So, one of the rules changes in Pathfinder that always baffled me the most was rolling Acrobatics against an opponents CMD in order to move without causing Attacks of Opportunity. Now, I understand that rolling against a flat DC 15, like it was in 3.5, is way too easy, to the point of being pointless to roll at all after a few levels.
However, CMD is not a solid choice to be rolling against. Too many things add to CMD. It isn't only about BAB, Strength and Dexterity, it also about size modifier and anything that adds to touch AC. Not only is that mechanically difficult to succeed, it makes no sense fluff-wise: I can see Dexterity helping you react faster against a creature that is trying to avoid your attacks, but Strength? BAB? SIZE? If anything, size should be a NEGATIVE modifier here, not a positive one.
So, I've been thinking: Reflex already is the measure of how quickly a creature can react to anything, so why not make that an opposed check? It adds a bit of dice rolling, sure, but not a lot, and it enables some more combat options that were rendered virtually useless with the change. Plus, it is just a more logical approach to the problem at hand.
What do you guys think? Is that a good change?
As a house rule you could make the DC 11+Reflex, instead of an opposed roll.
Instead of an opposed check, I would just make it a flat DC. 10 + the opponent's BAB + the opponent's total Reflex bonus. And of course, if you attempt to tumble through their space, the DC increases by 5. This DC increases by 2 for each additional opponent avoided in 1 round (as per the normal rules).
As a special bonus, I would rule that you also gain a +4 bonus on Acrobatics checks to tumble if you are smaller than your opponent and a –4 penalty on Acrobatics checks to tumble if you are larger than your target.
However, like you said it makes more rolling. That tends to slow down the action a bit. I kind of like it as it is.
IMHO, a little more rolling is worth it to rehabilitate the archetypical agile skirmisher hero. But your preferences have merits, and I can totally understand them.
As a house rule you could make the DC 11+Reflex, instead of an opposed roll.
Now that is a GREAT idea! It solves the problem at hand AND the introduced extra rolling problem quite elegantly, since it adds the Reflex modifier to what would be the average roll in such a save! Great one, Majuba, thank you very much! I think I'll round the average down just to keep things simple, though (stupid, I know, but it is easier to remember 10 than 11; I wonder if it has anything to do with the base formula for AC?).
Instead of an opposed check, I would just make it a flat DC. 10 + the opponent's BAB + the opponent's total Reflex bonus. And of course, if you attempt to tumble through their space, the DC increases by 5. This DC increases by 2 for each additional opponent avoided in 1 round (as per the normal rules).
As a special bonus, I would rule that you also gain a +4 bonus on Acrobatics checks to tumble if you are smaller than your opponent and a –4 penalty on Acrobatics checks to tumble if you are larger than your target.
That works too! I'm not sure I'm too fond of the idea of adding BAB to the mix, since the base Reflex save also has a progression, even if slower. But it does make sense! And the bonuses and penalties you mentioned are great ideas too. Thanks for the input, Sellsword!
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I feel there is a problem with your logic, and I see this problem with many people that change rules. Flavor of anything can be described in any way. The only way to justify a rules change, in my opinion, is with the math.
As to the flavor:
Strength would absolutely help the defender. One strong hand in front of a person can stop them in their tracks. If I try to roll off or swim by (think football moves) to get by my wife of 110 Lbs., she is going to have a hard time stopping me.
The same move on the incredible hulk and I am stopped in my tracks! If his pinky gets in the way he can successfully block me.
BAB is his ability to anticipate my move. It shows his level of martial skill in battle. I think this is an awesome addition.
And finally size. Try moving around a stool. Now a plush chair. Now a couch. And finally a car. Each one requires more effort to hustle around and they are not trying to attack you! Longer arms, more bulk and the like will surely make acrobatics more difficult. You are not doing floor exercises in gymnastics, you are moving like Jackie Chan to avoid obstacles and people.
As to the math:
Lets assume a level 10 rogue vs. level 10 fighter.
Fighter - Str +3, Dex +2, BAB 10, Target CMD = 25
Rogue - Dex +3, Acrobatics 13 (1/lvl=10+3 class bonus=13) = 16
Rouge has to roll 9 or higher = 60% chance of success.
Same stats with new rules:
Figher - Dex +2, Reflex +3, base 11, Target Roll = 16
Rouge has to roll 0 or higher = 100% chance of success.
Is that what you are looking for? You claimed earlier that a target of 15 was to low, but here at level 10 the fighter's target is only 16. Yes the fighter can do things to raise his defense against this one attack, but the rouge is surely to do the same if it is a major move for him.
If this is not what you are looking for, set the target math. Should it be 80%, 60% or whatever? Base it on base characters like this and then allow for characters/NPCs to get much better at either side.
To me, the only thing you did is make it a LOT easier for the rogue to tumble. And as I stated above, you have taken away any bonus of the martial character. You made it as easy to bypass a great fighter as you did a wizard of the same level. Again, to me, that is a travesty.
Of course, your mileage may vary.
And finally size. Try moving around a stool. Now a plush chair. Now a couch. And finally a car. Each one requires more effort to hustle around and they are not trying to attack you! Longer arms, more bulk and the like will surely make acrobatics more difficult. You are not doing floor exercises in gymnastics, you are moving like Jackie Chan to avoid obstacles and people.
Realistically, you're absolutely right. However, I think the issue that most people have with larger opponents being more difficult to tumble past is that it doesn't fit the typical fantasy example of tumbling. When I think of tumbling past an opponent, I think of the knight rolling past the huge dragon to avoid claws, fire breaths, etc. and get in position to deliver a stab to the gut.
Actually doing that in Pathfinder, however, is mostly an exercise in futility (and getting mauled by a dragon).
Thank you for the new replies, people!
@Komoda: What you're saying is mostly correct. When you compare a character based on classes to another, then things are more or less OK. (Just to be clear, this house rule is targeting difficulty just as much as fluff, so there's that.) But consider this instead:
Let's assume a level 10 rogue vs. CR 9 Tyrannosaurus.
Rogue - Dex +3, Acrobatics 13 (1/lvl=10+3 class bonus=13) = 16
Tyranossaurus - Target CMD = 39
Rogue now has to roll 23 or higher = NO chance of success.
Same stats with new rules:
Tyranossaurus - Total Reflex +12, base 11, Target Roll = 23
Rogue has to roll 7 or higher = 70% chance of success
As you can see, we're comparing a CR 9 monster to a 10 HD character. Still, it has no chance of succeeding on doing something that might as well be the basis of his character, that is, moving around in melee range without getting hit (or else he will be seeing the grave pretty fast...). The problem is that while CR = HD for PC-like characters, the same isn't true for monsters. That Tyranossaurus is CR 9, but has 18 HD. As you can imagine, things get out of control really fast (specially for "weaker" types, like Animals), and a simple monster can shut down a character without even being built for it. I can understand your reasoning, but I prefer the maneuver being 100% accurate against something and mildly difficult against other things than being mildly difficult against something and just plain impossible against other things. At least, it seems more fun to the players. Besides, you can always build something to shutdown a tumbler when you feel it's right :) Still, it might be TOO easy, so adding BAB to the mix might indeed be a good one, though it is increasing the rule's complexity.
@ZZTRaider & Lord Foul II: Exactly, this is more to enable a typical fantastic archetype than anything else, while the way it is today it is mostly impossible to do that with any good degree of success =/ Besides, this is simply to negate attacks of opportunity, it is, at most, increasing survivability, not increasing damage or anything.
If you're trying to get a good target percentage for success, you should also compare a character that's specialized in tumbling to one who isn't. Someone with +3 Dex and 10 ranks in acrobatics at level 10 is pretty much a casual tumbler; they should have a reasonably alright success rate against weaker foes, but probably not 30% or above.
Someone actually trying to tumble effectively at level 10 would probably look more like this.
Dex +7 (+4 base, +5 level bumps, +7 with stat item), Acrobatics +13, Skill Focus +6, Wondrous Item +5, Masterwork Tool +2 = +33
They're focusing on their primary attribute, since it helps them in many aspects of adventuring (though you could knock it down to a +2 item; 16,000 gp is still pretty pricey on a level 10's budget). They've maxed out acrobatics. They've taken Skill Focus, gotten a masterwork tool for another +2, and picked up a +5 acrobatics item (a ring or something), since 2,500 gp is very affordable at this level (they could go +10 if they really, really wanted to for 10,000 gp). They're not going to blow more than one feat on it, but a feat and 2,500 gp (out of their ~62,000 gp budget) is pretty cheap to be effective.
Versus the CR 9 tyrannosaurus you used as an example, they've got a 75% chance of avoiding an attack of opportunity. That's pretty dang good, especially since a tyrannosaurus is pretty much a worst case example. CR 10 dragons even have CMDs around 30, which is auto succeed territory for our mildly optimized rogue.
Heck, you could make a case that tumbling is still too easy.
Thank you for the new replies, people!
@Komoda: What you're saying is mostly correct. When you compare a character based on classes to another, then things are more or less OK. (Just to be clear, this house rule is targeting difficulty just as much as fluff, so there's that.) But consider this instead:
Let's assume a level 10 rogue vs. CR 9 Tyrannosaurus.
Rogue - Dex +3, Acrobatics 13 (1/lvl=10+3 class bonus=13) = 16
Tyranossaurus - Target CMD = 39Rogue now has to roll 23 or higher = NO chance of success.
Same stats with new rules:
Tyranossaurus - Total Reflex +12, base 11, Target Roll = 23Rogue has to roll 7 or higher = 70% chance of success
As you can see, we're comparing a CR 9 monster to a 10 HD character. Still, it has no chance of succeeding on doing something that might as well be the basis of his character, that is, moving around in melee range without getting hit (or else he will be seeing the grave pretty fast...). The problem is that while CR = HD for PC-like characters, the same isn't true for monsters. That Tyranossaurus is CR 9, but has 18 HD. As you can imagine, things get out of control really fast (specially for "weaker" types, like Animals), and a simple monster can shut down a character without even being built for it. I can understand your reasoning, but I prefer the maneuver being 100% accurate against something and mildly difficult against other things than being mildly difficult against something and just plain impossible against other things. At least, it seems more fun to the players. Besides, you can always build something to shutdown a tumbler when you feel it's right :) Still, it might be TOO easy, so adding BAB to the mix might indeed be a good one, though it is increasing the rule's complexity.
@ZZTRaider & Lord Foul II: Exactly, this is more to enable a typical fantastic archetype than anything else, while the way it is today it is mostly impossible to do that with any good degree of success =/ Besides, this is simply to negate attacks of opportunity, it...
Sorry dude, but I don't think there is anything wrong with the way the system works now. As with anything in Pathfinder, you have to invest in it for it to become effective. Your example of a rogue above is pathetic to say the least. That character didn't invest in anything to become a better tumbler. First off he could have taken skill focus in acrobatic, which would have given him another +6 to the skill. Secondly he could have also taken the feat acrobatic to increase it by another 4. Thirdly he could have boots of elvenkind to give him another 5 bonus. Finally his dex mod is only a +3 at tenth level? Wow that is the worst rogue stats ever! It should be at the very minimum +5...
So that gives our new and improved rogue a +33 to acrobatics (10 skill, +3 class skill bonus, +5 dex, +6 skill focus, +4 acrobatic, +5 boots)
Wow! Suddenly the system doesn't seem all that bad. Frankly, I didn't even try to make the acrobatics skill as high as I know I could. Remember, everything isn't supposed to be able to be tumbled around. That leads down a path that doesn't require much creative thinking in the way combats work out.
It's your game, do what you will with it, but I have never had a problem with the way it works now. Enjoy!
@Aratrok: You know what? You make some VERY good points. For some reason, I was thinking (not really thinking, more like feeling) that taking maximum ranks in Acrobatics would be somewhat optimized towards those ends. It's not even close. If you want to be an agile skirmisher, invest on it! What you say makes perfect sense. And you can certainly play around things so you don't even need to use up a feat or buy magic items to be competent about it (though not both at the same time =D). And I only noticed later that, indeed, the T-Rex is pretty much a worst case scenario. Heck, a CR 15 Adult Gold Dragon has CMD 40.
Still, we have the minor problem of adding anything that adds to touch AC to CMD also (circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses). That can be pretty brutal. Any insight on that?
@Valantrix1: Point taken. But please note that I only used the previously presented rogue and ran with it :)
So you think a rogue should have to invest two of his five feats on his way to level 10 to be a competent tumbler? Seems a pretty absurd argument to me. Rogues have few feats and need every one of them to be competent in combat (which is why he wants tumble in the first place).
Actually, Aratrok's build was less demanding fear-wise, and ended with the same final bonus. Skill Focus (acrobatics) and you're pretty much set. Heck, with a +10 Acrobatics item, you arguably don't even need that.
Side question: could you reliably tumble against a CR 20 Gold Dragon (CMD = 53) with no or minimal feat investment? I'm really new on optimizing for PFRPG, so I can't really gauge that.
Anyways, I'm still a little worried about all the touch AC stacking on CMD. It's not very difficult to shut down even a mildly optimized character built for tumbling using those kinds of bonuses.
@Larkas
Not at the moment, no. The number of ways you can augment CMD is more of an issue for maneuvers than for tumbling, though. Acrobatics can be augmented in some very significant, very cheap ways, and any class that wants to focus on it gets full progression (one skillpoint a level), rather than varying levels of scaling like with BAB.
Pumping up CMB is a bit more expensive, and much more difficult if you can't use your favored weapon to perform the maneuver. Not to mention that certain maneuvers lose their punch as monsters gain more exotic features (inability to trip flying creatures being a big one).
Unless you're a rage cycling barbarian. Barbarians with Strength Surge do whatever they want. :P
Edit: Hmm. Not sure about CR 20 tumbling. I've never realistically seen a game go to those levels, but I'll try and put something together.
Dex +12 (+4 base, +6 level bumps, +9 Dex item, +12 inherent), Acrobatics +23 (Skillpoints), Skill Focus +6, Wondrous Item +10, Masterwork Tool +2 = +53
Getting inherent bonuses to stats is pretty expensive through standard means, though. You could throw that out and still have a +50 bonus. That's a 90% chance to tumble past said dragon. 100% with the inherent bonuses.
All that said and done though, let's look at what you had to pay to get that bonus.
20 skillpoints - This kinda hurts. Acrobatics doesn't do a ton for you besides tumbling unless you're constantly making incredible jumps. The +50% bump to fighting defensively/total defense is pretty nice, but that only took 3 points to get.
1 feat - Skill focus, for a +6 stackable-with-everything bonus. You could toss this out if you really wanted to, but you wouldn't have as many auto-succeed situations.
10,050 gp - 50 gp for the tool is a drop in the bucket at almost any level, and at higher levels so is 10,000 gp for a +10 competence bonus wondrous item.
Pretty low-cost for the success rate you can expect.
@Aratrok: Alright! I'm very happy with what I see now, and convinced that the rule doesn't need any changing at all. Thank you very much for the enlightening point of view, Aratrok!
I have a character with 2 lvls of Elocater, I add my fly to my acrobatics (and vice verca) I make those epic checks like balanceing on water and leafs and whatnot
I completely forgot about the AoO stuff, this is awesome :3