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So i was thinking on how is it possible to make a magical farm to produce crops (say near Kaer Maga). Produce Food and Water is not a good option as that food is not really tasty and you want to sell it:)
So you will need something with permanent Daylight spell (goes to something like 45000gp in crafting 1!!! item as there is no mention of this spell in permanency). Ok let's assume it's good for only half a day (half the price) and can make A LOT of light for a pretty big field (10 acre=400ar). Then some items of create water cantrip to feed it - but compared to daylight item it's cheap. All in all it will give us 50kgp. Then you try to sell it. You get say 500kg of potato from 1 ar - that's 200tonnes of potato in a year. So if 1kg of potato is 1 silver coin then you get 20000gp a year minus taxes, wages and all other things - you can actually go to profit in 3-4 years. All in all seems balanced but it is good only if daylight item can get you this much output of light. Am i missing something here? Opinions?
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Continual Daylight probably won't do any good. High School science told me that a lot of plants rely on a day-night cycle to determine pollination in most cases.
The big issue with farming is less light then it is temperature, irrigation and pest avoidance.
A druid would be invaluable with his control weather and anti-vermin barrier spells for that, but the ability to keep them up 24/7 is tricky, as is the fact the 'vermin' aren't always strictly Pathfinder /vermin./ You're talking shreds, moles, mice and the like in addition to weevils, locusts, aphids and so on. And of course it being Pathfinder, Ankhegs, Giant Slugs, Peshy's, Nixies, Demonic Animate Scarecrows..
Also you're going to want to set up a fallow system or your produce will rapidly decrease in quality. This requires knowledge nature checks I'd imagine to know which plants remove which nutrients from the soil and which ones replenish it.
The irony is a spellcaster can assist a farmer a lot, the problem is a spellcaster's spells generally don't assist as a lot of farming occurs in the 'long term' stage.
I can definately see magic assisting with plowing, pest maintenance and the like. But unless they have something like 'maintain appropriate hydration' or 'make sure temperature scale stays ideal' they'll probably have trouble. And the mages capable of casting control weather or the like, probably aren't goign to want to sit on McGillicutty's farm all day on the stoop watching the corn grow.
Enlarge on livestock sounds good too, but they'd revert when butchered so its of dubious use. Its debatable whether you can get more milk out of an enlarged cow.
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Cloudkill is the ultimate vermin control in this situation.
So, is this an attempt to create some interesting concept for a campaign?
Or is this something you are suggesting a Player Character would do?
Because no matter how good you get at farming, I'm pretty sure beating a dragon to death and stealing his treasure hoard is going to be more profitable.
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So, is this an attempt to create some interesting concept for a campaign?
Or is this something you are suggesting a Player Character would do?
Because no matter how good you get at farming, I'm pretty sure beating a dragon to death and stealing his treasure hoard is going to be more profitable.
But immensely harder
But immensely harderSo, is this an attempt to create some interesting concept for a campaign?
Or is this something you are suggesting a Player Character would do?
Because no matter how good you get at farming, I'm pretty sure beating a dragon to death and stealing his treasure hoard is going to be more profitable.
Mebbe so, but I originally signed up to play "Dungeons and Dragons" not "Corn and Locusts".
But play how you like. If you want to play a farmer instead of a mythic warrior, more power to you.
(Although I suspect that in the end the goal here is to have all this "farming" done outside of game time so that the character just gains the benefit of the gold which is then used to go out and adventure anyway.)
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I would imagine the most effective way to do this is with the Create Demiplane spell.
It deals with all your temperature/daylight/weather/vermin problems automatically.
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I would imagine the most effective way to do this is with the Create Demiplane spell.
It deals with all your temperature/daylight/weather/vermin problems automatically.
+1 this. Plus, unless you use construct labour, it makes "commuting" interesting for your workers.
Peasant: "Going to work now, dear. See you tonight."
Grabs his hoe, climbs onto the back of a waiting Nightmare and flashes of into the sky. Wife waves briefly, then turns to her washing with a sigh.
True, but your profession skill represents not goods produced but money earned. So you don't have to worry about the half-price bit.
I was just reading City of Strangers actually and thought that a city with a lot of spellcasters like Kaer Maga and not enought soil can actually manage to lower its dependancy on food supplies from trade by building an actual magic farm. So it is a niche for a player (out of adventure of course) to get money and influence. Also it is a good thing for other campaigns for the future:)
Druid is the ultimate thing for farming, but it really is nit profitable enough for him. So i was thinking more on the line of magical items and tools to make farm working with non-wizard workers.
500kg of potato from 1 ar is what i found in the net (i am not really good with acres - i prefer "hundreads" as we call ar's in my country) and its very good thing to grow if you have limited land. Of course it should involve nature check to understand that nutrients you should add to soil and alchemist to produce it:) I guess it will be not that expensive, though i am not sure - i've never seen anything of this kind in pricing sections of pathfinder:)
Also the farm itself would be multystory building with a roof - hence use of daylight item (which will work 12 hours a day.... or 16... maybe make it a command word to turn on and off), with soil in the fields... well just like modern greenhouses actually. Because Kaer Maga doesn't have any good soil there anyway. Make water to this soil with a constant/command word create water cantrip item which will give water to a system of pipes to distribute it evenly (we have a lot of gnomes who can make this technological innovation work).
PS Also this has a lot to do with the fact that i bought some land in country and going to build a house there in RL so my thinking of late is kind of turned to all the uses a land can get, so i think about such things even in Pathfinder:)
I'd say ask the DM about it. One probably wouldn't be enough. It only shed bright light in a 60ft radius after all.
However, daylight seems like a very logical spell for permanency. Probably go with the 5,000gp cost. It does have a fairly long duration after all. Just place one on each level and cover the source object at night to maintain the regular cycle.
Gust of wind provides a nice indoor source of air circulation and wind power. The create water item should do nicely. Probably get one with a higher caster level, say level two or three, just for convenience sake. It's nice not having to keep tapping the button repeatedly.
The real secret for magical farming is to use a permanent wall of fire, and possibly water creating items, to effectively make heated green-houses and luxury spas a-la icelandic style on the path of Aganhei.
Traveling to Tian Xia? Why camp in the frozen wilderness when you can stay in one of our many luxurious locations? Constructed of stone and iron, and using the latest is steam technology, we guarantee a safe and relaxing stay as you journey to Dragon Empires.
If we're talking magic here, couldn't the plants themselves be altered such that they no longer require sunlight? Perhaps cross-breed them with fungi. If we can have owl bears, why not mushroom berries? This might not appeal to most druids, but it's the kind of thing a worshiper of Nethys would really get into. Sure, some of these plants might be carnivorous, but that's just to help with pest control. Then instead of having to build up, you can have underground caverns.
Make plants that get energy from heat/fire? Just trying to think outside the box since this is magic farming. The Create Demiplane concept works very well for the idea of a magical farm, but tending magically altered plants would be easier for non-casters, if that's what OP is ultimately looking for. Not saying I'm right/superior, just explaining my train of thought. Not really sure about the in-game mechanics of creating a new plant species, though...
Building even 3-5 story farm is easier than going to caverns beneath Kaer Maga:) You will be alive with building at least:) Also why change plants if you can make a daylight spell in the cave:)? I doubt those plants would be good and nutrient in fungi form - ater all the level of energy absorption is lower and so it will take bigger fields to yield same crop.
And demiplane is a little bit too high level i think.
Produce Food and Water is not a good option as that food is not really tasty and you want to sell it:)
It can chill, warm, or flavor 1 pound of nonliving material.
Tadaa!
It is not permanent as i recall
In theory straight economics would tell the spellcasters of Kaer Maga to specialize in crafting and spellcasting, and trade what they produce for food (from farmers who specialize in that).
That said, one of the major conceits of one of the settings I'm working on is the use of magic in some of the roles we use technology for. (My big example is that the society is only in the iron age because they're using magic to smelt iron; technologically they're still in the bronze age.) I've given some thought to how that setting would support farming. The biggest one is that the empire has the resources to command daily control weather spells to ensure suitable weather for farming; perhaps even extra harvests. No droughts, no flooding, and so on. Plus pleasant weather for everyone... probably light rain at night and none during the day, and so on.
In a more Golarion sense, perhaps they might construct a multi-tiered greenhouse, with magical lighting (at least for when it is cloudy), and create water ensuring an adequate and appropriate water supply. Build up instead of across, stabilize effective weather, and use magic to assist the workers directly; perhaps constructs, or else spell effects providing morale or competence bonuses to skills within the area. This also helps protect against pests, who cannot easily get into the greenhouse.
And in a classic D&D sense, let the experts engineer superplants, which, ideally, require a shorter growing season, and provide more nutrients. Perhaps magically enriched soil.
Isn't using the trap creation rules ideal for this sort of thing? Just create a trap that activates repel vermin whenever vermin wonder into the area. Create a trap that uses create water whenever something moves, such as a plant blowing in the wind. Create a trap with...
You get the idea. Most such "beneficial traps" are far cheaper than their wondrous item counterparts.
Isn't using the trap creation rules ideal for this sort of thing? Just create a trap that activates repel vermin whenever vermin wonder into the area. Create a trap that uses create water whenever something moves, such as a plant blowing in the wind. Create a trap with...
You get the idea. Most such "beneficial traps" are far cheaper than their wondrous item counterparts.
You could simulate irrigation with this as well, as well as other neat effects.
Consider also golems as farmer/scarecrows. Perhaps clockwork farmers?
Demiplane is the method I myself use. One of my epic level characters background is that he's a chef, and in addition to having his mansion in a demiplane, he has a lot of farmland that he uses for the growing of rare spices and other ingredients.
So instead of having to travel to that one frozen mountaintop to get that rare mushroom that only grows in this one specific ice cave every time I want to use that mushroom for something, I just make that journey once, then recreate the location in my demiplane and plant the stupid thing there.
I don't really resell any of the stuff I grow, but I imagine that selling some kind of super rare truffles is more valuable than selling generic crops.
Create Demiplane really is the way to go. Rather than selling tools, which doesn't really work, you're leasing land. As long as the leases pay enough to keep expanding and permanency-ing you can keep expanding your farm indefinitely. Use (permanent) gate for access and any tenant can walk to or from the farm without your direct assistance.
Or, as someone else mentioned, there's always construct workers, which you can probably afford if you can afford to create a permanent demiplane.
I would imagine the most effective way to do this is with the Create Demiplane spell.
It deals with all your temperature/daylight/weather/vermin problems automatically.
plus you can put the portal in the middle of the city. No field required.
plus you can put the portal in the middle of the city.I would imagine the most effective way to do this is with the Create Demiplane spell.
It deals with all your temperature/daylight/weather/vermin problems automatically.
My first thought was "magical grow-op"!
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I'm entirely sure about the in-game mechanics for creating new plant species. They don't exist.
Create Demiplane really is the way to go. Rather than selling tools, which doesn't really work, you're leasing land. As long as the leases pay enough to keep expanding and permanency-ing you can keep expanding your farm indefinitely. Use (permanent) gate for access and any tenant can walk to or from the farm without your direct assistance.
Create Demipane, greater area of effect: 20 10-ft. cubes/level = 200'*200' with a 10' ceiling at 20th level. So 40,000 square feet.
It last 20 days unless made permanent at a cost of 22,500 gp.A acre is 4,840 square yards, 43,560 square feet.
So at 20th level you can make about one acre of extremely good farming land with one casting and add a permanent portal linking it to your original location. It can be done efficiently but it require a really high level caster.
Bountiful: Your demiplane gains a thriving natural ecology, with streams, ponds, waterfalls, and plants. The demiplane provides enough plant-based food (nuts, grains, fruit, fungi, and so on) to support one Medium creature for every 10-foot cube of the demiplane. The demiplane does not have any animals unless you transport them there, but the ecology can sustain itself for as long as the demiplane exists without requiring watering, gardening, pollination, and so on, and dead organic material decays and returns to the soil in the normal manner. If your demiplane has ambient light, these plants are normal, familiar surface plants; if it is a realm of twilight or darkness, these plants are fungi and other plants adapted to near-darkness or underground locations.
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The end result of geenenginering plants:
When Geb’s magic despoiled his kingdom, the archmage Nex enlisted the renegade druid Ghorus to create a form of plant life that could survive in the blighted wasteland and sustain his starving people. Eventually, the plants evolved sentience and ambulatory bodies mimicking the appearance of their human farmers and consumers.
The "delicious" trait for a playable race is .... well delicious.
Delicious (Ex) Ghorans take a –2 penalty on Escape Artist and combat maneuver checks made to escape a grapple against any creature that has a bite attack with the grab ability.
Decanter of Endless Water. Unseen Servants with buckets sized to weigh just under 20 lbs when full.
Decanter of Endless Water. Unseen Servants with buckets sized to weigh just under 20 lbs when full.
Or just the Decanter and some irrigation.
This is awesome! I may have to add agricultural magitech to my thread. I always wondered that if adventurers spend absurd amounts of money on glowing swords and impenetrable armor and personal items that do well, everything, super rich metropoli with arcane-endowment would logically want to magically improve their civilizations a la final fantasy. I could totally see magically upkept farms in constrained spaces both for efficiency with growing populations, and defending against enemy siege.
It may not be the purview of adventurers, but it adds so much flavor to a campaign world with high level play.
And the traps idea is brilliant!
the traps rules are pure cheese and rules abuse.
Consider that you can make a trap that casts CLW anytime someone passes through it and touches it. Then consider that a ring that does the same thing would be in excess of 200,000 gp. (5+ avg hp healing/rd). A magical fountain that dispensed such healing would likely be an artifact.
A decanter will provide only so much water...probably less then what is needed to irrigate a square mile. I've seen others work out the math on it, and 30 gallons/rd really isn't all that much. that's 300 gallons/minute, 18k/hr, and 432,000/day.
An Acre-foot is 326,000 gallons of water (one acre one foot deep).
So, you've got 1.325 acre feet/day of water. Now let's say you want to give your fields a half inch of rain every other day, so you multiply by 48.
You can cover roughly 64 acres with two days output of the decanter. That's 1/10 of a square mile (sq mile = 640 acres).
How long would it take you to earn back the 9k gp for the decanter, I don't know. But you also have to put in an irrigation system that evenly disperses the water, which probably won't be cheap, either...likely some sort of extremely large construct on wheels using stone shaped pipes to sprinkle water down during the night hours. THen you need to pay the labor to harvest it.
You'd probably do better off making large greenhouses with specialty crops you can sell all year, and just fertilize them with human waste. they do it with tomatoes nowadays.
==Aelryinth
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(Although I suspect that in the end the goal here is to have all this "farming" done outside of game time so that the character just gains the benefit of the gold which is then used to go out and adventure anyway.)
Seems pointless, since WBL fairies will haul away any excess, and deliver any shortage.
I'm not sure if they intended traps to do the entire mechanic of the farm itself, but I really like the idea of magical traps having the role of keeping pests and trespassers clear alike. That would greatly enhance the efficiency of the crop yield, and reduce much of the labor to tend to that aspect.
It really to me boils down to the level of scale you're looking for. I like the demiplane concept, but shame on any GM where caster level 20's are easily located and have nothing better to do with their time and magic.
Mundane greenhouses could work, but the efficiency on actually feeding a magically-inclined city is questionable. Urban gardening for all its hip and eco-friendly supplemental concept, certainly doesn't replace the need for vast agricultural swaths in a society.
Animated object labor seems like an option for farm-style equipment, unseen servants assigned to zones might be an even cheaper option.
There is the potential of elemental labor as well. If it's just enhancing natural farmland, control weather can be a boon, as could plant growth and plenty druid options like were already mentioned. For things more exotic like the interior of buildings like you described, the daylight alternating item is a good idea. I could also see deliberate use of summon swarm for pollination efforts.
Periodically dispersed permanent items of create water could serve as a sprinkler system through piping and whatnot, and considering the scale the farm was meant to feed, the costs might not be unbearable. A 1/day use of create water could cover so much yield a day, so you could easily assign 1 renewable item to so many squares of yield. Although a localized, single larger item of control weather inside might be more efficient.
Custom magic item creation rules could be a great start.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/magicItemCreation.html
Seems like something to consider if the adventurers were running their own town. They'd hire druids, wizards, and folk that come to live there to magically enhance their crops.
I'd imagine there would be flyers going around about "organic" farms that don
t use spells like Cloudkill to manage pests.
The Daylight spell says "Despite it's name, this spell is not the equivalent of daylight for the purposes of creatures that are damaged or destroyed by such light." So it's like a floodlight, not a sun lamp, and it might not help plants.
You might hire a drow to wrangle spiders. Spiders eat bugs.
If we're talking magic here, couldn't the plants themselves be altered such that they no longer require sunlight? Perhaps cross-breed them with fungi. If we can have owl bears, why not mushroom berries? This might not appeal to most druids, but it's the kind of thing a worshiper of Nethys would really get into. Sure, some of these plants might be carnivorous, but that's just to help with pest control. Then instead of having to build up, you can have underground caverns.
That reminds me of the Mushroom Apotheosis spell from Rise of the Drow.
It's a 9th level Druid spell that instantly creates a 250 foot radius mushroom garden.
Most of the mushrooms have magical properties and some aren't so friendly...
I'm surprised no one offered up a create food and water followed by a prestidigitation to enhance the flavor, seems the simplest and easiest.
Or my favorite now would be All Food + Prestidigitation, "hey man you've got to come try this rock its delicious, no way is it better than this stick?"
In real life there's LED farming which is akin to what you're suggesting here.
I once suggested a spell for creating soil that might be useful. I think that like other folks pointed out Druids would likely be best for helping out here. In conjunction with arcane casters, there could be a store of some sort to provide produce in a city. If this is cheap enough or easy enough, people could technically grow their own food. Certainly, if someone could make a goodberry plant that always grows goodberries there would be some interesting changes.
But edible tasty rocks!
I once suggested a spell for creating soil that might be useful.
There is also the Bag of Everlasting Dung.
I'm thinking of creating the Pathfinder version of Farmville. I've been depressed since Facebook blocked me because I would not send them a scan of my photo ID. A farmer(normally an npc) could grow crops, pay taxes,(in barter form giving crops and livestock to the king), sell crops to get coins, hire adventurers to send after the pesky monsters.
I was thinking if I wrote up a formula for healing potions, an adept could brew potions, to hire an adventuring party.
Isn't using the trap creation rules ideal for this sort of thing? Just create a trap that activates repel vermin whenever vermin wonder into the area. Create a trap that uses create water whenever something moves, such as a plant blowing in the wind. Create a trap with...
You get the idea. Most such "beneficial traps" are far cheaper than their wondrous item counterparts.
The trap mechanic is not meant to create dodges like this.
Standard traps are one shot. Repeating traps are harder or more expensive, right?