Acute Senses. Something just feels wrong when a player says "I cast acute senses and then..."
...enter the canyon*.
...search for traps.
...search the room.
...look for treasure.
...pinpoint the invisible elephant in the room.
* Or other scary place likely to hold an ambush/monsters.No ranks required!
What's more, this spell is literally better in every way to similar spells of the same level.
Something broken in an Ultimate book? Say it isn't so! ;-)
I have yet to allow Ultimate books at the table. Too many of my players won't invest in a good set of books anyway.
My least favorite spell as a DM is Cacophonus Call. 2nd level Bard spell which the party bard throws at every boss fighter type the party encounters. Unlike the spell Hold Person where there is a save every round to recover, this one is save or be nauseated until dead(no attacks, spells, concentration, nothing other than a single move action per round).
Last game session took out a 21 HD leveled giant (50/50 odds with his focused/enhanced DC).Suggestions which could be commonplace for counters would certainly be welcome. This spell has ruined more well planned and interesting encounters than any other in my campaign.
Get rid of the spell.
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Now for some better thought out answers. BBEG's with good will saves is pretty much a must. DO NOT run encounters with one BBEG alone. Seriously this is at the root of way to much "This is OP!" threads. Action econamy alone makes it unwise but also things like this. If that BBEG had a someone that can remove the effect with him things would have gone much better yes?
Rerolls. PF has a plethora of ways to get rerolls. They are great for PCs but even better for BBEG's. 1/day for someone that might very well have a one encounter lifespan means more then 1/day on a PC that should be seeing around 4 encounters a day. (another point here. No 15min work days.) Ways to get rerolls, Saving finale spell, Preacher Inquisitor, and Duel cursed oracle. There surely are more that's just off the top of my head.
Then there are items. Even mundane ones like Soothe Syrup.
My least favorite spell as a DM is Cacophonus Call. 2nd level Bard spell which the party bard throws at every boss fighter type the party encounters. Unlike the spell Hold Person where there is a save every round to recover, this one is save or be nauseated until dead(no attacks, spells, concentration, nothing other than a single move action per round).
Last game session took out a 21 HD leveled giant (50/50 odds with his focused/enhanced DC).Suggestions which could be commonplace for counters would certainly be welcome. This spell has ruined more well planned and interesting encounters than any other in my campaign.
In the Kingmaker I'm playing, one player used this spell with his bard PC and it was a I Win button each time he used it.
This spell is completely imbalanced :
- Nauseated for 1 round per CL, with only one ST
- the worst thing is that it requires a WILL ST to avoid the effect, while conditions like nauseated are usually linked to Fortitude.
This spell, and the Dazing Spell metamagic feat are really the two most gamebreakers of the game.
YOU* gave as an example a 5th level spell, Flame Strike, which certainly a BBEG can cast. I have shown you that healing can easily keep up with that- to keep someone alive. It’s not at all important to keep everyone topped off until after combat. But now you move the goalposts.
I don't move the goalposts, it's just that you don't understand the example.
The cleric can cast either cure serious wounds, or flamestrike. Casting flamestrike helps to reduce combat length. Therefore, it makes the combat 1 round shorter. IF the combat is one round shorter, you save whatever amount of damage the encounter does in one round.So, to take your example, we have a party of 4: Cleric, Rogue, fighter and cleric. Young blue dragon breathes: Rogue evades, takes no damage. Cleric fails but has resist energy 10, so takes 20 points, Wizard simply is so far back or high up using Fly that he isn’t in the line (it’s really hard to line up 4 guys with a line breath weapon), and fighter saves taking half for 15. Cleric can cast CCW a 4th level spell and cure himself or fighter full . Or he can Channel 5d6, and everyone is healed full. Even if both the fighter and the cleric fails, and NO...
WOW. Your fighters are damn good taking REF saving throws, aren't they? The REF saving throw of an adult Black Dragon (CR 11, which is +2APL, being a proper encounter for a BBEG for a party of 4 lvl 9) is 22. The Fighter, unless he is an archer or some sort of DEX based build, won't have much more than +5 or so in saves. So yes, let's make it he gets both the cleric and the fighter, who fail. That's 12d6, or 42 average damage. Sure, maybe the cleric has casted Resist energy... if he didn't spontanously cast a cure spell using that spell ;). Which is my point of proactively cast of spells, instead of healing.
Even if the dragon do not take the Rogue (who has around 50% chance to evade the acid, by the way, rogues don't automatically save DC22), that weapon alone has done more damage than the healer can heal in one round. Hitting only two of the PC. Not only that, but Cure Wounds is touch, which means sometimes you need more than one action to use it (as you have to move)
So anything the cleric can do to make the fight one round shorter, is healing more than his regular healing spells can heal. That does not necesarelly need to stun the dragon. Even casting spells that help their mates to hit, or summoning monsters, or divine powering and going hand to hand (if a combat cleric), will help the group to bring the monster down faster. Monsters that go down fast, do less damage.
Sure, there are exceptions to this. A well placed Channel Energy can heal all the damage done by a weak AOE attack, effectivelly negating the action to the NPC. Bringing back somebody is always cost effective. Heal normally outheals almost anything. And Breath of Life is excelent. But the Cure X Wounds, aren't.
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Broken spells is a myth.
Now for some better thought out answers. BBEG's with good will saves is pretty much a must. DO NOT run encounters with one BBEG alone. Seriously this is at the root of way to much "This is OP!" threads. Action econamy alone makes it unwise but also things like this. If that BBEG had a someone that can remove the effect with him things would have gone much better yes?
If you tailor-made encounters, that's fine. But I play AP. And Nyrissa, in Kingmaker, is alone for example. So when the Bard took her with his Irresistible Dance, it was game over, regardless of Save (which she made)
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It's sort of an unwritten rule that you can change APs to fit your play style or, at least, no one will stop you. Unless you have players that have already played it they won't know either.
Yeah talking balance over what can break an AP is well fruitless. Its easy to break APs even with sup-par builds.
Emergency Force Sphere seems like it can be easily dealt with by an NPC stinking cloud. Also if they PC is also casting Time Stop their power level is pretty high.
I agree with 2-5 wholeheartedly. Limited Wish is pretty high up there on the levels side, and as you said the cost is a bit high. Legend Lore seems easy enough to deal with. I would exclude pretty much all 9th level spells from the broken list. I think once you reach the pinnacle of human magic being broken is part of the point.
Remember that Emergency force sphere blocks line of effect.
Remember that Emergency force sphere blocks line of effect.Emergency Force Sphere seems like it can be easily dealt with by an NPC stinking cloud. Also if they PC is also casting Time Stop their power level is pretty high.
I agree with 2-5 wholeheartedly. Limited Wish is pretty high up there on the levels side, and as you said the cost is a bit high. Legend Lore seems easy enough to deal with. I would exclude pretty much all 9th level spells from the broken list. I think once you reach the pinnacle of human magic being broken is part of the point.
It's really a damn shame how people have chosen to twist that particular spell, because the concept is really cool.
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It's really a damn shame how people have chosen to twist that particular spell, because the concept is really cool.Remember that Emergency force sphere blocks line of effect.Emergency Force Sphere seems like it can be easily dealt with by an NPC stinking cloud. Also if they PC is also casting Time Stop their power level is pretty high.
I agree with 2-5 wholeheartedly. Limited Wish is pretty high up there on the levels side, and as you said the cost is a bit high. Legend Lore seems easy enough to deal with. I would exclude pretty much all 9th level spells from the broken list. I think once you reach the pinnacle of human magic being broken is part of the point.
Ya using the spell as intended is a complete twisting of it. Look, the spell is a very powerful defense effect and you are basically saying "I can't believe people are treating a powerful defensive spell as a powerful defensive spell."
Seriously.
Also... the number of people whose top X broken spells don't include Planar Binding/Blood Money/Paragon Surge, suggests maybe, just maybe those people don't really understand what effects are powerful for casters.
Terrible Remorse used to be the best spell in the game before they nerf'd it. It used to last round/level with no save and then each turn they got a Will save. If you made it then you took no actions. If you failed you hurt yourself and then took no actions. Just goes to show that Paizo hates casters and can't let them have nice things, right? What's wrong with a 4th level spell takes someone out of a fight for 1 round/lvl with no save. I mean it's magic! It's supposed to be beat everything!
Fickle winds (lvl 5, ignore X level-X-archers, 1<X<999)
Technically that should be:
"Fickle winds (lvl 5, ignore infinite level-X-archers, X<infinity)"Because it's not "ignore two level two archers" or "four level four archers." It's "ignore ALL of the level two archers." And their level is irrelevant. They could be level 9000 and you would still ignore them. So we can simplify:
"Fickle winds (lvl 5, ignore all of the archers)"
My contribution to broken spells is actually the sorcerer elemental bloodline powers:
[Elemental] Ray: this is broken (UP). Sure you get a lot of them, but the damage is crap. The only time I'd use it is if I was down to cantrips.
[Elemental] Blast: this is broken (OP). Combine with this, this, and optionally this and at 12th level you're casting an equivalent 9th level spell.
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Also... the number of people whose top X broken spells don't include Planar Binding/Blood Money/Paragon Surge, suggests maybe, just maybe those people don't really understand what effects are powerful for casters.
I suppose it coudl be because those are well know silly spells and people would prefer to point out more unnusual ones.
Also... the number of people whose top X broken spells don't include Planar Binding/Blood Money/Paragon Surge, suggests maybe, just maybe those people don't really understand what effects are powerful for casters.
I can agree with this sentiment mostly, and I do apologize for not mentioning Blood Money and Paragon Surge, however it is mostly due to the fact that at my home game Blood Money is banned, and Paragon Surge while good is not more powerful than say a Wizard doing what he does, we considered it ok.
Paragon Surge is a Top shelf spell however and should carry a warning label as it can easily change the playing field.
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Timothy that is fine. Just getting an idea for what spells need to go and what spells eed to be rewritten for a personal project of mine.Blood Money and Paragon Surge
These are indeed silly.
Planar Binding is a trickier case. It's obvious that it can be ridiculously powerful. It's very intention is to break the normal power curve.
But it's also a "necessary" spell for many stories. We WANT evil wizards who summon things that they really can't quite handle.
Planar Binding is at its best when it's not entirely safe to cast, but you're tempted by the potential power.
Also, unlike Blood Money and Paragon Surge, it has a lot more subtle limits on it. The drawback of BM is purely mechanical; some Strength damage which can be cured in several ways. Paragon Surge is based on a cheesy mechanical trick.
PB however also has social/political risks: the monsters you summon don't come out of a vacuum. They were somewhere else first, and maybe worked for someone. You may be able to control that CR 9 devil you bound, but what about its CR 16 boss? And although that demon you just summoned doesn't have a boss, it did have rivals. Now that it's bound, its rivals have nobody nearby to check them, and they grow in strength.
If the GM ignores these risks associated with PB, then it's not the spell that's broken, it's just the GM giving you a free rise. PB is powerful but it's also complicated, not a risk-free ticket to ultimate power.
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Timothy that is fine. Just getting an idea for what spells need to go and what spells eed to be rewritten for a personal project of mine.Blood Money and Paragon SurgeThese are indeed silly.
Planar Binding is a trickier case. It's obvious that it can be ridiculously powerful. It's very intention is to break the normal power curve.
But it's also a "necessary" spell for many stories. We WANT evil wizards who summon things that they really can't quite handle.
Planar Binding is at its best when it's not entirely safe to cast, but you're tempted by the potential power.
Also, unlike Blood Money and Paragon Surge, it has a lot more subtle limits on it. The drawback of BM is purely mechanical; some Strength damage which can be cured in several ways. Paragon Surge is based on a cheesy mechanical trick.
PB however also has social/political risks: the monsters you summon don't come out of a vacuum. They were somewhere else first, and maybe worked for someone. You may be able to control that CR 9 devil you bound, but what about its CR 16 boss? And although that demon you just summoned doesn't have a boss, it did have rivals. Now that it's bound, its rivals have nobody nearby to check them, and they grow in strength.
If the GM ignores these risks associated with PB, then it's not the spell that's broken, it's just the GM giving you a free rise. PB is powerful but it's also complicated, not a risk-free ticket to ultimate power.
inb4 people call that logic house-rules.
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Has anyone mentioned source severance yet?
-Matt
Deadly Juggernaut! Not so much broken for PC's but as a GM I like to use it in combination with some sort of evil sacrifice ritual the BBG uses before the last combat. Depending on how fast the players get to the last encounter the BBG may have as much as a +5 luck to attacks and damage and DR 10-. That is pretty awesome. "Ha, HA, HA!: I am overflowing with evil power!"
inb4 people call that logic house-rules.The possibility of previously bound creatures seeking revenge is explicitly written into the spell.
Yep, but it doesn't say anything about their friends or associates.
Apparently the GM RPing the world is house-rules.
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Hey revenge is cool. You get xp for beating them and loot as well. Really why wouldn't you cast a spell that brings encounters to you?
I wonder what you think the average Huge Earth Elemental, Nessian Hell Hound or Bone Devil is going to be able to do in order to seek any revenge after returning to their home plane. None of them possess any SLA's which would get them back to the Prime nor do they have anything much which would to find him or her if they could. However each of them make excellent planar servants to bring along on your adventures.inb4 people call that logic house-rules.The possibility of previously bound creatures seeking revenge is explicitly written into the spell.Yep, but it doesn't say anything about their friends or associates.
Apparently the GM RPing the world is house-rules.
The last two have friends.
I don't expect the Earth elemental to do much. Binding the elements seems legit to me.
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I don't know that Wall of Thorns is broken (which is a terrible term, regardless) but it doesn't conform to similar spells in the same vein.
It has no defined Escape Artist check to move through, only a Strength check, which is going to be pretty tough for most monsters to make. It offers no cover to the creatures caught within it. It can't be hacked through with any reasonable speed, or burnt through. Any attempt at movement will kill most CR5-6 creatures before they escape.
Yes, I can and I do house rule this spell when playing, but for things like PFS, a 9th-10th level druid in most games is just s straight buzzkill. I'd prefer if it scaled with other, similar spells and allowed an Escape Artist check, granted cover, indicated what damage was inflicted on the occupants when it burns...basically fell in line with similar spells.
-Ben.
I don't know that Wall of Thorns is broken (which is a terrible term, regardless) but it doesn't conform to similar spells in the same vein.
It has no defined Escape Artist check to move through, only a Strength check, which is going to be pretty tough for most monsters to make. It offers no cover to the creatures caught within it. It can't be hacked through with any reasonable speed, or burnt through. Any attempt at movement will kill most CR5-6 creatures before they escape.
Yes, I can and I do house rule this spell when playing, but for things like PFS, a 9th-10th level druid in most games is just s straight buzzkill. I'd prefer if it scaled with other, similar spells and allowed an Escape Artist check, granted cover, indicated what damage was inflicted on the occupants when it burns...basically fell in line with similar spells.
-Ben.
JJ (James Jacobs) lets people in the thorns have 30% concealment (what is granted by heavy foliage)
We infer a cover bonus too since it is so hard to walk through.
Still one of the best spells ever.
Timothy that is fine. Just getting an idea for what spells need to go and what spells eed to be rewritten for a personal project of mine.Blood Money and Paragon Surge
What about Genius Avaricious?
Paragon Surge lasts minutes per level and grants a +2 (to two stats, fine). Genius Avaricious grants a +4 that lasts days.
JJ (James Jacobs) lets people in the thorns have 30% concealment (what is granted by heavy foliage)
We infer a cover bonus too since it is so hard to walk through.
Still one of the best spells ever.
Wall of Thorns is OK but at the level that you get it at large numbers of opponents will simply fly over it or teleport past it. It is often going to be little more than a short delaying tactic. I have the same issue with wall of stone which is even worse as it isn't hard to break through.
If your game features a lot of dungeons or city based stuff sure they can be great but beyond that not so much a lot of the time.
You can also drop it directly on foes.
It is only for encounter segmentation. You're a druid, killing what you don't put in the wall shouldn't be hard.
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I wonder what you think the average Huge Earth Elemental, Nessian Hell Hound or Bone Devil is going to be able to do in order to seek any revenge after returning to their home plane. None of them possess any SLA's which would get them back to the Prime nor do they have anything much which would to find him or her if they could. However each of them make excellent planar servants to bring along on your adventures.inb4 people call that logic house-rules.The possibility of previously bound creatures seeking revenge is explicitly written into the spell.Yep, but it doesn't say anything about their friends or associates.
Apparently the GM RPing the world is house-rules.
Elemental: you can probably get away with this. That's a normal PB, at level 11+, to get a CR 7 creature with some useful powers. You can get some good shock troops out of it, but it takes some time to raise them.
Nessian Hell Hound/Bone Devil: these dudes work in Hell. They have bosses, because it's Hell. Those bosses will be annoyed, because you just used their underlings without paying for the privilege. Something must be done about that. Otherwise they'll look bad; the manager who allows his staff to be used by mortals for free isn't getting the corner office.
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@andreww: CRB devil? I suppose you mean Bestiary I devils?
It only takes 1 lawyer to let 7 other devils in.
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Don't get me wrong. Planar Binding is a powerful spell, with the potential to hand you temporary minions with "stuff you're not supposed to have" according to your current level.
But if you start drawing the attention of unsavoury planes, you have no right to cry foul if that makes your life more "interesting".
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@andreww: CRB devil? I suppose you mean Bestiary I devils?
It only takes 1 lawyer to let 7 other devils in.
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Don't get me wrong. Planar Binding is a powerful spell, with the potential to hand you temporary minions with "stuff you're not supposed to have" according to your current level.
But if you start drawing the attention of unsavoury planes, you have no right to cry foul if that makes your life more "interesting".
I love XP and treasure that comes to me. Where do I sign up? Free +5 Inherent bonus to stats as a sign up bonus, oh wow what a bargain.
Hey revenge is cool. You get xp for beating them and loot as well. Really why wouldn't you cast a spell that brings encounters to you?You assume intelligent extra-planer beings are going to mindlessly run at you one at a time while you slaughter them?
Who said anything about them coming one at a time? You wouldn't get much XP that way since anything you can bind is below your CR.
Edit @ WWWW - Exactly! I know when PCs raid Skullgrind Keep, they automatically get TPK'd by powerful evil outsiders.
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Who said anything about them coming one at a time. You wouldn't get much XP that way since anything you can bind is below your CR.
Well, you are trowing all the CR system out of the window when using the broken caster thing, can not compalin when the DM do the same.
Besides, there is also the more sandboxy aproach to the game, where the character can face superior foes if they act unwisely.
Who said anything about them coming one at a time. You wouldn't get much XP that way since anything you can bind is below your CR.Well, you are trowing all the CR system out of the window when using the broken caster thing, can not compalin when the DM do the same.
Besides, there is also the more sandboxy aproach to the game, where the character can face superior foes if they act unwisely.
I'm not throwing the CR system out the window. A Level 9 Wizard with +5 Inherent bonus to all his stats does not increase in CR. Also... you may want to read WWWW's post its insightful as to the hypocrisy of your position.