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Can a rogue make sneak attacks from within partial concealment (such as obscuring mist, blur, displacement), or only from within total concealment (such as invisibility)?
Note that I'm referring to where the rogue is, not the opponent.
Hopefully a quick easy question, slightly related to this very interesting thread.
Can a rogue make sneak attacks from within partial concealment (such as obscuring mist, blur, displacement), or only from within total concealment (such as invisibility)?
sure as long as the opponent is flat-footed or the rogue is flanking the opponent... concealment doesn't grant you the ability to deny your opponent their dex bonus simply by virtue of having it (as opposed to total concealment such as invisibility which does grant that perk).
(note that in the case of obscuring mist, the opponent would have partial concealment from the rogue as well, which would mean that no sneak attack was possible).
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Sorry - my question assumes no flank or flat-footedness, and no concealment for the opponent.
Where is it mentioned in the rulebook about requiring the total concealment? My guess is somewhere it says total concealment makes them flat-footed, making sneak attack viable?
actually no because sneak attack mentions you cannot sneak someone with concealment.
However , you can sneak attack someone with Displacement because Displacement is MISS CHANCE (not cconcealment ) . So many times done wrong in the past by me , my gm's and other people too !
(note that in the case of obscuring mist, the opponent would have partial concealment from the rogue as well, which would mean that no sneak attack was possible).
Unless you have the Shadow Strike feat.. Which would allow you to deal precision damage (sneak attack) if someone has concealment.
Shadow Strike (Combat)
You accurately strike even those you cannot clearly see.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can deal precision damage, such as sneak attack damage, against targets with concealment (but not total concealment).
Sorry - my question assumes no flank or flat-footedness, and no concealment for the opponent.
Where is it mentioned in the rulebook about requiring the total concealment? My guess is somewhere it says total concealment makes them flat-footed, making sneak attack viable?
It doesn't it is inferred from the invisibility modifiers in the Attack Roll Modifiers table (Table 8-5) which notes that in addition to +2 to hit with melee or ranged attacks your opponent is denied his or her dex bonus to AC... no place in the rules does it say such for a character attacking from (non total) concealment.
However , you can sneak attack someone with Displacement because Displacement is MISS CHANCE (not cconcealment ) . So many times done wrong in the past by me , my gm's and other people too !
I dissagree... the spell says as if it had total concealment. So it should be treated as such accept for the fact that it can be 'targeted normally' (ie you don't have to try to guess what square it is in).
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and does everything as if it were a duck it should work like a duck unless the rules specifically say otherwise (ie. unless rules flat out state 'displacement does not prevent a rogues sneak attack' or some such).
I disagree with the disagree. Total Concealment usually gives a 50% miss chance, and that's what the spell is referring to.. it never says it actually gives total concealment, in fact, it specifically says you can target the creature normally. Similar to how an Oracle with the sight curse can see 'as if they had darkvision'.. but they don't actually gain darkvision, so they don't qualify for feats were darkvision is a requirement.
Displacement
The subject of this spell appears to be about 2 feet away from its true location. The creature benefits from a 50% miss chance as if it had total concealment. Unlike actual total concealment, displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the creature normally. True seeing reveals its true location and negates the miss chance.
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Okay, my understanding is that even total concealment doesn't allow sneak attack, unless that total concealment comes from invisibility.
- Total concealment (and partial concealment) incurs a miss chance which has no bearing on sneak attack requirements.
- Invisibility incurs a flatfooted penalty, which is the sneak attack requirement. Concealment doesn't come into it.
- A successful stealth roll while concealed can make the opponent flatfooted (presumably even while in the edge of an Obscuring Mist cloud 5ft away from them - you're still concealed).
Clarifying this further, the rules are located in:
- Classes > Rogue > Sneak Attack class feature
- Combat > Combat Modifiers > footnote on Attack Modifiers table
- Combat > Concealment > Total Concealment (nothing mentioned about flatfooted being granted)
- Skills > Stealth
Thanks for your input guys, feel free to continue hashing out your displacement arguments :)
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(note that in the case of obscuring mist, the opponent would have partial concealment from the rogue as well, which would mean that no sneak attack was possible).Unless you have the Shadow Strike feat.. Which would allow you to deal precision damage (sneak attack) if someone has concealment.
Shadow Strike (Combat)
You accurately strike even those you cannot clearly see.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can deal precision damage, such as sneak attack damage, against targets with concealment (but not total concealment).
This actually complicates it further. The rogue still needs to either flank or get them flatfooted to make the sneak attack; being in a cloud of Obscuring Mist alone doesn't cut it even with this feat.
in fact, it specifically says you can target the creature normally.
Yeah, I responded to that it means that you don't have to guess target a 5 foot square and hope the displaced creature is in it (the normal process of targeting a creature with full concealment) instead you can just attack the creature (with the 50% miss chance), also you can target a displaced creature with ranged Target: spells (something that you normally can't do to a creature with full concealment) because target: spells require line of sight.
look at it this way, blur prevents sneak attacks, displacement is a more powerful version of blur, ergo it should prevent sneak attacks as well.