Goblin Squad Member
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Most people want to role-play a young, attractive, well built hero/heroine. And they need to be allowed to. But not everyone does...
This is a plea to allow those of us that want to, to be old, ugly, mis-shapen or horribly scarred. Not just the usual MMO option of a dashing scar across one cheek but something to make the hags, grouches and assorted unpleasant characters that bring a world to life.
So please let me be old, wrinkly, ugly and fat. After all without some people like that all the beautiful young heroes are just going to look like clones.
Food for thought.
Ruf
Hear, hear!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Great sugguestion. I am all for more PC customization, ugly should be an option as well as beauty.
I also really want both beauty and ugly options to be avaialble regardless of ability scores and not tied to charisma. It's possible to be incredibly beautiful and have the personality of a warthog or to be unnatractive physically and have a great force of character.
Mass Effect had a number of really macabre faces possible... To the point of "I can't tell if that is supposed to be a human" and "Aaaaaaaaaugh I can never unsee that"...
Hahaha skimpy armor+ugly= hilarity. I Definitely would like for it not to be tied to a stat particularly charisma.
Oh, it's totally worth it - you should see the reactions my female dwarf rogue in WoW gets, and she's only in a low-cut shirt/bodice plus full-coverage leather pants!
Also, agreed on not tying looks to charisma. Chiassa will likely have a high charisma, but I really don't want to play her as a beautiful flower - just a charming, gotta-love-me type.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Great sugguestion. I am all for more PC customization, ugly should be an option as well as beauty.
I also really want both beauty and ugly options to be avaialble regardless of ability scores and not tied to charisma. It's possible to be incredibly beautiful and have the personality of a warthog or to be unnatractive physically and have a great force of character.
I can understand not wanting to punish PCs for how they look, by tying their appearance to an ability score. On the other hand sometimes it would make sense for appearance to have an effect on some ability scores (I believe the MMOs ability score might be different from the table top version though).
For example my friends brought up that in the TT game appearances don't affect ability scores. A friend of mine immediately (as a joke) mentioned that his next character would be a morbidly obese Dex. 20 rogue. Waddling around everwhere out of breath to get people to lower thier guard, then BOOM backflipping, w. finessing ext... The DM who had strong simulationist tendencies was NOT AMUSED. ;P
I'm not sure having appearence not an effect in game could impede immersion, but might be better for the game overall.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hahaha skimpy armor+ugly= hilarity. I Definitely would like for it not to be tied to a stat particularly charisma.Oh, it's totally worth it - you should see the reactions my female dwarf rogue in WoW gets, and she's only in a low-cut shirt/bodice plus full-coverage leather pants!
Also, agreed on not tying looks to charisma. Chiassa will likely have a high charisma, but I really don't want to play her as a beautiful flower - just a charming, gotta-love-me type.
I agree. It seems that in the 32 years I have been playing table top RPG's, people seem to think Charisma = beautiful. One can be unattractive yet charismatic. Most of histories more infamous people have been very charismatic but either very plain or even downright ugly. I won't mention them by name, since I think everyone knows who I mean. I recall when D&D, via Dragon (it could even have been The Dragon as it was originally known) suggested a 7th attribute to measure attractiveness (iirc, it was Comeliness), but which never really caught on and thus was never officially adopted. I could see a Paladin or a Bard being very charismatic but visibly unattractive (hell anyone could be - look at the "Imp" in Game of Thrones, particularly in the books following his horrific wounds. A schemer, charismatic and ugly as all hell with no nose and a massive mass of scar tissue making up much of his face on top of being a "dwarf" with malformed legs.)
Certainly would add some depth to RP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've also brought this up, at least partially, in another thread. I highly advocate having height, weight, and age options at character creation. I've also suggested phenotype (meaning skeletal structure and weight distribution in this case) options and the possibility of deformity options. Having some ugly face and skin options is also a great idea. Combine these all together with standard eye, skin, and hair options, and you can get most of the "ugly" you want. Some examples:
Hag:
Average height, low weight, high age.
Pear-shaped phenotype, hunchback deformity.
Extra wrinkly face and skin.
White eyes, pale greenish skin, scraggly grey hair.
Tyrion:
Very low height, average weight, average age.
Average phenotype, stumpy limb deformity.
Nose-less face plus scars, normal skin.
Mismatched eyes, normal skin, normal hair.
Raistlin:
Average height, low weight, average age.
Slender phenotype, no deformity.
Gaunt face, shiny skin.
Golden eyes, golden skin, long white hair.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem is how to get clothing and armor to fit body deformities? We may have to settle with facial deformities unless GW can spare the time to design armor models for such diversity.
I'd be happy with a basic polygon model and the clothing/armor option just be a mesh that maps to the base model the way that CoH did it. Yes you could have problems with clipping in CoH, but the system gave you a plethora of options.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well any armor with designs would get warped with that. Any ornate emblem would become a blurred mess
Eh, a lot of the chest emblems you could put on characters in CoH were pretty ornate, and distortion wasn't a problem on them, even if you went with maximum chest slider size on a female or huge model.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem is how to get clothing and armor to fit body deformities? We may have to settle with facial deformities unless GW can spare the time to design armor models for such diversity.I'd be happy with a basic polygon model and the clothing/armor option just be a mesh that maps to the base model the way that CoH did it. Yes you could have problems with clipping in CoH, but the system gave you a plethora of options.
Ugh, I hate clothing and armor that's all skin tight, just textured onto the body mesh. That's last gen stuff, and it looks terrible. Silhouettes need to be broken up, an unbroken silhouette gets pretty boring to look at. Having different silhouettes is also more important for making characters look different and stand out then different textures and colors is. Texture and color is just the icing on the cake of a good model.
Check out dragon's dogma for armor done right.
Really, if you plan on having deformities and the like from the beginning, warping armor and clothing models to fit is not all that hard. A little time consuming, but not unreasonable I think. It might even be possible to make it procedural. The ones who would have more trouble are the animators, they'd probably have to create whole new versions of every animation to account for major deformities...though some procedural animation could also be a solution to that.
To me though, this is all part of making a current gen game, and current gen to the developer is next gen to the consumer. When this game comes out in some 2-3 years there will probably be whole new game consoles and technology available. To compete in the future market you have to move beyond what was the standard of the past. Developers need to constantly work harder to make better games, and do it faster, to make their appeal stronger (see what I did there?). Of course, Goblinsworks is a new developer, but they should at least be trying to push the bar of their predecessors.
...man it weirds me out out much I babble on in these forums.
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One of the cool things Warhammer had was the scars you could give your characters. I had an Elf who's face looked it had gotten raked by a bear, all down one side looked just nasty, it was a cool change from the flawless elves you see in too many games today.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Developers need to constantly work harder to make better games, and do it faster, to make their appeal stronger (see what I did there?). Of course, Goblinsworks is a...
don't be a Punk man. But you are right it would be Daft not to strive to get ahead of the pack.
That aside..i'd love to see armor that looks natural.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem is how to get clothing and armor to fit body deformities? We may have to settle with facial deformities unless GW can spare the time to design armor models for such diversity.
Yep, I can see that might be a problem. I'd settle for them considering it and coming up with the best options they can. Scalability for size shouldn't be a problem but if you wanted to start including different frames like stooped and twisted then it could be a problem. As long as ugly is catered for I'm not going to be prescriptive on how :)
Ruf
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Goblin Squad Member
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Great sugguestion. I am all for more PC customization, ugly should be an option as well as beauty.
I also really want both beauty and ugly options to be avaialble regardless of ability scores and not tied to charisma. It's possible to be incredibly beautiful and have the personality of a warthog or to be unnatractive physically and have a great force of character.
I can understand not wanting to punish PCs for how they look, by tying their appearance to an ability score. On the other hand sometimes it would make sense for appearance to have an effect on some ability scores (I believe the MMOs ability score might be different from the table top version though).
For example my friends brought up that in the TT game appearances don't affect ability scores. A friend of mine immediately (as a joke) mentioned that his next character would be a morbidly obese Dex. 20 rogue. Waddling around everwhere out of breath to get people to lower thier guard, then BOOM backflipping, w. finessing ext... The DM who had strong simulationist tendencies was NOT AMUSED. ;P
I'm not sure having appearence not an effect in game could impede immersion, but might be better for the game overall.
Actually the obese rogue would suffer for the weight (IIRC similar NPCs suffered a -4 to dex but gained some natural armor), but if he was just fat it would be a very nice surprise (the anime bleach actually has a character that seems to be fat and stupid assassin - but it is a very good cover). Ed Greenwood did something similar with a character in the realms (before ....oh well :( ) Mirt the moneylender.
Regarding the issue of beauty and charisma, I always considered charisma to be the force of personality a creature projects. And if you look at good actors, they are not always pretty, but they leave and impression. Antony Hopkins might not be a model, but his acting is memorable. Well the example isn't great, but I can't come up with a better example.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd live to play an old, hobbling character with frizzy, wild hair. I often feel a little disappointment when I can't make an older looking character, or even when I can, they stride around like a 20 year old
Yeah, that's likely to happen most of the time, anyway. It's one thing to alter the appearance of a character at creation, and another to completely customize movements, gait, or alter limitations. Especially in a massively multiplayer setting. Not that it wouldn't be awesome.
I just want something simple. Like buck teeth. Or patchy facial hair. Or heck, even just overweight. I'd love a nice, overweight wizzo just for the excuse to use Mage Hand to do all his *ehem* heavy lifting of five pounds or more. I'd also like a nice wheezing sound every time he has to run more than five paces, possibly accompanied by the sound of fabric burn. Or leather, should he be allowed leather pants.
Just had a horrible thought: Do enough fat as ugly and you could end up with my dad wearing his old Kiss army outfit complete with stretched out skin tight pants, beer gut, no short, and kabuki makeup...
There again, as with any character, it's one thing to make a unique character, another to make a one-off gag. Myself, I'd probably be a little too tempted to make the one off gag...
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Regarding the issue of beauty and charisma, I always considered charisma to be the force of personality a creature projects. And if you look at good actors, they are not always pretty, but they leave and impression. Antony Hopkins might not be a model, but his acting is memorable. Well the example isn't great, but I can't come up with a better example.
Eleanor Roosevelt. Ugly as homemade sin, but one of our most influential and charismatic First Ladies. Compare and contrast with the equally charismatic, and conventionally pretty, Jackie Kennedy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd live to play an old, hobbling character with frizzy, wild hair. I often feel a little disappointment when I can't make an older looking character, or even when I can, they stride around like a 20 year old
That was one of the reasons I tried to propose variability in the gait in my WASD thread. Those who won't role play and will rush around seeking endgame seem only interested in what they are accustomed to or what seems convenient.
For the minority this is a drawback of crowdforging, at least as I think it will be. I hope GW gets their intended crowdforging mechanism out in the open soon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem is how to get clothing and armor to fit body deformities? We may have to settle with facial deformities unless GW can spare the time to design armor models for such diversity.Yep, I can see that might be a problem. I'd settle for them considering it and coming up with the best options they can. Scalability for size shouldn't be a problem but if you wanted to start including different frames like stooped and twisted then it could be a problem. As long as ugly is catered for I'm not going to be prescriptive on how :)
Ruf
Golaron has Bloatmages, and if there is any support for this at all – well that should be good news for players wishing to play Baron Harkonnen. Now there is a great example, the actor Ian McNeice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_McNeice might not be a super model, but damn I love his acting in Rome and Dune (among others).|
Goblin Squad Member
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Regarding the issue of beauty and charisma, I always considered charisma to be the force of personality a creature projects. And if you look at good actors, they are not always pretty, but they leave and impression. Antony Hopkins might not be a model, but his acting is memorable. Well the example isn't great, but I can't come up with a better example.
Eleanor Roosevelt. Ugly as homemade sin, but one of our most influential and charismatic First Ladies. Compare and contrast with the equally charismatic, and conventionally pretty, Jackie Kennedy.
Well that's one example of a charismatic personality in a high place. I am German, and I could write about current and former heads of state and their appearance. I won't, but you need at least a bit of charisma to inspire people (but that is a core stat for antipaladins too).
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd live to play an old, hobbling character with frizzy, wild hair. I often feel a little disappointment when I can't make an older looking character, or even when I can, they stride around like a 20 year oldThat was one of the reasons I tried to propose variability in the gait in my WASD thread. Those who won't role play and will rush around seeking endgame seem only interested in what they are accustomed to or what seems convenient.
For the minority this is a drawback of crowdforging, at least as I think it will be. I hope GW gets their intended crowdforging mechanism out in the open soon.
It might very well be possible that GW implements a way to modify the standard walking animation . That could work, but might be not quite so easy to implement, after all there is quite the difference between having a damaged leg and just walking with a cane or other walking aid.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not particularly looking for ugly (or fat or whatever), but I would like to see realistic as opposed to idealistic (especially since you can argue ad nauseum as to what "ideal" is).
I'd rather both realistic and idealistic, and vast options for both. This is a game for both iconic heroic adventurers and average mundane dirt farmers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes! I'm all for this. It just brings more flavour to the world and makes the game more fun for everyone.
Especially when we get obese paladins!
Hahaha skimpy armor+ugly= hilarity. I Definitely would like for it not to be tied to a stat particularly charisma.Oh, it's totally worth it - you should see the reactions my female dwarf rogue in WoW gets, and she's only in a low-cut shirt/bodice plus full-coverage leather pants!
Also, agreed on not tying looks to charisma. Chiassa will likely have a high charisma, but I really don't want to play her as a beautiful flower - just a charming, gotta-love-me type.
I never really understood all the flak that female dwarves gets in WoW. I think they're quite pretty.
Maybe this has something to do with me always playing dwarf characters in MMOs, though. Who knows?
Yes! I'm all for this. It just brings more flavour to the world and makes the game more fun for everyone.
Especially when we get obese paladins!Hahaha skimpy armor+ugly= hilarity. I Definitely would like for it not to be tied to a stat particularly charisma.Oh, it's totally worth it - you should see the reactions my female dwarf rogue in WoW gets, and she's only in a low-cut shirt/bodice plus full-coverage leather pants!
Also, agreed on not tying looks to charisma. Chiassa will likely have a high charisma, but I really don't want to play her as a beautiful flower - just a charming, gotta-love-me type.
I never really understood all the flak that female dwarves gets in WoW. I think they're quite pretty.
Maybe this has something to do with me always playing dwarf characters in MMOs, though. Who knows?
I've been told it's because they're "fat." I love them. (I have three, but the other two are heavy-armor wearers, and I like my plate wearers to actually be wearing plate. My rogue, on the other hand, just finds armor too restrictive for sneaking.)
When female pandaren were first released, there were a LOT of complaints that they were "fat" as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've been told it's because they're "fat." I love them. (I have three, but the other two are heavy-armor wearers, and I like my plate wearers to actually be wearing plate. My rogue, on the other hand, just finds armor too restrictive for sneaking.)
When female pandaren were first released, there were a LOT of complaints that they were "fat" as well.
*sigh* People are silly. I've never thought of the female dwarves in WoW as fat, that'd just be absurd. And yeah, I love 'em too. It's a bit sad that there are so few of them.
As for the Pandaren (not that they're fat either)... They're walking bears! Did people expect them to look like blood elves?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes you could have problems with clipping in CoH, but the system gave you a plethora of options.
I used a clipping error to let me have the top of my head poke through the hair, creating a 'balding guy with fringe' effect. It was quite useful for creating Mr. Montgomery Burns, the Fire Controller.
Alas, CoH, if only you'd be owned by a company a little better than NCSoft.Anyway, +1 for more options. The original post here has enough favourites (likes) to be included on Nihimon's list of popular player threads, by the way.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd live to play an old, hobbling character with frizzy, wild hair. I often feel a little disappointment when I can't make an older looking character, or even when I can, they stride around like a 20 year oldYeah, that's likely to happen most of the time, anyway. It's one thing to alter the appearance of a character at creation, and another to completely customize movements, gait, or alter limitations. Especially in a massively multiplayer setting. Not that it wouldn't be awesome.
But some MMOs these days DO offer multiple gaits, stances- Champions Online/Star Trek Online (same engine, so I'm counting them as one) come to mind.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon how did you get to that so quick? Do you have some kind of macro running that alerts you as soon as your name is mentioned? Or are you just all over this board like a rash? :)
Raymond's comment does raise some alarm bells. While RP-ers will obviously use the tool to create the characters they want, others will do their best to "misuse" the tool to make absurd or comic effects. I can see a gang of PKs all having identical faces like chopped liver for example. At the end of the day I think the variety will be good even if there are people who twist it in ways it's not intended.
Ruf