Goblin Squad Member
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I'll start this off by saying I truly believe that most video-game players make terrible video-game designers. But, here's goes nothin'.
A while back I posted the idea of player-owned shops as the basis for the in-game economy. It was a short post, and it got lost in the sea of posts that followed. I'd like to take the time to expand on this idea here.
What I'd like to see:
When I walk into a settlement, I'd love to see the streets packed full of NPC ran, but player owned shops. The mechanics behind this would be simple. If a player has the appropriate skills, he can set up (or rent) a building in a settlement and turn it into his shop. A NPC would man the shop 24/7 offering the players wares. The player could drop items into the shop, set a price, and presto, his shop is open for business. If the player so desired, he could run about the town advertising his great deals, or he could stand by the shop and offer discounts, or even haggle prices. The NPC is important because you wouldn't want a player to be screwed out of profits just because he can’t be logged in all the time. Plus, it seems most other crafting mechanics in the game are based around the idea of NPCs doing the grunt work and you are a manager of sorts.
Another very cool idea, though probably pretty far off, would be allowing players to set up shops outside the walls of settlements. Many fantasy worlds I've read about have sprawling towns that extend well past the city walls. Advantages to doing so: you wouldn't have to be officially a part of the settlement to do this. Disadvantages: you wouldn't benefit from the protection the walls offer. Perhaps your store could get looted, or simply burned down. Who knows? Just spit-balling on this one.
Foreseeable impacts to the game:
This would/could create regional economies based off resource availability. This has multiple consequences in and of itself.
First of all, it means that certain items will be cheaper in certain areas. If one area is known for having a certain resource, then it’s obvious that items made from that resource would be widely available there and probably for a cheaper price. This creates a need for traders to purchase items for cheap in one town, and cart them to a distant town to sell them for a profit.
Secondly, this also creates tension between kingdoms/landowners. History teaches us the number one reason to kill someone is over something they have, that you want. This applies doubly to governments and natural resources. Does this mean certain tracts of land will be more valuable than others? Most certainly. Is that a good thing? Hells yes! Last thing we want is for PFO to turn into universal love and peace for everyone, no fun in that.
Third. Not having a massive auction house would eliminate massive player congestion in NPC towns and give players one more reason to not hang out in NPC controlled areas. It encourages players to explore other settlements and travel to see what’s out there.
Lastly, it gives players who are interested in crafting/economy/trading a lot to work with. Prices will fluctuate, and if you can find a nice little niche market in some part of the world, you could make a pretty penny. Your shop could have a combination of self-made items, items you buy off of pass traders and items you buy from other local crafters. It also would allow for trading guilds to have a massive impact in the game. Setting player-enforced regulation on the trade of certain items. All sorts of player-content potential there. It also provides a never-ending need for caravan guards and merc CCs who want to protect these traveling traders. Last, and most importantly, it provides ample targets for the ne'er do-well looking to make a quick penny nicking some poor guys wares on the road.
Foreseeable in-game issues:
Space. I know PFO is gunna be big. I know it’s going to grow. I'm not really worried about map-size here. What I'm worried about is settlement size. How much space would 20-30 player owned shops take up? That’s not really an unreasonable number for a large settlement. This isn’t something GW has said much about, and I'm not too worried about it. It's all theory-crafting on my end.
Newbies. Players starting the game off wanting to be a salesmen of sorts would have a hard time doing it if they couldn’t quickly find a CC that would help them out. The idea of possibly allowing shops to be set up outside the city walls
That's all I got, I welcome any other ideas or issues I can’t think of. Also please don’t let this degenerate into a discussion about griefing... I'm so sick of that.
TL;DR - Regional based economies > massive auction houses.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another very cool idea, though probably pretty far off, would be allowing players to set up shops outside the walls of settlements. Many fantasy worlds I've read about have sprawling towns that extend well past the city walls.
You could take it one step further and have traveling merchants, tinkers, crafters - all selling from caravans they move about and setup a bit like Romany Gypsies :D Some honest, some doing a bit of banditry and smuggling on the side.
Goblin Squad Member
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Sounds great. I think this is Goblinworks' plan, because all their discussion of transporting goods through the wilderness would come to nothing with a centralized auction house.
Player shops are one of those things that don't have to be complicated to be a great addition to the game. All you really need is the ability to drop a storefront into the world, load it with items, and set prices.
One thing I think would be handy without going all the way to to an auction house would be a combined storefront. Allowing groups of players, if they want, to combine their effort into one building with one interface.
If NPC vendors are freestanding and every-vendor-to-himself, it's important that we can tell what sort of goods they're selling at a glance. Real bazaars work because you can tell who might have what you're looking for without rifling through every vendor's inventory.
On a tangential note, I'm not sure if there's been talk of taxation yet, but I hope that settlements can set taxes on businesses within their confines. I also hope the businesses can choose what percentage they're actually going to pay, because I'm evil.
Cheers!
Landon
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Goblin Squad Member
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Player shops would be great. Have it a limited resource. So in a small settlement maybe there are only 10 spots for stores, but in a big settlement that has invested in the infrastructure you could get say 50.
I think Auction house can be done right. Here is my idea.
I would like, Player market (with NPC vendors selling PC goods, based on some sort of merchant skill, with high enough skill they can buy goods ala GW2)).
Allow AH's but limit them. At the end of the day the thing is to have the appropriate cost to the AH.
1) A settlement is required for an AH
2) A settlement needs to be advanced enough to support an AH. Settlements are limited to how many goods can be posted based on investing into the correct infrastructure.
3) AH's are not by default connected to other AH's (so basically each settlement has its own AH).
4) Settlements (provided they are advanced enough) that are part of a player nation (provided its has invested in developing it) can link its AH to other settlements in the player nation. There is an upkeep cost to linking AHs. This cost is maintained by the player nation. The cost increases based on the number of settlements in the nation wide AH. Player nation can set a "tax" on the transactions to cover this cost and to make money for the nation.
5) Player nations can link their AH system with other player nation systems. In order to do so the player nations must be in an alliance. For both player nations there is an upkeep cost to maintaining this link. You can only do this with nations that are within one step of your alignment. The more PNs you link too the higher your cost for keeping this. All PNs can place a tax on the goods being bought sold.
So an example. PN A and PN B have an AH link. Someone in the PN A AH buys something from PN B AH through the AH link. PN B places a 2% export tax and PN A places a 2% import tax. The seller sells it for 100 gold, PN B gets 2 gold, PN A gets 2 gold, and the seller gets 96 gold.
Lets say PN B has an alliance with PN C. If PN B and PN A have the approprieate player nation skills, then PN A can buy goods from PN C through the link that goes C-B-A. This can get expensive as the taxes are all additive. In addition there is a flat 5% tax (that the game takes to rep something) for each step away. So if A buys from B there is no extra tax but if A buys from C through the link then there would be an additional 5% tax.
Not these are only for buying through your local AH. If someone from PN A walked to player nation C and bought directly from the PN C AH then there would be no extra tax.
Allow people to mark their crafted goods
Created by Player
Created by settlement (settlement leadership has to approve who can do this)
created by Company (company leadership has to approve who can do this)
Created by player nation (player nation leadership has to approve who can do this)
For local. If PCs have the correct merchanting skills and the settlement buys the proper skills, then a PC can ask a NPC guard for directions. They would get a list of stores based on type of store "blacksmith" "food" "magical goods" "general store" ..etc. Doing this would have a small upkeep cost to pay the guards to remember.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The only problem I see in not having a global trade mechanism is just that it would make difficult to value stuff's price. If I need to go from shop to shop, or worse from town to town, to make a research on price of something I want to buy. it will totally suck and spend a lot of time.
We need, at least, a way to know who is selling what and where, to be able to do good trade.
In EVE, we still need to go from place to place to buy and sell stuff, but the player can see the products and prices offered globally.
Actually, to buy stuff in someplace and sell in other where price is higher was a way a did a lot of profit in EVE, the time a played it. So comerce could work the way you say, with local player-owned shops, but we still need some way to see all the prices, to make trade go smootly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You kids today are soft! Having to shop around for the best price forces you to explore the world. Once you find someone who sells good stuff cheap you can build a relationship with them as a loyal customer. Also it will be a simple thing to ask around for good prices.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The only problem I see in not having a global trade mechanism is just that it would make difficult to value stuff's price. If I need to go from shop to shop, or worse from town to town, to make a research on price of something I want to buy. it will totally suck and spend a lot of time.
Well the inconsistant value of an item, is IMO a good thing. IE places near where an item currently can be found (Ryan has mentioned the nodes are going to be moving around quite a bit) The prices should be drastically cheaper than somewhere that is a long dangerous wilderness away from where it can be found. That being said I wouldn't be opposed to say diviners in existence that could find out where the best deal is so that you can chose if it is worth the dangerous trek out and back, or settle for the higher price of the current area.
Or perhaps the oposite, maybe settlements could invest in corriers/messangers that could go to universal boards to tell people when they have excess of X material.
In the end it is inevitable that such will exist out of game anyway. Forums etc...
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Goblin Squad Member
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The only problem I see in not having a global trade mechanism is just that it would make difficult to value stuff's price. If I need to go from shop to shop, or worse from town to town, to make a research on price of something I want to buy. it will totally suck and spend a lot of time.
We need, at least, a way to know who is selling what and where, to be able to do good trade.
In EVE, we still need to go from place to place to buy and sell stuff, but the player can see the products and prices offered globally.
In EVE you can only see prices in your local region, not globally (barring contracts, which aren't good price indicators anyway, and external tools like websites that collate global market information, which can be created for PFO as well).
Also, part of the value of an item in EVE is how fast you can get it into your grubby little hangar. Is it worth paying 20% more for that ship module being sold in your current station and getting it immediately rather than spending 10 minutes flying 5 systems over to a market hub and back again? It depends a lot of factors: The size of your wallet, how expensive the module is, whatever time pressure you might be facing, the intangible satisfaction you might get from paying the lowest price, and how profitably you could otherwise spend those 10 minutes.
So I don't see not having a view of prices over a large area as being bad. Time spent hunting for bargains may or may not be well spent, if it turns out the local price was actually pretty good, and that's a decision a shopper would have to make. On the other hand, some players may make it their business to get to know the lay of the retail land in the area, and sell that information (or use it for their own mercantile purposes).
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Goblin Squad Member
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You kids today are soft! Having to shop around for the best price forces you to explore the world. Once you find someone who sells good stuff cheap you can build a relationship with them as a loyal customer. Also it will be a simple thing to ask around for good prices.
I want have fun, not go everyday I need buy something to search market city by city. I doubt even the trade-foccused players will enjoy to have to go everywhere to see where they can get good prices.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Do you really think people are going to want to have to click through 20-50-100 different ah's every time they come to town to but a few items? It might be cool ONCE. Anything after that its just frustrating tedium.
No, I expect all the prices in one settlement to be easily available at once.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@leperkhaun
I agree with the idea of limited auction houses. Though I’d rather see them run as actual auction houses. Players could set a reserve price (i.e. a minimum) but no max-buy out. Otherwise there would be no reason to have player made shops, since you’d have a one-stop building to buy everything.
Another interesting idea is having the auction houses limited in how many items can be up for auction at one time. This would most likely keep the vast majority of every-day items out and only rare or unique items would be up for auction.
” 4) Settlements (provided they are advanced enough) that are part of a player nation (provided its has invested in developing it) can link its AH to other settlements in the player nation. There is an upkeep cost to linking AHs. This cost is maintained by the player nation. The cost increases based on the number of settlements in the nation wide AH. Player nation can set a "tax" on the transactions to cover this cost and to make money for the nation.
5) Player nations can link their AH system with other player nation systems. In order to do so the player nations must be in an alliance. For both player nations there is an upkeep cost to maintaining this link. You can only do this with nations that are within one step of your alignment. The more PNs you link too the higher your cost for keeping this. All PNs can place a tax on the goods being bought sold.”
This is where you and I differ. Linking auction houses in anyway discourages exploration and leads to a globally standardized economy. There would be little-to-no trade between settlements in a Kingdom as a result. Now, perhaps settlements in the same kingdom could have a sort of post-board that would show you going prices for things in other settlements, but you’d still have to travel to those settlements to acquire the items.
I really like the idea of the guards giving directions to different shops. Perhaps the PCs could even name streets, so the guard could tell you “The nearest black smith is on the corner of High Road and Temple Street.”
@LordDaeron
I understand your concern, but really, it comes down to a difference in settings. In EVE, you have high-tech telecommunications. Unless you want to write off something as a ‘magical’ post board (which I think is lame) you have no real basis for a global trade network. It makes the game far more immersive if you actually have to do some shopping around to find the best prices. Certain PCs can gain a reputation for always having the best deals, or the most diverse inventory.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I always loved back in Dungeon Siege when I would go into a town and visit the weapon shop for weapons, and the temple for spells and potions. The inn for NPC companions, and the stables for a mule.
There is a certain feel about going into a town and shopping that just felt... right. And none of the auction house MMO's have really managed to capture that feeling. All the good items of every category are in the same place. You barely need to visit NPCs.
What I would really like to see is production structures, sales structures, and production/sales structures.
For instance you could have a smithy, or you could have a weapons shop, or a smithy/weapons shop. The last would be the most expensive but it would be a great place to go shopping during your visits to the city.
In production/sales structures you would make it so that if you control it you can actually set products to be placed on display at a certain price as they are finished. So say you set your smithy to make longswords before you go to bed. You can set the price of those longswords and as they are made, people can actually come in and buy them.
The other thing is the people could place work orders there. You can come in, look at what items the shop offers and what their prices are. You see they make steel longswords for 20 gp each. You need 100 of them to outfit your town's guards. You create a contract saying that you will buy 100 longswords at X price if they are completed by X date. In the morning, the shop owner comes in, looks at the work contracts, and then accepts or rejects them, with a chance to send a message if they reject them like "20 gp is firm. I won't make them for 19 gp even in that quantity." or "I'm backed up right now, I won't be able to fill that contract for at least 3 days."
After the contract is accepted there is a bit of rep loss if the work order is not filled, or the costumer fails to pay within the pick-up date they specified.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The other thing is the people could place work orders there. You can come in, look at what items the shop offers and what their prices are. You see they make steel longswords for 20 gp each. You need 100 of them to outfit your town's guards. You create a contract saying that you will buy 100 longswords at X price if they are completed by X date. In the morning, the shop owner comes in, looks at the work contracts, and then accepts or rejects them, with a chance to send a message if they reject them like "20 gp is firm. I won't make them for 19 gp even in that quantity." or "I'm backed up right now, I won't be able to fill that contract for at least 3 days."
After the contract is accepted there is a bit of rep loss if the work order is not filled, or the costumer fails to pay within the pick-up date they specified.
Pure Genius sir! I hadn't thought of that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What happens in AH now is people will keep inflating or undercutting people and the price is never truly representative of the item.
When you own a shop you are going to look at profit margins. It costs me this much to make it and I want to make this much on each item. If the item is a regular sell you might make it cheaper so you keep competitive, if you are the only guy selling you might raise the price a bit. You raise the price too high then you are going to just send your customers to the next town.
If you want an auction house, make it an auction house. "At 5pm today we are going to be auctioning off the Lancaster Estate", you go, you bid, and hopefully you can get some decent stuff you can resell.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Not sure why you HAVE to standardize the prices by making a way to just SEE all the prices nearby, kinda takes something away.
Maybe we ought to just learn for ourselves what good prices are.
No one's forcing you to travel around for the best price, after all. Getting ripped off by greedy merchants is like, a time honored tradition.
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Goblin Squad Member
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At least for the players' 2nd hand stuff we need to havea place to anounce all prices. Maybe just the tavern's anounces board. But still we need it.
lolz 2nd hand stuff :D
for sale ... preloved suit of medium womens chainmail, nor required by previous owner who had an unfortunate recent incident involving a greatsword, some bloodstains, please be aware may need some repair
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Goblin Squad Member
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The regulation of prices could come form the Trade centric CCs. Each Kingdom is going to need a strong economy behind it to survive and players should be the ones ensuring this happens.
Scenario: You have a kingdom that spans 5 settlements. Each settlements economy is more or less controlled by the Traders Guild. The traders guild job is three fold.
One: It organizes all the harvesters/producers/merchants/traders of the kingdom. It makes sure the resources are going to the right people so that the items/equipment that needs to be made, gets made.
Two: It sends its people out to the other Kingdoms to get an idea of how much they are buying/selling stuff for. They make sure that their prices are competitive so they attract people to come to their Kingdom to buy stuff.
Three: They advice the Kingdom leadership on economic matters. "Sire, we are dreadfully short on raw materials due to bandit raids, we need to beef up security in these areas or risk having to import raw goods from other Kingdoms." or "We need to strike a deal with the Kingdom to the north. We need more iron then we could possibly produce to keep up with demand. Perhaps we can trade them lumber in exchance, as they seem to be lacking that".
This ensures that Crafting is NOT something you do on the side, but a full time job that you can make a character and chartered company around.
Obviously, you can choose not to be a part of said Traders Guild, but in doing so, your missing out on all that vital intelligence and organization that would make your life easier.
EDIT: The other advantage of being in the Traders Guild is that people would know that, at least in that Kingdom, if they shop at a Traders Guild ran shop, they're probably going to get a fair price for whatever they're buying.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Neandenil
2nd hand repaired stuff doesn't count???? As far I know stuff is repairable... and there are magic stuff 2nd hand, high quality masterwork stuff 2nd hand, etc, to sell you know?
There will always be some 2nd hand stuff that is on the market because the owner upgraded to a better one. That is true.
However most of the second hand stuff will be loot - and if its second hand AND crafted then it is not loot from a NPC. Two guesses where they got it :D
I see nothing wrong with a pawn shop the bandits have to sell their ill-gotten gains somewhere.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I say no auction houses, they don't fit in the fantasy theme. All trade should be done at shops, caravans, stalls, and with other players directly. Seeing training it time based (no grinding required), there will be plenty time to go around the settlement for bargain hunting, or to sell your goods to a merchant player for the best price offered. I remember players in UO would set up a stall and sell their goods, battering the price, else you sell and buy items from NPCs at fixed prices. The player sets the prices for his NPC and shops. The NPC shops would have their prices set by the developers for each settlement, so to encourage trade between settlements..
Selling directly to shops and players simulates better player interaction, better movement and spread in the settlements. Not everyone simply huggled around a single building or NPC as seen in other MMOs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think an "opt-in" system for a regional price check makes sense. You'll be able to know what the prices are, but you still have to travel somewhere. However, there will be those crafters that play things close to the vest. If you want to know what they are selling and how much it costs, you'll have to make the journey out there and find out. Decisions, decisions...
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Goblin Squad Member
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This idea came to me:
Make it a skill/ability.
If you want to know the regional economics of an given area. Perhaps there could be a skill/ability/merit badge or whatever that would allow you to someone how check prices over a given area.
I have absoluetly no idea how this would all work, or how you could impliement it without it being extremely gamey. But it would give anyone who wants to know these things the ability to know so, and those that would rather focus their efforts on something else will simply have to go off the word of those with the skill.
"What do you mean this sword is 20gp?! Thats outragous!" "Hey buddy, I know the market ok, thats my job, and 20gp is a fair price. You can look elsewhere if you want, but I know for a fact you wont find a better deal."
Think of it like the 'appraise' skill in various PnP RPGs
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Goblin Squad Member
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This idea came to me:
Make it a skill/ability.
If you want to know the regional economics of an given area. Perhaps there could be a skill/ability/merit badge or whatever that would allow you to someone how check prices over a given area.
I have absoluetly no idea how this would all work, or how you could impliement it without it being extremely gamey. But it would give anyone who wants to know these things the ability to know so, and those that would rather focus their efforts on something else will simply have to go off the word of those with the skill.
"What do you mean this sword is 20gp?! Thats outragous!" "Hey buddy, I know the market ok, thats my job, and 20gp is a fair price. You can look elsewhere if you want, but I know for a fact you wont find a better deal."
Think of it like the 'appraise' skill in various PnP RPGs
I like this idea
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Goblin Squad Member
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Merchant: "20gp for a sword around here is cheap in an area with little iron, I had to import it from that LE settlement three hexes away. Walking into an area like that raises the cost a bit, not to mention the travel time. However, I'm selling this Long Bow real cheap, only 5gp!"
Customer: "Thanks, I'll take it."
(bow and coin gets exchanged)
Merchant: "How about some arrows? 1gp each!"
Customer: "What!? That price is ludicrous!"
Merchant: "Those are real steel arrowheads on there!"
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would love to be able to place orders and have them filled
As to linked AH's. It should not be easy or cheap. It should require a high level of advancment in a settlement and should have a large upkeep cost.
I think if you balance those features what you will get is that those settlements that invest heavily in merchanting could show a significant advantage over a more martial settlement by providing a larger market. So it should not be something that a settlement can willy nilly do, and the cost should be high enough that people dont just go "ehhh might as well get this".
HOWEVER if they limited this and didnt allow linked AHs, i dont think that would be a big deal.
Forcing many economies and forcing people to look in different places can drive prices and encourage merchants (hmmm i can buy copper for 1 gold a pound here, then take a risk traveling through bandit country and sell copper over there for 5 gold a pound).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would say no auction house. There isn't a need for it. Personal shops worked just fine in other games. If someone wants to spend the time going from settlement to settlement to get the best deal then they deserve any deals they find for the commitment to do so. Most players will probably just go to the nearest available shop and buy what they need unless the price is truly outrageous. There's nothing wrong with that and it supports a local economy in the settlement.
Based on a Knowledge check or even a billboard you should be able to learn what shops are available in a settlement you travel to but not their inventory listing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You kids today are soft! Having to shop around for the best price forces you to explore the world. Once you find someone who sells good stuff cheap you can build a relationship with them as a loyal customer. Also it will be a simple thing to ask around for good prices.I want have fun, not go everyday I need buy something to search market city by city. I doubt even the trade-foccused players will enjoy to have to go everywhere to see where they can get good prices.
Which might mean they build relationships with other traders/explorers and deal with them on a regular basis to get the 'best prices'. Brings some RP to a MMORPG.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Which might mean they build relationships with other traders/explorers and deal with them on a regular basis to get the 'best prices'. Brings some RP to a MMORPG.You kids today are soft! Having to shop around for the best price forces you to explore the world. Once you find someone who sells good stuff cheap you can build a relationship with them as a loyal customer. Also it will be a simple thing to ask around for good prices.I want have fun, not go everyday I need buy something to search market city by city. I doubt even the trade-foccused players will enjoy to have to go everywhere to see where they can get good prices.
That works fine to regular players, but to casual players it might be seen as a waste of time.
I'm not asking for auction houses or global shopping but some place people can let other people know what they are selling and the prices, if they want to. Just like people do in real life, just a mural in taverns or something like that would suffice.
For me that will not be a big deal, I'm in a very big guild, with an entire trade sub-guild. I will certainly benefit from that, but other players will be in small or no guild at all.
Many players (maybe most) are not roleplayers but people who used to play other MMOs where you have or an artificial/controled economy or global auction houses, and will hate to expend time they could be PvEing or PvPing by seraching price shop by shop.
Something like middle term will work fine and satisfy almost everybody without much imersion breaking.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In my mind, this argument is about far more than convenience. True, Auction Houses are convenient, especially if they are global. To casual players, they allow a minimum of game time spent on gaining the items and resources they want, so that the majority of their limited game time is spent doing whatever they desire (exploring, crafting, etc.). However, not only is having an automated AH unrealistic for a fantasy setting (this isn't EVE), but it can be highly destructive to player interaction.
One of the reasons WoW was so successful was that it made everything so easy - the game controls, experience gain, and the trade. I made a fortune in WoW selling harvested resources on the AH without ever having to find buyers or meet my customers. But the more convenient you make every aspect of a game, the less you need other players - at least players that you have any need to interact with directly. By the time Rift came out, I discovered that there was a whole generation of gamers who knew nothing but the WoW model. I was determined to show that even in a theme park game - even with an AH present - that player-to-player trade was not only profitable, but preferable. After a year of play, I had created a resource supply company that always sold for lower than the AH and I made a fortune. More importantly, I had 100 people on my client list who came to me first for their harvested resource needs before going to the overpriced AH, and in the process, they learned how much more fun it was to have a real person to work with...most times buy and selling, sometimes bartering, and even gaining freebies for being such loyal customers.
For those who never experienced UO, players stocked their own vendors in player owned houses. They could determine price like an AH, but they could also personalize how they sold those items. But we also had player run caravans and player run markets where anyone could set up shop and sell directly to customers, allowing for haggling, for networking, custom orders, and developing ties that lasted through years of future business and word of mouth advertisement.
Nearly all that player interaction disappears once AH's are available. Certainly, people still trade face-to-face internally (within their guild), but the world trade disappears because of the convenience of an AH. Caravans of goods where you actually risk those goods to bandits - why should you, if you can just sell it across the world in an AH? Take the time to make a shop - why bother if people never need to leave the safety of their own town or settlement to buy anything they want? Spend a few hours at a table in a player run market - what a waste of your time as a merchant when you have a world full of customers 24/7 through an automated AH.
So this is not simply a matter of convenience. A player run economy does not simply imply player made products and player determined prices, but all the player interaction and community networking that should accompany it as well...if you want the most vibrant, interactive community possible. Certainly, some parts (player owned vendors, a mechanism for making orders, etc.) can be game controlled, but my rule of thumb will always be that the more of the economy you put on auto-pilot, the less need you have to interact with other players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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IMO that will not work. If I want to buy something and I think is expensive I will need to go shop by shop, and city by city till I find it in a good price. We need at least a global board of prices.
I don't think I could disagree more, LordDaeron. Let me share why.
The whole idea of an economy is the flow of goods and money not just from player to player but from place to place.
PFO needs opportunities for moving goods from place to place to provide reasons for interaction. That is the content of the game and almost everything depends on it.
High-traffic areas are more desirable for trade fairs and provide venues for player entertainment, opportunities for pickpockets, reason for permeable borders. If part of a settlement's income is provided by trade, rental of player shops, then that settlement will not be restricting access quite as strictly as they otherwise would.
If taxes are high one place shoppers and tradesmen will locate where the rates are more favorable. Neutral teamsters will have business opportunities picking up goods in one town and selling them in opposing alignment towns where those items are in greater demand. Moving goods along roads between settlements is exactly what is needed for highwaymen and therefore for guards.
Contrast that with your centralized clearinghouse/auction where you see one auctioneer and spend all your time browsing for the best price out of hundreds of the same item. Very limited interaction. Very little opportunity for content. Very little story and absolutely no drama.
Teamsters should not be limited to hauling ore and timber. Bandits should not be limited to sacks of rock and bundles of sticks for their booty.
And you should have to search high and low for your uber gear at the best price. You should have to travel for your deals.
It would be much better for the game even if you are inconvenienced.
You should have to decide whether your money or time is more valuable than the savings you might realize if you traveled between settlements to compare prices. The game is active if you are moving around in it.
No more crowds of silent zombies piled around the auctioneer as all the players in the game stand there browsing through hundreds of items, never moving, not even really playing, completely oblivious of one another.
Even if you can check PFOFan or some other site to see where the best selection/best prices, not only will you still have to travel in game to get your product, it becomes a challenge to get there and make the purchase before someone else buys them out. It will even generate content as people report prices to online information clearinghouses. Those who spend all their time trying to corner the market in specific goods will not be able to do so from one location.
No, better to have individual player vendors: I wholly support the idea, though it might be better if instead of an NPC the player has to commit whichever alt he isn't currently playing to automatically act as the bot-shopkeeper there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"Shop" to me means a place where people can see you goods & prices and buy (designated) stuff even when you are afk or offline. Being a street hawker or a trade caravan just requires a chat window and then a trade window. "Crafting on demand" just requires a contract system and a post office/courier/meeting place
1-since crafting will likely require settlement buidlings, the first obvious step is factory outlets; allowing my smithy workers to sell swords directly (for a set price) etc. There should be limitations to storage space.
2a-the second step could be standard player shops that hold items with a set price. The player has to provide goods and marketing, but is not involved in the actual transaction. From the customer perspective this means going from shop to shop asking what the swords costs.
2b-the second step could alternatively (preferably) be a market hall where all the settlement's licensed traders have stalls. From the customer perspective this means going to the market and comparing offers for swords.
3-more advanced options are systems with trading houses with buy offers as well as sell offers, warehouses and shipping contracts.
-when selling, you post goods where you are, at a minimum price. If there are already buy orders at a higher price the goods sell immediately (up to the ordered amount) at the buy order price.
-when bidding, you give a price/max.volume and if above the seller's price, you get it. Partial order completion is possible.
-lowest offer sells first, but the price is set by the buyer. Offering at 1gp means you are sure to sell first, but may get a standard price if that is what the buyer is looking for. Some sellers offer cheap to sell fast, some buyers spend time looking for bargains. If multiple buy orders are placed, highest offer gets served first (at their bid price).
-all orders (buy and sell) are anonymous.
-you can buy stuff offered in other harbours, but you need to go there to retrieve them (or repost them). Freetrader class can trade in faraway and hostile places, others only see offers in their region.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ being
I'm not asking for a global comerce or auction house. I just want to be able to see the prices (at least regionally) of stuff before I go travel everywere. I still need to go to the shop and buy it, I still need to travel if the price is better in another settlement, I just don't want to need to go to "5445487586965494" shops in "908746456" cities to get the better deals.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the most basic materials and goods should be available in starter towns for the sake of low skilled, new characters. Past that, I believe everything else should be player made and player sold.
As for seeing the best prices in a central location, such as starter towns, some sort of searchable bulletin board where sellers can list their deals and their location would be both helpful and less immersion breaking. Does this still require travel, yes, in both directions. Sellers would need to have someone (not necessarily them) post the add on the board. Buyers would still need to travel to the settlement to buy.
Would that answer your concerns, LordDaeron?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the most basic materials and goods should be available in starter towns for the sake of low skilled, new characters. Past that, I believe everything else should be player made and player sold.
As for seeing the best prices in a central location, such as starter towns, some sort of searchable bulletin board where sellers can list their deals and their location would be both helpful and less immersion breaking. Does this still require travel, yes, in both directions. Sellers would need to have someone (not necessarily them) post the add on the board. Buyers would still need to travel to the settlement to buy.
Would that answer your concerns, LordDaeron?
Perfectly. That is a good solution IMO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Possibility could have noticeboard in the tavern, where players can advertise their good, and where to go to do some trade.
At least it is much better than those horrible lazy power levellers auction houses. Yet still allows for players to announce their goods and make themselves known to others.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Lets remmember that travel, even fast travelling, will take normally more time in PFO than most MMOs we know...
If one have, lets say, 3 h to play per day but need to spend 2 hours travelling from town to town and looking at best prices, or even at the availability of some products (that, almost certainly, will not be present in all towns), it will let him with 1 h to PvE/PvP. Not a good "meaningfull human interaction"-like experience IMO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Possibility could have noticeboard in the tavern, where players can advertise their good, and where to go to do some trade.
At least it is much better than those horrible lazy power levellers auction houses. Yet still allows for players to announce their goods and make themselves known to others.
That is my view too.