
Reputation, however, is very obviously known to all--it's your Reputation. Reputation is, by definition, "stuff everyone knows about you". :P
Maybe in your hometown, but not in the next city or REGIONWIDE. Real reputation should be what people are saying about your char on guild or general chat-not a rundown they get automatically on the other side of the River Kingdoms.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Because I don't know necessarily what that compromise should look like, only I don't like where it is now. ...
I think the model proposed coupled with the evolved reputation counter is already a synthetic between a static or blind alignment system and no alignment system at all.
By 'evolved' reputation counter I'm referencing the first time I saw mention of a 'reputation' system was in connection with trade and economics: if you were dealing with a low rep merchant it would be significant.
So if I were to infer a real position for you that you don't already have an image of it sounds like you want to mderate the alignment system to be even more subtle than it already is, so you would be able to enter a LE city as a CG character and nobody would be the wiser?
An exceptionally low or high Reputation means you're either infamous or famous, and your Reputation will precede you. A very average Reputation will not make people treat you exceptionally well or poorly because they will not know much about you. Especially given this is a game with plenty of techniques to communicate to people far away, I find Reputation to be a fairly realistic mechanic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If people say, 'Sepherum stole my flower cart' in chat or messaging and this type of behaviour keeps coming up-that's real reputation. Don't see why peeps should also get an automatic sense motive/knowledge local success against me. Oh, and that's just a theoretical example. I'm interested in playing LE and CG but I've never been a griefer and never will.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Because I don't know necessarily what that compromise should look like, only I don't like where it is now. ...I think the model proposed coupled with the evolved reputation counter is already a synthetic between a static or blind alignment system and no alignment system at all.
By 'evolved' reputation counter I'm referencing the first time I saw mention of a 'reputation' system was in connection with trade and economics: if you were dealing with a low rep merchant it would be significant.
So if I were to infer a real position for you that you don't already have an image of it sounds like you want to mderate the alignment system to be even more subtle than it already is, so you would be able to enter a LE city as a CG character and nobody would be the wiser?
No, my real position is:
In the spirit of stopping griefing before it occurs, and heavily penalizing those that do so, the mechanics have crossed over into evil acts that may be perpetrated by non-griefers simply playing their evil characters. The mechanics can not distinguish between the two.This, in turn affects ease of play and mechanical advancement.
I believe this is a bad idea, and goes too far.
There has to be ways to subtly discourage griefing without having core mechanics punish those who want to play characters of a chaotic or evil bent.
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Goblin Squad Member
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An exceptionally low or high Reputation means you're either infamous or famous, and your Reputation will precede you. A very average Reputation will not make people treat you exceptionally well or poorly because they will not know much about you. Especially given this is a game with plenty of techniques to communicate to people far away, I find Reputation to be a fairly realistic mechanic.
Not very realistic. I could be a convicted felon (of something heinous), and have a better than average chance of walking into any public place in town and not be recognized. And that's with today's media.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Because I don't know necessarily what that compromise should look like, only I don't like where it is now. ...I think the model proposed coupled with the evolved reputation counter is already a synthetic between a static or blind alignment system and no alignment system at all.
By 'evolved' reputation counter I'm referencing the first time I saw mention of a 'reputation' system was in connection with trade and economics: if you were dealing with a low rep merchant it would be significant.
So if I were to infer a real position for you that you don't already have an image of it sounds like you want to mderate the alignment system to be even more subtle than it already is, so you would be able to enter a LE city as a CG character and nobody would be the wiser?
No, my real position is:
In the spirit of stopping griefing before it occurs, and heavily penalizing those that do so, the mechanics have crossed over into evil acts that may be perpetrated by non-griefers simply playing their evil characters. The mechanics can not distinguish between the two.
This, in turn affects ease of play and mechanical advancement.I believe this is a bad idea, and goes too far.
There has to be ways to subtly discourage griefing without having core mechanics punish those who want to play characters of a chaotic or evil bent.
I believe Kryz has summed up my point better than I have.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I believe Kryz has summed up my point better than I have.Because I don't know necessarily what that compromise should look like, only I don't like where it is now. ...I think the model proposed coupled with the evolved reputation counter is already a synthetic between a static or blind alignment system and no alignment system at all.
By 'evolved' reputation counter I'm referencing the first time I saw mention of a 'reputation' system was in connection with trade and economics: if you were dealing with a low rep merchant it would be significant.
So if I were to infer a real position for you that you don't already have an image of it sounds like you want to mderate the alignment system to be even more subtle than it already is, so you would be able to enter a LE city as a CG character and nobody would be the wiser?
No, my real position is:
In the spirit of stopping griefing before it occurs, and heavily penalizing those that do so, the mechanics have crossed over into evil acts that may be perpetrated by non-griefers simply playing their evil characters. The mechanics can not distinguish between the two.
This, in turn affects ease of play and mechanical advancement.I believe this is a bad idea, and goes too far.
There has to be ways to subtly discourage griefing without having core mechanics punish those who want to play characters of a chaotic or evil bent.
Agree, Kryz does sum up the alignment tension between the two well. But it comes back to a matter of degree and the interplay between your ACTIONS and your INTENTIONS?
So, heavy-penalties we know are low in all 3 axis. Some penalties are then gradated up from that. Some flexibility is involved in non-LG settlements however eg cosmopolitan trade? And to what degree will the better enhancements be?
But back to reputation, I wonder if this axis will have the most bearing on RP-evil/chaotic players and what THEIR options will be (ie positive reflection)?
An exceptionally low or high Reputation means you're either infamous or famous, and your Reputation will precede you. A very average Reputation will not make people treat you exceptionally well or poorly because they will not know much about you. Especially given this is a game with plenty of techniques to communicate to people far away, I find Reputation to be a fairly realistic mechanic.Not very realistic. I could be a convicted felon (of something heinous), and have a better than average chance of walking into any public place in town and not be recognized. And that's with today's media.
To be fair, we live in a very big world. The citizens of the River Kingdoms don't. No internet, no planes. Teleporting is limited to powerful mages or rich people, so it doesn't really count.
The internet is actually more of a hindrance, since it offers a whole lot of areas to look at rather than your own. A town in the River Kingdoms is not a town in the real world. The real world, again, is big, and has a whole lot of people. The River Kingdoms are still a pretty medieval setting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Look at Nihimon being snarky! :)
Guilty. Apologies.
I will say that "Let the community police itself" has been tried, repeatedly, and has failed every time.
The ideas that Ryan intends to try haven't really been tried before. Your assertion that they will fail is unproven, to say the least. While it's definitely worthwhile to point out problems you see with it, it's unrealistic to expect that Ryan will change his mind just because you think he's wrong. And recommending that he do the same thing that has already failed in multiple other games seems crazy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Look at Nihimon being snarky! :)Guilty. Apologies.
I will say that "Let the community police itself" has been tried, repeatedly, and has failed every time.
The ideas that Ryan intends to try haven't really been tried before. Your assertion that they will fail is unproven, to say the least. While it's definitely worthwhile to point out problems you see with it, it's unrealistic to expect that Ryan will change his mind just because you think he's wrong. And recommending that he do the same thing that has already failed in multiple other games seems crazy.
Right. I'm not saying it will fail. I'm saying it will work too well.
I'm saying it will alienate folks that want to play an evil or chaotic character because it mechanicly hampers them unfairly, all in the name of catching griefers. Evil characters played by folks is intended to be the content. You don't see a problem here?And I do, to a degree, expect Ryan to be somewhat swayable, or the whole idea of crowdforging is bunk.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Look at Nihimon being snarky! :)Guilty. Apologies.
I will say that "Let the community police itself" has been tried, repeatedly, and has failed every time.
The ideas that Ryan intends to try haven't really been tried before. Your assertion that they will fail is unproven, to say the least. While it's definitely worthwhile to point out problems you see with it, it's unrealistic to expect that Ryan will change his mind just because you think he's wrong. And recommending that he do the same thing that has already failed in multiple other games seems crazy.
Right. I'm not saying it will fail. I'm saying it will work too well.
I'm saying it will alienate folks that want to play an evil or chaotic character because it mechanicly hampers them unfairly, all in the name of catching griefers. Evil characters played by folks is intended to be the content. You don't see a problem here?
And I do, to a degree, expect Ryan to be somewhat swayable, or the whole idea of crowdforging is bunk.
Well spoken. Unfortunately the devs seem confident that peeps will be the foils/content for others simply out of a desire to play 'evil' whether their characters/settlements are disadvantaged or not. I'd like to note that the 'Playing Evil with Depth' topic shows that plenty of players want to roleplay villains and not engage in griefing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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An exceptionally low or high Reputation means you're either infamous or famous, and your Reputation will precede you. A very average Reputation will not make people treat you exceptionally well or poorly because they will not know much about you. Especially given this is a game with plenty of techniques to communicate to people far away, I find Reputation to be a fairly realistic mechanic.
I think you're mistaken. A high reputation means you're either famous or infamous and low reputation means your a RPK or a griefer.