Why bards with charm would not just revolutionize and take over the world... All the other bard's of course. Alot of the spells are fairly balanced.
And depending on player, some of the more versatile don't deal any damage. The caster still sacrifices something for it. Sure Charm Person (remember: humanoid only!, sylph is not effected for instance.) can stop potentially one fight, but what about the next fight of the day, or night... really screw with the caster, make him fight at night, and at least not be able to use those slots the next day when preparing.
No Character is an island.
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No Character is an island.
I think Polymorph Any Object could prove you wrong on that front.
If only temporarily.
Do you know, I once met someone from a group of 4 to 6 gamers who all played warriors because they found magic users to be remarkably underpowered?
Just about any spell can be broken... or completely useless... depending on how you play it.
No Character is an island.I think Polymorph Any Object could prove you wrong on that front.
If only temporarily.
YES! XD Made me LOL at work and got a funny look...
Personally, I have found prestidigitation to be a remarkably useful spell. It just depends on how you play and what you can come up with. If nothing else, try it and see what your gm replies with.
Do you know, I once met someone from a group of 4 to 6 gamers who all played warriors because they found magic users to be remarkably underpowered?
Just about any spell can be broken... or completely useless... depending on how you play it.
At lower levels with 2d6+8 damage being default at level 1 warrior types can appear overpowered. A bucket of damage however is usually irrelevant compared to things like wish (via summoning genies), time stop, fly, teleport etc.
In theory the daily depletion aspect should matter but often doesn't as by 5th level a spell caster can just cast haste sit back and do nothing and still contribute to the team. Similar arguments can be made for some of the buff spells that last 10 minutes a level.
Last I looked the big 3 classes are still clerics, wizards and druids except at the lowest levels and the divine casters are not to bad there either.
A lot of the things individually are not broken by themselves, they combo together, stack, or are just to efficient. Greater Magic Weapon for example is an amazing spell but its probably no game warping broken.
Who said you could only have one encounter per day? You can't always stop and sleep after every encounter. What if they are delivering a message to a village, or rushing to stop it from being burnt down...
A one trick pony seems to be broken when faced with what he is good at... doesn't mean broken.
Who said you could only have one encounter per day? You can't always stop and sleep after every encounter. What if they are delivering a message to a village, or rushing to stop it from being burnt down...
A one trick pony seems to be broken when faced with what he is good at... doesn't mean broken.
Teleport would love to have a word with you.
Who said you could only have one encounter per day? You can't always stop and sleep after every encounter. What if they are delivering a message to a village, or rushing to stop it from being burnt down...
A one trick pony seems to be broken when faced with what he is good at... doesn't mean broken.
The spell casters often have enough spells to go around after a few levels. The game doesn't work to well at higher levels and spells and power inflation are the reasons why.
Teleport would love to have a word with you.Who said you could only have one encounter per day? You can't always stop and sleep after every encounter. What if they are delivering a message to a village, or rushing to stop it from being burnt down...
A one trick pony seems to be broken when faced with what he is good at... doesn't mean broken.
And evil destroyer of villages wont have steps to prevent teleporting? or increased miscast of teleports? :D Personally would love to be able to teleport. Doesn't teleport have its own problems, though? I admit, never been able to play to a point with teleport being an option.
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Broken is a very strong description, however there are some spells that can in my opinion take some extra careful handling lest they become problematic.
1.) Emergency Force Sphere: This spell can make a magic-user incredibly resilient, especially combined spells such as summon monster or time-stop.
2.) Planar Binding: This spell can allow savvy PC's early access to the wish spell through the right selection of targets.
3.)Teleport:This spell eliminates a lot of low level tropes dealing with travel, and allows for the stereotypical Scry-and-Die tactics. When Teleport becomes available a GM needs to become aware of the mobility added to the PC's.
4.) Simulacrum: Another spell granting early access to wish, this spell also allows for the ability to break action economy as well as allowing for sets of "Crafting Factory Minions".
5.) Plane Shift: This spell is another mobility addition as well as a game changer in terms of access to extra-planar resources and at level 9 is something to be aware of as it can be a game changer. It is much less so at level 13.
6.) Limited Wish: Another spell that can be a game changer, especially for spontaneous casters as it adds enormous levels of flexibility, however the 1,500 gp cost does rein this spell in.
7.) Legend Lore: Also known as "No mysterious ruins/artifact/stranger for you GM!" this spell as well as other powerful divinations changes the face of the game when they become available.
8.) Wish: This spell is incredibly powerful and allows for some truly impressive things that a GM may have to adjudicate on the fly. Being prepared for this extremely powerful spell and the flexibility it brings is necessary. However the fact that it is a 9th level spell and as such is acquired very late in life, along with a 25,000 gp cost makes this spell in my eyes reasonable.
9.) Miracle : This is the bigger badder brother of wish due to the fact that it allows for casting without the component cost, or if the cost is paid for a better version of wish as long as the request is in line with the deities alignment. I like to cal this spell "Phone a Friend."
All of these spells have the ability to change the scope of a players abilities by a factor of magnitude by virtually eliminating entire types of challenges. I do not personally believe that any of them are "Broken" however I always watch out for them when they show up on a player's spell list simply due to the magnitude of change to that players capacity. Of course this is all just my opinion.
I hope this helps.
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And evil destroyer of villages wont have steps to prevent teleporting? or increased miscast of teleports? :D Personally would love to be able to teleport. Doesn't teleport have its own problems, though? I admit, never been able to play to a point with teleport being an option.
Anyone wasting his time destroying small villages would not, no.
Ok, So, if I understand how Teleport works, if you have never been there you have a 20% chance to have it go to a like place, or have a mishap, which can kill.
If you cast greater teleport is a bigger spell, and you dont have to have been there but you need to know what it's like accurately (ie: no misdirection or similar anti-divination spells) otherwise it's wasted.
Probably cannot bring mounts, or anything similar due to weight. Teleport trap, can shunt teleporters to another place and has a min area 520' area.
Anything blocking the astral plane (possibly mostly gm foolery) blocks teleport.
Also, limited capacity to bring others with you. Am I understanding the spells, correctly?
Ok, So, if I understand how Teleport works, if you have never been there you have a 20% chance to have it go to a like place, or have a mishap, which can kill.
If you cast greater teleport is a bigger spell, and you dont have to have been there but you need to know what it's like accurately (ie: no misdirection or similar anti-divination spells) otherwise it's wasted.
Probably cannot bring mounts, or anything similar due to weight. Teleport trap, can shunt teleporters to another place and has a min area 520' area.
Anything blocking the astral plane (possibly mostly gm foolery) blocks teleport.
Also, limited capacity to bring others with you. Am I understanding the spells, correctly?
Go re-read the spell.
For one the chance of killing you is astronomicall unless you have sinle digit number of hit points remaining.
Alright, using scrying: 89-96 on d% to go to a similar area, and 96-100 to have a mishap, assuming no penalties.
if he screws up your scrying: d20<13 then you go to a place like it, or a mishap.
if a mishap: 1d10 damage to ALL people teleporting, assuming objects are not damaged, though does not say specifically either way...
and then if scrying:
d20 <9 off target by x
d20 <17 to a similar locale
or a another mishap
if he screwed up the scrying back to the d20 < 13
So...
with no mucking: with mucking:
1d10 | 4% | 60%
2d10 | .1% | 36%
3d10 | -- | 21.6%
4d10 | -- | 13%
5d10 | --- | 8%
astronomical assuming he took steps to block your scrying without you realizing? have to assume enemy is as strong or stronger than party... with similar access. Don't misunderstand, I not saying teleport isn't powerful. But is something GM's have to be aware of. Or find ways to block it. *shrug*
I can't understand your numbers, how do you get the 60% chance of taking 1d10 damage? (and the rest of those numbers, i can't get neither the 36% nor the rest)
Also what is the d20<13 and the rest?
Please explain your post a little more.
And no your objects aren't damaged.
“False destination” is a place that does not truly exist or if you are teleporting to an otherwise familiar location that no longer exists as such or has been so completely altered as to no longer be familiar to you. When traveling to a false destination, roll 1d20+80 to obtain results on the table, rather than rolling d%, since there is no real destination for you to hope to arrive at or even be off target from.
If you cast from scrying, and he screws up your scrying and you get a false image: 81-92 = similar, 93-100 = mishap. 8 chances for mishap/20 = 40... alright, my numbers were a bit large...
1d10: 40%; 2d10: 16%; 3d10: 6.4%
sorry.
There were NINE nazghul...only NINE.
And Glorfindel alone, in the book, claims he can defeat seven of them. So imagine a testudo formed by Glorfindel, Elrond, Cirdan, etc with Gandalf and Galadriel in the middle.
“False destination” is a place that does not truly exist or if you are teleporting to an otherwise familiar location that no longer exists as such or has been so completely altered as to no longer be familiar to you. When traveling to a false destination, roll 1d20+80 to obtain results on the table, rather than rolling d%, since there is no real destination for you to hope to arrive at or even be off target from.
If you cast from scrying, and he screws up your scrying and you get a false image: 81-92 = similar, 93-100 = mishap. 8 chances for mishap/20 = 40... alright, my numbers were a bit large...
1d10: 40%; 2d10: 16%; 3d10: 6.4%
sorry.
Ok i assume that you say that your target uses the spell false vision and you fall for the illusion, correct?
If yes (and assuming your numbers are correct, i am a little rusty on probabilities) then you have a 6.4% of taking 3d10 damage (average 16.5) when are at least level 9. Do you actually think that teleport can kill you?
I find that one of the broken spells, beyond those already cited (I ban emergency sphere, for example, and it's the only spell I ban).
For example the spell Irresistible dance
It requires a touch attack, which might or might not be relevant. Some targets have a touch AC decent or even strong, but lots of them are damn easy to touch (a great wyrm for example). It allows a will save, but even if you make it, you lose your next turn.
couple it with a character with several available slots for this spell (bards being probably the biggest offenders), and it's an instant "I win" card versus a lot of enemies.
Several other spells that don't allow save, or have a very strong partial condition if you save, are also broken imho.
Kill, probably not, at least if you start at full health. But, you probably wont be in great shape, even if you manage to get close, or try it again, when you finally get somewhere close.
The SoD spells, are often, incredibly specific in what they affect, and what the effect is.
true, one turn is useful, if you can capitilize it.
Last I looked the big 3 classes are still clerics, wizards and druids except at the lowest levels and the divine casters are not to bad there either.
Sorcerer and Witches are there too. And Summoners quite close (as they get some IX level spells, they are a 3/4 spellcaster only in appearece)
Kill, probably not, at least if you start at full health. But, you probably wont be in great shape, even if you manage to get close, or try it again, when you finally get somewhere close.
You have 84% chances of arriving with 11 or less hp lost. 94% with 16 or less hp loss. That's pretty much nothing. It's a single use of channel energy from the cleric, or a couple charges of the Cure Light Wound wand.
The SoD spells, are often, incredibly specific in what they affect, and what the effect is.
true, one turn is useful, if you can capitilize it.
What about capitalizing it... casting Irresistible dance again? And then again? And once again? Rinse and repeat?
how many times can you cast said irresistible dance... how many big baddies are coming at you? A one trick pony is good at one trick. Dont get me wrong, is a little rude. It's the broken i wonder about.
how many times can you cast said irresistible dance... how many big baddies are coming at you? A one trick pony is good at one trick. Dont get me wrong, is a little rude. It's the broken i wonder about.
First, it's not a one trick pony. it's one spell. The rest of the bard can be whatever you want.
Second, you get one big baddie coming at you. That's why it is called "the big baddie". Sure, you can be attacked by several lesser baddies too. Those are cannonfodder for the fighter, or dealt with any of the other huge plethora of spells and resources available to you, as you only have spent one single spell known in Irresistible Dance. That gives you dozen of other stuff to do to deal with other circumstances.
And about how many times you can cast it... well, at 1200gp each if your bard has scribe scroll (or 1500 for your wizard, which has it by default), at lvl 15~16 the answer is "as many as you need to nail the BBEG to the ground with absolutelly no chance to act, ever". With the rest of the party pounding the BBEG, who already has -4 AC, -10 REF, no shield, and provoking AOO from every party member, it shouldn't take that long.
seems potentially a money sink. and a few it wont work on, but maybe a tad underrated, from what it looks like. not seen in action. but definitely something that probably should be looked at. or thrown back at the party.
The spells to create your own demiplane, particularly the 9th level one since it lets you change the flow of time on said pocket plane, is also pretty broken. I understand that crafting a high level item literally takes months and there needs to be some way around that, but having easy access to different time flow is just really powerful. Like retreating to recover spells and coming back much faster than you normally could.
I am incredibly disheartened, though not at all surprised, to see so many posters on this forum citing melee buff spells as the "broken" ones. I suppose PF's entire premise was to re-balance 3E by nerfing the noncasters, so their fans' views on what is powerful is in line with this philosophy...
I am incredibly disheartened, though not at all surprised, to see so many posters on this forum citing melee buff spells as the "broken" ones. I suppose PF's entire premise was to re-balance 3E by nerfing the noncasters, so their fans' views on what is powerful is in line with this philosophy...
I don't know if you are speaking about me and Irresistible dance, but I couldn't care less about the -4 AC and provoking. That's not what make it poweful. It's overpowered because it deprives the BBEG of actions, with no save. You can chain-cast it and perma-stun the BBEG. The rest of the party could kill it in AOO, or with arrows, other spells, or just telling him bad jokes until it explodes.
seems potentially a money sink. and a few it wont work on, but maybe a tad underrated, from what it looks like. not seen in action. but definitely something that probably should be looked at. or thrown back at the party.
Dude... The bard already can cast it three times in a row. The scrolls are just to keep doing it in the very remote case that 3 rounds of pounding a idiot lizard dancing in the floor does not cut it. And it's 1500gp, which is pretty much nothing at that level.
Let's see it this way. The group knows they are facing The Big Bad Evil Dragon TM. They are lvl 17. They can either pay to make the +4 sword of the fighter a +5 sword, which cost +18000 gold and gives him +1 to hit and damage, or they can spend that money to scribe 10-15 scrolls, to add to the regular 3+ casts that the bard, witch or wizard can cast and deny the dragon any action in 18 turns in a row, while the rest of the party pee on it.
Plus "it can be thrown back at the party" isn't an argument to say a spell is balanced. That's like saying nuclear weapons aren't powerful, because the enemy has them too, so you are scared to use it. That IS the definition of powerful.
I don't know if you are speaking about me and Irresistible dance, but I couldn't care less about the -4 AC and provoking.
No, I'm talking about the people saying Greater Magic Weapon, Haste, and so forth.
I don't know if you are speaking about me and Irresistible dance, but I couldn't care less about the -4 AC and provoking.No, I'm talking about the people saying Greater Magic Weapon, Haste, and so forth.
Ah, ok. :)
I don't know if you are speaking about me and Irresistible dance, but I couldn't care less about the -4 AC and provoking.No, I'm talking about the people saying Greater Magic Weapon, Haste, and so forth.
The buff spells do not tend to be game wreckingly broken but they are probably overpowered in relation to classes who do not have spells. A simple fix can also be used as you can rule that you cannot stack spells solves a lot of the potential abuse.
Covent's list of broken spells is a good one I think. One can easily just ban them and it will have very little impact on the overall power of the spell casters.
PF doesn't do high levels very well and that is due to the power level or offensive options and the rocket tag nature of the combat.
This is far from the default setting.
At lower levels with 2d6+8 damage being default at level 1 warrior types can appear overpowered.
that's a Human with 16 starting STR (+2 racial), a greatsword, and power attack.(actually it's 2d6+9)
So it's really nothing out of reach. Most basic race, using a basic martial weapon, with a staple feat.
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Maybe I am bad with math but I thought it was 16 str +3, and 1.5x str bonus = +4 and power attack +2, and 1.5x power attack +1.
I only got +9 when I used 18 str.
Now we have a lower str score and are getting the same results?
3(str)+1(1.5str)+2(PA)+1(1.5PA) = 7.
and
4(str)+2(1.5str)+2(PA)+1(1.5PA) = 9.
What am I missing here that lets 16 str count as 18 str when power attacking?
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*Reads thread*
*Furiously takes notes for my next wizard.*
Maybe I am bad with math but I thought it was 16 str +3, and 1.5x str bonus = +4 and power attack +2, and 1.5x power attack +1.
I only got +9 when I used 18 str.
Now we have a lower str score and are getting the same results?
3(str)+1(1.5str)+2(PA)+1(1.5PA) = 7.
and
4(str)+2(1.5str)+2(PA)+1(1.5PA) = 9.What am I missing here that lets 16 str count as 18 str when power attacking?
STR 16 from the point buy, and +2 racial from being human, makes 18.
Emergency Force Shield, an immediate action Resilient Sphere, at the same level. It's very, very hard to kill a mage with that in his spell list.
It's a standard to dismiss. sure he can block a lot, but then he's stuck without line of effect until he uses a standard action to dismiss it.
Two handed weapons are the most common melee build in my experience. They are very easy to create(Only need 1 feat, power attack) and do lots of damage. Great for newer players.
Interesting. Over the past two years or so, in three campaigns with a total of 8 players and probably close to two dozen characters...
Exactly one has been a two-handed melee weapon fighter.
In our group the melee builds are much more commonly built around two weapon fighting, sword and board or ranged attacks.
Yeah, the TWF guy does a ton of damage when he hits. But I haven't noticed that he significantly outdamages our TWF builds and he certainly can't keep up with our archers, unless by some miracle he can full attack every round. (I will also note that he seems to require a WHOLE LOT more healing...)
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Yeah, the TWF guy does a ton of damage when he hits. But I haven't noticed that he significantly outdamages our TWF builds and he certainly can't keep up with our archers, unless by some miracle he can full attack every round. (I will also note that he seems to require a WHOLE LOT more healing...)
Well, by definition, melee characters aren't ranged ;). So archers and 2hf aren't in the same group, because archers aren't melee.
And a 2h build outdamages a TWF for sure. Preciselly because melees don't get full rounds every round, and in the turn you move, a vital strike of 4d6+15 is much better than 2d8+10
Emergency Force Shield, an immediate action Resilient Sphere, at the same level. It's very, very hard to kill a mage with that in his spell list.It's a standard to dismiss. sure he can block a lot, but then he's stuck without line of effect until he uses a standard action to dismiss it.
No he isn't. It's implied that you use it while standing on the ground, but nothing requires this. And casters are pretty awesome at....flying! Hover 5 ft above the ground, create the shield to block someone's spell/attack, then fly out from under it on your turn. Hell, get Flyby Attack and launch attacks out of it before fleeing back into it for cover.
Even if it is on the ground, there are spells to get a burrow speed.
Emergency Force Shield, an immediate action Resilient Sphere, at the same level. It's very, very hard to kill a mage with that in his spell list.It's a standard to dismiss. sure he can block a lot, but then he's stuck without line of effect until he uses a standard action to dismiss it.No he isn't. It's implied that you use it while standing on the ground, but nothing requires this. And casters are pretty awesome at....flying! Hover 5 ft above the ground, create the shield to block someone's spell/attack, then fly out from under it on your turn. Hell, get Flyby Attack and launch attacks out of it before fleeing back into it for cover.
Even if it is on the ground, there are spells to get a burrow speed.
I never noticed that before. I've been playing as if it were a sphere. The more you know
Emergency Force Sphere, protecting old men from big monsters since 1954.
Emergency Force Sphere, protecting old men from big monsters since 1954.
Almost anyway. It wasn't so helpful for that last part with the fire whip. ;-)