Floyd A Grecko's page

So with the Handle Animal skill, you can teach an animal companion the trick "Perform". If you do so, and you have your animal do the trick while you're using your Perform () skill, does it give you a bonus on your Perform check? And if so, does this apply for the PFS Day Job roll, or would that be "unbalancing"?

- Arandur

I am assuming, interpreting the rules as I recall them:

Once you have succeeded in teaching the animal a trick, the animal now can use what stats it has to assist you in an aid roll.

using perform, as from you question above:

You train it to "Perform", be it dancing, jumping, or catching bubbles, so it can do that trick when you command it. At the big show, you command it to perform (turn 1, rolling whatever handle animal roll is needed, DC 10: making an animal do something it knows how to do.). You start you performance (rolling perform skill check, with all your standard bonuses), and the animal will roll it's (most likely unskilled) perform skill check (w/ CHARISMA bonus, plus whatever other bonuses can apply, like the masterwork jingle bell harness musical instrument which gives the animal +2 to perform). If the animal's roll is greater than 10, it confers to your roll a +2 bonus, which is added to your performance skill roll (Turn 2). Profit (Turn 3).

A side suggestion: We house rule that if the assisting die roll is greater than 20, a bonus of +4 is conferred to the leaders roll, as well as, 30 granting +6, and so on.

Malachi Silverclaw

you stated:

Perform skills are divided into two categories: audible and visual.

The perform skills with audible components are:-
• keyboard, percussion, wind, string and sing

The perform skills with visual components are:/
• act, comedy, dance and oratory

This reply may be years too late, but I have found no RAW to back up these statements. Do you have a specific book and page number where it outlines which performance skills consist of audible or visual components?

Where as I can understand where one can assume that one performance skill would have one specific component or the other, through experience, flavor, or personal preference; there is no specific rule that I could point out to players to direct them into one path or another.

Unfortunately, there is a statement that suggests that each perform skill has both audible and visual components, and the Bardic Performance determines how the performance is delivered and perceived.

From the Core rules:
Fascinate relies on audible and visual components in order to function.

The 'and' in the statement above cannot refer to a single Perform Skill, if Perform Skills have an intrinsic component type. Since Bardic Performance is a Standard action to start, and free action to maintain, and Fascinate requires no die roll from the bard (only a saving throw from the target), unless the Bardic Performance calls out a Specific Perform Skill (i.e., Each round of the Distraction, he makes a Perform (act, comedy, dance, or oratory) skill check.), any Perform skill can be used for any Bardic Performance.

Thank you for your consideration.

Thank you Wraith strike, Thats all I needed.

Listen.....all I want to know is where can I get a copy of PAIZO official errata on this subject. Please.

The problem with deciding afterwards is not possible with TWO WEAPON FIGHTING because a penalty much be applied to the first, or primary, hand attack. So a player will have to decide to use TWO WEAPON FIGHTING before rolling for the first attack. And after taking the penalty for the primary attack, the player could not take the next attack, like you say, decide to take your iterative attacks or move. But you have to take that first penalty if you want to invoke TWO WEAPON FIGHTING.

Marthkus, where can I find a copy of that errata?

Double strike makes it a standard action, where any other gain and use of additional attack results in a full attack action. All I am saying is you can add an additional attack to a full attack action, and it will still be a full attack action, but adding an additional attack, and performing it, to a standard action makes it a full attack action.

Nice Minion

you can Cleave, successful or not, and use TWO WEAPON FIGHTING right after.

I am not saying using TWF would not result in a full attack action. I am saying that you can use TWF on another full attack action, as described in the TWF description on page 202. It awards an additional attack to an attack that already has one or more attack in it. Read the description on 202.

GM BLAKE

Thank you for looking at it from my point of view. You touched on the original point of my first post. I am looking for an official (Paizo Supported) ruling, so As much as I can see the RAI, I am not sure I can agree with what was intended. I also believe that the FLURRY OF BLOWS does award a new attack. "WHEN doing so he may make one additional attack...(pg 57)", so RAW does give a bonus attack. But I believe FLURRY OF BLOWS gives the extra attack, not IMPROVED TWO WEAPON FIGHTING FEAT. I still hold to my second reason for writing the first post. There are many abilities in this book which act like another, but is not that other thing because of an adjustment. Therefore, FLURRY OF BLOWS is not TWO WEAPON FIGHTING, as you must still take the feat if you want to build off the feat tree. I have not looked at the 8th level Monk yet as the character in question has not gotten their. I was just trying to apply the rules as they now apply. If you look at the 6th level monk, he has three attacks in FLURRY OF BLOWS. Things yet to investigate. I have truly appreciated everyone's point of view, but I need someone from PAIZO to tell me what was Intended at the company itself.

Thank You.

Talonhawke

Cleave is a standard attack not full round, so yes a second attack can be applied.

The description for whirlwind attack specifically removes all other attack by stating you make one melee attack at highest attack bonus. So even if you tried to get a second attack, regardless of it's source, it would be consumes by the wording of the Whirlwind Attack Feat.

As for the Mangus, I haven't investigated that yet: what book and page is the Spell Combat?

Talonhawke

Wait, I don't agee with your second post

Talonhawke

I agree

ARE

You are missing my point. TWO WEAPON FIGHTING is a special attack that can apply to other actions, like attacks.

OK, ARE, did you read TWO WEAPON FIGHTING on 202? What do you make of the addition attack to regular attack or attacks?

Game Printer

Did you read the description on TWO WEAPON FIGHTING on page 202? Can you add an attack to an action that already has more than one attack. Simple explanations cannot suffice here. And as much as you are trying to help, you are not supporting your arguments with facts, or book pages; just interpretations. You picked your side, and that's fine, but with out facts sighted by page numbers, you can't help me. Sorry.

TWO WEAPON FIGHTING can add attacks to actions that already have multiple attacks. Pg 202.

At this point, Consensus appears to be going against Rules as written.

ARE

If TWO WEAPON FIGHTING can apply to actions with already multiple attacks, it can apply to Full Attack Actions. If FLURRY OF BLOWS is a Full attack action, TWO WEAPON FIGHTING can apply to it as well. This is as rules are written in the book.

ARE

By that logic you cannot combine attacks from high attack bonus with TWO WEAPON FIGHTING, which makes TWO WEAPON FIGHTING obsolete as soon as a character gets a BAB of +6.

But the rules as written state that you suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or ATTACKS (Plural)(PG202) with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with the off hand when you attack this way.

That suggests that TWO WEAPON FIGHTING adds an additional attack to and attack that already has more than one attack. Any attack that has more that one attack is already, by your logic, a FULL ATTACK ACTION. And TWP WEAPON FIGHTING adds an attack to it.

I feel this may fall into the "for some special reason" category of your quote above. "For some special reason" is as ambiguous as "as if using .....". But TWO WEAPON FIGHTING special action states it can add an attack to actions with multiple attacks, a full attack action.

I agree with that, but the wording says more than one action. FLURRY OF BLOWS grants 2 and TWO WEAPON FIGHTING award another for a total of three.

Three is more than one. This does not say: TWO WEAPON FIGHTING is a full attack action. That's Because TWO WEAPON FIGHTING is a special attack that applies to other actions like FLURRY OF BLOWS.

Look at the TWO WEAPON FIGHTING on page 202. It says it adds an additional attack above the attack or ATTACKS (Plural). If TWO WEAPON FIGHTING is adding to an attack to an action that already has more than one attack, it is applying an additional attack to an FULL ATTACK ACTION! A full attack action like FLURRY OF BLOWS.

Gamer Printer

You have not backed up any of your rules with siting books or pages. You have listed common conceptions, but without text, they are only opinion.

I have backed up every rule with text and book, using only the Core Pathfinder Rules. If you have missed where I have done this see the other posts no directed specifically to you.

I fell that I have proved with rules a written that TWO WEAPON FIGHTING is not a full attack action but a special attack which can be applied to other actions. The result of that application makes the action full attack action (if you want the beneficial aspect), but is not limited to only non full attack actions.

I will list the rule sightings again.

TWO WEAPON FIGHTING pg 202
SPECIAL ATTACKS pg 197
Multiple Attack pg 184

then again I may be being Trolled, I can't tell.

Gamer Printer

Site the page and book that says TWO WEAPON FIGHTING is a Full Attack Action. If the book says that, Then I have to agree. But I have not found it.

Kryzayn

You may not be good at lawyer speak, but you bring up a fair point. Where does it say that using TWO WEAPON FIGHTING requires a full attack action. I admit, to get the extra attack you need to be performing a full attack action. But TWO WEAPON FIGHTING (pg202) suggests that you are already recieving extra attacks before the one TWF is awarding the you. If you are already receiving multiple attacks you are using a full attack action, and thus can't use TWF. But then why put it in the description.

TWO WEAPON FIGHTING is a special attack, that can be applied to other attacks, regardless of their timing. The ultimate action will have to be a full attack action to get that extra attack, but using TWF does not make it so automatically.

maybe an example:
My monk wishes to perform TWO WEAPON FIGHTING on his standard attack. He takes the -6, miraculously hits, and kills his target. Unfortunately, the next target is 20 feet away. Since he has no actually taken a second attack, he may perform a move action to the next foe. But cannot attack. Thus losing the second attack because he moved. He still took the -6 because he thought his target need to be hit twice to defeat it. This was not the case, and so the monk moved on.

In this instance, TWO WEAPON FIGHTING special attack was APPLIED to an attack, but because the second attack was ignored, the round consisted of a attack+move action, and not a full attack action.

Gamer-printer:

No where does it say that any thing being used as if the TWO WEAPON FEAT suggests that it affects the validity of using TWO WEAPON FIGHTING special attack. Not to be insulting, but your statement is an opinion and not a rule as written. If you have definitive rules, and which documents and pages they are on stating that TWF special action validity is dictated by TWF feat, or stacking attacks of any kind are illegal; and I will concede the point. I cannot find them.

I will state again. TWO WEAPON FIGHTING special action is just that, a special action, not a full round action. Special attacks can be applied to other actions, including full attack actions.

I want to thank everyone for discussing this with me. It is a highly debated topic, and I can see the points you are making from a story point of view, but I like to think I am siting from rules as written.

That being said, all 1st level character can perform two weapon fighting regardless what is in their other hand. Unarmed strike, and two types of shields are on the weapon chart. A first level fighter could strike with a mace for -6 and shield bash at a -10. With good attributes a first level fighter could have 2 attacks every round with nominal attack bonuses. The only reason I mention this is because I do not think a first level character having three attacks all that overpowered. It is unique to Monks but still only one attack higher that every other character. Mind you, NPC and monster monks can also do this, so it evens out.

ARE

No where does it say that TWO WEAPON FIGHTING cannot be added to an already Full Attack Action. TWO WEAPON FIGHTING is a special attack not a Full Attack action. But you can only gain additional attacks if performing a Full Attack Action, which FLURRY OF BLOWS already is.

From the Core book (pg 184):
MULTIPLE ATTACKS: A character who can make more than one attack per round must us the full attack action in order to get more than one attack.

From the same book (pg202):
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack OR ATTACKS with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way.

The description for TWO WEAPON FIGHTING suggest that you already may have extra attacks coming, meaning you are already performing a full-attack action when applying the TWO WEAPON FIGHTING extra attack. If you could not use TWO WEAPON FIGHTING with already earned multiple attacks, TWO WEAPON FIGHTING would be obsolete by the time any character reached +6 BAB.

FLURRY OF BLOWS is a full attack action that awards an extra attack, for two attacks. TWO WEAPON FIGHTING special attack adds an additional attack, that you may claim because you are already performing a full attack action.

Gamer-Printer:

I am not claiming to have the TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING FEAT. If I were to perform an FLURRY OF BLOWS, then immediately followed by and off hand attack awarded by TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING, without the TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING FEAT, I believe it would look like this:

First FOB: -8 (-2FOB,-6TWF)
Second FOB: -8 (-2FOB,-6TWF)
Only TWF: -10 (-10TWF)

This is before base attack, or strength bonus, or any other modifier. If I were a first level monk, using a monks weapon of quarterstaff, with the TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING FEAT purchased as my first level character feat, I believe the bonuses would look like this:

First FOB: -3 (+1 BAB Monk using FOB, -2 TWF special action w/ TWF Feat, -2 FOB)
Second FOB: -3 (+1 BAB Monk using FOB, -2 TWF special action w/ TWF Feat, -2 FOB)
Only TWF: -2 (-2 TWF special action w/ TWF Feat)

It is not double penalty reduction because, FLURRY OF BLOWS supplies the first penalty, and TWO-WEAPON FIGHT FEAT supplies the second penalty. If anything I am over penalizing my self on the first example, as if FLURRY OF makes it as if the The TWF penalty should only be -2 for a -4/-4/-2 attack.

Thank you for you response.

DM BLAKE:

TWO WEAPON FIGHTING is in the Combat chapter, as you said, on page 202. It is under the heading of SPECIAL ATTACKS, which starts on page 197. The description for SPECIAL ATTACKS states: Some of these special attacks can be made as part of another action (such as an attack) or as an attack of opportunity. Under that heading, TWO WEAPON FIGHTING states: if you wield a second weapon in you off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon.

If I were to make TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING special attack as part of another action (such as an attack: like FLURRY OF BLOWS), I would be adding an additional attack action, made at a -10 to attack, to the two attacks gained in FLURRY OF BLOWS, now made at a -8(-2-6)/-8(-2-6).

FLURRY OF BLOWS is a full-ATTACK action, but and attack none the less, and there for applicable to the description of special attacks. TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING special attack is not listed as a full-ATTACK action, but a character cannot gain extra attacks unless performing a full-Attack action: like FLURRY OF BLOWS.

Please write again if there is any confusion with my answer.

First off, thank you for responding.

Kryzbyn:
FLURRY OF BLOWS does not offer a second attack with the off hand. From the Core book (pg57): When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon as if using the TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING FEAT. I believe any combinations includes a prime hand+off hand hit, a prime hand+kick, a prime hand+prime hand. If I wanted to get technical, I could say the first of FOB attack is the off-hand, the second FOB attack is the prime hand, and the TWF attack would be the off hand. Legally, interpreting the phrase "any combination" could include off hand+off hand for FLURRY OF BLOWS and an additional off hand attack for TWF. FLURRY OF BLOWS does not mention the off hand at all.

Skylance4:
The core Book reads (pg57):When doing so he may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon as if using the TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING FEAT. Not TWO WEAPON FIGHTING. FLURRY OF BLOWS only mentions the FEAT, which as we agree, does not award the additional attack. TWO WEAPON FIGHT special attack awards an additional attack as well, and is not mentioned in FLURRY OF BLOWS description. It says "as if using the TWO WEAPON FIGHT FEAT", it does not say "as if using TWO WEAPON FIGHTING." Two different things.

Again, thank you for your comments.

Two weapon fighting the feat or the action, Skylancer4, you didn't specify. The monk's extraordinary ability says that it functions as if the monk is using the TWO WEAPON FIGHTING FEAT. The feat is not the thing which gives permission to fight with two weapons, it is just a reduction of penalties. The action of TWO WEAPON FIGHTING special action does not say you need the feat. It does say that if you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you get one extra attack per round with that weapon.

The FLURRY OF BLOWS is not the two weapon fighting special attack. A character who performs the FLURRY OF BLOWS is not two weapon fighting, regardless of the benefits it rewards. Using an ability that awards the penalty reduction that the TWO WEAPON FIGHTING FEAT rewards, does not mean that the character is using the TWO WEAPON FIGHTING special attack.

Please, do not confuse the TWF special attack with the TWF Feat. They are two seperate things and one does not prevent the other from happening. Remember, The TWO WEAPON FIGHTING FEAT does not give you extra attacks, the special attack awards the extra attack.

Sorry to double post, but I also see no where does it say that different abilities that have similar functions cannot be used together. Using the term "as if using" does not translate, to me, to mean "is using". If it was the same ability they should have just said that the monk gets the TWO WEAPON FEAT and call it a day.

The TWO WEAPON FEAT is a feat, not an action. Using TWO WEAPON FIGHTING is an action, that does not need the feat to accomplish. TWO WEAPON FIGHTING is a special action which can be combined with other actions, such as, but not limited to, FLURRY OF BLOWS.

If it acts like the FEAT, it doesn't mean it is acting like the ACTION.

Not to troll, but just repeating. You can perform TWO WEAPON FIGHTING without the TWO WEAPON FEAT.

I am sorry for resurrecting this but it has just entered into relevance in my game.

I am not convinced that the phrase "as if using two weapon fighting" used in the FLURRY OF BLOWS negates the use of TWO WEAPON FIGHTING in addition to FLURRY OF BLOWS. FLURRY OF BLOWS (pg 57)is an (ex) extraordinary ability which features rules similar to, but not exactly like TWO WEAPON FIGHTING. TWO WEAPON FIGHTING (pg 202)is a "special attack", which can be made as a part of another action, that if you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you get one extra attack per round with that weapon.

My major argument is, no matter how similar two aspects of the game, TWO WEAPON FIGHTING and FLURRY OF BLOWS are not the same ability/action, and therefore their bonuses (in this case extra attacks) are stack-able.

This argument only holds merit with rules as written. I could house rule the interaction of these two aspects however I choose. But I interested in the OFFICIAL RULING in this matter. The Core Rule Book gives no definitive ruling as to how many extra attacks stack, nor how they don't stack. So, not meaning insult, but I am looking for an official member of the Pathfinder publishing staff to give a answer to: Can FLURRY OF BLOWS and TWO WEAPON FIGHTING be used in the same attack round? And if so, what are the bonuses of the combined features, before BAB, STRENGTH, Etc.

Other facts that may weight in:

One is a "special attack" and one is an "extraordinary ability". This categorically separates them into two different application of the rules, and thus does not automatically cancel each other out.

A monk only has not "off" hand when unarmed. Putting a weapon in a hand of a monk makes the monk possess an "off" hand.

TWO WEAPON FIGHTING does not claim to use a full-attack, it just offers and extra attack. The MULTIPLE ATTACKS (pg 184) states a character who can make more than one attack per round must use the full-attack action in order to get more than one attack. FLURRY OF BLOWS is already a full-attack action, and TWO WEAPON FIGHTING is a special attack that augments it. (pg 197 and 202)

Getting an official ruling will not ruin my fun for the game, but i need to tell my player whether or not I am enacting a house rule, and the book, and the arguments I found on this site, are just not clear or compelling enough.

And please, If you quote a rule, please notate the page or document it came from. I am looking for an official ruling. Thank you for your patience, time, and consideration.