Colossal Damage at Level 6?

[Michael Sayre]

Andy Ferguson wrote:

Everyone is aware that, as it's currently worded, the impact quality doesn't appear to reference the size something actually is, right?

This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons that are not light weapons. An impact weapon delivers a potent kinetic jolt when it strikes, dealing damage as if the weapon were one size category larger. In addition, any bull rush combat maneuver the wielder attempts while wielding the weapon gains a bonus equal to the weapon's enhancement bonus; this includes all bull rush attempts, not only those in which a weapon is used, such as Bull Rush Strike, Shield Slam, or Unseat.

It seems as if all the other size enhance effects (lead blades, strong jaw, Belt of Thunderous Charging) all mention actual size, but Impact doesn't. So treating it the same, as far as it's worded now, may be incorrect.

It still won't stack in the situation given since the other effects do reference actual size. Also the wording, even without the "actual size" text, still only allows the item to function as a size category larger, and would only set the weapon to one size above whatever it normally is. It's not a very relevant distinction no matter which way you look at it.

[Shar Tahl]

It does, though. "As if the weapon were one size category larger" has the exact same function. the other item does not make it larger in any way, shape or form. The weapon is not changing.

Weapon X is Large

Power A treats weapon X as if were one size larger than it is. The weapon is still Large sized but deals damage as a huge weapon.

Power B treats weapon X as if were one size larger than it is. The weapon is still Large sized but deals damage as a huge weapon.

They can't be combined, be cause neither is actually increases the actual size category of the weapon, just the damage for a category up. The base premise of the trigger on the ability is "the weapon is large, shift it to huge" That never changes, so it can't be shifted two spots

[STARGAZER_DRAGON]

As many have stated the bonuses don't stack because both refer to the weapons ACTUAL size which specifically words that it does not include virtual size because it is referring to Actual size

[STARGAZER_DRAGON]

anyone mention at all that both items use most of the same spells to create and the way item creation works the items are basically just applying those spells granted with a twist, argument could be made simply because the spells used to make it are the same there effects won't stack since 2 of the same spell never stacks it's effects they instead grant the better of the 2

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Craft Wondrous Item, bull’s strength, lead blades; Cost 5,000 gp.

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Craft Magic Arms and Armor, bull's strength, lead blades, righteous might or giant form I; Cost +2 bonus

[Ed-Zero]

@mplindustries
It specifically sets the size to the current size plus 1.

That's what I just wrote... Literally. The current size is what it's being set to by the first modifier.

@Ssalarn
The robe isn't increasing size, it is increasing the base damage of a monk's unarmed strike. The monk's fists aren't getting bigger, they're becoming more effective. Effective level increases have absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand. There isn't even a corollary.

I only brought it up to show that I'm not making up virtual levels or size increases or damage.

"This is you making up how things work because that's how you want it to work. The belt says "when the wearer makes a charge attack, her Melee Weapons and Natural Weapons deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are." It's not checking some metaphysical property of the weapon's size it's checking THE WEAPON'S ACTUAL SIZE and allowing it to deal damage as though it were one size category larger than that."

I'm definitely not making things up. What you've stated is what I actually stated up above. The belt does indeed state that it goes off of the "base" size, but Impact does not. It increases it from whatever size it's seen as, virtually or otherwise. If it is considered large, then Impact will change it to huge. You actually agreed with me.

@Andy Ferguson
"Everyone is aware that, as it's currently worded, the impact quality doesn't appear to reference the size something actually is, right?"

I'm glad someone else has noticed this besides me...

@Ssalarn (2nd post)
"It still won't stack in the situation given since the other effects do reference actual size. Also the wording, even without the "actual size" text, still only allows the item to function as a size category larger, and would only set the weapon to one size above whatever it normally is. It's not a very relevant distinction no matter which way you look at it."

You actually already agreed with me, the belt is the only thing checking for actual size here. Impact does not, as Andy pointed out.

@Shar Tahl
"As if the weapon were one size category larger" is not the same thing.. You are correct that the weapon itself does not change, the damage it deals does, which is 2 virtual sizes higher.

"They can't be combined, be cause neither is actually increases the actual size category of the weapon, just the damage for a category up. The base premise of the trigger on the ability is "the weapon is large, shift it to huge" That never changes, so it can't be shifted two spots"

You are right that the actual size never changes, it doesn't need as it's boosted otherwise. First the belt, then the enchant. Belt->Large, Impact->Huge. In this case, it HAS to work like that as the belt only references the original size.

@STARGAZER_DRAGON
As many have stated the bonuses don't stack because both refer to the weapons ACTUAL size which specifically words that it does not include virtual size because it is referring to Actual size

Incorrect Star, Impact as shown by myself and Andy state that only the belt checks the original size, everything else goes off of whatever the current size is.

STAR's 2nd post:
The requirements of it's construction has no meaning as far as rules go, if that was the case then they would have "exactly" the same wording, which they don't.

If someone is still bent out of shape about this, please FAQ it.

[Michael Sayre]

Ed-Zero wrote:

@Ssalarn (2nd post)

"It still won't stack in the situation given since the other effects do reference actual size. Also the wording, even without the "actual size" text, still only allows the item to function as a size category larger, and would only set the weapon to one size above whatever it normally is. It's not a very relevant distinction no matter which way you look at it."

You actually already agreed with me, the belt is...

No, I never agreed with you. You just want to read it that way. If one item is checking to actual size then it doesn't matter what the other is doing, because it still won't go past Actual size. The other would cease to work.

None of that matters though, because both items still only set the size to one category higher. The item isn't getting any bigger. If I set a light switch to on, and then set it to on again, you know what? It's just on. It doesn't become "more on" although someone who thinks it does might be one.

[Ravingdork]

So what do we have that DOES stack? Enlarge person (actually makes the weapon large), the impact property (which doesn't check the weapon's actual size), and one of the other non-stacking effects?

That will get you up to Gargantuan-equivalent damage.

[Shar Tahl]

I the net result changes when you change the order they are applied, then there is a problem. The effect of the belt would be last at all times, because the impact property is attached to the weapon at all time.

The order would always be Impact -> Enlarge -> Belt

1> Large Weapon to start, treated as huge per the weapon quality

2> Enlarge increases base weapon physically to Huge, then is treated as Gargantuan per the weapon quality

3> Belt treats the weapon as one category higher than its original size, which is now huge, changing it to Gargantuan.

There is no way to make the belt trigger first. The result will always gargantuan in this situation.

[Byrdology]

Urist The Unstoppable wrote:

Tieflings have an alternate racial that lets them get the powerful build ability. You give up your spell like ability for it. Pretty nice.

"You have over-sized limbs, allowing you to use Large weapons without penalty."

So a teifling Titan mauler 6 could weild a huge weapon at no penalty, what does a huge great axe look like damage wise? Would lead blades stack with it?

[Trogdar]

It would look like a wagon for your axe instead of strapping it on your back(mostly because it would be bigger than you).

[Michael Sayre]

Byrdology wrote:

Urist The Unstoppable wrote:

Tieflings have an alternate racial that lets them get the powerful build ability. You give up your spell like ability for it. Pretty nice.

"You have over-sized limbs, allowing you to use Large weapons without penalty."

So a teifling Titan mauler 6 could weild a huge weapon at no penalty, what does a huge great axe look like damage wise? Would lead blades stack with it?

Lead blades once more doesn't stack with Impact or the belt, for the same reasons discussed previously. Lead Blades allows the weapon to be treated as one size category larger. You just end up with another layer of redundancy.

Though I guess if you got nailed with a Mage's Disjunction, it'd be worth having all of those back-ups in place.

[Ravingdork]

Shar Tahl, I remember a designer stating (in general) that the stacking order is always that which is most beneficial.

For example, if you fireballed an animated object made of stone, you would cut the damage in half BEFORE reducing it by an amount equal to hardness. If said object has energy resistance cast on it, the damage would be halved before appplying that as well.

[Lab_Rat]

Byrdology wrote:

Urist The Unstoppable wrote:

Tieflings have an alternate racial that lets them get the powerful build ability. You give up your spell like ability for it. Pretty nice.

"You have over-sized limbs, allowing you to use Large weapons without penalty."

So a teifling Titan mauler 6 could weild a huge weapon at no penalty, what does a huge great axe look like damage wise? Would lead blades stack with it?

Only if that huge weapon is light. Titan mauler can not get around the handedness issue. They can wield a Huge light weapon, large one-handed weapon, or a medium two-handed weapon. This is why the titan mauler example is wielding a large bastard sword w/ exotic weapon proficiency.

The biggest you can get it is gargantuan.
Large weapon
enlarge person - huge weapon
Any number of options that treat weapon as one size larger - gargantuan weapon

You could use the vital strike chain or build it around a lance charger to bring it further.

[Michael Sayre]

Ravingdork wrote:

Shar Tahl, I remember a designer stating (in general) that the stacking order is always that which is most beneficial.

For example, if you fireballed an animated object made of stone, you would cut the damage in half BEFORE reducing it by an amount equal to hardness. If said object has energy resistance cast on it, the damage would be halved before appplying that as well.

You happen to have a link?

Also, and I can't stress this enough, it really doesn't matter. Both properties allow the weapon to be treated as though it is one size category larger. The weapon is never changing sizes in this scenario, so no matter what way you juggle it, both properties are setting the weapon size to the same place. You always have a large (or Huge) bastard sword, so properties that allow it to be treated as one size category larger are always going to make it Huge (or Gargantuan). If you had a weapon property, spell, or effect that said "increase the effective size of the weapon by +1 size category" or something similar, you could potentially have something, but that's not how the abilities are written. The abilities don't say they stack, JJ has stated they shouldn't stack, they really don't stack.

[Ravingdork]

I'm afraid I don't have a link available as it was a while ago, perhaps in the v3.5 days.

[CDR Derf]

to the person asking for a rules cite for why they don't stake in the face of all the other evidence. Please refer to page 11 pf the Core Rulebook; Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to
checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type,
and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not
cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus
granted applies.

Now while these various things don't call out a specific name bonus it falls to being an un-typed bonus. Since they all read the same, even impact weapon property, they are all the same bonus and only the greater one adds. they would not stack by the rules.

[Ravingdork]

If they are to be considered bonuses at all, would they not be untyped bonuses, and thus stack, CDR Derf?

[lantzkev]

this is a situation where it's not a matter of typed vs untyped (they are untyped)

it's that they both refer to the actual size of the weapon and increase it from there.

Polymorph effects will increase it's actual size

and regardless of how many untyped bonuses you have that say "it acts as one size bigger than it's actual size" they are all modifying that "actual size"

[STARGAZER_DRAGON]

to get extreamly percise you would have to decide the order the enhancements took place, From that angle I would still not stack it though as I would apply constant bonuses before circumstantial ones.

Thus enlarge, now huge weapon and impact are always active, the belt applies to only during a charge thus the belt would apply last, since the belt uses actual weapon size it ignores the impact thus not stacking.

A argument could be made however that impact is not applied until the weapon hits a target thus it might stack with the belts already virtual larger weapon since it does not state actual weapon size though it is pretty obvious that isn't the intent.

There could also be the common counter argument that since the book states that the same effects do not stack the effect of as if it was one size larger would not stack in the same fashion that a speed weapon does not stack with enlarge and a potion of enlarge does not stack with a spell of enlarge ect ect there is a zillion better examples of the same effect not stacking and at it's core the effect of as if it was one size larger is the same effect.

best method would be to pay for a poly-morph and a permanency or some other kind of method of making you into a large creature permanently before drinking the enlarge potion thus obtaining the colossal without the belt

[STARGAZER_DRAGON]

actualy rereading it again I still have to say they can't stack reguardless of how the enhancements where placed even if they did stack

Impact
dealing damage as if the weapon were one size category larger.

Belt of Thunderous Charging
her melee weapons and natural weapons deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they [u]actually[/u] are.

Both clearly state that the weapon Deals damage as if it was larger. Neither raise the size category or even grant a virtual size.
Both effects directly refer to the weapon not increases the weapons current damage but rather increasing the weapons.

in short since both refer to the weapons damage they exclude any bonuses to the weapons size that do not actually change the weapon itself. To try to further explain even though I know it will be disregarded, the impact generates a kinetic force that deals damage based on the specific weapon if is enchanting, thus it only cares about the weapon it is placed on, not any other outside effects.

Given that the belt magnifies your charging momentum of the character during a charge and thus does not actually effect the weapon itself there is no way for impact to effect the belt bonus since it only calculate the kinetic force based on the weapon.

Now I would allow the belt to stack except for the fact that it has the specific rider on it that it only modifies the damage based on the weapons ACTUAL size.

So impact only cares about the weapon itself not outside forces that would otherwise increase that damage and the belt only cares about the weapons actual size it forces both bonuses to do the same thing treating the weapon only 1 size category larger.

Really the reason they can't possibly stack is based in what the magic itself is targeting and why it increases the damage. I could see a DM allowing it for fluff reasons I mean reasonably the charge should not have the rider of ""weapons actual size"" but the designers added that line specifically to avoid this type of situation, like many other spells and effects it was added to prevent bonuses from effects like impact from stacking, it is the same reason they add riders to effects like keen and improved crit to prevent them from stacking because in 3.5 such txt was not added so even though the bonus was the same type people assumed ti came from different sources and therefor should stack.

It is clear that the designed intent of the belt was such as to prevent it from stacking with impact. Any argument to go around the very clear intent is just a player or DM tring to find a loophole and way to avoid the designed intent, doing this will just lead to the game beginning to brake. If this was including 3.5 content I woulda said just take monkey grip and make the weapon a size larger and be done with it but they nixed that feat in a attempt to also avoid things like this

[Akerlof]

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

In addition, the 4D8 can do as much as 32, which is painful, but as low as 4, which is quite weak.

The reason why you shouldn't put all of your emphasis on your damage dice is because the variant results you get from it can lead you to your death.

Off topic a little, but the more dice you roll, the more likely you are to hit the average.

For example, rolling 1d8, the probability of getting 1 = 5 = 8 = 12.5%

But, rolling 4d8, the probability of getting 4 is 0.02% (1 in 4096) while getting 18 is 8.9% (344 in 4096.) And you have about a 50% chance of rolling between 16 and 20, a bit over 90% of rolling between 12 and 24. Much less variability than just rolling one die.

It's still probably not as good as a flat increase, but it's not as bad as it looks at first brush.

[Silent Saturn]

Lab_Rat wrote:

Byrdology wrote:

Urist The Unstoppable wrote:

Tieflings have an alternate racial that lets them get the powerful build ability. You give up your spell like ability for it. Pretty nice.

"You have over-sized limbs, allowing you to use Large weapons without penalty."

So a teifling Titan mauler 6 could weild a huge weapon at no penalty, what does a huge great axe look like damage wise? Would lead blades stack with it?

Only if that huge weapon is light. Titan mauler can not get around the handedness issue. They can wield a Huge light weapon, large one-handed weapon, or a medium two-handed weapon. This is why the titan mauler example is wielding a large bastard sword w/ exotic weapon proficiency.

The biggest you can get it is gargantuan.
Large weapon
enlarge person - huge weapon
Any number of options that treat weapon as one size larger - gargantuan weapon

You could use the vital strike chain or build it around a lance charger to bring it further.

I think you're forgetting the fact that he's a Tiefling. Tieflings have the optional racial ability to wield weapons one size category larger than themselves.

So, normally a Titan Mauler can wield a Large one-handed weapon in two hands, but if it's a Tiefling, he can wield a Huge one-handed weapon in two hands. So he takes Bastard Sword proficency and wields a Huge Bastard Sword. Then he enchants it with Impact to make it deal damage as if Gargantuan. Then an Enlarge Person spell actually makes the sword gargantuan, so Impact lets it deal Colossal damage.

[Cao Phen]

Which raical ability are you talking about, or is it a feat, a trait?

[STARGAZER_DRAGON]

might use a Scizore instead of a bastard sword in order to save a feet the Scizore is a 1 handed martial weapon that deals 1D10 damage with x2 crit.

Large version becomes 2D8 two handed, Then take the Improved Lighten Weapon, and lighten weapon. This swaps the weapon use down 1 size thus making it a 1 handed weapon so you can then use a huge Scizore in two hands, add impact to make it count as a gargantuan, then enlarge and it becomes colossal. Of cource this also assumes the 3rd party kobold press feat is allowed, if not then use race Tieflings with the Fiendish Heritage feat and choose -- 16 You have oversized limbs, allowing you to use Large weapons without penalty.

without penalty should remove the requirement of a large weapon from using a hand slot larger as well as the -2 from it, then when you make it huge it would require 2 hands to use and add a -2 penalty.

this allows the collasal sized damage without the belt and removes that debate

[Cao Phen]

It really does not remove the debate due to the conditionals that is applied to the situation.

As you said, the Improved Lighten Weapon is a third-party feat, so if the DM is going strictly with the core rulebooks or someone is playing in Pathfinder Society, those would not be allowed.

You can have anybody make any feat, any spell, any item that would do the same thing, that is what homebrewing is all about and creativity is always allowed. But if this is going for items that are written in black and white from the core books, as well as maybe the items from companion booklets from Paizo, then it sort of like comparing dice rolling versus point buy for setting ability scores.

[STARGAZER_DRAGON]

teifling and the heritage feat for oversize arm however is not 3d party so you can use that and still avoid needing the belt for the desired outcome

Edit -

to further explain:

Race Tieflings

LVL 1 feat Fiendish Heritage - 16 You have oversized limbs, allowing you to use Large weapons without penalty.

Use Scizore -Normaly a 1 handed martial weapon that deals 1D10 damage

Up it's size to Huge - Teifling over sized arms allows you to ignore the first size increase penalty meaning a large Scizore would still be a 1 handed weapon and a huge would be a two handed weapon that implied a -2 penalty when used.

Craft a ring of enlarge making you and your weapon 1 size category larger meaning your weilding a gargantuan Scizore

Add impact to the Scizore making it deal damage as if it was a colossal weapon.

Now your effectively always wielding a colossal Scizore

[Peet]

The only problem with a Scizore is that it includes a sleeve in which your arm goes, so I don't see how you could use it two-handed. I don't know if there are rules on the subject but your GM might disallow that.

[STARGAZER_DRAGON]

hmm guess you are right, exotic weapon it is then, ahh well 1 more feat used for same effect.

[Peet]

Heirloom weapon trait? Of course, you better not lose it...

Edit: actually, heirloom weapon does not apply to exotic weapons, so never mind.

[STARGAZER_DRAGON]

could also simply make a belt of elemental body 4 thus making you huge then with enlarge and impact you could also reach colossal damage, plus of course get the benefits of elemental body 4, earth elemental should be able to use the sword still just fine, Dr 5/- is nice as is the immunities.

[Byrdology]

Still, a tie- fighter (yeah, I went there...) could get this colossal dmg dice, and still get all the static bonuses everyone was talking about above.

Or...

You could take the same teifling, make him an alchemist with the vestigial arm discovery x2 giving him four large arms, and then you can get that colossal greatsword that needs four hands to use.

Note: I say colossal, but I mean huge with impact and enlarge person. IE legal stacking

[STARGAZER_DRAGON]

though I and most here have agreed that the OP stacking of the belt would not work there is a ton of other ways to get the same effect. To that end I could see a gm allowing the belt to stack but also you might as well just use one of the zillion other ways to get the effect specially since there more reliable and much are better or just flat cooler

[STARGAZER_DRAGON]

oh also at slightly higher lvl you could take the summoner and the archtype that forms your edilon around you then take the size evolutions and extra arms ect to gain the weapon desired along with a few other cool effects and have the spells to cats on yourself to buff you whenever u wanted.

[lantzkev]

That'd require you to go 8 levels summoner...

[Peet]

There's also the problem with the size of the weapon itself.

Let me explain: a normal one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder.

So if you went for a tiefling Titan Mauler, you would use a weapon for a huge creature, so as a medium creature you would be wielding a weapon that is size large. If you are enlarged then you end up being large with a gargantuan weapon.

Now consider how much space a large object takes up. You would not be able to use this object in a 5' wide passage, because it is ten feet long. It can become difficult to get it around corners or through narrow spaces. Obviously since your strategy is to become enlarged, you will do well in wide open spaces, but you will really be hosed in narrow passages.

[Shar Tahl]

Ravingdork wrote:

Shar Tahl, I remember a designer stating (in general) that the stacking order is always that which is most beneficial.

For example, if you fireballed an animated object made of stone, you would cut the damage in half BEFORE reducing it by an amount equal to hardness. If said object has energy resistance cast on it, the damage would be halved before appplying that as well.

That is also something that is all happening at once. This is a situation where it would be applied in sequence, one round at a time. There is a definite order of operation.

[Charender]

Byrdology wrote:

Still, a tie- fighter (yeah, I went there...) could get this colossal dmg dice, and still get all the static bonuses everyone was talking about above.

Or...

You could take the same teifling, make him an alchemist with the vestigial arm discovery x2 giving him four large arms, and then you can get that colossal greatsword that needs four hands to use.

Note: I say colossal, but I mean huge with impact and enlarge person. IE legal stacking

If you went this route, you can go Vivisectionist. Colossal weapon + sneak attack = even more dice

[Mr Dice Guy]

I am a little confused.... how does over sized arms change the size of the weapon you are able to wield? Looking at the rules, to me it just says it removes the penalty for doing so. That would lead me to believe that I may only wield a large sized bastard sword (without the -2 penalty), not increase the size to huge....
Was there an FAQ/Dev input that addressed this, or did I miss a crazy discussion?

PS Who says fixed damage is better than MOAR DICE! Furious finish changes MOAR DICE! into static damage, therefore, MOAR DICE! is clearly superior.... especially when vital striking with gargantuan bastard swords for lots of maximized dice! (16d8=128) :p

[Michael Sayre]

@ Mr. Dice Guy

I was going to point this out as well. The tiefling racial trait does not in any way impact the maximum size of the weapons you are able to wield. It merely removes the penalty for wielding a large sized weapon. You are still limited to the same range of weapons as everyone else as discussed here.

[Mr Dice Guy]

@Ssalarn Thank you for helping clear that up :)

[STARGAZER_DRAGON]

would be in the idea that the effort it takes to use a weapon increasing would be part of the penalty for using a larger weapon. Ruffly based on the fact that it did not say you do not suffer the usual attack penalty, rather saying you do not suffer the usual penalty, further by the fact that having larger arms that would allow you to easily wield larger weapons would make sence to also not require more effort to use.

this is also taken as the intent based on feats such as monkey grip or lighten weapon feat. There is a slew of other feats and effects that allow larger weapon use and non simply remove the -2 attack penalty which is a pretty small draw back for using larger weapons. Granted none of these things where ever ment to stack into you using huge arse weapons.

That all being said I could see the argument to counter allowing the enlarged arms to actually work like larger arms. I would personaly still refer back to the Synthesist summoner with the evolutions for

Improved Damage (1 point)
Reach (1 points)
Slam (1 point)
Improved Natural Attack (feat)
Energy Attacks (2 Points)
Large (10 points for huge size) (LV 13 summoner)

Only uses 1 feat up so u have more remaining, you get the summoner spells for enlarge and other buffs, the edilons HP adds to the summons basicaly, You use edilons phisical scores and BAB thus u will have 37 str for a prety nice damage and attack boost. You will do colossal slam damage +1D6 energy with a massive reach, Technically if you enlarge you will do more then colossal damage, then add in the amulet that allows unarmed strikes to be enchanted forget the name but is mainly for monks to effectivly have magical weapons, add impact to that to make your fists slam impact. this means u are gargantuan size normaly with impact making u effectivly colossal plus evolution increasing damage by 1 size and feat increasing it again by 1 size. Thus your slam is = to colossal ++ damage plus 1D6 energy, take 3 more levels to be able to split into 2 and both keap all the enchantments and effects of the first .... yes now this is definatly broken, stretch a touch more and u could wast 2 feats and your last 2 evolution points to get a extra +2 STR but thats probably a wast at this point better to take weapon focus slam and some other nice feats to up damage and hit chances. of cource if your later in a small area your damage is gone but then u got summon monster to slip you buy for those situation and fight to stay in the open places