You can't get the benefit of the additional attack from TWO WEAPON FIGHTING if you don't have the feat.
This part isn't true. Anybody, with or without the feat, can get an extra attack when they fight with two weapons. All the feat does is reduce the penalties for doing it.
Since that is also what Flurry of Blows does, there is no way to stack the penalty reduction.
I see where Floyd is coming from. I could even possibly agree that the rules don't explicitly say that FoB and TWF are mutually exclusive.
But this theory breaks down when we get the monk to 8th level. His FOB now states "At 8th level, the monk can make two additional attacks when he uses flurry of blows, as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (even if the monk does not meet the prerequisites for the feat)."
Now, the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat does, in fact, grant one extra attack. But notice that the wording is the same - both the initial FOB text "as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat" and the 8th level upgrade "as if using Improved Two-Weapon Fighting" both say "as if using..."
Clearly, since the same wording is used, the authors intend you to apply the same rules.
Your mistake here, Floyd, is thinking that Flurry of Blows gives the monk an extra attack. It doesn't.
The monk Flurry of Blows does NOT give an extra attack. EVERYONE, monk or otherwise, can pick up a second weapon and make two attacks if they want to. It's just that everyone else gets huge penalties for doing it unless they take the Two Weapon Fighting feat, in which case they get small penalties.
At level one, the monk ability is essentially saying "The monk, just like everyone else, can take an extra attack according to the the rules for Two Weapon Fighting in the Combat chapter, but unlike everyone else, the monk is not required to use any weapons, he can use any combination of unarmed strikes or he can select from a limited list of several specific monk weapons. Even more, he can do this with just a single weapon, striking twice with it instead of being required to strike with two separate weapons. When he does any of this, use the rules for Two Weapon Fighting except calculate the monk's penalties for fighting with two weapons as if he had the Two Weapon Fighting feat, and use the monk's level as his BAB."
Is that RAW? Of course not, I just wrote that myself. Is it RAI? Obviously, since the actual explicit RAW wording for the level 1 monk Flurry of Blows feature is identical to the level 8 and level 15 Flurry of Blows upgrades.
At level 8, the monk does NOT an additional attack. Instead, he gets to use a feat that he otherwise doesn't actually have to take or even qualify for. That feat lets him get an extra attack that follows the established rules for Flurry of Blows.
Floyd: Cleave is a standard action, so you can't even combine it with iterative attacks from BAB.
The Magus is in the Ultimate Magic book.
The funny thing is that (if I remember it correctly) the Pathfinder designers specifically changed the wording of flurry of blows to use language indicating the TWF-feats, in order to make it clear that FoB and TWF worked the same way and could no longer be combined (which was possible in 3.5).
Floyd you must use a full attack in order to use TWF.
It has been that way since 3.5. The wording has not changed so the rules have not change.
Cleave gives you only one attack if you miss. That is it. Otherwise you get the 2nd attack, but that attack is not TWF.
Floyd there are abilities that allow you to get a second attack with the off-hand weapon if you are not using a full attack. Why would these exist if you can do so anyway?
edit:clarification.
Look at this.
Doublestrike (Ex): At 9th level, a two-weapon warrior may, as a standard action, make one attack with both his primary and secondary weapons. The penalties for attacking with two weapons apply normally. This ability replaces weapon training 2.
If you can already do TWF with a standard attack, why does this exist?
Floyd you must use a full attack in order to use TWF.
It has been that way since 3.5. The wording has not changed so the rules have not change.Cleave gives you one attack if you hit. That is it.
Floyd there are abilities that allow you to get a second attack with the off-hand weapon if you are not using a full attack. Why would these exist if you can do so anyway?
Forgive my impertinence oh powerful and terrible master but I rectified a small error for you. Clearly you are too busy spreading fear to bother with such trivialities.
Forgive my impertinence oh powerful and terrible master but I rectified a small error for you. Clearly you are too busy spreading fear to bother with such trivialities.Floyd you must use a full attack in order to use TWF.
It has been that way since 3.5. The wording has not changed so the rules have not change.Cleave gives you one attack if you hit. That is it.
Floyd there are abilities that allow you to get a second attack with the off-hand weapon if you are not using a full attack. Why would these exist if you can do so anyway?
That is why I keep you around. I wish minion #2 was so useful.
you can Cleave, successful or not, and use TWO WEAPON FIGHTING right after.
If you can use TWF whenever you want then what is the purpose of doublestrike?
Umm didn't the pathfinder dev team word of God that FoB does not stack with TWF. In one of the erratas they went so far as to say they are the same thing. They since errata that you can flurry hit with one weapon instead of two.
But if you just think about about it, FoB is a special attack action. TWF is only triggered on a full-attack action which FoB is not. FoB is a special monk only form of attack and synergies with very few non-monk feats and abilities.
Nice Minion
I have 1 or 2 more, but they never show up. Hopefully they are bending the universe to my will and recruiting for the Legion of the Many Eyed Shadow.
Double strike makes it a standard action, where any other gain and use of additional attack results in a full attack action. All I am saying is you can add an additional attack to a full attack action, and it will still be a full attack action, but adding an additional attack, and performing it, to a standard action makes it a full attack action.
You can't just add an attack onto a standard action. What you can do is make an attack and then decide to take your iterative attacks or move. It sounds similar to just "Adding an attack", but the wording matters.
Your wording allows someone to make an additional attack at any time and say its a full attack action.
My wording applies to the combat chapter which allows you to make the attack, and then decide whether to give up your remaining attacks and move or continue to attack.
The two are not the same.
My argument is the reason why you can't use manyshot as standard action.
That is why I keep you around. I wish minion #2 was so useful.Forgive my impertinence oh powerful and terrible master but I rectified a small error for you. Clearly you are too busy spreading fear to bother with such trivialities.Floyd you must use a full attack in order to use TWF.
It has been that way since 3.5. The wording has not changed so the rules have not change.Cleave gives you one attack if you hit. That is it.
Floyd there are abilities that allow you to get a second attack with the off-hand weapon if you are not using a full attack. Why would these exist if you can do so anyway?
Thank you thank you oh He of the Many All-Seeing Red Eyes.
*ducks into a shadowy corner to inform his wife that he should be on time for dinner as he has hopefully avoided death and/or torture today. *
Umm didn't the pathfinder dev team word of God that FoB does not stack with TWF. In one of the erratas they went so far as to say they are the same thing. They since errata that you can flurry hit with one weapon instead of two.
But if you just think about about it, FoB is a special attack action. TWF is only triggered on a full-attack action which FoB is not. FoB is a special monk only form of attack and synergies with very few non-monk feats and abilities.
There is no errata, but there is clarification.
So can he go TWF + Imp. TWF and get even more attacks?
No. This particular confusion has been clarified.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Thank you Wraith strike, Thats all I needed.
Floyd check my "list" for any future rules questions you have. :)
Go to the mechanics and rules list. I think that is what I call it anyway. :)
Marthkus, where can I find a copy of that errata?
I only have the most recent one.
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5le61?Monkeying-Around
Two weapon fighting does not grant an extra attack, it reduces the static penalties on the attacks to -2/-2. Flurry of blows allows a monk to use class level as BAB AND Reduce the static penalty to -2/-2. You can use them both at the same time all you want. Neither grant extra attacks and both have the same static reduction (ie NOT a bonus, just an adjustment). Waste your feats, have a great time. Tell your friends you use twf and fob together. But it won't change the mechanics of just using fob by itself.
you can Cleave, successful or not, and use TWO WEAPON FIGHTING right after.
Just to clarify this one: No, you can't. Cleave is a standard action, which means you can't combine Cleave with any full-attack action (not even with regular iterative attacks).
After this whole argument I can't believe nobody stated the obvious:
Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved
Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be
with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk
may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is
no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking
unarmed.
After this whole argument I can't believe nobody stated the obvious:
Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved
Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be
with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk
may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is
no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking
unarmed.
That doesn't mean a monk can't make them it means that he always uses his full str bonus on unarmed strikes even if he is TWF and not flurrying.
That doesn't mean a monk can't make them it means that he always uses his full str bonus on unarmed strikes even if he is TWF and not flurrying.After this whole argument I can't believe nobody stated the obvious:
Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved
Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be
with fist, elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk
may make unarmed strikes with his hands full. There is
no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking
unarmed.
0_o
How do you figure that?
That argument also would do nothing in the case of monks flurrying with anything other than unarmed strikes.
|
Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus. If you have a Strength penalty, the entire penalty applies.
There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply his full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all his unarmed strikes.
It's kind of clear what they meant by "no offhand attack"
saying you don't have an offhand attack is not the same as "you don't have a offhand and thus can't twf" you have an offhand, it's just never doing an offhand attack.