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In a practice session I just had a player take a shot at a sahuagin king with his bow, underwater, from 1,000 feet away. He rolled a natural 20 and hit automatically. He rolled another natural 20 to confirm the crit.
The total attack roll modifiers for range and for using a ranged weapon underwater make the sum of his attack roll, and roll to confirm, to less than 0 (WAY less than 0).
A natural 20 is an automatic hit, but is it also an auto-confirmation when rolled on the crit confirmation roll?
Did he just assassinate the king under the sea?
I'm not sure, but I'd say a 20 on a confirmation roll assures a critical hit. But, hey--that's just me. Not sure what the rules have to say on the matter.
I'd probably have him roll another d20 to see if it's auto-death. A third natural 20 would indicate an arrow puncturing the creature's heart, instantly slaying it.
Not sure how useful that is to you...
Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a “threat,” meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make an attempt to “confirm” the critical hit—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the confirmation roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit, it doesn't need to come up 20 again.) If the confirmation roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.
bolding mine. seems pretty cut and dry.
So is a natural 20 on critical confirmation considered a hit, even when the total sum is less than the target's AC?
Not nearly so cut and dry I think.
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In a practice session I just had a player take a shot at a sahuagin king with his bow, underwater, from 1,000 feet away. He rolled a natural 20 and hit automatically. He rolled another natural 20 to confirm the crit.
The total attack roll modifiers for range and for using a ranged weapon underwater make the sum of his attack roll, and roll to confirm, to less than 0 (WAY less than 0).
A natural 20 is an automatic hit, but is it also an auto-confirmation when rolled on the crit confirmation roll?
I think so.
When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a "threat," meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or "crit"). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make an attempt to "confirm" the critical hit—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the confirmation roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit, it doesn't need to come up 20 again.) If the confirmation roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.
Attack roll, natural 20 -> hit, regardless of target AC
attempt to "confirm" = another attack rollBecause attack rolls always hit on a natural 20, and a confirmation roll is an attack roll, I would say that it is indeed a critical hit.
It says the critical roll needs to hit.
I was gonna say something else but then I realized does that mean if a 20+mods misses it doesn't confirm or does the 20 = Auto-Hit come into play for the confirmation.
Dammit. Glad we houserule crits.
The 2nd natural 20 is of no actual RAW importance. The said player has no chance to reach the target's AC, thus the hit is a normal one, not a critical.
so the parts about:
-a nat 20 on an attack roll is always a hit
-the confirmation roll is a second attack roll with the same bonuses
and
-if the confirmation roll is also a hit then the atack is a critical hit
with no mention of caveats about the second roll aside from "doesn't need to be another 20" isn't clear cut? It's all even in the same paragraph.
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Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a “threat,” meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make an attempt to “confirm” the critical hit—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the confirmation roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit, it doesn't need to come up 20 again.) If the confirmation roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.
Re-bolding for what I think are the most relevant parts.
More specifically: the confirmation roll is another attack roll. A natural 20 results in an automatic hit. Thus logically a 20 on a confirmation roll is an auto hit.
How your player is actually shooting a longbow underwater is another mystery entirely, however.
It clearly states the critical confirmation roll is an attack roll, and a 20 on an attack roll is always a hit. I'm not aware of any exceptions.
Ah. I see it now. I really wish Darigaaz had highlighted that part. I would have come around sooner.
Sorry about that RD. 1am and forum tags do not a coherent mix make.
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From reading the quoted RAW above, it appears that while the rules say that a 20 is a hit regardless of the target's AC, they don't say that it's a hit regardless of, say, underwater extreme distance difficulty modifier. If you've got a -40 modifier then won't you fail, regardless of the target's AC? I do think that the intent is for 20s to auto-hit, but I'm just playing a little devil's advocate here.
Also, I hate to use a slippery-slope argument, but it's absurd to think that a player can attempt any crazy impossible feat (s)he wants and expect to succeed 0.25% of the time.
IMHO, sometimes a DM needs to say "no, that's impossible and you don't even get to roll it."
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I hate it when fantasy heroes occasionally succeed at really unlikely things.
"Regardless of target's AC" also means it doesn't matter if the end modifier on your attack roll couldn't possibly hit the AC without the autohit clause, regardless of what those two numbers end up being.
Final attack modifier +1 ( a 1st level common with that one weapon they have proficiency in ) vs AC 40 ( a mildly defense-oriented great wyrm red dragon) is the same as final attack modifier -20 (shooting through massive cover and range penalties vs AC 15 ( an unaware underwater lord). In any of these cases, the fact that (any number from 1 to 20) plus (the final modifier to the attack roll) cannot equal or exceed the AC does not matter because a nat 20 is automatically a hit.
Also, I hate to use a slippery-slope argument, but it's absurd to think that a player can attempt any crazy impossible feat (s)he wants and expect to succeed 0.25% of the time.
Ummm... It's not any crazy impossible feat, just attack rolls and saves.
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How would you even describe something like that? The arrow lazily floats towards the sahuagin king as he makes his speech, then at the presentation's conclusion, the sahuagin king yawns...thereby causing him to swallow and choke to death on the arrow that happened to float near the immediate vicinity of his mouth. :P
Well, you were asking about the rules, not gameplay or realism. It's been stated quite a few times that I've seen, that oftentimes rules design decisions are made to facilitate fun gaming over realism.
If you prefer realism, houserule it. I think some alterations to max range increments would be sensible. This is the rules forum though. Them's the rules.
How would you even describe something like that? The arrow lazily floats towards the sahuagin king as he makes his speech, then at the presentation's conclusion, the sahuagin king yawns...thereby causing him to swallow and choke to death on the arrow that happened to float near the immediate vicinity of his mouth. :P
I'd probably make it into a plot point that a hitherto unknown third party magically aided the arrow, but I'm a big fan of PC actions triggering improvised plot twists.
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Well, I completely glossed over it, but you shouldn't be able to shoot at something 1,000 feet away unless he had double range increment on a bow. And if he did, give it to him: lethal attack is still fully lethal at 1,000 feet.
IMO, houserule it! Decrease range increment underwater so it is impossible to make the shot in the first place. Like trying to melee attack something out of reach.
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In a practice session I just had a player take a shot at a sahuagin king with his bow, underwater, from 1,000 feet away. He rolled a natural 20 and hit automatically. He rolled another natural 20 to confirm the crit.
The total attack roll modifiers for range and for using a ranged weapon underwater make the sum of his attack roll, and roll to confirm, to less than 0 (WAY less than 0).
A natural 20 is an automatic hit, but is it also an auto-confirmation when rolled on the crit confirmation roll?
Did he just assassinate the king under the sea?
Seeing how the modifier for missile fire through 1.000 feet of water is -400 I wouldn't have allowed the shot.
Ranged Attacks Underwater: Thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of water they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range.
Beside that there is the little problem of how he was seeing his target through 1.000' of water. Even assuming the target was illuminated by a spotlight through 1.000' of water you would see at most a bright blob with very uncertain borders. So even in the best condition it had concealment with a 20% miss chance.
Less that perfect conditions would give him total concealment and require the firer to guess the right square in which to fire.
Yes. But if he wanted houserules, he'd probably start this thread in the homebrew/houserules section :)
Short answer: it's legal by RAW.
Now RD, get on with complaining about the way the rules are written :)
Edit: Ah well, there you go. Rule that it's dim light under the water, no line of sight. Perfectly acceptable RAW way to deal with it.
Go PF rules team!
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Well, I completely glossed over it, but you shouldn't be able to shoot at something 1,000 feet away unless he had double range increment on a bow. And if he did, give it to him: lethal attack is still fully lethal at 1,000 feet.
IMO, houserule it! Decrease range increment underwater so it is impossible to make the shot in the first place. Like trying to melee attack something out of reach.
Longbow composite: 110' range increment, 10 range bands = 1.100' maximum range.
Distance ability on the weapon to double that.
Distance: This special ability can only be placed on a ranged weapon. A distance weapon has double the range increment of other weapons of its kind.
Differently from 3-x far shot reduce the range penalties but don't add to the range.
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Yes. But if he wanted houserules, he'd probably start this thread in the homebrew/houserules section :)
Short answer: it's legal by RAW.
Now RD, get on with complaining about the way the rules are written :)
Edit: Ah well, there you go. Rule that it's dim light under the water, no line of sight. Perfectly acceptable RAW way to deal with it.
Go PF rules team!
Second part is no houserules. It is environmental conditions. The rules don't give any information on how far you can see underwater, so the refer to real life. In RL you can't see at 1.000' underwater unless there are very special conditions.
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This is what I found in the rules in regards to sight underwater:
As a guideline, creatures can see 4d8 × 10 feet if the water is clear.
That maxes out to 320 feet. I suppose special circumstances could increase that.
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Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a “threat,” meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make an attempt to “confirm” the critical hit—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the confirmation roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit, it doesn't need to come up 20 again.) If the confirmation roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.bolding mine. seems pretty cut and dry.
*sigh*
okay let's break this down simply.
When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class[/b]
if you make an attack roll and the die rolls a 20 it is called a natural 20. A natural 20 hits regardless of your target's AC.
and you have scored a “threat,” meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”).
So you have hit your target. In addition to a hit you now have a chance that the hit was a criticl hit.
To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make an attempt to “confirm” the critical hit—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made.
To confirm that you did indeed score a critical hit you roll the d20 exactly like you did the first time (exact same modifiers). So you roll a d20, even if it is modified by a -10,000 penalty, you roll to hit.
If the confirmation roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit.
We showed above that a natural 20 is always a hit. So the confirmation roll happens to be a 20. According to the rules already established, that is a hit.
That means, that an attack roll, even modified by a -10,000 penalty, that rolls a 20 is a hit. Since it was a natural 20, the player rolls to confirm it as a crit. So the second roll, even with the same -10,000 penalty, turns out to be a natural 20, which we have established is a hit, results in a critical hit.
So, long story short, in ATTCK rolls, a natural 20, followed by a natural 20, is ALWAYS a crit, regardless of any and all modifiers. Sometimes people just get lucky...
Second part is no houserules. It is environmental conditions. The rules don't give any information on how far you can see underwater, so the refer to real life. In RL you can't see at 1.000' underwater unless there are very special conditions.Yes. But if he wanted houserules, he'd probably start this thread in the homebrew/houserules section :)
Short answer: it's legal by RAW.
Now RD, get on with complaining about the way the rules are written :)
Edit: Ah well, there you go. Rule that it's dim light under the water, no line of sight. Perfectly acceptable RAW way to deal with it.
Go PF rules team!
Sorry Diego, my bad, unclear replying. I was responding to Nightskies. And I was agreeing with you :)
Also, nice rule finding RD. Where was that gem hiding?
In a practice session I just had a player take a shot at a sahuagin king with his bow, underwater, from 1,000 feet away. He rolled a natural 20 and hit automatically. He rolled another natural 20 to confirm the crit.
The total attack roll modifiers for range and for using a ranged weapon underwater make the sum of his attack roll, and roll to confirm, to less than 0 (WAY less than 0).
A natural 20 is an automatic hit, but is it also an auto-confirmation when rolled on the crit confirmation roll?
Did he just assassinate the king under the sea?
Mechanically two 20's to hit and confirm are an auto crit, assuming no other factors in play.
But seeing a creature underwater at 1000' feet, should be some sort of starggeringly high perception check should it not? At that distance wouldn't the target have effective total concealment if not cover?
Also, I thought bows did not work underwater and only crossbows did? Or did the shooter have Freedom of Movement?
Just curious about the other circumstances in this.
Also, nice rule finding RD. Where was that gem hiding?
The Environments chapter of the Core Rulebook. It has sight ranges for all the common terrain types. They help to determine when you start making Perception checks between two groups in the region.
If your interpretation is that a 20 on the confirmation roll is not an automatic hit, then you must also recognize that a 1 is not an automatic failure. The two always go together.
I feel that 20 is an automatic confirmation.
In my humble opinion: no.
Or, if you have whiny players: yes, but doesn't inflict enough damage to kill him/her/it.
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It seems to me that if a natural 20 is an automatic hit, then rolling a natural 20 on the critical confirmation roll is an automatic hit, but not an automatic confirmation. A hit just means you hit, but you already did that with your first 20. In order to confirm a crit you must hit the target's AC, something a natural 20 doesn't always do.
Well, I completely glossed over it, but you shouldn't be able to shoot at something 1,000 feet away unless he had double range increment on a bow. And if he did, give it to him: lethal attack is still fully lethal at 1,000 feet.
IMO, houserule it! Decrease range increment underwater so it is impossible to make the shot in the first place. Like trying to melee attack something out of reach.
Longbow composite: 110' range increment, 10 range bands = 1.100' maximum range.
Distance ability on the weapon to double that.
Differently from 3-x far shot reduce the range penalties but don't add to the range.
Distance: This special ability can only be placed on a ranged weapon. A distance weapon has double the range increment of other weapons of its kind.
Actually, when it comes to using ranged weapons underwater, the rules have some pretty important things to say:
"Ranged Attacks Underwater: Thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of water they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range."
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I'm going to have to play devil's advocate here. I don't think I'm a fan of shooting something 1,100 feet away underwater with a bow, and I suspect there are rules somewhere that stop that -- but technically, not being able to see further than 320 feet away doesn't actually prevent you from taking the same shot. It just applies a 50% miss chance if you still manage to select the right square.
If you're bent on using RAW then you know how it's going to work, but my vote is for making a common-sense adjudication. If an archer fires a regular bow through regular water at an extreme distance, it's going to fail. If you want a hard-coded mechanic on why, you can say something like -- firing through water changes the range increment of your weapon to 5 feet. Every 5 feet applies a -2 as normal, but now you can't effectively target creatures more than 10 squares away.
Compared to dry land, I imagine that underwater assassins are much more about close-range camouflage and ambush than distance, perhaps with extra emphasis on 'oh god they see me run run run.' Snipers wearing a kelp ghillie suit, firing a weapon from 50 feet away, breaking a capsule of octopus ink and darting away when pursuers close in.
I think I just invented the undersea branch of the Red Mantis?
Edit: Expect to see the Red Crab Assassin come to an internet near you during Superstar 2013!
(hourserule/personal choice opinion here.)
I'd extrapolate from the -2/5' for underwater projectiles, and use those as the equivalent of shortened range increments. so 10 range increments for a bow underwater would be 5'x10= 50 max. (distance enchant to 100', not even mentioning lighting/visibility issues.)
As with all rules: Always remember it can be used against you as well.
Last session in one of our games our gm rolled two 20th, confirming a crit against my pc with an attack that would not have hit (or at least not confirmed) without the 20=autohit rule.
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Funny, i've just started kingmaker....
at a trading fort, we are almost all dead, wizard-out of spells, 1 hp. Melee fist to fist with minor big guy.... 20 followed by a 20 to confirm.
knocked him out.
Let it win. It happens so unfrequnetly (at least for me)
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In order to confirm a crit you must hit the target's AC, something a natural 20 doesn't always do.A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit.A 20 is a hit.
Correct, but you already established you hit with the first 20. Hitting again is just redundant. To score a crit you must succeed against the target's AC, as the rules specifically state.
But they also specifically state that the confirmation roll is a an attack roll, and on an attack roll a 20 always hits. If your confirmation attack roll hits, it's a crit.
It's there in black and white.
Also, as has been stated upthread, it probably helps NPCs and monsters more.
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...technically, not being able to see further than 320 feet away doesn't actually prevent you from taking the same shot. It just applies a 50% miss chance if you still manage to select the right square.
Seeing how the modifier for missile fire through 1.000 feet of water is -400 I wouldn't have allowed the shot.
The natural 20 question has been answered (critical confirmation is an attack roll and a natural 20 is always a hit on an attack roll, so a couple natural 20 rolls is always a critical). Since this has evolved into a "can an archer actually shoot 1,000 feet underwater" question, the quotes summarize where we're at now.
When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a “threat,” meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make an attempt to “confirm” the critical hit—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the confirmation roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit, it doesn't need to come up 20 again.) If the confirmation roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.
Bold emphasis. A critical confirmation roll is an attack roll. A natural 20 on an attack roll is a hit. A hit with a critical confirmation roll makes it a critical hit. As I've heard someone else say...
"A natural 20 is an auto-success on saves and attack rolls. REPEAT. A natural 20 is an auto-success on saves and attack rolls."
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But they also specifically state that the confirmation roll is a an attack roll, and on an attack roll a 20 always hits. If your fonfirmation attack roll hits, it's a crit.
It's there in black and white.
Also, as has been stated upthread, it probably helps NPCs and monsters more.
It does not state anywhere that if the confirmation roll hits, it's a crit. It does state if you hit the target's AC it's a crit. They are two different things.
Unless there's an FAQ or other official clarification I've missed.
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I don't quite get how anyone can see 20 + 20 as anything but an autocrit by RAW.
The rules are clear: the "confirmation roll" is an attack roll using the same modifiers as the attack roll that spawned it (sometimes with other modifiers from feats). The critical hit mechanism asks the following question: does this attack roll (the confirmation roll) hit the target? If yes, critical, if no, normal hit. The rules for attack rolls are likewise completely clear: a natural 20 is a hit, regardless of modifiers. Therefore, a natural 20 on the attack roll that is being used for critical confirmation is automatically a hit, and is thus automatically a critical. There is no other possible interpretation.
Now, if people want to house rule that the confirmation roll needs to equal or exceed the target's AC, that's fine by me, but sometimes lucky strikes happen, even against big dragons, and that's what the natural 20 on critical confirmation represents. Without it, you get situations where it is actually impossible to score that lucky hit.
Anything which reduces the impact of random chance favours the players in the long run, so it's not an unreasonable rule, but personally I like the idea that if my character charges a group of 400 archers, on average 19 of them will hit and 1 of them will really hit. And just a little bit of luck either way can have a big effect on the damage I take.