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I took over running the Shattered Star AP. The previous GM was too generous with PC stat generation. He agrees with me. Adjusting the module for each encounter is getting tedious for me. So, I have decided to adjust their stats to a reasonable point buy.
The party is experienced with 3.5, new to Pathfinder, and not overly cautious or tactical. I want the campaign to be thrilling enough for the PCs, but not too stressful for them. There are four player with possibly a fifth coming.
For my part, I want to be able to play through the story without having to adjust the difficulty level up so often.
I am going to adjust the PC stats to either 20 point buy or 25 point buy. My question is which point buy would be best 20 or 25? Any advice would be welcome.
The players will have more fun with 25.
All of our AP characters have had a base of 25 points. It is not anywhere NEAR 'easy' at that level.
Quite simply, the difference between 20 and 25 really doesn't amount for much when dice still rule the table ;)
I'm playing Shattered Star right now, 15 pt build, we started with 4 and added a player. We're having lots of fun.
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APs are set up to be played with 4 PCs with a 15 point buy.
My group went through Council of Thieves with a 25 point buy with 4 PCs, and pretty much crushed it. This was with the DM increasing the challenges of the encounters. We had 2 very experienced players and 2 not so experienced players. Our characters were not optimized, but we knew what our strengthens were. The only deaths we had were from save or die effects.
We are going to run Carrion Crown next. Our DM gave us a 25 point buy even though we warned him he was being too generous. We just didn't want the (newbie) DM to get upset at how easy the encounters were, then start bumping up everything to "get even." Then it just becomes a Cold War between PCs & DM.
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Even a 25 point buy will be a drastic reduction in stat points. So, it might be enough. The party class balance is so-so: 2 rangers, 1 cleric-1/ranger-2, 1 cavalier. The fifth player may be a sorcerer or alchemist. Also, they are not the types to check every five feet for traps. So, there is a good opportunity for the game to have a good pace with the right difficulty balance.
I find people give starting ability scores far more weight then they really have. The difference of a +3 mod or a +4 mod on a variance of 20 (D20 of course.) is barely even statistically relevant. The only place it has real value is where it is not governed by a D20. So a THF's damage will see a 1-2 per hit boost.
So if the group is melee heavy then perhaps you might need to give the baddies a small HP boost here and there.
All APs actually assume the players are around 20 points, not 15. So I'd say 20 is good enough. 25 isn't that much higher honestly.
Even a 25 point buy will be a drastic reduction in stat points. So, it might be enough. The party class balance is so-so: 2 rangers, 1 cleric-1/ranger-2, 1 cavalier. The fifth player may be a sorcerer or alchemist. Also, they are not the types to check every five feet for traps. So, there is a good opportunity for the game to have a good pace with the right difficulty balance.
Ohh whoa a 5th player? Now that is a problem as more then 4 players will break AP's far more then point buy ever could. In that case I would pretty much maximize every baddies HP and perhaps throw dodge and save feats around here and there.
Yeah, if even character who have some epic rolled stats nearly died a few times in my Kingmaker run, I doubt 25 point buy is too high for an AP. Then again, some of the encounters might become easier to deal with in the beginning but it usually picks up real fast from there, more so in some APs and less in others.
My group has always used 25-point buy and we have never survived past the third module of an adventure path, we rarely make it past the second, and there is almost always one or more PC deaths before the end of the first.
No, it is not too high.
The APs are written for 4 players with a 15-point buy and, from experience, I wouldn't go beyond a 20-point buy. Especially if you could eventually have 5 players.
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My group has always used 25-point buy and we have never survived past the third module of an adventure path, we rarely make it past the second, and there is almost always one or more PC deaths before the end of the first.
No, it is not too high.
And?!? Even my casual game groups can do APs just fine with 15 point buys (albeit I do usually give 20 now as they have more fun with 20). Even at the current 20, it is kind of a cakewalk for them in large chunks of the APs unless I increase the challenge.
So yeah I would say 25 is too high. Hell 20 is kinda high even.
Count me in with the 'not too high' faction.
The effective difference in stat modifiers from 15 to 20 to 25 points is considerably lower than appears at first glance.
Will it make things easier? Yes, by all means. Doubly so if the players don't use the additional points for squeezing out yet another point for their high stats, but shore up on their weaknesses.
Will it break the game? Not likely. Stat effects have a drastically lesser impact on the game than character build, equipment mongering and tactics will have.
The fifth player, though, will have significant impact on the game difficulty. Action economy should never be underestimated.
So, if you got five players at 25 points, and are under the impression that your eoncounters are getting LOLstomped, you might consider upping several (if not all) encounters by one CR (by adding the 'advanced' or 'fiendish' (or whatever seems fitting for the situation) template to the baddies, by increasing the number of mooks by some 50%, by giving a boss monster some kind of lieutenant / offspring / whatever (rated 2 CR lower than the boss itself).
APs were written for 4 PCs at 15 point buy. Since you don't want to challenge them too much 20 pb would probably work out fine. Especially since they will have a fifth party member.
20 point buy is what PFS was built around.
Is there a place I can find the official Paizo statement on AP and character point buys, etc.?
This is the party they built?
Ranger 3
Ranger 3
Ranger 2, Cleric 1
Cavalier 3
Fine, give them 25 points. They're going to need all the help they can get.
My rule of thumb was 25pt buy with no dump stats (nothing below 10). It seemed to work out well.
Personally I prefer a higher point buy with a cap on the maximum allowed value pre-ratial modifiers. Like 25 points but nothing over a 16 before racial mods. Let the Mad classes fill out their stats, but dont let Sad classes just poor everything into one.
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I think it depends on the players and the GM. Do your guys want a challenge? Then 20. My home game is full of guys who want to do more steam roll with the occasional epic moment where things get a little rough. So to give them that I went 25 and I'm a little more generous with my items.
Also I depends on what games they like more of. Three of my players LOVE 4e DnD so they want an easier time and more healing. Thus more niceness from the DM.
Can anyone cite the "APs are made for X point buy party of X players" statement(s)?
Huh. Learn something new every day. I thought APs were made with 20-point buy in mind.
The group I played with started playing with 25 point buys. We were fairly optimized and the dm would tweak the encounters to make up for it. We also correspondingly got more loot, which made us more powerful. Much of the time the dm had to roll high (20's even) to hit some of us. We started council of thieves with a 15 point buy, and there is less tweaking and loot with more give and take between mobs and pcs. Good luck
My groups' common generation rules are 25-point-buy but stats aren't allowed to be below 10 without special DM permission. That ensures that you don't get dump-stats and through-the-roof stats with max/min games.
We're doing Legacy of Fire with 15 point buys - it's challenging enough to be fun, but very doable.
More important than point buy, I think, is the actual mix of classes.
Adventure Paths are developed for 15 pt buy and non optimized characters. I've never been able to convince player to play anything less than 25 pt buy.
I've had challenging APs though. I tend to look at the situation for the encounter and avoid the advice in the AP. I modify NPC a bit to optimize them, stuff re-selecting bad guy wizards spells. Changing the feats a bit. Sometime I modify the terrain a bit to give the bad guys the advantage. Seemed to work well enough in King Maker. It is more work for the GM though.
Even a 25 point buy will be a drastic reduction in stat points.
Ok, I'm curious!
What point buy did they use originally? Between '25 is a drastic reduction' and 'the original DM was very generous'... I'm really curious :)
Most I've ever rolled up was a 29 point character, and while he's a little MAD... he still has plenty of weak spots. AND he's nearly died twice by third level.
Now I'm curious... What would you rate the difference between a 15 point party, a 20 point party, and a 25 point party in terms of CR per encounter? Is a +5 point buy big enough to justify a +1 to CR? What about a +10 buy?
Peet
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Even a 25 point buy will be a drastic reduction in stat points.Ok, I'm curious!
What point buy did they use originally? Between '25 is a drastic reduction' and 'the original DM was very generous'... I'm really curious :)
Most I've ever rolled up was a 29 point character, and while he's a little MAD... he still has plenty of weak spots. AND he's nearly died twice by third level.
Phantom, the 'effective' point buy equivalent was somewhere between high-50s and mid-60s... rolled off screen... re-rolling 1's...
We're running a RotRL and our gm let us run gestalts.
When it came time to pick attribute method we decided we'd go for
Roll 3d6 for each attribute, then you have 6 more d6 to apply to those results.
You had to add the dice to the attribute before you rolled it and the max was 18 even if you rolled over.
The gm had us reroll any 1's. (big mistake)
I ended up with 18 18 18 18 10 10 which was a 61 point buy where one of the 18s was a 16 before my +2 for human.
Someone else in the party ended up with some 'relatively' pretty horrible stats even with rerolling 1s.
After the first day the GM was so disheartened I voluntarily brought 2 of the 18's down to 10s on my own sheet. Call that an 18 16 10 10 10 10 for a 27 point buy..
Our gm told everyone else in the group that they could make an edit to their characters if they felt like it as long as they followed suit and went to a 27 point buy.
The only one who didnt change was the guy who rolled poorly. Now he's got the best attributes of everyone in the group.
I also took the opportunity to change my pair of 18's as well so now i'm on 27 point buy but its 11 15 15 18 14 10 with my 2 points for human in the 18 and 1 point from hitting level 4.
But Yeah. Started with 61. Since the one guy who isnt willing to dial down to it is the one guy who whined to reroll 1's during our original rolls, our gm says from here on out we're using point buy so nobody has to feel cheated.
Drama!
Assuming some level of optimization:
25 point buy is high if you have:
Wizards, Clerics, Druids, Witches, or Half Elf full casters with access to Paragon Surge.
25 point buy is iffy if you have
Sorcerers, Oracles, or Summoners
25 point buy is perfect if the party consists of members of classes not mentioned above.
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Certain classes (like the monk) can be wildly more effective on a 25 point buy than on a 15 point buy, particularly at lower levels, but player skill, party balance, and system mastery on the part of the players and the GM will always be a bigger factor. AP's are balanced for a party of non-optimized 15 point buy characters though, so it's not like you need 25 point optimized characters to succeed.
Now I'm curious... What would you rate the difference between a 15 point party, a 20 point party, and a 25 point party in terms of CR per encounter? Is a +5 point buy big enough to justify a +1 to CR? What about a +10 buy?
Peet
Ok, I'll say it again: the point level used has no impact on balance.
Raising the APL is all about what the players can handle, and how well/bad the DM is able to challenge the players. A group of good players will require a higher APL regardless if they used a 15 or 25pt buy. A group with a couple (few) of bad players will require a lower APL.
A weak DM will need to use a higher APL regardless of the point buy level. A good DM will not have to increase the APL, and may even need to lower it.
Having a stat at +6, with a couple of others at +4, will not change encounter balance when compared to having one stat at +4 with the others at +2.
The only issue with point buy is whether players can play MAD classes with a 25 point buy or are "forced" to play SAD toons using 15 points.
All other things being equal, which group is more powerful? A party of 15pt buys or 25 pt buys?
I'm not trying to be confrontational, but just throwing out the Weak DM vs Good DM comments, please realize that super tailoring AP's for some DM's is not an option. We have full time jobs, kids, and other stuff to do.
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Paizo however seems to think that they are just fine fits for PFS 20 point builds, at least the parts that they are setting up for Sanctioned Play.I found it. Hope this works.
APs are 15 point buys for four PCs
It works.
it should be noted that PFS is not an AP and they are designed differently.
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Pathfinder however is sanctioning parts of the AP for society use, but parts they are using aren't being altered in any way.it should be noted that PFS is not an AP and they are designed differently.Paizo however seems to think that they are just fine fits for PFS 20 point builds, at least the parts that they are setting up for Sanctioned Play.I found it. Hope this works.
APs are 15 point buys for four PCs
It works.
Unless there's a pretty big change though, those AP's are being run as though you're using pre-built characters, meaning you apply the experience and everything over to level-appropriate PFS characters and not all PFS character creation rules apply. And PFS is designed to introduce people to the game, so there's probably no reason to completely restructure their character generation rules or put out specialty ones over a 5 point difference. It's just an argument that doesn't really have any bearing on the conversation.
If you can make it work with 15, and 25 isn't that much better, I'd just go with 25.
With more points, it's often easier to fit a character concept. For instance, I'd kill for two more points on my 20 point buy Barbarian so I can take Knowledge: Nature and be more of an outdoorsman. But I'm already spreading around my skill points quite a bit.