Magical Lineage (Trait) and Spell Specialization (Feat): Stack?

[Ol' Nejj]

I'm GM-ing a game, I'm relatively new, and I got a guy with this setup in a new-to-be character. He will already be quite powerful but I'm worried this will put him "over-the-top" and potentially cast a shadow on our other party spell-caster. I was hoping not to kaibosh his great idea solely on mechanics, I'd rather find a rule stating he can't than me deciding he can't based on flavor/RAI.

Wondering what the rules are regarding trait/feat effect stacking. Is there anything to prevent it legitimately?

Magical Lineage (Trait):

Magical Lineage: One of your parents was a gifted spellcaster who not only used metamagic often, but also developed many magical items and perhaps even a new spell or two—and you have inherited a fragment of this greatness. Pick one spell when you choose this trait. When you apply metamagic feats to this spell, treat its actual level as 1 lower for determining the spell's final adjusted level.

Spell Specialization (Feat):

Select one spell. You cast that spell with greater than normal power.
Prerequisites: Int 13, Spell Focus.
Benefit: Select one spell of a school for which you have taken the Spell Focus feat. Treat your caster level as being two higher for all level-variable effects of the spell.
Every time you gain an even level in the spellcasting class you chose your spell from, you can choose a new spell to replace the spell selected with this feat, and that spell becomes your specialized spell.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different spell.

Effectively, one lowers caster level, the other raises it for a combination of a +3 caster level for a particular metamagic-adjusted spell.

Not sure I like the idea of a quickened fireball functioning at near full damage at level 8. Throw haste into the mix and this will get nasty in a hurry.

Thoughts?

[x9ss]

That quickened fireball can't be cast until 11th level (3rd level fireball+4 levels to quicken-1 level from Magical Lineage=6th level slot). So it's probably fine. Also, this is perfectly legal by RAW.

Just watch out to make sure your player doesn't think he can apply a +0 metamagic feat to a level 1 spell and use magical lineage to drop it to a cantrip. That particular combo is against the rules.

[yeti1069]

I think you're misreading those.

Magical Lineage allows you to apply a metamagic feat to a spell at a reduced cost.

Spell Specialization increases the level-dependent benefits of your chosen spell.

In your Fireball example, you could apply Quicken to Fireball at level 11 rather than the norm of level 13. Fireball is a 3rd level spell, Quicken adjusts it up 4 levels, and you get 7th level spells at level 13, but ML reduces the increase from 4 to 3 for Fireball in this case, so the 3rd level spell increases to 6th, which you get at level 11.

SS simply means that at level 5, your Fireball will be doing 7d6 damage, instead of 5d6, because it's treated as being two levels higher. Also, I believe it means that you can cast it 680 ft. away, instead of 600 ft., since I believe the variable range of the spell is also treated as 2 higher.

In this case, Magical Lineage and Spell Specialization don't do much together, since by the time you can apply Quicken, Fireball is already capped at 10d6 damage. If you were looking at, say, Still Spell instead, you could Still Spell a Fireball at level 5 that deals 7d6 damage, when normally you would have to be level 7 and replace a 4th level spell slot in order to match that performance.

[BillyGoat]

You've misinterpreted Magical Lineage.

Specifically, it says pick a spell (fireball, in your example). Treat this spell's level (it's a level 3 spell) as one level lower for purposes of applying metamagic.

In other words, when calculating the spell slot you have to use for a quickened fireball, treat Fireball as a level 2 spell, instead of a level 3 spell, for calculating the spell-slot requirement.

It has no effect on caster level, nor the actual level of the spell Fireball. They could have as easily said "when preparing this spell with metamagic feats, calculate the level of spell slot required, then subtract one when determining the spell-slot used by this spell".

Consequently, there is no interaction of note between Magical Lineage and Spell Specialization.

The quickened fireball would be prepared in a spell slot for sixth level spells (Fireball Level-2 due to magical lineage, Quicken adds for spell levels).

You therefore could not cast a quickened fireball at 8th wizard level, because you only have access to 4th level spell slots.

However, when you cast a regular fireball at 8th wizard level (using a 3rd level spell slot), you would throw 10d6 using Spell Specialization and you'd be treated as CL 10 if someone tried to counterspell it.

[mplindustries]

It seems like you misunderstood more than just magical lineage. At level 8, a normal Fireball does 8d6. With Spell Specialization, it does 10d6. That is all it does--+2d6 damage (and it won't do anything to Fireball past level 10).

As others have said, Magical Lineage only reduces the metamagic cost, so metamagic feat that increases the spell level by 1 increases it by 0, and so on. That's all it does.

[Bearded Ben]

Ol' Nejj wrote:

Throw haste into the mix and this will get nasty in a hurry.

Haste doesn't do anything to spellcasting.

[james maissen]

mplindustries wrote:

It seems like you misunderstood more than just magical lineage. At level 8, a normal Fireball does 8d6. With Spell Specialization, it does 10d6. That is all it does--+2d6 damage (and it won't do anything to Fireball past level 10).

As others have said, Magical Lineage only reduces the metamagic cost, so metamagic feat that increases the spell level by 1 increases it by 0, and so on. That's all it does.

Well, it raises the caster level of the effect. The main thing that does you are right is the number of dice (capped at 10).

But because someone else wasn't sure.. it would also add to the range as the range is 400ft+40ft/caster level. It would also add to checks against Spell Resistance as they are based on the caster level of the spell.

All that said, it sounds like the OP's player is building around a specific spell. That's not that horrible to do, and in fact Paizo has built a lot to gear them to do so.

I will say one thing.. if you're DMing and you are not solid on the rules, you will want to work on that and also work with those of your players that are on more solid ground.

-James

[Ambush...]

Also, the terms "broken" or "overpowered" are many times thrown around too liberally IMO. Just because something is effective, does not mean its broken or TOO powerful per se. Broken would imply that the casters opponents don't stand a chance or the potency of the rest of the party is a mere pittance by comparison. In addition, just because one player builds an IN-effective character, you shouldn't penalize those that build effective ones. The newbies just might learn something by watching.

Examples:

EFFECTIVE: Level 1 human dual blooded sorcerer (blue draconic/orc) magical lineage(shocking grasp) spell spec (shocking grasp)
1st level damage with shocking grasp = 3d6+6 electricity (avg 17.5 pts) with no save. kaboom.

Sound OP? How about the comparative Human Barbarian at 1st level?
Str 20 (before rage) great sword with power attack + rage = 2d6+13 (avg 20 pts) and barbarians don't run out of swings like sorcerers do with spells. Should we ban barbarians too?

OVERPOWERED: Level 11 Fire Specialist with Mag Lineage (Fire Fall from APG). With Feats (SF Trans, GSF Trans, EF Fire, GEF Fire, Heighten, Persistent) and rod of Dazing. DC28 reflex save (twice) AND DC28 will save (twice). If you fail any of these be dazed for 5 rounds vs ALL targets within 60 ft with no Spell Resistance, shaped around friendlies as Fire Specialist

Why OP vs only Effective? Because at this APL 90% of all baddies within 60ft are instantly subdued. No other equivalent level set up could compare and frankly its so powerful it makes the game not fun with no challenge.

Make sense?

[Ravingdork]

If you have Spell Specialization (fireball) at 5th-level, your fireball has a caster level of 7 rather than 5. That mean that you will do 7d6 damage instead of 5d6, will have a range of 680 instead of 600, will be more readily able to get past SR (since you will roll 1d20+7 instead of 1d20+5), and even have an easier time with Concentration checks thanks to the higher caster level.

Magical Lineage let's you add Empower Spell to your fireball for only a 4th-level spell slot (normally 5th) or quicken it with a 6th-level spell slot (normally 7th) or apply both Empower Spell AND Quicken Spell to your fireball for only a 8th-level spell slot (normally 9th).

I hope that helps.