A couple of threads have been grabbing my attention lately and I am strongly considering running a game based on it.
I figure the game would start at about level 5 and go from there. Some of book #1 could be used (with increased CR, obviously) and quickly hit book #2.
Kicker would be starting with seven (probably arcane) casters who are not optimised for wilderness adventure.
After re-reading a lot of Kingmaker I think maybe it could work. The two questions I can't resolve are
(A) what's the interest level?
(B) Should it use the mythic ruleset?
Any thoughts?
I really like the idea, and I would like to see the mythic rules integrated. How in-depth of a game might this be? I like to write my posts like part of a novel and have almost absurdly high expectations. (Here is an example of my type of game, from my Kingmaker game.)
Would this be an evil game, a good game, somewhere in between? Would each take a particular sin/virtue?
For that matter, you say PC 'Runelords'. I'm a bit uncertain how such individuals would even be in Brevoy/the River Kingdoms. Would you elucidate please?
I'm interested, just not certain about things. The option of adding Mythic in later appeals.
DM Barcas: Great game man :)
I figure the core is to involve Lissala in the character's backstory. Couple of ways to do so, which I'm still puzzling over.
Easiest way seems to be to have the characters be members of a cult of Lissala run by a more powerful wizard, and that wizard acquires the charter and funds the mission.
A lot of the original Runelord structure comes from Lissala's holy text and rituals.
Thinking of changing the rules to allow clerics of Lissala, and possibly removing the seperatist domain penalty because one of them would really make things easier.
Lawful, definitely. Good/neutral/evil... I was going to let the players decide.
Hmm. A cult of Lissala may be a little too constraining, as she appears to be a lawful evil (deceased) deity. Perhaps that can be a default, with other options as possibilities - for instance, an Azlant-obsessed researcher who wants to see the empire restored with a balance between sin and virtue. For instance.
Lissala link if you need to look her up like me.
Another idea: an Asmodean (or just Chelaxian) who is on board with the ideas but wants to put a Hell twist on it.
JJ has repeatedly stated that Lissala is not deceased. She's just Missing.
To be honest, that could make for a rather interesting backstory on one of the characters if he/she has the idea that gathering/converting enough Lissala Worshipers together to form a new Lissalan Theocracy might actually call her back from wherever she has disappeared to, & that would certainly qualify as a mythic undertaking.
On the downside, that so totally goes way left/outfield from Kingmaker as written. Not saying that is a bad thing, just saying that piles even more work onto the GM aside from what he has already seemingly shouldered.
edit: And now I'm thinking about that as a character concept. Either go genuine Mystic Theurge, or possibly if the GM allowed it a re-skinned Razmiran Priest Sorcerer Archetype with something like the Martyred Bloodline from Blood of Angels.
Dammit!
Irnok - you have it. Guess my sneaky idea wasn't so sneaky ;) It seems like a mythic undertaking. While Lissala is missing she does have a Herald still existent to help kick things off. It's also suggested that she was still granting some divine magic even after 'leaving'.
I think it is possible to use that as a basis for kingmaker. A lot of work goes into doing it via Brevoy so the whole thing doesn't fall in a heap.
Technically doesn't need to be all casters, but if you've got seven runelords and Gork the half-orc barbarian I think Gork is going to feel out of place.
DM Barcas - my plan resolved around "for some reason you joined a cult of Lissala and made certain promises in exchange for power. Whether you took it seriously or not she did". And then have other reasons to join the cult (they have the best spellbooks, for example. Who cares if you have to say some words to a dead god to get them.)
That said a cleric of any other god would be poison in this concept. Druid too I think.
Love this idea. Would you allow a Necromancer wizard?
DH: Sure. It is one of the seven schools!
*Insert evil laugh here*
I'll have a character built as soon as possible.
Been itching to get into a Kingmaker and one with a twist like this is too cool. Tossing around an idea of a Shadowcaster...maybe some crossclassing rogue to go Shadowdancer later but...we'll see.
Thought of any build specs?
My vote on Mythic- I'd love to try it out.
Can you give us any character creation guidelines?
My vote on Mythic- I'd love to try it out.
Can you give us any character creation guidelines?
^ Id love to try Mythic as well.
Ok, Harakani, have you seen the Razmiran Priest Sorcerer Archetype from Inner Sea Magic &/or the Martyred Bloodline from Blood of Angels? If so, what are your feelings to, as I said, 're-skin' the Archetype to reflect someone who has been 'touched' per-se by Lissala or even her Herald?
Otherwise I will likely go for a 'straight' Mystic Theurge character Concept.
Hang on guys - interest only at this point!
I was figuring on a fair few creation guidelines. Happy to start talking them over now if you like... but I won't run this game without knowing I'll get at least seven applicants.
At the moment I'm looking at:
5th level
Paizo only
craft wondrous and & prof in a martial or exotic polearm
20 points atts for core races, 25-RP for other races.
Must have worshipped Lissala
Cannot be a dedicate of another god (or religious philosophy)
Ages is max starting age for class/race combo (27 years).
Bladebound may choose their polearm.
Clerics of Lissala may take seperatist without the domain penalty.
Lawful alignment.
No traits
prefer academic characters, with little survival (you can pick it up later)
Caster level NOT required, but is probably a good idea.
I'm more interested in why and how people do things than that they do, so I expect a lot of discussion is likely to take place.
Are the Craft and Polearm feats bonuses, or do we have to purchase them?
Gork, here... Reporting for duty! As you said, they're not optimized for wilderness. Maybe he's as hired guide. Could play as marginal or just as epic a part as needed.
Little Boy Blue... he needed the money!
DH: Purchase. I am tempted to give a bonus 5th level feat to make up for it. Remember any class with martial proficiency doesn't have to buy the prof, and wizards can spend their bonus feat on CWI.
What do you reckon?
Irnk: I'd love to see someone succeed at a Mystic Theurge.
BT: You want Gork, meet the requirements ;P
Hmmm - do people think Kingmaker over-rewards Cha to the point that people will feel a need to play Sorcerors "for the good of the group?"
I think that it kind of sucks that the arguably most integral leadership position, the 'ruler' slot only allows CHA Mod, when all of the others allow for one of two is a bit on the annoying side, yes.
One of the things I am curious to see Ultimait Campaign for, since they are bringing back the Kingdom Rules in there & I am curious to see if/what they have adjusted from Kingmaker.
DH: Purchase. I am tempted to give a bonus 5th level feat to make up for it. Remember any class with martial proficiency doesn't have to buy the prof, and wizards can spend their bonus feat on CWI.
What do you reckon?
I think that sounds reasonable.
Hmmm - do people think Kingmaker over-rewards Cha to the point that people will feel a need to play Sorcerors "for the good of the group?"
Haven't seen many sorcerers apply yet. I'd say that so far it hasn't been a deciding factor on what people decide to play.
That sounds fair, but did you mean Gork as one of the Seven?
Hmmm - do people think Kingmaker over-rewards Cha to the point that people will feel a need to play Sorcerors "for the good of the group?"Haven't seen many sorcerers apply yet. I'd say that so far it hasn't been a deciding factor on what people decide to play.
That was actually one of the reasons I was asking so many questions about a re-skinned Sorcerer Archetype as a 'Mystic Theurge-lite'. The others being of course the desire to minimize MAD & not have to wait quite as long before being able to cast the higher-level spells.
Ordinarily, I dislike Sorcerers/Casters in general going for the Rulership position because I have a personal aversion to the 'witch-king' trope, but since this whole premise is basically the 'Witch-King' trope turned up to eleven I'm exploring options.
How many potential players do we have right now?
looks like six with Irnk, DM Barcas, Doomed Hero, Stiehl9s, derosierr, & Black Thom
I'd never intended to be one of The Seven. I misunderstood. Bowing out.
Have fun all! Umm... five!
I am very interested. Sounds like a fun twist to Kingmaker.
So, you are going with the original write-up of Xin's 'Virtue's of Rule'?
That changes my concept slightly as I was kind of fiddling with the 'Runelord of Zeal' idea...
Doesn't break the concept, just requires tweaking slightly.
How wedded are you going to be to each school matching the Virtue exactly as they do in the source material & am I correct in guessing that you will be requiring the Thassilonian Specialist rules for any non-Universalist Wizards?
You were looking at the new virtues?
Not requiring Thessalonian spec or even wizard.
Isn't zeal a shorthand for 'Righteous anger'? You preferred the new virtues?
Schools matching the virtues is part of Lissala's cannon as I recall. If you pick a virtue that links to 'evocation', you should be able to cast a fair few evocation spells. If you are actually an illusion specialist then that sounds like roleplaying fodder to me!
In the game world the cult didn't have the luxury of carefully training up a specialist for each virtue. They recruited someone, then picked a virtue for them.
What I will do is ask that your mythic stuff should reflect your virtue and school. You might have been an illusionist recruited to fill a blank slot, but enough time with becoming the personification of evocation is probably going to rub off there.
That make sense?
I didn't so much prefer the new virtues as find some of the 'new' virtues easier to play actively. Zeal was the Virtue that became twisted into Sloth. Zeal is a significantly more active virtue than Rest & it is not so much 'Righteous Anger' as 'pursuing your ends with everything you've got'.
The 'new' Virtues were
Humility, which became Pride
Generosity, which became Greed
Love, which became Lust
Temperance, which became Gluttony
Charity, which became Envy
Kindness, which became Wrath
and finally
Zeal, which became Sloth
The thing to remember I suppose is that these are interpretations of these Virtues by an ultimately Lawful Evil deity. Lissala is & was always Evil, she just wasn't quite as evil as most of the other Evil Deities.
Doomed Hero here-
This is the beginning outline of my character.
He's a necromancer who champions the virtue of Abundance/Charity and wields a Totem Spear.
His utopian philosophy is that the dead should give their bodies to serve the living, allowing the toils of life to be given to those who have already lived fully. He believes that the gods' promise of paradise after a lifetime of work is a hollow one. Life should be enjoyed by the living, then, once dead, the soul goes on while the mortal shell toils for the next generation.
Essentially, he's trying to create a society of luxury built on undead labor.
James Jacob has kind-of said that the 'original' Virtues & the 'new' virtues are basically the same, which I have interpreted to mean that the original Virtues are how modern-day gamers might interpret Lissala's view-point on the 'new' Virtues.
I can somewhat see a justified pride in ones own capabilities & accomplishments as 'Humility'.
I can see 'having' wealth making it easier to be 'Generous'.
I can even see Fertility as an expression of the 'Love' between a ruler & their nation.
Likewise, I suppose having an abundance & not diving in to consume it all can be perceived as Temperance.
I can even see only going after the enemies that 'deserve it' being considered 'Kindness', hence 'Righteous Anger'.
Unfortunately Charity being perceived as 'Eager Striving' & Zeal being perceived as 'Rest' break down for me & neither really works switched with the other. Well, Zeal actually is 'Eager Striving' by certain modern 'real world' interpretations, but Rest & Charity just don't add up at all.
On the other hand, Charity, the willingness to give of oneself can be directly related, inversely, to Envy, the coveting of what others have; while Zeal, the giving one's all to a cause or goal, again is basically the direct inverse of Sloth, the incapacitating indolence.
Anyway, those are my 2cp & everyone else is likely well & truly sick of reading my posts now. G'night!
Actually Irnk I like your posts - this is the sort of thing I needed to know about before I could do a proper recruitment thread.
*ponders*
*waits*
*sighs*
Oh well.. I guess I'll have to take this first step one day anyway.. I'm interested but that would be my first PbP play here.
Guys - love you are keen enough to make characters, but this isn't a recruitment thread yet... I'm working on one, I swear..,.
Not to be simplistic... But, are we the good guys? What alignments, here?
Or Are we the players basically gonna turn this into a high-powered "Way of the Wicked"?
@Harakani - Don't tell him you like his posts, it'll just fuel his... ZEAL! :)
With a party of all "caster", I'd love to give the Mystic Theurge a try.
IF... we're the "good" guys.
Thinking a Summoner/Evolutionist, who along with his Eidolon is the "boogey-man", the thing that goes bump in the night, the legend you threaten children with.
Do the wrong thing and he appears to warn or punish you.
Lawful Neutral, concerned with "ethics" more than "morality". It's a fine line, but folks have been spending centuries walking it. Cartesian thinking, Categorical Imperative... Freddy, Beyond Good & Evil.
Marshal, Assassin, Sheriff type... information network, shadow warriors.
Probably the least "spell-castery" type, more martial/skill.
Thassilon degenerated into selfishness, which ultimately helped destroy it. I was hoping for a lawful neutral society. Some good, maybe some evil - but all working for the common good of the society.
Xin was LN, much like the Hellknights as a whole are. Black Thom, the word you are looking for is 'protagonists'. Although I doubt many if any of us will 'start' Evil.
Dot
Just in case anyone missed it; you guys convinced me there was enough interest, so I started a full recruitment thread. Hope to see those of you I haven't seen there there soon!