Daily Monk Question: Sacred Mountain


Advice


Hey All,

First, please not "MONK R SUNK" flaming. I have know that the class doesn't get anything nice at all, and the stuff that we do have is only so-so... BUT, I'm going to try anyways.

We have a group that is all spellcasters and doing just fine right now, but they are looking for a tank now that they are moving up in level. That's me. I'm not all that interested in the traditional tanks and this group is more about fun than anything else. My roll really is to keep them occupied and be able to survive awhile. That means AC (and DR) are my goals over straight DPS.

Right now, I am thinking about a pure Oread Sacred Mountain Monk with Crane Style, but here is my questions: The archetype grants a +1 NA bonus at 2nd level, and Oread have the option to gain a racial +1 NA as a trait. Do these two things stack at all? I like the idea of the resilient, can't be moved stone monk, but I want to maximize the benefits that I get from playing an interesting race.

If not, then I am considering going Suli, which comes with the elemental assault and higher CHA, both of which I would enjoy playing. I would also up my DPS (which even maxed out will look like chump change compared with the Magus).

Otherwise, suggestions? I will be joining the game at either 7 or 8. We have magic up the wazoo, so getting hulked out with buffs from them will be no problem.


Another option I was considering: Duergar Monk.


Quote:
Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature's existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor's overall bonus to Armor Class.

=/

Still, I doubt you'll find a race more tailor made for Monk (stats-wise anyway) than Oread, and -2 Int always hurts. Plus you can always just not take the alternate trait with the +1 NA and keep the regular old Acid Resistance 5. Also it'd definitely be in your best interest to swap out Earth Affinity with either Crystalline Form or Stone in the Blood.

And Sacred Mountain has some nice boosts even if you don't specifically benefit from the Natural Armor bonus. I'm playing a level 8 Master of Many Styles/Sacred Mountain Monk (with a 3 level dip into Brawler for a little extra OOMPH after a rebuild because I dun goofed on some Feat choices early on) and it's pretty nice.


On the natural armor, no they don't stack.

I don't believe you can traditionally tank as a monk, except possibly sohei and zen archer. The lack of aggro mechanics other than doing so much damage your opponents want you to die first basically kills defensive builds. Crane style is for one on one duels.

There is one way to force an opponent to attack you and only you: grappling. I recommend a Tetori. You will be able to pin an enemy in one round and at level 9 you will take rapid grappler and be able to tie up an opponent in one round. Carry a lot of rope.

With so many wizard friends I recommend a Tetori. Your best buff is Beast Shape II or higher for something big with grab and rake (dire tiger is the best under Beast Shape II. Allosaurus is the best under Beast Shape III. I haven't looked at Beast Shape IV because druids don't get it. Or just a big monstrous humanoid with the Monstrous Physique line.

When using grab, either with a ki point or on a beast shape form that has it natively, announce a full attack and then make the attack roll and the free action grapple check with grab, then cancel the full attack if the grab succeeds and use greater grapple to maintain the grapple. (Arrow draw as a free rather than non-action proves you can perform free actions mid-full-attack.)


I like Tetori, but for a couple of reasons I still hesitant on going that route because it's not compatible with the Sacred Mountain build. However, you've sold me on the grapple option and I want buff that up with my regular feats. Improved Grapple, Greater Grapple, and (next level) Rapid Grapple, but what else?

I noticed that Snapping Turtle has one that I am interested in, but how to read the requirements? (Snapping Turtle Style, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +3) or (monk level 3rd.) or (Snapping Turtle Style, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike,) (base attack bonus +3 or monk level 3rd.)?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

-Amulet of Mighty fists (impact)
-Animal Aspect (Gorilla)
-Lead blades
-Enlarge Person
-Strong Jaw
-Monks Robe

Base damage = 2D6 (because of Monk's robe)
+ AoMF = 2D8
+ AA(G)= 4D6
+ LB = 4D8
+ EP = 6D6
+ SJ = 12D6

And the damage keeps increasing every time your damage goes up as a monk. At lvl 20 you can Deal 24D8


@Ha No: It's either or. You either need a BaB of +3, or 3 Monk levels.


You really need greater grapple as a bonus feat to make a grapple monk work well. Otherwise the delay is just too great. That means Tetori or Maneuver Master and neither is compatible with Sacred Mountain. Greater Grapple is really important and you won't get it until level 9 normally because of the BAB requirement. Rapid Grappler is what turns you into a one round tie up machine, which you'll want to be able to deal with threats quickly. That will wait until level 11 on any other monk archetype.

If you use an Oread with natural armor that doesn't stack with Sacred Mountain and if you go into Turtle Style the shield bonus Sacred Mountain gives at level 5 is also wasted.

@crownless
Those don't stack. You get one polymorph and both enlarge person and animal aspect are polymorphs and by James Jacob's ruling you get one non-polymorph effective size booster. And lead blades is not available since it's ranger only. While they're technically casters an "all caster" party in need of a tank means no ranger. Strong Jaw may not be either since it's druidic. We don't know who's in the party, just that they're all non-tanky casters. And lastly the amulet of mighty fists has a +5 cap and is expensive so you need to put nothing but plain +1 enhancements on it if you're going to penetrate varied DR at higher levels.


If you want to tank, consider the Maneuver Master archetype (along with Monk of the Sacred Mountain) and taking a level of Fighter or Paladin so you can wear heavy armor. You'll lose wis to AC and fast movement, but can wear full plate and a heavy shield.

Flurry of Maneuvers is also awesome for five reasons:

1) You do not need to use a monk weapon for your flurry.
2) Any non-maneuver attacks you make while flurrying don't take the -2 flurrying penalty.
3) You can make a standard action maneuver (such as grapple) as part of a full attack.
4) You can take Improved [Combat Maneuver] feats (without pre-reqs) as 1st and 2nd level bonus feats, which eliminates Combat Expertise as a feat tax and means you can spend stat points elsewhere besides a 13 int.
5) You are awesome at combat maneuvers.


Monks are excellent tanks, even without multiclassing.

Go full on Monk with the Qiggong Archetype+your choice of other archetype. Maximize your AC with Barkskin, Mage Armor from a buddy or wand, and go down the Crane Style feat chain. Your AC is now in the 30's, have fun.

You can also go Monk/Paladin and go into the Champion of Irori PrC to get super saves and some really neat abilities, but that's really for Saves and Smite. If you want to go down that route I suggest Sohei and be a Japanese Style Warrior Monk, but STILL I would suggest going all Crane Style.

As the above poster said Manuevers are great, and for your purposes I'd suggest Trip. You don't really need an archetype for that, but it certainly helps.


Urist The Unstoppable wrote:

No screw multiclassing and Manuever master.

Go full on Monk with the Qiggong Archetype+your choice of other archetype. Maximize your AC with Barkskin, Mage Armor from a buddy or wand, and go down the Crane Style feat chain. Your AC is now in the 30's, have fun.

Yeah but you are burning resources and feats to do all this, not to mention you are vulnerable to dispel. Wearing full plate takes no resources, and you can still use Barkskin and Crane Style if you wish.

Granted, your touch AC will be bad for a monk, but your regular AC will be great. And you don't need to pump Wis as much as a normal monk so you reduce the MAD-ness.


RumpinRufus wrote:
If you want to tank, consider the Maneuver Master archetype (along with Monk of the Sacred Mountain)

Can't be done. They both replace Slow Fall.


Atarlost wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:
If you want to tank, consider the Maneuver Master archetype (along with Monk of the Sacred Mountain)
Can't be done. They both replace Slow Fall.

Hmm, good catch. Not sure why I thought that was a valid combination.


Well also you forgot that Monks lose Flurry in armor too, which kinda ruins the whole build really.


Rynjin wrote:
Well also you forgot that Monks lose Flurry in armor too, which kinda ruins the whole build really.

Monks lose Flurry of Blows when they wear armor, but a Maneuver Master can still make a Flurry of Maneuvers in a shield and heavy armor (and with a greatsword or whatever other weapon you would like.)


Where does it say that?

So far as I can tell, Flurry of Maneuvers works exactly the same as FoB except you can do maneuvers with it. There's no text that says otherwise, and I don't see a FAQ/Errata anywhere that says that.

Coupled with the fact that they ruled (unofficially) Sohei couldn't Flurry in armor, and he actually gets Light Armor proficiency, I think you may be wrong there.


The prohibition on flurry in armor is in the proficiencies section. It says "flurry of blows." Maneuver master does not alter or replace the monk's proficiencies so they're still prohibited from using "flurry of blows" in armor. "Flurry of maneuvers" is no more "flurry of blows" than "maneuver training" is. It's a different ability with a different name.


Rynjin wrote:

Where does it say that?

So far as I can tell, Flurry of Maneuvers works exactly the same as FoB except you can do maneuvers with it. There's no text that says otherwise, and I don't see a FAQ/Errata anywhere that says that.

Coupled with the fact that they ruled (unofficially) Sohei couldn't Flurry in armor, and he actually gets Light Armor proficiency, I think you may be wrong there.

Flurry of Maneuvers doesn't reference Flurry of Blows at all except to say that it replaces it. As Atarlost mentioned, monks can't use Flurry of Blows in armor, but nothing prevents them from using Flurry of Maneuvers.

It's also not correct to say it "works exactly the same as FoB except you can do maneuvers." Firstly, when you use FoM only your maneuvers take a -2 whereas with FoB all your attacks take a -2. However, when you use FoM you get to use monk level instead of BAB only on maneuvers instead of on all your attacks.

I consider it likely that the armor thing was an oversight, but by RAW at least you can use FoM in armor (and I haven't seen any dev comments regarding this.)


Wait why doesnt the sacred mountain and the racial natural armor bonus stack? The racial trait specifically says its a racial bonus to natural armor. Sacred mount is a natural armor bonus. They definately stack.

Granite Skin: Rocky growths cover the skin of oreads with this racial trait. They gain a +1 racial bonus to natural armor. This racial trait replaces energy resistance.

Iron Monk (Ex): At 2nd level, a monk of the sacred mountain gains Toughness as a bonus feat. In addition, the monk gains a +1 natural armor bonus. This ability replaces evasion.


Because Natural Armor bonuses don't stack, only enhancement bonuses to Natural Armor stack.

Also, Rufus: YOU BETRAYED THE RAW.


Kolokotroni might be right. A racial bonus is a type of bonus.

But it's still not worth giving up earlier access to greater grapple and rapid grappler by using an archetype that conflicts with tetori and maneuver master.

Unless you're going to do the other kind of monk, but the other kind of monk is more a mobile striker than a tank and by far does best using a weapon.


Hey Everyone,

Thanks for all the input. I really do appreciate all of the input, although I'm left completely torn as what to do. :) Both the Tetori and the Maneuver Master are brutal, perhaps even with the Maneuver Master being a little bit moresy.. Armored monk... that is... hilarious.

I think I'm just going to have to build both characters and look at them side by side. :)

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Daily Monk Question: Sacred Mountain All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.