Never have I encountered an alter in an adventure that didn't have some rider effect attached to it.
"Clean up and restore an abandoned altar of a good deity, gain a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score of your choice."
"Kick over the altar of werewolf deity and suffer 4 charisma drain; nothing short of limited wish, miracle, or wish can cure it.*"
"Pray at the altar and gain +1 bonus to all saves for the next 24 hours."
It. is. getting. OLD. Why can't an altar just be an altar? NPCs use them ALL the time with no real benefit. Why is it ALWAYS different for PC heroes? It boggles the mind!
If you MUST have a rider effect, at least base it on existing rules, such as using the consecrate/desecrate or the hallow/unhallow spells. But no. Published adventures ALWAYS have to go and be unique, just going around making s#!@ up all the time! No matter that the -4 ability drain can't be cured for the next 10 levels, completely crippling your character!
I know not what you mean.
Note: The people usually using them don't f%%* with 'em by, I dunno...kicking them over (thus desecrating them)?
And I'm pretty sure most altars with riders are special in some way.
The moral of the story: Don't screw with objects of worship in a setting where the gods can and will come down just to piss on your face and leave again. Especially not in a campaign built around the idea of bad juju popping up everywhere.
Also what Cheeseweasel said.
I know not what you mean.
He means that of the 8 times you spelled "Altar", you spelled it "Alter" once.
Anyway, as to your actual complaint, I agree with Rynjin. In the Fantasy World where Gods give spells and boons to followers, How you react to Altars will usually cause a reaction from the Altar.
Otherwise, why would you be Sacrificing People to them on a regular basis?
You could find an Altar to a False God that probably wouldn't do anything though.
Altars with their rider effects is kind of a cliche and unimaginitive idea.
why would a god; a creature of power beyond the comprehension of any mortal; care if one mortal interacted with an item constructed by another mortal in any way?
gods should not be that petty. kicking an altar to a werewolf god should not inflict 4 points of charisma drain, the god should have an agenda that takes far more priority over one guy kicking an idol built from stone by some random obsessed mortal.
and what god really cares that a paladin offers him a prayer and tribute? the gods can create any damned thing they feel like whenever the hell the please. they don't need tribute.
I've got no issues with the cliche. There are a ton more cliches that bother me more than this one.
Altars should be some sort of extension of the deity. Defiling one or otherwise doing something significant to one should have some impact on that deity, and that might mean a response.
I know not what you mean.He means that of the 8 times you spelled "Altar", you spelled it "Alter" once.
Actually, the statement was meant to be rhetorical, as I misspelled it in every instance, then edited in the fixes after Cheeseweasel's enlightening post.
Seems I missed one. :|
I've got no issues with the cliche. There are a ton more cliches that bother me more than this one.
Altars should be some sort of extension of the deity. Defiling one or otherwise doing something significant to one should have some impact on that deity, and that might mean a response.
+1
Also, I don't see any reason module writers shouldn't get creative when it comes to what the altar can do. My only caveat to that being I would prefer them to be stated up as wondrous items.
Altars with their rider effects is kind of a cliche and unimaginitive idea.
why would a god; a creature of power beyond the comprehension of any mortal; care if one mortal interacted with an item constructed by another mortal in any way?
I dunno.
Why would a god, a creature of power beyond the comprehension of any mortal, give powers to Paladins/Druids/Rangers and especially Clerics who worship them?
gods should not be that petty.
But they are.
Altars with their rider effects is kind of a cliche and unimaginitive idea.
why would a god; a creature of power beyond the comprehension of any mortal; care if one mortal interacted with an item constructed by another mortal in any way?
I dunno.
Why would a god, a creature of power beyond the comprehension of any mortal, give powers to Paladins/Druids/Rangers and especially Clerics who worship them?
the easy way to imagine it, the Paladin, Druid, Ranger, or Cleric doesn't directly draw their power from the deity itself, but rather, from their pious faith and hard work.
gods should not be that petty.But they are.
they have far more important things on their agenda than a handful of mortals.
they have far more important things on their agenda than a handful of mortals.
Then why do they get involved in the mortal realm at all?
If you buy into the common polytheistic fantasy world trope that the number of worshipers a god has helps determine how powerful it is, it makes sense that gods would punish those who disrespect or defile their altars for the same reason that companies sue those who deface or misuse their logos. Perception is important. If gods have to compete for worshipers, it behooves them to appear powerful, and zapping anyone who disrespects their symbols or holy places is a visible reminder of power.
It's basic PR.
But it was stated in Pathfinder that the Golarion deities don't live through worship like the deities in Forgotten Realms...
I'll admit upfront that I'm not a continuity expert, and still have a lot of products to read. :-)
But even if a deity doesn't require worshipers to exist, and/or doesn't have their personal power level determined by number of worshipers, more worshipers means more hands in the world, and thus more advancement or one deity's goals or ideals over a different deity's.
Altars with their rider effects is kind of a cliche and unimaginitive idea.
why would a god; a creature of power beyond the comprehension of any mortal; care if one mortal interacted with an item constructed by another mortal in any way?
gods should not be that petty. kicking an altar to a werewolf god should not inflict 4 points of charisma drain, the god should have an agenda that takes far more priority over one guy kicking an idol built from stone by some random obsessed mortal.
and what god really cares that a paladin offers him a prayer and tribute? the gods can create any damned thing they feel like whenever the hell the please. they don't need tribute.
Because a tiny fraction of that beings power was used to consecrate that altar towards the worship of said deity.
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It's basic PR.
And that gives adventure writers the right to totally mess with players? This was early in an adventure path. It wasn't just a curse that takes a little time and money to remove, it was a potentially crippling blow that will haunt the character for several levels (essentially the rest of the adventure path). Had I been playing a sorcerer, oracle or bard, rather than a fighter this would have been a fate FAR worse than death.
Screw that. That's bad game design AND terribly cliche.
the easy way to imagine it, the Paladin, Druid, Ranger, or Cleric doesn't directly draw their power from the deity itself, but rather, from their pious faith and hard work.
So what's the difference between them and the devout farmer? His faith is no less strong, but he gets no extra power from it.
The only way it really makes sense is if they've entered into a legitimate compact with their faith.
Hell, it even says in the description of the Cleric, flat out, that they draw strength from their deities.
There are deity-less Clerics but IMO they're just exemplifying a quality one of the gods also does and he just sends some magical mojo their way since he doesn't care if they worship him directly if they're furthering his purpose.
they have far more important things on their agenda than a handful of mortals.
Not when that handful of mortals is impeding their plans by interfering with their mortal servants. Mortals are very important to the gods of Golarion. If nothing else they all like getting their ego stroked by the puny mortals, and at best they truly want to help them (like Erastil) and walk among them sometimes.
The idea of a god that doesn't care about the mortal world is a fairly modern construction.
And is it really that difficult for a god to lay a trap on an altar that goes *BANG* every time someone screw with it? A level 5 Wizard could do it, I have a hard time believing a god can't.
It's basic PR.And that gives adventure writers the right to totally mess with players? This was early in an adventure path. It wasn't just a curse that takes a little time and money to remove, it was a potentially crippling blow that will haunt the character for several levels (essentially the rest of the adventure path). Had I been playing a sorcerer, oracle or bard, rather than a fighter this would have been a fate FAR worse than death.
Screw that. That's bad game design AND terribly cliche.
I dunno, I still don't know what put it in your head that walking over and kicking over a god's sandcastle like that was a good idea. And aren't you in Carrion Crown? If you're dealing with werewolves, I'd hardly call "halfway through" "Early in the AP".
Also I just went back to look at Broken Moon right quick.
It's basic PR.And that gives adventure writers the right to totally mess with players? This was early in an adventure path. It wasn't just a curse that takes a little time and money to remove, it was a potentially crippling blow that will haunt the character for several levels (essentially the rest of the adventure path). Had I been playing a sorcerer, oracle or bard, rather than a fighter this would have been a fate FAR worse than death.
Screw that. That's bad game design AND terribly cliche.
While I can agree it is cliche, it's far from bad game design, any more than traps and ambushes are. It's a trope in fantasy that bad things happen if you desecrate a holy site (altar, gravesite, church) and can make some nice little bonuses. I know my players in Kingmaker liked the little bonus they got for cleaning the statue of Erastil and his help here and there made him the nation's national religion.
the easy way to imagine it, the Paladin, Druid, Ranger, or Cleric doesn't directly draw their power from the deity itself, but rather, from their pious faith and hard work.So what's the difference between them and the devout farmer? His faith is no less strong, but he gets no extra power from it.
The only way it really makes sense is if they've entered into a legitimate compact with their faith.
Hell, it even says in the description of the Cleric, flat out, that they draw strength from their deities.
There are deity-less Clerics but IMO they're just exemplifying a quality one of the gods also does and he just sends some magical mojo their way since he doesn't care if they worship him directly if they're furthering his purpose.
the cleric has trained to manifest their faith into power, creating a series of belief based powers. while the devout farmer has not.
just believing is not enough. you have to learn to manifest that belief into a power source.
hence the hard work.
It's basic PR.And that gives adventure writers the right to totally mess with players? This was early in an adventure path. It wasn't just a curse that takes a little time and money to remove, it was a potentially crippling blow that will haunt the character for several levels (essentially the rest of the adventure path). Had I been playing a sorcerer, oracle or bard, rather than a fighter this would have been a fate FAR worse than death.
Screw that. That's bad game design AND terribly cliche.
I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue in terms of the "rights" of adventure designers. Are you saying the curse breaks the rules mechanically? Or that it's unbalanced in terms of power level? Or that you just don't like it from a story perspective?
If you desecrate the symbol of an all-powerful being, you risk pretty negative consequences, and there are similar mechanics in many RPGs, both computer and pen and paper. If I randomly start attacking guards as a low-level character in Skyrim, all the guards will attack me and kill me. Back in Baldur's Gate, it was possible to attack the Red Wizards when you were a first-level character, which would get you pretty much insta-zapped. If I walked up to an ancient dragon and taunted it in my Pathfinder campaign, I'm pretty sure my GM would have it fry me.
Actions have consequences. :-)
Kicking over an altar is basically "Blasphemy for Dummies." Restoring one is "Sanctity for Dummies." Having the gods curse or bless those who do these things is pretty much basic PR.
If you want to desecrate an altar with absolutely no consequences, desecrate an altar of Aroden.
As for having a curse strong enough that you need a Limited Wish to remove it, gods know that Remove Curse is a spell since it's one that they grant and they also know that a savvy cleric is going to pack a Wand of Remove Curse to get rid of all those pesky minor curses. Ergo, if someone really ticks them off, they're not going to do a minor curse.
If your players go around breaking altars of evil deities, I can see why they have a lot of issues staying alive in APs ;)
Why would a god, a creature of power beyond the comprehension of any mortal, give powers to Paladins/Druids/Rangers and especially Clerics who worship them?
In a setting where gods are dependent on worship, giving back some of that power is a good way to make it known that you exist and should be worshiped.
In a setting where gods are not dependent on worship, then the most obvious (and usually correct answer) is "for teh lulz".
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If your players go around breaking altars of evil deities, I can see why they have a lot of issues staying alive in APs ;)
I dunno, you really can't present yourself as an avatar of good if you leave areas used for communing with unimaginable evil intact, but at the same time you may get screwed over if you mess with it; really can't win there.
Regarding the whole 'Gods have better things to do than smite adventurers that mess with their shrines' scenario:
Truth be told, I wouldn't even think it needs to be the god that's doling out that punishment personally. They might not even notice.
On the other hand, when dealing with a being that is on a whole different scale of power than anything mortal, I'd be kind of surprised if messing with something infused with its power didn't immediately cause some sort of backlash at the person/people messing things up.
Whether or not the god personally cares about it is debatable, but it seems logical there would be some repercussions for casually messing with deity-level power.
It's basic PR.And that gives adventure writers the right to totally mess with players? This was early in an adventure path. It wasn't just a curse that takes a little time and money to remove, it was a potentially crippling blow that will haunt the character for several levels (essentially the rest of the adventure path). Had I been playing a sorcerer, oracle or bard, rather than a fighter this would have been a fate FAR worse than death.
Screw that. That's bad game design AND terribly cliche.
Dude, if it bothers you that much, don't buy into it and just leave the altars alone. You already know messing with it isn't going to be healthy, but you do it anyway. Stop martyring yourself.
We are all assuming it's the god that has done this to the altar. Perhaps it's really just the power of the worshipers and prayer that has given this area a boon/curse. Or perhaps a cleric did this to reward those that took care of the altar and punish those that'd desecrate it.
If your players go around breaking altars of evil deities, I can see why they have a lot of issues staying alive in APs ;)I dunno, you really can't present yourself as an avatar of good if you leave areas used for communing with unimaginable evil intact, but at the same time you may get screwed over if you mess with it; really can't win there.
Well usually the Avatars of Good will lead with a Consecrate spell or something.
Are you saying the curse breaks the rules mechanically? Or that it's unbalanced in terms of power level? Or that you just don't like it from a story perspective?
Yes to all of the above.
Dude, if it bothers you that much, don't buy into it and just leave the altars alone. You already know messing with it isn't going to be healthy, but you do it anyway. Stop martyring yourself.
It is somewhat out of character for good-aligned characters to let evil alters stand. Having such a mechanic does little more than punish good roleplay.
Not all good characters HAVE to destroy evil altars. My good bard prefers to steer clear of them, not wanting to trifle with the dark forces behind that.
Which adventure path did this happen at?
Carrion Crown 3
Carrion Crown 3
Seriously though I'd like an answer to my question up thread. Which altar was this?
** spoiler omitted **
Same here.
I also searched every instance of the word Jezelda just to make sure it wasn't detailed elsewhere but I didn't see it either.
This is an alter that a Paladin would be obligated to topple, not some city guard a hero has no business even wanting to pick a fight with.
There are CR guidelines. Somewhere internally you folks must have guidelines for monster creation and when it's okay for a negative effect to require a 7th level wizard spell to cure. Unless there's a typo in your guidelines it should be no earlier than it is possible for a PC to know a 7th level wizard spell, and probably significantly later because some parties have sorcerers. It's still requiring a fairly specific party composition. If you don't have one of two specific classes you have to wait for level 17 (18 if your only full divine caster is an oracle) to fix it.
You're not writing a retrogaming plotless deathtrapfest. You're writing adventure paths with plots that people want to get through without the discontinuity of replacing their characters all the time. You need to lay off the out of CR character ruining effects.
So far as me and another person can tell, this is not an official trap. I think you're jumping to conclusions here, especially since I don't know of any other "Out of CR character ruining effects" in APs.
None of this really matters though since this incident with the altar is not in the AP as written. Which, at level 8-9, this curse would be too much. This is in the fault of the GM mishandling the CR, not the writer.
I'd suggest talking to your GM and telling him about your concerns with curses like this. Being permacursed with nothing to cure it except a limited wish at level 8 is too rough.
Are you saying the curse breaks the rules mechanically? Or that it's unbalanced in terms of power level? Or that you just don't like it from a story perspective?
The last is a matter of opinion, but the first two can actually be addressed factually. So: how does it break the rules? And how is it unbalanced?
Not. Again...
I'm gonna kill the bastard.
I've been through enough humiliation.
A paizo employee is defending something that happened to RD in an AP I haven't read. Of course I'm going to assume it's supposed to be there.So far as me and another person can tell, this is not an official trap. I think you're jumping to conclusions here, especially since I don't know of any other "Out of CR character ruining effects" in APs.
For a moment, I read your name as "Altar Lost." XD
I need to find a new distraction and get this crap off my mind.
A paizo employee is defending something that happened to RD in an AP I haven't read. Of course I'm going to assume it's supposed to be there.So far as me and another person can tell, this is not an official trap. I think you're jumping to conclusions here, especially since I don't know of any other "Out of CR character ruining effects" in APs.
That's why I never assume and just look it up myself.
Anyways, not much left to do in this thread since the issue has to be resolved between player and GM. Good luck RD. Take a day to chill out a bit, then talk to your GM.
It's basic PR.And that gives adventure writers the right to totally mess with players? This was early in an adventure path. It wasn't just a curse that takes a little time and money to remove, it was a potentially crippling blow that will haunt the character for several levels (essentially the rest of the adventure path). Had I been playing a sorcerer, oracle or bard, rather than a fighter this would have been a fate FAR worse than death.
Screw that. That's bad game design AND terribly cliche.
I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue in terms of the "rights" of adventure designers. Are you saying the curse breaks the rules mechanically? Or that it's unbalanced in terms of power level? Or that you just don't like it from a story perspective?
If you desecrate the symbol of an all-powerful being, you risk pretty negative consequences, and there are similar mechanics in many RPGs, both computer and pen and paper. If I randomly start attacking guards as a low-level character in Skyrim, all the guards will attack me and kill me. Back in Baldur's Gate, it was possible to attack the Red Wizards when you were a first-level character, which would get you pretty much insta-zapped. If I walked up to an ancient dragon and taunted it in my Pathfinder campaign, I'm pretty sure my GM would have it fry me.
Actions have consequences. :-)
This is an alter that a Paladin would be obligated to topple, not some city guard a hero has no business even wanting to pick a fight with.
There are CR guidelines. Somewhere internally you folks must have guidelines for monster creation and when it's okay for a negative effect to require a 7th level wizard spell to cure. Unless there's a typo in your guidelines it should be no earlier than it is possible for a PC to know a 7th level wizard spell, and probably significantly later because some parties have sorcerers. It's still requiring a fairly specific party...
I don't know the altar he's speaking of specifically, so I can't speak to that altar.
But speaking more generally, I'm not sure why you think that the rules should make it impossible for a low-level character to do/trigger something with severe consequences, as long as it's not something they're required to risk to advance in the game. As I said, even computer/video games, in which the rules tend to be more hard and fast because they are literally hard-coded, don't universally prevent you from taking on enemies you're not prepared to fight. It is quite possible, in many games, to put yourself in a situation in which you're up against a boss you're not supposed to fight for a while, or an NPC who can kill you in one blow (see the examples I cited above).
An adventure path guides you through a series of encounters that ramp up in parallel with your character's growing power (you fight monsters at levels that correspond to your character levels, etc.). But both your characters and your GM have free will, and as the world isn't hard-coded, and because your choices are infinite, the AP can't prevent you from making choices that will lead to you facing a battle you're not ready for. (A lot of APs even have notes to the GM on how to steer players away from situations they're not ready for, but the players can still choose to push forward.)
That's a risk of the sort of collaborative storytelling RPGs represent -- anyone can choose to do anything. And if you choose against where the AP and/or your GM are trying to guide you, you may end up facing something you can't win against.
A paizo employee is defending something that happened to RD in an AP I haven't read. Of course I'm going to assume it's supposed to be there.So far as me and another person can tell, this is not an official trap. I think you're jumping to conclusions here, especially since I don't know of any other "Out of CR character ruining effects" in APs.
I suggest you reread, more carefully, what I wrote.
To be crystal clear, I'm not defending any specific instance of anything. I'm defending the idea of there being negative effects for defacing altars or other symbols of deities.
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While not against the use of altars in this manner, not every altar/shrine needs to have magic protection or comeuppance.
Taking a leak on a Pharasmin Cathedral's altar in Caliphas? Sure.
Some random werewolf cultist's (who may or may not be a cleric )impromtu shrine? Not so much (though as a DM, I may tell the player "you feel a slight sensation of unease as you upend the table/whatever", but slam a curse down? Nah).
@Decius
But an incurable penalty? Those should be exceedingly rare (practically non-existent) and should never come from something as trivial as this.
Oh, no doubt the penalty was far in excess of the "crime", but I wouldn't have objected had he given you a -4 (temporary) penalty or some other form of curse.
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@Decius
** spoiler omitted **
Unspioiler short, it's still a bit heavy handed to throw at the player.
*Kinda ninja'd*