PC cleric of Lissala


Shattered Star


No spoilers please,

Was just wondering how appropriate or inappropriate a cleric of lissala would be as a PC in shattered star, I've been careful to avoid spoilers but it is pretty obvious lissala would fit the theme... but might be as the major villain!

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

No spoilers? I'll try...

Let's say Lissala's role is minor in the AP, but very thematically appropriate. Only issue I see is that her last high priest, Krune, was the last Runelord of Sloth, so you'd be less opposed to the return of at least that particular Runelord than most other adventurers.

That Krune business is part of this season's PFS metaplot, so it's not a Shattered Star spoiler, just something to consider when the rest of the group is trying to put down Runelords like horses with broken legs.

You will have one encounter near the very end that'll go your way, though, and I think that'd be pretty cool to see happen. Just be forewarned that in the current age, your fellow-priests are kinda kooky and dangerous, your goddess has fled Golarion (though she still grants spells), and your motivations will be a bit unusual.


So possibly a separatist who believes she left because her worship has been perverted would be the way to go?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I doubt you need to take the Separatist archetype, as the church is hardly organized enough at this point for there to be anything to separate from. So unless there's a domain you really want to take I'd just go straight Cleric.

Besides, her write up in Pathfinder #65 makes it clear that aiding the community was a major concern of her church, to the point that many question her lawful evil labeling, although James Jacobs has given the word of god that she is definitely LE, albeit with strong LN leanings.

For my part I'd say that a LG or N cleric of Lissala wouldn't be out of line, and certainly less of an issue than a Paladin of Asmodeous (for example).

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

She supposedly used to be LN, but the church (and the goddess) became perverted with time.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Actually, according to the Write-up & James Jacobs, Lissala has always been LE. She just has been more L than E, so-to-speak. It does however mention that the church had suffered notable corruption & dissolution with time & by the time of Earthfall most of the priesthood had pretty much switched over from Clerics to Wizards, their piety was so lacking.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I do recall the latter part of all that. Perhaps I simply assumed a conversion from LN to LE. Hmm.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

At any rate, I don't see any problems with a Lissalan cultist, especially if you're more one of the LN "nobility and runes and service" types.


Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Actually, according to the Write-up & James Jacobs, Lissala has always been LE. She just has been more L than E, so-to-speak. It does however mention that the church had suffered notable corruption & dissolution with time & by the time of Earthfall most of the priesthood had pretty much switched over from Clerics to Wizards, their piety was so lacking.

Great, that just ruined the deity for me.


Icyshadow wrote:
Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Actually, according to the Write-up & James Jacobs, Lissala has always been LE. She just has been more L than E, so-to-speak. It does however mention that the church had suffered notable corruption & dissolution with time & by the time of Earthfall most of the priesthood had pretty much switched over from Clerics to Wizards, their piety was so lacking.
Great, that just ruined the deity for me.

i don't get it?, why does that ruin the deity for you?


She's far less appealing as an option for a PC Cleric when she's Evil.

And she was originally introduced as LN, and I liked her far better that way.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Icyshadow wrote:

She's far less appealing as an option for a PC Cleric when she's Evil.

And she was originally introduced as LN, and I liked her far better that way.

Actually, Lissala was never pinned down as LN. The first time her alignment was mentioned, it was LE, and her description matched to that alignment is almost word to word identical to the one used in Burnt Offerings, when she was first introduced (but sans alignment or domains).


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

There's nothing wrong with having her be LN in your home game, as it won't effect anything in the story that I can remember.

There seems to be a strong push for it amongst the fanbase anyway, so barring any "Return of Lissala" storylines in the future it should be fine.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I fully support a homebrewing of Lissala as a LN goddess originally, turned LE by corrupting influence. Thassilon started as a utopian experiment, after all, and she was the patron deity of the nation. That she bailed when Earthfall blew up Thassilon (and, of course, Azlant) speaks to me of her personal investment in the nation, perhaps even becoming more like its decadent rulers as the nation fell from grace.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Lissala, just for the record, was never INTENDED to be a PC-friendly deity—she's one of several prominent Thassilonian religions intended to be associated with that empire's corrupted rulers.

This IS a good object lesson for me (and for other game designers out there) to not hold back on key information such as alignments and domains and the like when first introducing a deity, though... especially in cases where a faith or deity is not obviously a paragon of a specific alignment.

In any case, she does absolutely have lawful neutral worshipers, but like Asmodeus, she's intended primarily to be used in game as an antagonistic deity for bad guy NPCs to worship and work for.

Silver Crusade

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If it helps, Shattered Star itself presnets some interesting possibilities that some GMs could use to "okay" protagonist Lissala clerics.

Shattered Star spoilers, natch:
Taking a look at how Gein Kafog works could offer some interesting parallels that could play into the more LN-image some folks have of Lissala and pre-Runelords Thassilon.

At the very least, such a PC and Kafog would have a lot to talk about. :)

Silver Crusade

James Jacobs wrote:

Lissala, just for the record, was never INTENDED to be a PC-friendly deity—she's one of several prominent Thassilonian religions intended to be associated with that empire's corrupted rulers.

This IS a good object lesson for me (and for other game designers out there) to not hold back on key information such as alignments and domains and the like when first introducing a deity, though... especially in cases where a faith or deity is not obviously a paragon of a specific alignment.

Still, is "you made her too fascinating!" that harsh a criticism? ;)

Silver Crusade

I wonder if the gods themselves ever get tired of hipster followers? You know, those who worship obscure gods "ironically"...

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Mikaze wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

Lissala, just for the record, was never INTENDED to be a PC-friendly deity—she's one of several prominent Thassilonian religions intended to be associated with that empire's corrupted rulers.

This IS a good object lesson for me (and for other game designers out there) to not hold back on key information such as alignments and domains and the like when first introducing a deity, though... especially in cases where a faith or deity is not obviously a paragon of a specific alignment.

Still, is "you made her too fascinating!" that harsh a criticism? ;)

Not at all.

In fact, it's actually EASIER to have a worshiper of Lissala in a party than any other LE deity, both because Lissala is, as I've said elsewhere, more lawful than evil, and because her worship is more or less gone from the world. There's not a status-quo for her faith at this point.

But she IS and always has been an evil deity.


I'm still really interested in what those Seven Virtues of Rule were...


Harakani wrote:
So possibly a separatist who believes she left because her worship has been perverted would be the way to go?

I'm not taking the archytype...but "in spirit" that's the route I'm taking.

His studies have led him to believe that she was probably LN, and that it was her followers that perverted her worship to evil.
Not sure how he will handle anything to the contrary at this point.

He will be acting more like a scholar of Thassilonian lore, and I have deliberatly built him so that it's not obviouse he's a cleric (Mysterious magic, Eshchew, etc).


@nighttree - what is mysterious magic, and where is it from, please?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
nighttree wrote:
Harakani wrote:
So possibly a separatist who believes she left because her worship has been perverted would be the way to go?

I'm not taking the archytype...but "in spirit" that's the route I'm taking.

His studies have led him to believe that she was probably LN, and that it was her followers that perverted her worship to evil.
Not sure how he will handle anything to the contrary at this point.

He will be acting more like a scholar of Thassilonian lore, and I have deliberatly built him so that it's not obviouse he's a cleric (Mysterious magic, Eshchew, etc).

That brings up a question you're probably going to have to answer in-game at some point. Namely, why all the secrecy?

Are you hiding because of some secret commandment from Lissala? Does her faith have some secret enemy that you're hiding from? Or is it simply a somewhat outdated tradition that no one's questioned in a while?


It would appear that Lissala shares some similarities with Wee Jas in Greyhawk (apart from not being concerned with the dead).

Silver Crusade

Son of the Veterinarian wrote:
nighttree wrote:
Harakani wrote:
So possibly a separatist who believes she left because her worship has been perverted would be the way to go?

I'm not taking the archytype...but "in spirit" that's the route I'm taking.

His studies have led him to believe that she was probably LN, and that it was her followers that perverted her worship to evil.
Not sure how he will handle anything to the contrary at this point.

He will be acting more like a scholar of Thassilonian lore, and I have deliberatly built him so that it's not obviouse he's a cleric (Mysterious magic, Eshchew, etc).

That brings up a question you're probably going to have to answer in-game at some point. Namely, why all the secrecy?

Are you hiding because of some secret commandment from Lissala? Does her faith have some secret enemy that you're hiding from? Or is it simply a somewhat outdated tradition that no one's questioned in a while?

The big possible reason that stands out to me right now is that his greatest enemy faith is his own. He might view the current emerging cult of Lissala as a gross perversion of what she's supposed to be about(sins rather than virtues). This not only puts him dangerously on the outs with them(and they could be anywhere), but he might also have to keep his head down because of the growing public perception of Lissala's cult.

There might also be an element of "the time is not yet right for her return". Maybe he has to learn all he can first in order to serve her in the capacity of returning her true faith to Varisia.

MAJOR SPOILERS FOR SHATTERED STAR:
There's also the matter of the PC's expected actions throughout the AP very much being something Lissala would want, up to the beginning of the final volume.

After that point, loyalties will either be split or the character may have a severe crisis of faith.

Silver Crusade

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The Golux wrote:
I'm still really interested in what those Seven Virtues of Rule were...

The Seven Virtues of Rule:

Charity
Generosity
Humility
Kindness
Love
Temperance
Zeal

It's easy to see how one could get the notion that Lissala and Xin's Thassilon were mostly positive forces, ain't it? :)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Mikaze wrote:
The Golux wrote:
I'm still really interested in what those Seven Virtues of Rule were...

** spoiler omitted **

It's easy to see how one could get the notion that Lissala and Xin's Thassilon were mostly positive forces, ain't it? :)

The interesting thing, the more I think about it having read 'Dead Heart of Xin', is that they have to have been a kind of 'Victorian' or 'Noblesse Oblige' interpretation of those Virtues. The descriptions of Xin in the Past clearly show him as feeling he embodied those Virtues, but at the same time, I personally wouldn't consider that to be the case. What do you think Mikaze?


Mikaze wrote:
The Golux wrote:
I'm still really interested in what those Seven Virtues of Rule were...

** spoiler omitted **

It's easy to see how one could get the notion that Lissala and Xin's Thassilon were mostly positive forces, ain't it? :)

So they retconned the virtues?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

The NPC wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
The Golux wrote:
I'm still really interested in what those Seven Virtues of Rule were...

** spoiler omitted **

It's easy to see how one could get the notion that Lissala and Xin's Thassilon were mostly positive forces, ain't it? :)

So they retconned the virtues?

Simplified, more like.


Harakani wrote:
@nighttree - what is mysterious magic, and where is it from, please?

I believe it's actually a 3.5 feat.....I want to say from Secrets of Xen Drik (sp?)

I wanted the somantic components of his spells to be done by him tracing thassilonian runes in the air.

Mysterious Magic
Your study of unconventional magic gives your spells an odd appearance and makes them difficult to identify.
Benefit: The DC to identify your spells with the Spellcraft skill (either as they are being cast or once in place) is increased by 5. This increase is also applied to Spellcraft checks used to identify a spell's school of magic through Detect Magic or similar effects.
In addition, the DC to dispel your spells (or counter them with dispel magic and similar effects) is increased by 2.
Normal: See the Spellcraft skill discription (PG 82).


Son of the Veterinarian wrote:


That brings up a question you're probably going to have to answer in-game at some point. Namely, why all the secrecy?

Are you hiding because of some secret commandment from Lissala? Does her faith have some secret enemy that you're hiding from? Or is it simply a somewhat outdated tradition that no one's questioned in a while?

It's not a mandate from Lissala.

He actually did more or less start out as just a scholar of Thassilonian lore. When the events of RotRL, took things from being "ancient history"...to being something that can actually impact the modern world....he became almost obssesive.

At first level....he's not even aware that he is a cleric, he is simply testing the waters with his knowledge of the runes, and begining to see magical effects as a result.
He has of course heard rumors of cultists claiming to worship Lissala.
But he is more or less becoming a cleric with no formal training, and with only a small understanding that by using the rune magic he thinks he has pieced together, he is actually tapping some kind of bond with the goddess.


Mikaze wrote:


The big possible reason that stands out to me right now is that his greatest enemy faith is his own. He might view the current emerging cult of Lissala as a gross perversion of what she's supposed to be about(sins rather than virtues). This not only puts him dangerously on the outs with them(and they could be anywhere), but he might also have to keep his head down because of the growing public perception of Lissala's cult.

There might also be an element of "the time is not yet right for her return". Maybe he has to learn all he can first in order to serve her in the capacity of returning her true faith to Varisia.

This also plays a big role in his behavior. He genuinly believes that her worship was perverted, and wants to restore what it was prior to the perversion.


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I imagine the Virtues aren't replaced strictly by their opposites (Humility with Pride), but some of the comparisons aren't quite clear (though Love>Lust is obvious)

The most thematic links I can think of (some of them are opposites though) are:
Charity > Envy
Generosity > Greed
Humility > Pride
Kindness > Wrath
Love > Lust
Temperance > Gluttony
Zeal > Sloth

Silver Crusade

I believe those are the right matches as well. Comparing oppositional virtues to the schools related to the sins may help confirm it too.

James Jacobs wrote:


Simplified, more like.

The new take rolls of the tongue more naturally. I like it! :)

Silver Crusade

Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Mikaze wrote:
The Golux wrote:
I'm still really interested in what those Seven Virtues of Rule were...

** spoiler omitted **

It's easy to see how one could get the notion that Lissala and Xin's Thassilon were mostly positive forces, ain't it? :)

The interesting thing, the more I think about it having read 'Dead Heart of Xin', is that they have to have been a kind of 'Victorian' or 'Noblesse Oblige' interpretation of those Virtues. The descriptions of Xin in the Past clearly show him as feeling he embodied those Virtues, but at the same time, I personally wouldn't consider that to be the case. What do you think Mikaze?

I think "Noblesse Oblige" nails it, though probably with higher(and possibly still harsh, keeping with Lissala) expectations of those lower in station.

I'm totally with you on that characterization of Xin. He may have been a better man than many of his peers but wow did he have his flaws and blind spots. :)

Shattered Star spoilers:
Man, his almost choking out Xanderghul alone was rather telling. Kindness, Xin! Kindness!

And his complaints about the Shoanti and Varisians just screamed an attitude of "I know what's best for you, so listen to me and obey and I'll lead you into a brighter future. Or I can drag you into it. Either way."


Dang, this is now giving me an idea for a slant on a campaign.

A "secret cult" of Lissala trying to set up a new Thassilon with Kurshu the Undying's sponsorship. Med-high level + mythic Kingmaker variant with lots of out-of-their-comfort-zone academics thrust into the River Kingdoms wilderness.


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I actually like what the virtues were originally:
-Wealth
-Fertility
-Honest pride
-Abundance
-Eager striving
-Righteous anger
-Rest

Things that a ruler would need but that could easily be perverted into the sins as we know them.

Wealth to keep the nation's economy working.
Fertility to ensure an heir.
Honest pride in their nation.
Abundance to provide for all of their subjects.
Eager striving to push the nation and make it the best it can be.
Righteous anger to show the nation's enemies that you mean business.
Rest because a ruler is constantly under severe stress.

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