i mean, one feat for use one weapon, shield, armor or alike is nonsense at all, or even why dont drop that feat and make it a buyeable by coin knowledge?
I (a fighter), want to learn how to use the weapon i recently found in a treasure (katana), and i came at the town and ask for the weapon and so, then i pay to the weapon trainer an ammount of gold for learn how to use it?
the same for armors and shields?
one feat to rule them all... errr
So my question is:
Why if you drop the use rope skill mantain this feats so useless (weapon proficiency, exotic weapon proficiency(Light/Medium/Heavy) armor/shield proficiencies feats)?
why dont just make it a proficiency skill or even a price to pay for requirement?
gnomersy and blackbloodtroll, don't be a jerk.
The problem is that your logic can be applied to each and every skill/spell/ability.
Why take the wizard class? Why not just pay coin to learn how to cast spells and read magic?
The game is a system of resources and things to spend those resources on. For weapons it requires classes and feats. This is true across the board. If you want more efficeint weapons than you have to spend the feats or pick the right class.
Other systems use skills to represent understanding with certain weapons or weapon groups, but to be honest, the mechanics involved diverge so profoundly from Pathfinder, that I would struggle to patch anything remotely like it in. Skills would need to have a far more profound impact on every aspect of the game, and the cost of skills would have to have a cost modifier in line with the current point buy.
Incidentally, this makes for some very interesting formative characters, but they tend to become more and more specialized to an extent that is fairly extreme.
Try looking up Shadowrun. Its a fun, but completely different feeling game.
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Why don't the proficiencies comes at the cost of skill points?
I mean, one feat for use with only one weapon, shield, armor is nonsense. Why can't we drop that feat and make it purchasable by coin knowledge?
For example, I (a fighter) want to learn how to use the weapon I recently found in a treasure (katana). So I come to the town and asked for a weapon trainer to pay an amount of gold to learn how to use it. Same thing for armors and shields.
So my question is:
Why, if Paizo was willing to drop the Use Rope skill, do we maintain these feats that put a burden of useless feat taxes on a player (weapon proficiency, exotic weapon proficiency(Light/Medium/Heavy) armor/shield proficiencies feats)? Why don't we just make it a proficiency skill, or even a price to pay for requirement?
Reposted to be easier to read and understand.
Reposted to be easier to read and understand.Why don't the proficiencies comes at the cost of skill points?
I mean, one feat for use with only one weapon, shield, armor is nonsense. Why can't we drop that feat and make it purchasable by coin knowledge?
For example, I (a fighter) want to learn how to use the weapon I recently found in a treasure (katana). So I come to the town and asked for a weapon trainer to pay an amount of gold to learn how to use it. Same thing for armors and shields.
So my question is:
Why, if Paizo was willing to drop the Use Rope skill, do we maintain these feats that put a burden of useless feat taxes (weapon proficiency, exotic weapon proficiency(Light/Medium/Heavy) armor/shield proficiencies feats)? Why don't we just make it a proficiency skill, or even a price to pay for requirement?
Excellent roll on your Linguistics check Odraude.
As for the OP, I don't hate that idea one bit. And honestly if someone spent the time and money in game to do so and didn't slog the game down I would probably let him buy a free single weapon proficiency feat.
Slotted Magic items! (i.e. cloak of elvenkind)
+5 competence bonus to a skill: 2,500 gp
+10 competence bonus to a skill: 10,000 gp
+15 competence bonus to a skill: 22,500 gp
For slotless, double the price.
Ioun Stone of Everyskill
This miraculous ioun stone grants a +10 competence bonus to every skill.
Price: 890,000 gp!
why dont just make it a proficiency skill or even a price to pay for requirement?
Because if gaining the use of the best and most efficient weapons was this trivial you would be taking away one of the advantages of martial classes.
As someone already said: If you could buy weapon proficiencies with skill points the fighter would be the one who could least afford to buy proficiencies, while he should be the one who can do it the most.
(some generalization, I know there are other classes with just +2 skill points)
Sure you can buy weapon proficiencies, there is an ioun stone for that. Of course if you want the proficiency in order to base a build around that then you must clear with your DM on whether you can base your feats on magic items.
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ok.
i'm going to take a stab at it.
but i agree with posters that "$ for proficiency" is the wrong route.
the question is how to do this with skills in a way that favors martial characters and without rendering the proficiency feats themselves obsolete.
New Skill:
...
Weapon Proficiency (Int; Trained only)
A character with this skill can learn to use new kinds of weapons by studying them and applying prior knowledge of other weapon proficiencies he has.
The first time a character encounters a weapon with which he is unfamiliar, he may attempt to learn the weapon by practicing with it for 1 hour, hereafter reducing or negating the non-proficiency penalty he would otherwise suffer in attempting to use it. If he succeeds on a DC 20 check, his non-proficiency penalty with the weapon is reduced by -1, and again by -1 for every 10 by which he succeeds on the check, eliminating the non-proficiency penalty altogether with a check of 50 or higher. He may attempt this once per character level per weapon type, but he may not take 10 or take 20 when doing so. Any successes on these rolls are cumulative.
A character who is proficient with all simple weapons gains a +2 competence bonus to this roll. A character who is proficient with all martial weapons gains a +5 competence bonus to this roll. A character who first observes a proficient user utilize the weapon in a fight gains a +2 insight bonus to this roll (even if the weapon was used against him!).
Although this use of the skill reduces the non-proficiency penalty, it does not grant full proficiency with the weapon (such as for the purposes of qualifying for feats like Weapon Focus). A character who wants to become truly proficient with the weapon must acquire the appropriate feat (see Feats) or else must take a level in a class that grants proficiency with the weapon normally.
Finally, every time a character puts a rank in this skill, he may automatically negate the non-proficiency penalty with a single simple weapon. He needn't make a skill check to do this. If he is already proficient with all simple weapons, he may instead choose a single martial weapon. If he is already proficient with all martial weapons, he may instead choose a single exotic weapon.
...
(this could also be named "Use Martial Device" lol...)
ok.
i'm going to take a stab at it.
but i agree with posters that "$ for proficiency" is the wrong route.
the question is how to do this with skills in a way that favors martial characters and without rendering the proficiency feats themselves obsolete.New Skill:
...
Weapon Proficiency (Int; Trained only)
A character with this skill can learn to use new kinds of weapons by studying them and applying prior knowledge of other weapon proficiencies he has.
The first time a character encounters a weapon with which he is unfamiliar, he may attempt to learn the weapon by practicing with it for 1 hour, hereafter reducing or negating the non-proficiency penalty he would otherwise suffer in attempting to use it. If he succeeds on a DC 20 check, his non-proficiency penalty with the weapon is reduced by -1, and again by -1 for every 10 by which he succeeds on the check, eliminating the non-proficiency penalty altogether with a check of 50 or higher. He may attempt this once per character level per weapon type, but he may not take 10 or take 20 when doing so. Any successes on these rolls are cumulative.
A character who is proficient with all simple weapons gains a +2 competence bonus to this roll. A character who is proficient with all martial weapons gains a +5 competence bonus to this roll. A character who first observes a proficient user utilize the weapon in a fight gains a +2 insight bonus to this roll (even if the weapon was used against him!).
Although this use of the skill reduces the non-proficiency penalty, it does not grant full proficiency with the weapon (such as for the purposes of qualifying for feats like Weapon Focus). A character who wants to become truly proficient with the weapon must acquire the appropriate feat (see Feats) or else must take a level in a class that grants proficiency with the weapon normally.
Finally, every time a character puts a rank in this skill, he may automatically negate the non-proficiency penalty with a single simple weapon. He needn't make a...
i was thinking something like linguistik skill, a Rank per prof, and with a new weapon/armor/shield, a DC to use it without penalties until you pay the rank in prof skill after that, added to your proficiencies list.
with this we can made a trait for fighter favored class:
Weapon trained: add 1/4 rank to proficiency skill
This would trivialize weapon profficiency. It would also mean that classes like I dont know the ROGUE would be better with weapons then a fighter, since rogues have skills to spare. Heck a WIZARD could end up with a ton of weapon profficiencies given the high int. The point is essentially that martial weapons are mechanically better then simple, and exotic weapons are mechanically better them martial, there has to be a real cost to be able to use them or it makes the lower tier weapons pointless. What would be the point of a mace if for 1 skill point the character could use a scimitar? Or a katana? Personally I think there already is not enough incentive to use different weapons, I'd hate to add to that problem.
I do really like the idea of a Fighter Favored Class Bonus to give weapon proficiency, though...
"Reduce the non-proficiency penalty for one weapon by 1. Once the penalty is reduced to 0, the Fighter receives the appropriate Weapon Proficiency feat for that weapon."
EDIT:
In fact, it looks like there's a precedent for this in the Dwarf Oracle favored class bonus...
"Oracle: Reduce the penalty for not being proficient with one weapon by 1. When the nonproficiency penalty for a weapon becomes 0 because of this ability, the oracle is treated as having the appropriate Martial or Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat with that weapon."
and how if we make the proficiencies like a skills tricks buy system from 3.5
cost: 2 skill points
no more than one prof per level
max 1/2 level capacity to learn
so, you only can learn one prof every two level at the cost of 2 skill points!!
also, it looks like weapon proficiencies from AD&D2E...
and a rogue never can use more weapons than a fighter, because fighters has simple, martial weapons, light, medium, heavy armors, and light, large and tower shields... so those are a lot of weapons to start, at the 5 or 6 specified weapons a rogue can use...
or maybe we can import the weapon proficiencies from AD&D2E
warriors 3 at 1st and 1 / 3 levels (max 9 extra prof at 18thlvl)
Priest 2 at 1st and 1 / 4 levels (max 6 extra prof at 20thlvl)
rogues 2 at 1st and 1 / 4 levels (max 4 extra prof at 18thlvl)
wizard 1 at 1st and 1/ 6 levels
and this options would be writed in the class advancement part in CoreRule Book.
but maybe it can be pulled with the base attack of every class, so:
Good BAB 3 at 1st plus 1 every 3lvls
Medium BAB 2 at first plus 1 every 4 levels
Poor BAB 1 at first plus 1 every 6 levels
in this way we can kick off those almost useless feats (proficiencies and exotic proficiencies) or not.
really i like more this way
what do you think?