On the Death Curse 'taking your favorite stuff away' thing,
I suspect it will be used mostly in wars where one side is going down, taking away that gear from their enemy could let them win...???
On the Death Curse 'taking your favorite stuff away' thing,
I suspect it will be used mostly in wars where one side is going down, taking away that gear from their enemy could let them win...???
They haven't addressed it directly, but it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't suspend the death curse during wars. I don't have anything to base that on, just a suspicion.
But it certainly changes things knowing that even if you thread your good gear it might still get swiped and/or destroyed. Have to fill your bank up with +1 gear heh.
Goblin Squad Member
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Furthermore since Andius is a Head of State, by definition he IS a lawful authority and neither he nor anyone acting under his direction could be considered a vigilante while operating in ANY territory that other then that held by a power who's Soveriegnty has been recognized by him and where he was not invited to act.
Following that logic, since arab muslims are one of the indigenous people of the middle east whom at one time the US government acknowledged the sovereignty of therefore all US forces, including those that killed UBL, were in fact Infidels not patriots.... but wait, don't all US forces have diplomatic immunity? Oh wait no, there is such a thing as status of forces agreements... SOFAs that dictate how we are handled when our actions conflict with host nation laws. We can be arrested and tried for what the host nation perceives as vigilantism.
Again... take whatever real world comparison you want to make and throw it out the window... it does not apply. If you open up consequence-less killing on the mere premise that I'm a "good" guy and he's a "bad" guy then dammit I'm playing a lawful good dark elf assassin!
There is no longer any principle behind lawful good. The idea of a "champion" who can in essence be a paladin without having to abide by any code except the one they want to is simply absurd. Way to circumvent alignment and character concept all so some people get to wear the "lawful good" hat just because they want to do the same thing as chaotic evil but not have to wear black. If this is seriously considered, then all alignments should be available to all classes and everyone should be able to do whatever they want...
I'm sorry but if you attack anyone without provocation, it's an evil act. And no, heresay from a newb isn't provocation. That is what the whole flag system is about... it seriously perplexes me that the things they announce that make NO sense what so ever, the majority see the light on... but yet something as common sense and logical and meaningful as these systems comes along and people complain because it's not their vision of what it's suppose to be like.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm sorry but if you attack anyone without provocation, it's an evil act. And no, heresay from a newb isn't provocation. That is what the whole flag system is about... it seriously perplexes me that the things they announce that make NO sense what so ever, the majority see the light on... but yet something as common sense and...
I think its more a case of "not used to anymore". Most MMO games these days are very red versus blue.
Hence the idea that a RED player cannot just randomly kill a non-combat crafting/merchant BLUE PC or visa versa is very foreign to some people.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Oh, the Red and Blue player nations will be perpetually at war with each other; there will just be gentlemans' agreements regarding what is and isn't a valid war target.
An undefended transport of one of the opposing wartime factions wouldn't have to be killed, for example. In the presence of enemy combatants they simply surrender a portion of their goods as though they had been defeated.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Personally I avoid MMOs that divide people into factions. It was in fact a rule in GL on Darkfall that we couldn't kill racial reds in their own territory unless they were on our KOS list and we couldn't kill unarmed reds not on our KOS list anywhere.
The ability to kill someone doesn't mean you automatically have to use it. That was a core principle of GL and now TEO. Just because you can do something per game mechanics doesn't mean you should.
There is no 100% effective way to judge an immoral killing from a moral one but basing it on an alignment determined by your past actions is the closest we are going to get. Beyond that players can use their own discretion.
And alignments are a lot more meaningful than white hat vs. black hat. Black hat gets the black hat because they kill people with white hats, grey hats, and even other black hats. White hats get to wear the white hat because they help people with grey and white hats for no other reason than it's the right thing to do. If evil player's couldn't kill each other and we could both kill neutrals all we wanted then it would be horde vs. alliance meaningless faction based PVP.
The real life comparison is this. You are in a war torn country in Africa. There is an un-uniformed that goes around slaughtering people and doing all of the worst things that you hear about happening in these war torn countries. You've heard about it from the few survivors who managed to hide or escape at each village. You've been given their description. You have even seen them in the act before but they got away. A week later you catch up to them, demand they hand over their arms and give themselves up. They refuse. You kill them.
By YOUR morality I should take an alignment hit for killing them. By MY morality you should take an alignment hit for every innocent villager they ever kill from that point on if you DON'T kill them.
Lets not force our morality on each other. The game has well established criteria on what good and evil are. Lets follow those.
I am optimistic for changes, both with the 'PVP Champion' tag system, and other developments to the Alignment/Reputation system.
I think Paizo has an interest in the online representation of their game world fulfilling their player base's expectations for it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's interesting people get so worked up over alignment, when I have a bigger issue with flags. For example, why do I get a criminal flag when I rob a husk when there is no other PC or NPC for miles around?
Maybe it would be simpler to remove all flags completely and all alignment changes from PKs, and let the dice fall where they may?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe it would be simpler to remove all flags completely and all alignment changes from PKs, and let the dice fall where they may?
Simpler.
But you would lose the mass of players that are not particularly excited by PVP. Most crafter/merchant types will have no interest in giving characters combat abilities. its a waste of crafting skills.
You would end up in a PvP world where all the better combat items are crafted but there are no crafters to make them because they got sick of dieing and being robbed and quit the game.
For example, why do I get a criminal flag when I rob a husk when there is no other PC or NPC for miles around?
Well what do you expect when you go brag about it on the internet? 8-P
To your point, I think it would be preferable if some 'in game world' explanation can be had for all the 'metagame' info that characters are supposed to be consciously acting upon... In a game world with magic and gods, it shouldn't be too hard...
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Goblin Squad Member
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For example, why do I get a criminal flag when I rob a husk when there is no other PC or NPC for miles around?Well what do you expect when you go brag about it on the internet? 8-P
To your point, I think it would be preferable if some 'in game world' explanation can be had for all the 'metagame' info that characters are supposed to be consciously acting upon... In a game world with magic and gods, it shouldn't be too hard...
You just died and were resurrected by a god at a nearby soul-bind point.
At the very least the victim and the god in question both know about it.
Presumably the god is dissed at having to resurrect all the time and has taken to marking the perpetrators.
Just call it "marked by Pharasma as a criminal."
fyi, assassination as described is BEYOND the normal penalties of normal 'pseudo killing', and has far more serious consequences, and thus has much heavier evil repurcussions for those who do it/ contract it out.
the prices to contract those out should just be established by whatever the market is willing to pay for them.
re: bounties, i wonder if depending on the bounty offerer's / target's reputation, and whether the target had any valid flags relevant to the bounty offerer has any influence on the bounty, whether that info is clear and available for prospective bounty hunters to know about, and if it affects any alignment / reputation repurcussions for the bounty hunters...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe it would be simpler to remove all flags completely and all alignment changes from PKs, and let the dice fall where they may?
Simpler.
But you would lose the mass of players that are not particularly excited by PVP. Most crafter/merchant types will have no interest in giving characters combat abilities. its a waste of crafting skills.
You would end up in a PvP world where all the better combat items are crafted but there are no crafters to make them because they got sick of dieing and being robbed and quit the game.
How so?
With flags: An evil guy whacks someone, and gets a flag. What does this mean? Anyone can whack him.
A good guy whacks someone, and gets a flag. What does this mean? Anyone can whack him.
Without flags: An evil guy whacks someone. What does this mean? Anyone can whack him.
A good guy whacks someone. What does this mean? Anyone can whack him.
There is no difference from a mechanics perspective other than with the current proposal, PCs get an alignment shift to evil upon killing someone. Thus, the mechanics are there to support alignment and have zero to do with PvE vs PvP or crafters.
Removing alignment and flags would change nothing except allow the aforementioned mechanics to be removed. Paladins can still RP being a paladin. Assassins can RP being an assassin. Reputation, bounties and death curses would still be there to inhibit griefers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For example, why do I get a criminal flag when I rob a husk when there is no other PC or NPC for miles around?Well what do you expect when you go brag about it on the internet? 8-P
To your point, I think it would be preferable if some 'in game world' explanation can be had for all the 'metagame' info that characters are supposed to be consciously acting upon... In a game world with magic and gods, it shouldn't be too hard...
Agreed. This is one solution or one reasoning. Of course, this could also be applied to the 'kill a PC and slide evil' mechanic.
I'm not fussed either way really. Flags make it hard for stealth characters to operate, but people can find ways around that ir ways to work within those boundaries. Sliding evil when killing someone is just another game rule that people need to work around or within.
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Goblin Squad Member
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For example, why do I get a criminal flag when I rob a husk when there is no other PC or NPC for miles around?Well what do you expect when you go brag about it on the internet? 8-P
To your point, I think it would be preferable if some 'in game world' explanation can be had for all the 'metagame' info that characters are supposed to be consciously acting upon... In a game world with magic and gods, it shouldn't be too hard...
You just died and were resurrected by a god at a nearby soul-bind point.
At the very least the victim and the god in question both know about it.
Presumably the god is dissed at having to resurrect all the time and has taken to marking the perpetrators.
Just call it "marked by Pharasma as a criminal."
Except my rogue didn't perform the murder. He just happened by at the wrong time, yet he still gets a flag? A deity gets annoyed enough to do that, but allows their laity to be killed with impunity?
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Goblin Squad Member
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We aren’t talking about just killing evil characters on a whim, but what about a known group who griefs players, or a group that just robbed yesterday (attacker/criminal flag has worn off) a bunch of players? How do you go after them and bring them to justice without killing them (as there is no other mechanical means right now) and taking an alignment hit?
You would have to stop them while in the process of griefing. Defend people they are actively harassing, etc. If you just kill someone for being a member of an organisation that might once have been guilty of something, then you're being neither lawful, nor good. If the consequences of their actions have "run out", then they are no longer actively guilty of anything, and hunting them down pre-emptively because 'their sort is up to no good' sounds a lot like griefing to me.
But hey, that's the kind of dilemma real-life law enforcement faces every day. The fact that you're worried about it too, might actually be a point in favour of the system.
What is the time limit on Good/Evil again?
Vigilante Pro-Tip: Timing is 93% of Goodness. (Unless you can make it look Lawfully legitimate)
Heroic Fantasy Adventurers are not and should not be compared to 'Law Enforcement',
and their morals should not be based on what is actually a good idea to implement on large scale in the real world.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As a role-player, I have always determined my character's alignment by how I choose to have that character act. I've never played a game (except paper and pencil games) where I had to determine and announce my alignment or had any game mechanics control it to the degree that this game apparently will (yes, UO had karma based titles, but they had little serious affect on your game experience). Instead, I determined my actions and people around me interpreted those actions as good or evil.
I have been in games where "bad" behavior is punished by the awarding of a flag, by loss of reputation, and a slide towards "red" status (murderer status from UO, where anyone could kill you without penalty). These were all game created mechanics to discourage behavior that often negatively affected other player's gaming experience.
I understand the desire, even the need for controlling alignment in this game. You have to be the correct alignment to gain certain archetype abilities (paladins, clerics, necromancers, etc.). However, what I think we're seeing is a problem with implementing both of these systems in the same game. The question that arises is, can you truly have a system that fairly incorporates both metagame intent (anti-griefer killing) and role-played intent (acting in a way that stays true to your alignment). Are you whacking that other player because you know he's a griefer, yet he currently has no flag...or are you whacking him because you are role-playing your alignment and he is the oppositional alignment? The real problem is that no game mechanic can judge player intent, so if you're going to punish the "bad" behavior, the actions from either motive are treated as equally "bad" actions.
Personally, I have seen from past free-for-all PvP games that there is a need for game mechanics that discourage/punish negative player behavior (griefing, random PKing, etc.). If you want to act that way, there should be stiff penalties...and you know that before you act that way. As far as alignment, I would rather be in control of that...let me act as I think best for my character and let the public judge my actions. After all, if you keep claiming to be a paladin, but you keep killing people left and right, regardless of your game mechanic assigned alignment, people are going to question how good you really are.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have to say many people are really confused about the alignment system and are attached to the alignment names. It is only the deeds that define you. Nothing else. Killing is evil. Helping is good. Whether you are a bad person or a good one. I know it's not the same system as in PnP, it can't be. Because otherwise it would be faction based and have much less dept in it. I think this system is better. It reflects the real world more accurately imo and can create lots of exciting tension in the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@GrumpyMel
Just for your information: I have no itent to play an evil char. My main char is possibly going to be NG and the destiny twin is probably going to be some of the N alignment I'm just deciding the concept.
That said lets clarify some points:
Are you pointing the US Marines as an example of LG (or any good) organization????? They are at the best q LN one, some Iraqui civilians would argue they are LE or worse. Its a matter of point of view, but definitelly no Marine corps in the world can be pointed as good organizations. If the need to carry evil missions they will because they just follow orders. IMO they are just LN, commanders ask they obbey, period.
But lets go back to the subject of this thread.
Just because you don't agree with some points of view here it doesn't mean they are nonsense, people just think different, have different perspectives, different experiences and different concepts of good, evil and justice. We must all live with that, its life.
What is clear here is that some people believe revenge is part of good behavior, other, like me, disagree. IMO revenge is always evil. There is an ancient chinese quote that says: "Before starting a vendetta you must dig TWO graves". IMO Killing when you have other options is evil, period.
The problem here is that the game, to the date, offers no other options to good chars "punish" or "justice" the evil ones but kill. So people are arguing that good should be able to kill evil even when they are not flagged. But that poses a mechanics problem as grieffers could just create "good" chars to keep killing the evil ones with minimal consequences. So the DEVs are going to present some flags, especially the champion flag that (probably) is going to let the good players to fight evil proactivelly, and get no alignment penalty.
So what is the problem now? Because now you have a way to deal with the evil, but just need make clear to everybody that you are doing it for justice (presenting a champion flag) and not for fun or other unjustiffied reason. Put your flag and go to kill every evildoer you find in your way if you want and has the means to do so. I see no big deal anymore.
The main point is: You need to have a way to tell people (and the computer!) that your reasons to kill evil chars are noble. Without that you are undistinguishable from a grieffer. Auto-flags may be the solution, lets see how it will work, before say game's mechanics to control grieffing are poor.
Before we see what the DEVs have to present next week this discussion kind of makes not much sense anymore.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Im really loving this Crowdforger idea. Never have I seen so many devs jump in and join the discussion before on any MMO. To Lisa, Ryan, and the rest of the team, thank you for allowing us to continue this discussion. I know it is going to be a very slippery slope to balance out this system, but as Lisa stated, this has never been done before. Can't wait for next weeks blog post.
To the community, you guys are awesome. This discussion has been very mature and everyone has been accepting of the opinions of others.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Im really loving this Crowdforger idea. Never have I seen so many devs jump in and join the discussion before on any MMO. To Lisa, Ryan, and the rest of the team, thank you for allowing us to continue this discussion. I know it is going to be a very slippery slope to balance out this system, but as Lisa stated, this has never been done before. Can't wait for next weeks blog post.
To the community, you guys are awesome. This discussion has been very mature and everyone has been accepting of the opinions of others.
Make it two of us!
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Goblin Squad Member
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You would have to stop them while in the process of griefing. Defend people they are actively harassing, etc. If you just kill someone for being a member of an organisation that might once have been guilty of something, then you're being neither lawful, nor good. If the consequences of their actions have "run out", then they are no longer actively guilty of anything, and hunting them down pre-emptively because 'their sort is up to no good' sounds a lot like griefing to me.
But hey, that's the kind of dilemma real-life law enforcement faces every day. The fact that you're worried about it too, might actually be a point in favour of the system.
You and I will just have to disagree on the definition of griefing. I am talking about going after a player/organization who has already done the fact over and over and have established themselves as one, but is smart enough to hide until their criminal/attacker flag is gone (which really doesn’t take all that long).
As I said, it’s not hunting characters just because they are evil, but if they murder innocents, and make a habit of RPKing, then they do deserve to be hunted and stopped. And I’m not talking about just hoping to catch them when it happens.
You want to use real life example of law enforcement, if someone commits a crime, the criminal doesn’t have a ‘temporary flag’ where they hide and wait for it to expire. They are a wanted person and will be hunted until found and brought to justice.
But I don’t like comparing real life to a game, as it is completely different mindset and just doesn’t work in regards to a design standpoint. If it worked like real life, criminals would be apprehended and have to sit in a ‘jail’. I’m sure you can see why that would not work.
But I am interested to see what this “Champion Flag” will entail, it sounds like it may be a good compromise.
i do have 1 question about the bounty system:
it's supposed to have a feature where the bounty hunter gains some ability to track the target and gain info about the target. can you accept your own bounty to access those features yourself, or just access those features directly on characters you COULD put out a bounty on (or anybody you want to)? D.I.Y. bounty hunting, as it were...? since some characters are supposed to have skills which enhance those functions, why can't they use them outside of a bounty contract?
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Goblin Squad Member
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...but is smart enough to hide until their criminal/attacker flag is gone (which really doesn’t take all that long).
I really wish people would stop making this baseless claim. We have no information how long criminal flags will last, other than the statement that if you get them again while flagged, it compounds the duration and can make it permanent.
You want to use real life example of law enforcement, if someone commits a crime, the criminal doesn’t have a ‘temporary flag’ where they hide and wait for it to expire. They are a wanted person and will be hunted until found and brought to justice.
Hi, meet my good friend, the Statute of Limitations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@All
Why do some of you seem to equate "no alignment shift towards Evil" with "no consequences"? The two are not identical.
If the Lawful Good character can do anything they like whether it is good or bad without potential for shifting alignment, then alignment becomes meaningless. Much of the game depends on alignment.
Just because the mechanics surrounding alignment don't perfectly match what you want doesn't mean the alignment system has to change. It may instead mean your desires need to adapt.
Without alignment at all there are no sides for conflict, conflict has no purpose or meaning beyond an endless gankfest like Planetside2, the most meaningless game I've ever experienced.
What I am saying is that the ALIGNMENT system is a very poor choice of control to use for those controls. The alignment system really is about measuring where the character stands in relation to the cosmology of the Universe...an in game concern. The Anti-Greifing system is about preventing PLAYERS from harming other PLAYERS of the game...an entirely OUT OF GAME concern.
Actually the alignment system is a better choice than any alternative I've seen. The alignment system is consistent and it integrates well with the rest of the game systems that have been described. It also maps well to western culture and seems logically consistent.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@GrumpyMel
Are you pointing the US Marines as an example of LG (or any good) organization????? They are at the best q LN one, some Iraqui civilians would argue they are LE or worse. Its a matter of point of view, but definitelly no Marine corps in the world can be pointed as good organizations. If the need to carry evil missions they will because they just follow orders. IMO they are just LN, commanders ask they obbey, period.
This is why we shouldn't spin off into "the real world" and "real world" examples. We will end up with people who literally know nothing about the real world objects in their examples, making face-palmingly moronic statements like this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is why we shouldn't spin off into "the real world" and "real world" examples. We will end up with people who literally know nothing about the real world objects in their examples, making face-palmingly moronic statements like this.@GrumpyMel
Are you pointing the US Marines as an example of LG (or any good) organization????? They are at the best q LN one, some Iraqui civilians would argue they are LE or worse. Its a matter of point of view, but definitelly no Marine corps in the world can be pointed as good organizations. If the need to carry evil missions they will because they just follow orders. IMO they are just LN, commanders ask they obbey, period.
Was that offensive post directed at me or GrurmpyMel?
Anyway I would like to see you refrain yourself from offending any player in this forum please.
Go be a jerk in another place please.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just as another example of deities promoting a more violent form of justice, Sarenrae, who has the portfolio that includes Sun, Redemption, Honesty and Healing also understands the need for violence.
"Yet there are those who have no interest in redemption, who glory in slaughter and death. From the remorseless evil of the undead and fiends to the cruelties born in the hearts of mortals, Sarenrae's doctrines preach swift justice delivered by the scimitar's edge. To this end, she expects her faithful to be skilled at swordplay, both as a form of martial art promoting centering of mind and body, and so that when they do enter battle, their foes do not suffer any longer than necessary."
So even if violence isn't in the portfolio good gods see the need for a more final form of justic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really wish people would stop making this baseless claim. We have no information how long criminal flags will last, other than the statement that if you get them again while flagged, it compounds the duration and can make it permanent.
Hi, meet my good friend, the Statute of Limitations.
You want to use real life example of law enforcement, if someone commits a crime, the criminal doesn’t have a ‘temporary flag’ where they hide and wait for it to expire. They are a wanted person and will be hunted until found and brought to justice.
But it’s not baseless. It’s been quoted more than once, in this thread, that the flags do not last that long. Now, if we find out that flags for killing people last for at least several days, then I will retract that, but the longest I’ve heard for any flag so far is 24 hours.
Can we please stop with the real life comparisons? They really do not mean anything or translate well to the game. But if you want to go down that route, Statue of Limitations is that, limited. There is no Statue of Limitations for murder, which really is what we are talking about here in RPKers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It is difficult to think of anyone more evil than a mass murderer, even if that mass murderer thinks he is justified. Perhaps especially where that mass murderer thinks he is justified.
Whether he is unemplyed, an industrial mogul, a priest, or a king. Whether he thinks he is lawful good and the people he is murdering en masse are also murderers.
Alignment shift for killing another player makes sense. Not shifting alignment for killing another player makes alignment meaningless.
The complaint is that it is unfair that the evil bolster their alignment from doing evil things but the good damage their alignment from doing evil things. Problem is that is the burden of being good: you don't get to do evil things and still be good.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I really wish people would stop making this baseless claim. We have no information how long criminal flags will last, other than the statement that if you get them again while flagged, it compounds the duration and can make it permanent.
Hi, meet my good friend, the Statute of Limitations.
You want to use real life example of law enforcement, if someone commits a crime, the criminal doesn’t have a ‘temporary flag’ where they hide and wait for it to expire. They are a wanted person and will be hunted until found and brought to justice.But it’s not baseless. It’s been quoted more than once, in this thread, that the flags do not last that long. Now, if we find out that flags for killing people last for at least several days, then I will retract that, but the longest I’ve heard for any flag so far is 24 hours.
Can we please stop with the real life comparisons? They really do not mean anything or translate well to the game. But if you want to go down that route, Statue of Limitations is that, limited. There is no Statue of Limitations for murder, which really is what we are talking about here in RPKers.
Pretty hard to conscience the abstraction of questions of good and evil from reality without getting awfully unreal.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is why we shouldn't spin off into "the real world" and "real world" examples. We will end up with people who literally know nothing about the real world objects in their examples, making face-palmingly moronic statements like this.@GrumpyMel
Are you pointing the US Marines as an example of LG (or any good) organization????? They are at the best q LN one, some Iraqui civilians would argue they are LE or worse. Its a matter of point of view, but definitelly no Marine corps in the world can be pointed as good organizations. If the need to carry evil missions they will because they just follow orders. IMO they are just LN, commanders ask they obbey, period.
Was that offensive post directed at me or GrurmpyMel?
Anyway I would like to see you refrain yourself from offending any player in this forum please.
Go be a jerk in another place please.
It may not be pleasant for you to have someone point out that you're speaking out of profound ignorance--in a very literal sense, you know nothing about the US Marine Corps--but you can still accept the accuracy of the observation without taking it personally. My point is that your comments reflect that ignorance, and are in this case extremely offensive. It's a good example of why people should drop the "real world" comparisons and stick to PFO.
If we're talking about rogues, elves and fireball spells, members are much more likely to have something relevant and accurate to add.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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As I said, it’s not hunting characters just because they are evil, but if they murder innocents, and make a habit of RPKing, then they do deserve to be hunted and stopped. And I’m not talking about just hoping to catch them when it happens.
Everythng I have been seeing proposed is simply being able to kill evil players with no alignment hit whether they are flagged or not. How do you keep griefers who aren't only going after RPKers from killing the meaningful evil characters if there isn't a system in place to eventually drift them out of their alignments to stop the benefit of being able to kill with no consequence?
You're basically swtiching the sides so good players can be RPKers and evil are the ones getting RPKed (I know that's not the intent, but with no mechanical disadvantage to doing so that is what will happen)
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Goblin Squad Member
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As I said, it’s not hunting characters just because they are evil, but if they murder innocents, and make a habit of RPKing, then they do deserve to be hunted and stopped. And I’m not talking about just hoping to catch them when it happens.Everythng I have been seeing proposed is simply being able to kill evil players with no alignment hit whether they are flagged or not. How do you keep griefers who aren't only going after RPKers from killing the meaningful evil characters if there isn't a system in place to eventually drift them out of their alignments to stop the benefit of being able to kill with no consequence?
You're basically swtiching the sides so good players can be RPKers and evil are the ones getting RPKed (I know that's not the intent, but with no mechanical disadvantage to doing so that is what will happen)
I see your point, but hopefully that is what the “Champion flag” will address. I am interested in hearing more about that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
...It may not be pleasant for you to have someone point out that you're speaking out of profound ignorance--in a very literal sense, you know nothing about the US Marine Corps--but you can still accept the accuracy of the observation without taking it personally. My point is that your comments reflect that ignorance, and are in this case extremely offensive. It's a good example of why people should drop the "real world" comparisons and stick to PFO.
If we're talking about rogues, elves and fireball spells, members are much more likely to have something relevant and accurate to add.
All it takes is a little self-discipline to recognize that fantasy is also real in the sense that it is really fantasy.
We cannot discuss real things like good and evil without real references to good and evil. Abstractions like that get nations into wars, which is not a good thing.
We can do our best to recognize that unit identity is very strong in Marines and we should avoid affronting a Marine, especialy when other marines are present. Not going to end well.
Thank you, all veterans, for your service to the United States and the principles of Liberty she represents.
That does not mean we need to remove the idea of good and evil from a discussion of good and evil. It means we should try and refrain for making personal attacks if we are to have any kind of constructive conversation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is why we shouldn't spin off into "the real world" and "real world" examples. We will end up with people who literally know nothing about the real world objects in their examples, making face-palmingly moronic statements like this.@GrumpyMel
Are you pointing the US Marines as an example of LG (or any good) organization????? They are at the best q LN one, some Iraqui civilians would argue they are LE or worse. Its a matter of point of view, but definitelly no Marine corps in the world can be pointed as good organizations. If the need to carry evil missions they will because they just follow orders. IMO they are just LN, commanders ask they obbey, period.
Was that offensive post directed at me or GrurmpyMel?
Anyway I would like to see you refrain yourself from offending any player in this forum please.
Go be a jerk in another place please.
It may not be pleasant for you to have someone point out that you're speaking out of profound ignorance--in a very literal sense, you know nothing about the US Marine Corps--but you can still accept the accuracy of the observation without taking it personally. My point is that your comments reflect that ignorance, and are in this case extremely offensive. It's a good example of why people should drop the "real world" comparisons and stick to PFO.
If we're talking about rogues, elves and fireball spells, members are much more likely to have something relevant and accurate to add.
1- How do you know I know nothing of US Marines corps?
2- Being LN is somehow a bad thing to be considered an offense?Sound to me like you have taken personally something you should not.
Just for your information: My two grandfathers and my father himself were in the military. One of my grandfathers was a GENERAL of Brazilian army. The other was a sargeant of Navy and was promoted to Lieutenant after his ship was sunk by german submarines in WW2, and he was floating in the sea for almost two days grabbing a piece of floating debris to prevent him from being ate by the sarks who ate many of his shipmates just in front of him, and he could do nothing to help most of them.
so don't tell me I know nothing of military organizations please.
Most of them are just LN AS ORGANIZATIONS IMO (Do I have the right of having an oppinion?), that does not mean all people in there are LN or good or evil . You may have people of all alignments in any army just the chaotic will have a bad time following orders. But IMO most of them are just LN including the marines (we have our own marine corps in Brazil too you know?).
If you disagree don't be offended, I had nor have any intention of offending any military organization, I know their value and their honorable roles.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Are you pointing the US Marines as an example of LG (or any good) organization????? They are at the best q LN one, some Iraqui civilians would argue they are LE or worse. Its a matter of point of view, but definitelly no Marine corps in the world can be pointed as good organizations. If the need to carry evil missions they will because they just follow orders. IMO they are just LN, commanders ask they obbey, period.
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LordDaeron I have to assume you have no idea how offensive this remark is, personally, to men who have laid their lives on the line so that people like you can be at liberty in the opinions and beliefs you enjoy.
Please be respectful of our Marines if you wish to be respected at all. If you have opinions of them that are less than stellar that is your business, but to vent them here is to invite the destruction of this valuable thread.
i do have 1 question about the bounty system:
it's supposed to have a feature where the bounty hunter gains some ability to track the target and gain info about the target. can you accept your own bounty to access those features yourself, or just access those features directly on characters you COULD put out a bounty on (or anybody you want to)? D.I.Y. bounty hunting, as it were...? since some characters are supposed to have skills which enhance those functions, why can't they use them outside of a bounty contract?
You can't put a bounty on just anyone. You have to have a reason to place a bounty on someone ie. they killed you. Eve is experiencing what happens when you can place bounties on whomever you wish. It allows people to use the bounty system to grief others and distorts the whole concept of the bounty system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I still not know why being LN would be an offense... so let it be. I'm sorry if I offended anybody.
Marines are held to an exceptionally high standard of moral and ethical values that are not just strict, but also good. It is with great personal sacrifice that they earn their place in the ranks of the Corps. That sacrifice is both real and personal: self-discipline has a very real cost that cannot be measured by money.
Are there ever exceptions who disgrace the uniform? Certainly there have been: but those were not Marines.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I still not know why being LN would be an offense... so let it be. I'm sorry if I offended anybody.Marines are held to an exceptionally high standard of moral and ethical values that are not just strict, but also good. It is with great personal sacrifice that they earn their place in the ranks of the Corps. That sacrifice is both real and personal: self-discipline has a very real cost that cannot be measured by money.
Are there ever exceptions who disgrace the uniform? Certainly there have been: but those were not Marines.
I'm not talking about marines as people I'm talking about a marine corp as organization. LN IMO, if you disagree ok your call but don't pretend I'm offending anybody becaus I'm not. Actually I almost enlisted myself to serve in the Braziliian marine corps, just for your information.
It's quite possible to disagree with the actions of the military yet support those soldiers who put on the uniform and carry out their orders day in and day out. This isn't the forum to debate that sort of thing though, but I had to at least comment as LordDaeron was just using an example brought up by someone else, isn't an American and honestly his view of the US military should be taken with the knowledge that some really bad things have been done in his country, and other countries nearby by members of the military acting under orders that were less then honorable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's quite possible to disagree with the actions of the military yet support those soldiers who put on the uniform and carry out their orders day in and day out. This isn't the forum to debate that sort of thing though, but I had to at least comment as LordDaeron was just using an example brought up by someone else, isn't an American and honestly his view of the US military should be taken with the knowledge that some really bad things have been done in his country, and other countries nearby by members of the military acting under orders that were less then honorable.
You can't put a badge of LG in a organization where if a bad commander issues bad orders they will follow (most of time unaware of the bad inteintions of the bad commander), They will follow the orders and the consequences may be bad. Are the soldiers bad? No, they were just following orders. So IMO any honorable military organization is just LN. Is that an offense? Why? So lets go back to the threads subject please I hope I have made myself clear.