Hello all, I'm running a RotR campaign pretty soon and I'd like some advice considering I've not run an AP before and it's been a while since I've run a game too.
My Players:
20pts buy, average wealth, Core rulebook + traits
- Druid - Player has experience with various tabletop RPGs and other D20 systems as GM and player, has used Pathfinder system once or twice.
- Ranger - Player has experience with a couple of systems.
- Wizard - Experience with a couple of other systems, GM & player.
- Rogue - Relative newcomer.
- Paladin - Experience with other systems, played 3.5 a few years ago.
As you can see, the majority are new/inexperienced PF players, so I'd like a quick check on how well they're likely to perform throughout the AP, or at least Burnt Offerings.
Should I be nudging the CR of encounters up since there's 5 of them or should I ride out the first few as they're written to let them get used to the system?
Here's a bit of the experience I've had in my current RotRL group:
GM: Experienced
5 Players
Wizard - Less than a year of Pathfinder Experience (me)
Cavalier - Less than a year of Pathfinder Experience
Paladin - First Pathfinder Experience
Cleric - 2nd Pathfinder Experience
Rogue - Longtime Pathfinder player/roleplayer
20 point buy, GM gave us twice our hit die at level 1 plus an extra feat.
All that being said, we absolutely carved through the first section with delightfully enjoyable ease. Our GM up'd the CRs, but even still, there were very few moments of any actual threat to the well being of our characters, and most of those were at levels 1 and 2.
After the 1st section completed, we are all at level 4.
My advice? Yeah, it's made for 4 players. Up the CR, keep them at the rest of the items you've imposed.
If you don't want to adjust all the monsters, fix the players.
Aps are designed for four players with a 15 pt buy. I think your players are going to stomp through it.
I played through this as a player, and with a 20 pt buy, it was a bit dull. There were only a few challenging encounters, and we made it through the first three books.
With five players, make it a 15 pt buy. They're not going to be perfect players, but you're probably not a killer GM, so it balances out.
In just about all the APs we've run there have hardly been issues with most encounters. Now that being said there are a few encounters that can be killers in each AP. Having an extra body (as has been mentioned the APs tend to be tuned to a particular point buy and number of party members) can mitigate that somewhat.
Okay, I think I'll be using the encounters in Burnt Offerings as a kind of litmus test to assess my players. I've played alongside all bar the Paladin in other games, so I'm at least vaguely aware of their capabilities.
It's a bit too short notice to knock them back to 15pts, but I'll definitely remember next time I run an AP.
The Swallowtail Festival should be an easy one to scale, if they take out the first horde of gobbos in one fell swoop, I can always throw more at them later.
I'll post the results of our first session here, as I'm pretty sure I'll be floundering around, wondering how to keep them challenged in future ;P
yeah I do wish that they would put this somewhere in the books when they print them eithier on the back or in bold somewhere on the first page of the adventure brief.
Something like:
This adventure path is designed for a party of 4 and a GM using the 15 point ability point buy system described in the corebook.
This would really help new GM's see how the adventures are planned so they can compensate.
Since the Rogue is a newcomer, I would recommend working with him on his build to make sure he gives it a decent amount of power. If he builds it poorly, he'll just be way underpowered in combat and it could be a drag for him.
If he doesn't care too much about the combat part of it, this is fine. But you should let him know up front that picking Rogue means he will probably be weak in combat as the price he pays for being skilled out of combat.
Thanks for the advice, all.
Since the Rogue is a newcomer, I would recommend working with him on his build to make sure he gives it a decent amount of power. If he builds it poorly, he'll just be way underpowered in combat and it could be a drag for him.
I've got to take a second look at the character anyway, so I'll double-check they've not put something silly down (I had to fish out a +0STR Composite Longbow earlier - the character has 8STR.)
Here's the unrevised basics, and yes, I know there's no Disable Device in there.
Feats Weapon Finesse
Traits Black Sheep - Aliver "Pillbug" Podiker, Reactionary
Skills
- Acrobatics +5 (+1 jump)
- Appraise +7
- Bluff +6
- Climb -4
- Diplomacy +6
- Disguise +6
- Escape Artist +5
- Fly +1
- Knowledge (local) +8
- Perception +6 (+7 to locate traps)
- Ride +1
- Sense Motive +4
- Sleight of Hand +5
- Stealth +5
- Swim -4
Make sure the players know the rules. I am playing in an AP and the first session I noticed the Bard was adding terrible mods to his check so I asked him if he was adding the +3 for the trained skill, and he was not. Stuff like that and Favored Class tend to me over looked. So try to have a general idea of what should be happening and if it is not then figure out why.
I'm going to have to watch this one, but a lot of the errors when they've been submitting characters to me have been smoothed out by copying them into Hero Lab, so simple mathematical mistakes are going to be minimal (and my fault if they happen at all).
Oh god, that rogue's gonna die.
For one, he should have at least 14 con if he'll be in melee (which I assume he is since he took Weapon Finesse,) or at least 12 if he's focusing on ranged attacks. Having 16 Int as a Rogue is just overkill - you already get so many skill points, that Int doesn't help you at all except for knowledge checks, which are better left to the Wizard anyway since he has them as class skills. Is he dead-set on playing an elf? Because the -2 con really hurts.
With 8 strength, he's really not going to be doing any damage unless he has a flank. Is the ranger melee or ranged? If the ranger is melee, this might be ok, but if the rogue's only flanking buddy is the paladin then he really needs to put more points into strength if he wants to do any kind of damage consistently.
I would recommend a stat array more like this if he wants to play an elf:
strength 14, dexterity 18, constitution 12, intelligence 12, wisdom 10, charisma 10
or as a human/half-elf/half-orc:
strength 14, dexterity 18, constitution 14, intelligence 10, wisdom 10, charisma 10
@RR I'll suggest the new stat array, it's something I wouldn't have spotted as I've never been part of any long term play.
The ranger is a ranged attacker, so yeah, that STR will need bumping. I noticed the group was mostly ranged after the first three joined, so I encouraged the last two players to be more martial classes... I got a Rogue and a Paladin =|
@bfobar It's an amusing idea, but I don't want to pigeonhole the player without giving them the option to change first.
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RotRL initially is not brutal, until you get to Hook Mountain Massacre...then the Giants can ruin a party who don't have enough martial strength.
My suggestions-
•Druid - Player has experience with various tabletop RPGs and other D20 systems as GM and player, has used Pathfinder system once or twice.
(encourage the Druid to take a stong martial animal companion--big cat type. stay away from a wolf. You'll need the damage)
•Ranger - Player has experience with a couple of systems.
(encourage the Ranger to go 2 weapon or sword and board...and not go archery)
•Wizard - Experience with a couple of other systems, GM & player.
(make sure the wizard has access to fireball and other heavy area effect spells early...ie scrolls to learn from)
•Rogue - Relative newcomer.
(Looking at the stat array, the rogue went with...I agree with RumpinRufus comments...however if you get resistance, then encourage the changing of weapon finesse to point blank shot and go the bow avenue. remember a rogue can sneak attack within 30' with a bow)
•Paladin - Experience with other systems, played 3.5 a few years ago.
(make sure the Pally is a tank)
You do realise you've just asked me to rebuild almost my entire party's characters, right? ;)
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well they havent started yet Im assuming and all I see is the ranger needs to be prepared to go to an alernate direction and the rogue needs some nudging.
If they have gone a different direction (all of them)...well You will have to be prepared to augment them with some npc's who can dish out some damage ;) and take a hit
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well thats true. The most important thing is to have fun...and if the party isnt optimized well it still will be fun if the players like their characters *chuckle*
for the record the group I ran was
1. Chelaxian Sorcerer (long time gamer well versed in 3.5 new to Pathfinder)
2. Gnome Fighter going mounted combat specialist with riding dog. player was a very well versed Pathfinder player.
3. Kobold Summoner (New player to both role playing and to Pathfinder)
4. Chelaxian Paladin of Iomedae (not new to gaming new to Pathfinder...far from a min maxer though.)
5. Half-Orc Ninja (relatively new player to pathfinder but not to role playing)
They were healing light, but damage heavy.
They did alright.
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•Ranger - Player has experience with a couple of systems.(encourage the Ranger to go 2 weapon or sword and board...and not go archery)
When my group went through this the archer ranger with giants as his favored enemy absolutely tore through the opposition, but YMMV I suppose.
•Wizard - Experience with a couple of other systems, GM & player.(make sure the wizard has access to fireball and other heavy area effect spells early...ie scrolls to learn from)
•Rogue - Relative newcomer.
(Looking at the stat array, the rogue went with...I agree with RumpinRufus comments...however if you get resistance, then encourage the changing of weapon finesse to point blank shot and go the bow avenue. remember a rogue can sneak attack within 30' with a bow)
Both of these suggestions are bad advice IMO. The relative merits of blaster wizards vs controllers/buffers have been discussed to death here already (spoiler: blasters lose out), and ranged rogues suck hard. I do agree with those who suggest that the GM should allow/encourage the rogue to re-spec for greater combat effectiveness and survivability, however.
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•Ranger - Player has experience with a couple of systems.(encourage the Ranger to go 2 weapon or sword and board...and not go archery)
When my group went through this the archer ranger with giants as his favored enemy absolutely tore through the opposition, but YMMV I suppose.
Both of these suggestions are bad advice IMO. The relative merits of blaster wizards vs controllers/buffers have been discussed to death here already (spoiler: blasters lose out), and ranged rogues suck hard. I do agree with those who suggest that the GM should allow/encourage the rogue to re-spec for greater combat effectiveness and survivability, however.
•Wizard - Experience with a couple of other systems, GM & player.(make sure the wizard has access to fireball and other heavy area effect spells early...ie scrolls to learn from)
•Rogue - Relative newcomer.
(Looking at the stat array, the rogue went with...I agree with RumpinRufus comments...however if you get resistance, then encourage the changing of weapon finesse to point blank shot and go the bow avenue. remember a rogue can sneak attack within 30' with a bow)
opinions vary.
I was looking at the party array and trying to help the GM provide guidance for the players.
Look at it from this angle
I never said the wizard couldnt buff/control...but rather he should have access to some heavy damage spells as well, to soften up the opposition so the Pally isnt facing multiple heavy hitters that are undamaged.
The Ranger with a good dex could still switch hit if he went with two weapons. if he goes archery...he wont switch hit being dex based.
The Rogue with a low con, had beeter stay away from getting hit...thus the suggestion for ranged.
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Hello all, I'm running a RotR campaign pretty soon and I'd like some advice considering I've not run an AP before and it's been a while since I've run a game too.
My Players:
20pts buy, average wealth, Core rulebook + traits
- Druid - Player has experience with various tabletop RPGs and other D20 systems as GM and player, has used Pathfinder system once or twice.
- Ranger - Player has experience with a couple of systems.
- Wizard - Experience with a couple of other systems, GM & player.
- Rogue - Relative newcomer.
- Paladin - Experience with other systems, played 3.5 a few years ago.
As you can see, the majority are new/inexperienced PF players, so I'd like a quick check on how well they're likely to perform throughout the AP, or at least Burnt Offerings.
Should I be nudging the CR of encounters up since there's 5 of them or should I ride out the first few as they're written to let them get used to the system?
In fact going back to your first post...Run the ap as written. Dont nudge it up at all with non-optimized players/characters.. Guage the success and enjoyment after the glass factory...before the dungeon below sandpoint.
"You're a new DM, and your party is for the most part new players. Let them play what they want."
Amen. The only consideration for playing the game 'right' is that everyone has fun. Nothing has to be optimized and nothing needs to be made feeble for RP sakes. Let em roll up guys and go. Don't overthink it. It's a game.
"Roll 3d6 six times. Okay? You see a cave entrance..." It used to be so simple lol.
Thanks yet again everyone. I'm going to show the Rogue player your post, Dukai - it's a lot more informative than anything I could have written.
EDIT: I double-checked the skill bonuses and you're right. It's triggering the right calculations for Know(local) but none of the other class skills. I'm perplexed.
EDIT2: Hero Lab factors in encumberment penalties, I hadn't noticed but the rogue had Medium encumberment penalties at the time, so a max of +3 DEX =/
STR is not the way to go for rouges its all about the sneak attack damage, yes he will have a hard time at low lvs but we need to remember that roughs base damage means little after 3rd lv.
Yes but for a brand-new player, telling them "it's ok that you're useless now, in four months you'll start having fun!" is not a good way to keep them interested.
(Yes, I'm exaggerating and I know combat isn't the whole game and any build can be fun if you play it right but I still think for a new player, they'll tend to have less fun if they're getting 2 damage on a crit.)