RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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My point is this: If a GM (me or anyone else, it doesn't matter) says something is "easy" or "hard", a player (me or anyone else) is well-advised to take that piece of information with a big grain of salt, because "easy" could mean DC 0 or DC 5 or DC 10 or DC 12 or anything in-between (for instance); likewise if a scenario describes what seems like an easy or hard situation (like crossing a wading pool). And the GM should realise this as well, and not be surprised if the players do the "wrong" thing based on that limited information.
I can't tell if you agree with my point or not, since you keep asking whether the GM should explicitly mention DCs or not (an issue I don't feel very strongly about, frankly).
To be honest, I'm not completely averse to sharing DCs and if the player is honestly conflicted about the difference between swimming across a pond with a fountain in it and using a rope to swing across, I'll tell them what the DC is.
I just don't think that should be the default way you interact with chase scenes. It is completely gamist, non-immersive, and narrows the players options.
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I can't tell if you agree with my point or not, since you keep asking whether the GM should explicitly mention DCs or not (an issue I don't feel very strongly about, frankly).To be honest, I'm not completely averse to sharing DCs [..]
Uh...I guess I better bow out here...
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As a player, I hate it when game jargon is injected into the narrative. It totally breaks immersion and encourages meta-gaming, rather than players acting as your character. I think a good GM should simply set the scene and describe obstacles in objective terms. If a player misjudges their character's ability to deal with such obstacles then allow them to learn from the experience and make better calls in the future.
As for chases: I don't believe I've ever played one using the rules described here, but it seems like any GM worth their salt would allow for creative solutions, just like with any other challenge.
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As a player, I hate it when game jargon is injected into the narrative.
As a player I prefer the DM to be streightforward about what is going on. Usually that means using the unambiguous terms that the game has set forth for things. This goes double for PFS where I am likely playing under a DM I am not familiar with and thus playing the little kabuki theater game of trying to disguise the mechanics has the potential to become way more frustrating.
It's not like that is what is literally coming out of the character's mouths in game, it is just the "out-of-game" translation to make mechanical things flow smoother at the table.
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I've played in four games with chases, and each time the chase has been a fun sapping torrent of tedium. I am going to follow the allow any check the player can think of that is vaguely appropriate to bypass the obstacle approach. Add me to the chase scenarios should be labeled so they can be avoided camp.
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It's my experience that chases are great when the GM goes for the abstract, highly-descriptive approach instead of the concrete "these are 30' foot spaces, here are the very-specific obstacles with very-specific ways to get past them" approach.
The players need to be on board, too, as they need to be willing to play along and be abstract and descriptive instead of bludgeoning every obstacle with numbers alone.
-Matt
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So what I think most people are saying is that chase scenes work as long as you mostly ignore the rules. Which, in PFS, we're supposed to not do.
There are other massive problems. In some scenarios being a skill monkey who gets ahead of his group can be a death sentence as you face the BBEG alone for a couple of rounds.
And in at least one scenario the entire chase is essentially irrelevant as the next scene happens in the same way anyways.
I'm definitely in the camp that thinks they should be retired until some good rules are created. The current rules just don't work well, at least in PFS.
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The iconics aren't good at something? *Shocking
Not helpful. If you're going to set the DC "low" because you know most characters aren't good at it, why would you set it so high that the pregens, the ones we give to new players so they can have fun and feel a sense of accomplishment so they will continue playing, can't make the check more than half the time? Dismissing the pregens does not dismiss the problem. Telling us to ignore the rules for the chase and just "play Pathfinder" does not fix the problem.
Developer
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I am hopeful that the recent chase scene in Season 6 where the chase is a party centric event vs individual, becomes more the norm going forward myself.
That format first debuted in a Season 5 scenario, actually, but I'm glad to hear that it's been well-received. I am likely to recommend this to authors for future chases. That said, there might be some situations in which the Gamemastery Guide's chase rules would be a better fit, so I'm not ruling them out, either.
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** spoiler omitted **
I've run the second of those two, twice now, and I LOVE the chase scene in it!
It's dramatic, exciting and has lots of opportunity to ham up the action at pace. I have only two small issues with it as written.1. Considering everyone is basically helping the best person, the DCs are a little easy
2. I breaks down a little if individual members of the party decide to do different things - the emphasis is clearly on everyone doing A together, even if one person is really bad at A and good at B. As long as you're prepared it's not a big deal.
So, individual chase scenes = BAD (IMO). Team chase scenes = Good.
Anyone else hoping for a Pathfinder vs Aspis Consortium team v team chase through the twisting roots and docks of Bloodcove in S7? :)
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I am hopeful that the recent chase scene in Season 6 where the chase is a party centric event vs individual, becomes more the norm going forward myself.That format first debuted in a Season 5 scenario, actually, but I'm glad to hear that it's been well-received. I am likely to recommend this to authors for future chases. That said, there might be some situations in which the Gamemastery Guide's chase rules would be a better fit, so I'm not ruling them out, either.
I wouldn't either hence my "more the norm". Should I ever rise to the level of actual authoring myself, though, I would avoid the GMG style if I could, or notate for my GMs where they can 'bend' things to allow the less skilled to interactively aid their companions. I love chases myself but they frustrate a lot of my playing peers.
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Current chase scenes I am aware of:
3-16: The Midnight Mauler
3-18: The God's Market Gamble
Special: Race for the Runecarved Key
4–01: Rise of the Goblin Guild
5–16: Destiny of the Sands—Part 3: Sanctum of the Sages
5–21: The Merchant's Wake
6–14: Scions of the Sky Key, Part 2: Kaava Quarry
I am not all that fond of chase scenes that use the typical Gamemastery Guide's format as they have a strong tendency to leave certain classes in the dust. In fact, on more than one occasion I have seen these chase scenes in with at least one character still stuck in the starting box simply because they did not have the 2 correct skills/abilities. Later scenarios wised up to this and either offer group-centric checks or, in one case, offered a way of those who could handle chase scenes easily to help those who couldn't at the possible risk of slowing themselves down.
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I like chase scenes of all types!
As John Compton said, some chases require the GMG rules, thematically, because they are more individual-centric in nature. It would be really cool to see such future chases try to blend some of the team chase mechanics in.
First, provide suggestions of how PCs can help each other through the chase.
Second, some challenges in the individual chase scenes should not need to be overcome by EVERY character in the party. I could see a chase cards that looks something like this:
CLIMB OVER IT
Climb DC 20
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FIND A LADDER
Perception DC 20
(No movement, but reduces the Climb DC to 0 for CLIMB OVER IT for all other characters on future turns.)
PUSH THROUGH
CMB DC 15
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"OUT OF MY WAY!"
Intimidate DC 25
(This clears the way for all characters currently on this space; immediately move them all to the next space.)
JUMP ACROSS
Acrobatics DC 20
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GO FOR A SWIM
Swim DC 17
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MAKE A DEADFALL BRIDGE
Strength DC 25
(This opens another option for you and all other characters on future turns:
BALANCE ACROSS
Acrobatics DC 7)
etc.
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It would be great if we had the freedom to do such modifications to the chase rules as GMs, but we must follow RAW. So the onus of making these modifications is on the adventure authors. Fortunately, some of them have done just that.
Personally I like the idea of chase scenes, but a lot of the older ones don't play out well mechanically.
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It would be great if we had the freedom to do such modifications to the chase rules as GMs, but we must follow RAW. So the onus of making these modifications is on the adventure authors. Fortunately, some of them have done just that.
Personally I like the idea of chase scenes, but a lot of the older ones don't play out well mechanically.
Yeah, my post was about these appearing IN the scenario, for future scenarios.
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Developer
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Yeah, my post was about these appearing IN the scenario, for future scenarios.It would be great if we had the freedom to do such modifications to the chase rules as GMs, but we must follow RAW. So the onus of making these modifications is on the adventure authors. Fortunately, some of them have done just that.
Personally I like the idea of chase scenes, but a lot of the older ones don't play out well mechanically.
Neat ideas
My aim is to make chases something that are fun and exciting, not the cause of frustration. When it gets to the point that a GM announces a chase and most or all of the table smiles, we will have reached that point.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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It would be great if we had the freedom to do such modifications to the chase rules as GMs, but we must follow RAW. So the onus of making these modifications is on the adventure authors. Fortunately, some of them have done just that.
Personally I like the idea of chase scenes, but a lot of the older ones don't play out well mechanically.
Actually, you kind of do. Under the general rules for finding creative solutions, PCs who can come up with a creative way to use a skill can often use it in place of another skill, (Admittedly, usually at a harder DC.) This shows up in a lot of scenarios and is generally encouraged.
What you are not allowed to do is to change the DC, but you can award a bonus or a penalty for appropriate or inappropriate tools.
So, if the card says "Climb the locked gate" and the mage says "I cast knock, what locked gate?" (And makes a caster level check at least as good as the DC) then that is a creative solution and the obstacle is gone. Ditto if someone gets to the top and pulls out a rope and fastens it (move and standard) Yes, you lose a turn, but if the next card is a social card, and your social character is stuck because he has to make a climb check he can't make, maybe it is worth it.
I feel like a lot of hate for the chase rules comes out of people being upset that people get stuck because there are only two ways off the card, but there are only two ways off the card because GMs refuse to allow creative solutions. So that is really just a self imposed problem.
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My aim is to make chases something that are fun and exciting, not the cause of frustration. When it gets to the point that a GM announces a chase and most or all of the table smiles, we will have reached that point.
I'm not there yet. I've GMed one chase and played through a few others. The best one just came up to the level of OK. It wasn't frustrating, nor a complete waste of time, but I can't say that it was fun.
Correction: There was one chase that was fun. The GenCon special a few years ago. Someone in our party was able to fly. They flew to the end, bypassing all the checks and nerfing the entire chase. Killing the chase felt like we just beat the BBEG.
Also, most chases seem like a waste of time as there really is no chance that your opponent is going to get away. I wonder if the adventures are even written with the bad guy getting away as a possible outcome.
John, I'm not saying don't try to improve the chases or don't include chases. If you don't try to improve them, you're never going to succeed. Make the chases a little more fun. Include a little more RP in them. Write options that take into account you opponent winning - and make that a real possibility.
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Neat ideas** spoiler omitted **
My aim is to make chases something that are fun and exciting, not the cause of frustration. When it gets to the point that a GM announces a chase and most or all of the table smiles, we will have reached that point.
Thanks.
I think the teamwork chase mechanics are actually pretty good. When I ran [REDACTED] from Season 6, my players loved it. One of them—the GM from my home game—said, "that was the best chase ever! It seemed really hard, and scary; I didn't think we were going to make it." Meanwhile, the DCs for that chase were actually much too low, and they easily succeeded on every challenge (I told the players which skills or abilities would be used, but not the difficulty other than "easy," "hard," or "very difficult," etc.).
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Correction: There was one chase that was fun. The GenCon special a few years ago. Someone in our party was able to fly. They flew to the end, bypassing all the checks and nerfing the entire chase. Killing the chase felt like we just beat the BBEG.
The chase rules don't work like that. 60' flight would give you +16 to the checks, but you still have to do them. Most of the fights I have seen, a single character with flight would result in them facing the bad guy alone for 4 rounds... (Lesson, don't leave your friends too far behind...)
Also, most chases seem like a waste of time as there really is no chance that your opponent is going to get away. I wonder if the adventures are even written with the bad guy getting away as a possible outcome.
I seem to remember one I prepped (but never ran) giving a mechanical advantage to the bad guy if they reached the end.
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** spoiler omitted **My aim is to make chases something that are fun and exciting, not the cause of frustration. When it gets to the point that a GM announces a chase and most or all of the table smiles, we will have reached that point.
You'd have to redact the old chases to the new chase mechanics. As it is, its much easier to make a very negative impression than a positive one.
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You'd have to redact the old chases to the new chase mechanics. As it is, its much easier to make a very negative impression than a positive one.
** spoiler omitted **My aim is to make chases something that are fun and exciting, not the cause of frustration. When it gets to the point that a GM announces a chase and most or all of the table smiles, we will have reached that point.
I think frogs are next. Or is that locusts....
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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Did you follow the suggestions in this thread and allow creative application of alternate skills?
It sounds like you made things worse and even harder for them by pulling a bait and switch (asking them how they got through, and then shoehorning that into a skill other than the one they thought they were using, wasting their action.)
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Personally, I like chase scenes. I tend to make characters with a variety of skills, though.
What I've learned from this thread is that many people don't understand their responsibilities as GMs. It's not to "play only by the written rules." Even in the Guide to PFS, it says GMs need to use common sense when running games. Pathfinder is not a game that can run purely on rules, it requires a GM to adapt and bend rules to the situation so everyone has fun.