Broken Zenith |
Links to guides you say? How about links to guides and builds?
Comprehensive Guide to the Guides
Also, the synthesist summoner and master summoner are generally considered to be some of the most overpowered classes in the game.
gustavo iglesias |
Thanks for that info. I suppose I have not gotten into high level game play but won't the summoner class without the archetype be stronger still? I can't speak for the master summoner.
The base class has an adventage, the action economy, and a disventage, a chain always break by it's weakest link, and you share magic items with the eidolon. That means if you have a cloak of protection, your eidolon doesn't.
Synthesist has as adventages that he can dump the physical stats, and get huge physical stats anyway from the eidolon (like 3.0 druids), and he becomes a caster that is tough as hell, with a huge amount of AC and hp.
Sythesist is more broken.
Interzone |
You don't even need to dump your physical stats to get more than enough with the mental ones for synthesist... plus if you build it right it is basically THE toughest character you can play, with massive AC, massive saves, massive HP while still having a lot of the kind of awesome magical defenses that magic-users typically rely on for safety... plus things like Evolution Surge... (whats that? lots of fire around? I will cast a 2nd level Lesser Evolution Surge spell and become immune to fire... etc)
Normal summoners certainly have a huge advantage with action economy (Master Summoners even more so) but Synthesists are still definitely pretty broken. AND FUN :)
In my own group we have a house rule that if you want to play a synthesist you get a point buy that is 5 points lower than everyone else. Doesn't really hurt it much at all though.
Seranov |
A Synthesist can have massive AC, yes, but while he's very tanky (much like a Monk) he can't really be a super dangerous threat until later on. He's a great tank character if you can get the enemies to focus on him, but he's not going to have an easy time doing that, really.
They also don't have as good saves as a Monk (one good save, and they're based on Charisma) or anywhere near as good self-healing as a Paladin, and their Eidolon's HP can ONLY be healed by Rejuvinate Eidolon and Channel Positive Energy (not even resting heals them up).
Broken? Maybe if your definition of broken is "hard to kill," but I have seen plenty of other characters that are just as tough and do way more damage, have better saves and/or have better ways to solve problems. The only thing out of whack about the Summoner class is the fact that their spell list is freakin' amazing for a 3/4 spellcaster.
gustavo iglesias |
A Synthesist can have massive AC, yes, but while he's very tanky (much like a Monk) he can't really be a super dangerous threat until later on. He's a great tank character if you can get the enemies to focus on him, but he's not going to have an easy time doing that, really.
Dunno about Synthesist, but the eidolon's in my campaign has the same Attack bonus than the paladin, same average damage, but 4 attacks instead of 2, all of them at maximum bonus, and pounce. and we are lvl 7. I suspect it's dominance will be lower once the high levels start to kick in, but at low levels, a 4+ attacks monster with pounce is a force to be reckon.
Broken? Maybe if your definition of broken is "hard to kill," but I have seen plenty of other characters that are just as tough and do way more damage, have better saves and/or have better ways to solve problems. The only thing out of whack about the Summoner class is the fact that their spell list is freakin' amazing for a 3/4 spellcaster.
Haste at level 4 is pretty awesome. They can cast Pits, black tentacles, dimensional door (which they can make potions of...)... it's a pretty awesome spell list, for a melee guy with lots of claws, pounce, etc.
Seranov |
I will absolutely not deny that your eidolon can get kinda nasty... but 4 attacks that do 1d6+Str? At that level, 2H characters can do a ton of damage a swing, and don't have to be some kind of otherworldly outsider to do it. It's not really as scary as it's made out to be.
And as far as the spell list goes, you're not going to be casting terribly many spells in melee (haste as you move in, yeah) because you're not able to attack at all if you want to play spellcaster.
Christopher Dudley RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32 |
We just started a pirate campaign at level 1, and I took Synthesist because I bought this figure. I'm finding that I COULD take things that would have made me more dangerous, but I'm building to a theme, which is somewhat limiting what I could take.
For example, I could have taken Biped/Improved Damage (claws), Bite, Improved Damage (bite), and Pounce. But my first objective was the Shark-Man theme, so I gave myself Bite, Gills, Swim, and Tail. At first level, I kind of need Mage Armor active to have any kind of survivability, but at 2nd level, I'm taking Improved Natural Armor. My feats are Extra Evolution (a no-brainer) and Arcane Strike, and I have 3 attacks per full attack. Even non-optimized, I'm pacing the Barbarian on damage, but in the 2 sessions we've had, I've been rolling very well. Not sure how it will average out over time.
EDIT: Linked the right figure.
gustavo iglesias |
I will absolutely not deny that your eidolon can get kinda nasty... but 4 attacks that do 1d6+Str? At that level, 2H characters can do a ton of damage a swing, and don't have to be some kind of otherworldly outsider to do it. It's not really as scary as it's made out to be.
Sure. But 5 attacks (if you are quadruped and take "rake" as one of them), plus rend, with 1d6+str+1d6 (energy attack, like corrosive) is kind of decent. It means like 70-80 damage on a move (with pounce). It outdamage any 2h build on a move, have potential to kill CR7 creatures on a charge.
And as far as the spell list goes, you're not going to be casting terribly many spells in melee (haste as you move in, yeah) because you're not able to attack at all if you want to play spellcaster.
Nop, that's why I listed the action economy as one of the regular summoner adventages over synthesist . But even then, you can self-buff with decent duration pre-combat spells like Bull's strength, Mage Armor, etc.
Artanthos |
Sure. But 5 attacks (if you are quadruped and take "rake" as one of them), plus rend, with 1d6+str+1d6 (energy attack, like corrosive) is kind of decent. It means like 70-80 damage on a move (with pounce). It outdamage any 2h build on a move, have potential to kill CR7 creatures on a charge.
If you hit on all attacks: unlikely
If you can charge: I usually either lack a straight line or have other players / obstacles in the way.
If you've spent ALL your evolutions on pure offense: good luck staying up, you have fewer hp than most d8 players.
Remember, the quad is only going to have a base strength of 16 at level 7. If you've spent the evolutions on the extra attacks + energy attack + strength, you've got nothing left for anything else.
Don't even go there with large size. First time you wind up in a sewer or dungeon with 5' wide corridors you're dead weight.
gustavo iglesias |
gustavo iglesias wrote:
Sure. But 5 attacks (if you are quadruped and take "rake" as one of them), plus rend, with 1d6+str+1d6 (energy attack, like corrosive) is kind of decent. It means like 70-80 damage on a move (with pounce). It outdamage any 2h build on a move, have potential to kill CR7 creatures on a charge.
If you hit on all attacks: unlikely
every melee character has to hit.
If you can charge: I usually either lack a straight line or have other players / obstacles in the way.
"ussualy" is not the same that "sometimes". I sometimes can't charge, but often can. And when you can't, you are just like everybody else, limited to one attack.
If you've spent ALL your evolutions on pure offense: good luck staying up, you have fewer hp than most d8 players.
You don't need to spend all your evolutions on pure offense for that. You can have better AC than a full plate+shield character.
Remember, the quad is only going to have a base strength of 16 at level 7.
It would help a lot if you were a class that can cast Bull's strenghth, wouldn't it?
If you've spent the evolutions on the extra attacks + energy attack + strength, you've got nothing left for anything else.
at 7th, you have 10 evolutions + 1-2 extra from feats. You can have Claws, rake, bite, which means 5 attacks on charge, for 3 points as a quadruped (you have bite, and the basic limbs). Ability increase cost 2 more, and energy attacks another 2. Pounce another one. You still have 2-4 to toy around your AC. Not including the feat for improved nat armor, that gives you up to +4 Nat Armor at level 7, which gives you 29 AC with just mage armor. 30 with self-cast haste, and up to 34 or so with amulet of nat armor, ring of protection, and feats, if you want to.
So basically it's 5 attacks, 2d6+6, with AC around 30, and pounce. At 7th. Without anything weird, out of order, or extremelly pushing (no centaur with tentacles wielding lances or such monstruositys). Just average run-o-mill 4 leg quadruped pouncing.
Don't even go there with large size. First time you wind up in a sewer or dungeon with 5' wide corridors you're dead weight.
As much a weight dead as any other caster who can cast haste, black tentacles and summon monster IV (as standard action and duration in minutes) at 7th level. I thin you can hold your own weight just fine.
Artanthos |
As much a weight dead as any other caster who can cast haste, black tentacles and summon monster IV (as standard action and duration in minutes) at 7th level. I thin you can hold your own weight just fine.
I should have specified. Since I'm assuming the summoner is not large size, he'll be able to function.
I'm not going to argue with you about theorycraft vs play experience. I play both a summoner and a synthesist. I know exactly how they play around a table under a wide range of GM's. I deal with their strengths and weaknesses constantly.
I also know that my most effective character is not a summoner. I have other characters that manage both higher defense and higher damage simultaneously.
Seranov |
We just started a pirate campaign at level 1, and I took Synthesist because I bought this figure. I'm finding that I COULD take things that would have made me more dangerous, but I'm building to a theme, which is somewhat limiting what I could take.
For example, I could have taken Biped/Improved Damage (claws), Bite, Improved Damage (bite), and Pounce. But my first objective was the Shark-Man theme, so I gave myself Bite, Gills, Swim, and Tail. At first level, I kind of need Mage Armor active to have any kind of survivability, but at 2nd level, I'm taking Improved Natural Armor. My feats are Extra Evolution (a no-brainer) and Arcane Strike, and I have 3 attacks per full attack. Even non-optimized, I'm pacing the Barbarian on damage, but in the 2 sessions we've had, I've been rolling very well. Not sure how it will average out over time.
EDIT: Linked the right figure.
Bipeds can't get Pounce. Another reason so many people think the Summoner is broken is that people build Eidolons that are straight-up against the rules.
Seranov wrote:I will absolutely not deny that your eidolon can get kinda nasty... but 4 attacks that do 1d6+Str? At that level, 2H characters can do a ton of damage a swing, and don't have to be some kind of otherworldly outsider to do it. It's not really as scary as it's made out to be.Sure. But 5 attacks (if you are quadruped and take "rake" as one of them), plus rend, with 1d6+str+1d6 (energy attack, like corrosive) is kind of decent. It means like 70-80 damage on a move (with pounce). It outdamage any 2h build on a move, have potential to kill CR7 creatures on a charge.
Quote:And as far as the spell list goes, you're not going to be casting terribly many spells in melee (haste as you move in, yeah) because you're not able to attack at all if you want to play spellcaster.Nop, that's why I listed the action economy as one of the regular summoner adventages over synthesist . But even then, you can self-buff with decent duration pre-combat spells like Bull's strength, Mage Armor, etc.
Synthesists CAN do pretty decent damage, I never claimed they couldn't. It's just not stupid ridiculous like most people think. A Barbarian can do the same thing starting at level 10, at which point he's MUCH scarier than the Synthesist. The Synthesist is still limited by the fact that he's got to save spells to heal his Eidolon, or invest in wands of rejuvinate eidolon, and generally is walking around in a scary suit of outsider armor if he wants to be able to fight decently.
Really, a Synthesist is a very strong character, yes, but nothing ridiculous. He's still not a Wizard.
Matrix Dragon |
Sure. But 5 attacks (if you are quadruped and take "rake" as one of them), plus rend, with 1d6+str+1d6 (energy attack, like corrosive) is kind of decent. It means like 70-80 damage on a move (with pounce). It outdamage any 2h build on a move, have potential to kill CR7 creatures on a charge.
Until the Synthesist runs into DR or energy resistance. A monster with just a little bit of DR ruins a synth at low levels, and energy resistance can be very common.
But yea, I won't deny that a Synthesist pounce can be pretty nasty.
Nicos |
I have this build made by interzone from another sytheyst thread a while ago.
It have good saves (probably better than anything from wizards). It use manufacered weapon to have a lot of attacks, have a massive AC, scent, pounce, a lot of hit points and can heal himselfs, fly , teleport and other useful spells.
And it as the author said it isnot fully optimized.
Half-Elf Synthesist 12 (Ancestral Arms alternate racial trait) 20 pt buy
Neutral, Nethys
Str 9 +2 Belt
Dex 14 +1 @4, +2 Belt
Con 14 +2 Belt
Int 14
Wis 7
Cha 16 +2 racial, +1 @8, +1 @12, +4 Headband
In Merged Form:
Str 14 +5 (Str/dex bonus), +1 (ability increase), +2 (belt) =22
Dex 14 +5 (str/dex bonus), +2 (belt) =21
Con 13 +1 (ability increase), +2 (belt) =16
Traits: Magic is Life, Reactionary
Favored Class Bonus: +1/4 evolution point per level
Form: Quadraped
Evolutions = 19 (16 + 3 for FC bonus)
Pounce - 1
Improved Natural Armor x3 - 3
Claws (on feet) - 1
Hooves (on back feet) - 1
Limbs-Arms x 5 - 10
Scent - 1
ASPECT: Skilled: Perception - 1, Skilled: Stealth - 1
Feats:
*Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Wakizashi (Ancestral Arms)
1-Arcane Strike
3-Power Attack
5-Two Weapon Fighting (Becomes multiweapon fighting when you have more than two arms)
7-Double Slice
9-Hammer the Gap
11-Death from Above
Spells Known:
0x6: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Arcane Mark, Mage Hand, Mending, Message
1x6: Mage Armor, Grease, Ant Haul, Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon, Endure Elements, Enlarge Person
2x5: Haste, Slow, Glitterdust, Summon Eidolon, Evolution Surge
3x4: Black Tentacles, Displacement, Greater Invisibility, Dispel Magic
4x4: Overland Flight, Teleport, Baleful Polymorph, Purified Calling
Skills: Perception, Stealth, Spellcraft, Kn: Arcana
Equipment:
Various stuff including:
Ring of Protection +2
Headband of Alluring Charisma +4
Belt of Physical Perfection +2
Eyes of the Eagle
Cloak of Resistance +4
and 9x +1 Wakizashi
(about another 24k worth of magic gear)
SO TO SUM UP:
with just his hour/level buffs on, he has:
AC 10+4 (mage armor) +4 (shielded meld) +18 (natural) +2 (deflection) +5 (Dex) = AC 43, Touch 17, Flat Footed 38
He has a hand free to cast spells (CL 12, very high casting stat so good DC's)
He can heal himself if neccesary.
He has 8+11d8+36 hit points, and 9d10+27 temporary hitpoints (avg. 93+77)
His saves are:
Fort 4 (base) +3 (stat) +4 (cloak) +4 (shielded meld) = 15
Ref 4 (base) +5 (stat) +4 (cloak) +4 (shielded meld) = 17 +evasion
Will 8 (base) -2 (stat) +4 (cloak) +4 (shielded meld) = 14
Also Immune to Sleep, +2 vs. Death effects, +2 vs. Enchantments, and another +4 morale bonus against Enchantments, and he automatically stabilizes if under 0 hp.
Initiative = 7
He can charge 80 ft and do a full attack of 1 bite +2 hooves +2 claws +9 Wakizashis... use a swift action to add +3 damage to each attack, Free action to power attack for +6 damage on each attack, if he is flying (oveland flight lasts basically all day) he gets +5 on the attack rolls from Death From Above, and each hit does +1 dmg per hit already this turn... with 14 attacks.
OH and of course he has great Stealth and Perception so he can scout (and the racial +8 to each sticks around even without his Eidolon summoned)
Plus of course he can fall back on his Summoner Monster VI SLA 10 times a day
So yes, I think summoners, synthesit or not are broken.
Nicos |
They also don't have as good saves as a Monk (one good save, and they're based on Charisma) or anywhere near as good self-healing as a Paladin, and their Eidolon's HP can ONLY be healed by Rejuvinate Eidolon and Channel Positive Energy (not even resting heals them up).
about saves. A summoner can have a decent wisdom since they can dum physical stats, that helps with the will saves. When fuse they tend to have very good physycal stats and that elps with the REF and fort saves. And no top of that they have shield meld and greater sheild meld.
Matrix Dragon |
I have this build made by interzone from another sytheyst thread a while ago.
It have good saves (probably better than anything from wizards). It use manufacered weapon to have a lot of attacks, have a massive AC, scent, pounce, a lot of hit points and can heal himselfs, fly , teleport and other useful spells.And it as the author said it isnot fully optimized.
** spoiler omitted **...
I would love to torment a player who tried using something like this in one of my games by throwing tons of enemies with DR at him. Suddenly the summoner can't do any damage!
Broken Zenith |
For comparison, here is a synthesist that has many arms to wield Falchions, and here is one that sprouts many arms to wield bows.
In both cases, we have fairly unimpressive attack rolls. However, the melee synthesist gets excellent damage, and they both have incredible AC. Another bonus is that a synthesist is still a caster.
Are these bonuses outweighed by the Achilles Heel of relying on a banishment prone creature? Maybe, although at higher levels you can get great spell resistance.
HaraldKlak |
My biggest problem with the synthesist is that it favors extreme min-maxing.
Many casters could benefit from taking a single level of synthesist to pull off the venerable age category. If it gets banished they are more or less instantly killed, but otherwise their survivability improves.
A synthesist monk can become quite potent at lower levels, raining unarmed strikes on the enemies. Yes, damage reduction is a problem, but Evolution Surge help adapt to the situations.
Other special abilities can be utilizes very efficiently with the Synthesist. For example, the dhampir Blood Drinker feat on several bite attacks, dealing 2 con damage each time.
Psion-Psycho |
Its been a while but here is what i got.
-Race / Class-
Half - Elf / Summoner (Synthesist), Paladin 2, Monk 1
-Stats with out Eidolon (25 point buy)-
STR 07 (+6 item)(-6 age) = 07
DEX 07 (+6 item)(-6 age) = 07
CON 10 (-6 age) = 04
INT 13 (+3 age) = 16
WIS 17 (+6 item)(+3 age) = 26
CHA 18 (+2 racial)(+3 age)(+5 leveling)(+6 item) = 34
-Saves with out Eidolon-
Fort = 28
Reflex = 25
Will = 40
AC = 36
Touch = 23
Flat - Foot = 28
-Stats with Eidolon-
STR 29
DEX 28
CON 13
INT 16
WIS 26
CHA 34
-Saves with Eidolon-
Fort = 32
Reflex = 37
Will = 44
AC = 72 (76 with combat expertise)
Touch = 31
Flat - Foot = 58
-Eidolon Abilities-
Base - Darkvision, Evasion, Improved Evasion, Devotion, Multiattack
Form - Biped - claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs)
Claws (x2)
limbs (arms) (x2)
Immunity (acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic)
Spell Resistance (28)
Flight Su (30ft)
Improved Natural Armor (8)
Improved Damage (claws)
-Class / Feat Progression-
M 01 Dodge, Skill Focus Perception, Toughness
P O2
P 03 Combat Expertise
S 04
S 05 Extra Evolution
S 06
S 07 Combat Reflexes
S 08
S 09 Extra Evolution
S 10
S 11 Vigilant Eidolon
S 12
S 13 Extra Evolution
S 14
S 15 (insert feat here)
S 16
S 17 (insert feat here)
S 18
S 19 Extra Evolution
S 20
-Gear-
Bracers of Armor
Ring of Protection
Ring of Forcefangs
Cloak of Resistance
Amulet of Natural Armor
Headband of Mental Prowess (wis and cha)
Belt of Physical Might (str and dex)
High saves, immunities to all spell damage but positive / negative and force, and spell resistance.
gustavo iglesias |
I also know that my most effective character is not a summoner. I have other characters that manage both higher defense and higher damage simultaneously.
That proofs nothing. Of course you can get higher damage and defense with other characters.
But if you think a fighter with AC 31 and 100 DPR is balanced with a synthesist with AC 30, 95 dpr, the ability to cast dimensional door, black tentacles, resist energy, hungry pit, fly, and haste, I happen to disagree.
gustavo iglesias |
Synthesists CAN do pretty decent damage, I never claimed they couldn't. It's just not stupid ridiculous like most people think. A Barbarian can do the same thing starting at level 10, at which point he's MUCH scarier than the Synthesist. The Synthesist is still limited by the fact that he's got to save spells to heal his Eidolon, or invest in wands of rejuvinate eidolon, and generally is walking around in a scary suit of outsider armor if he wants to be able to fight decently.
A barbarian can do more damage, but has much weaker AC, not as well rounded saves (can't dump physical stats as synthesists), and can't cast spells. The simple fact that you *Can* compare it's damage to an eidolon, it's scary.
People keep comparing Eidolons to Barbarian and Fighters, showing as proof of balance the fact that the Eidolons do a comparable level of damage to those, not more. That's a proof of the opposite. You have a character whose *PET* does a damage that is comparable (even if slightly lower) to a melee character, and still is able to cast spells (and powerful ones, mind you. He's not a ranger.)
As I said, I still have to see how it behaves beyond 12+ level. I suspect it lose some gas. But in the 4-9th, it's kind of a beast. Probably not because the summoner is broken, but because natural weapons are broken.
gustavo iglesias |
Nicos wrote:I would love to torment a player who tried using something like this in one of my games by throwing tons of enemies with DR at him. Suddenly the summoner can't do any damage!I have this build made by interzone from another sytheyst thread a while ago.
It have good saves (probably better than anything from wizards). It use manufacered weapon to have a lot of attacks, have a massive AC, scent, pounce, a lot of hit points and can heal himselfs, fly , teleport and other useful spells.And it as the author said it isnot fully optimized.
** spoiler omitted **...
That would hinder the fellow dual wielding ranger, rogue or monk way more. At worst, he can just start casting spells behind a courtain of summoned monsters. That if he doesn't have some silver/cold iron/adamantine wakizashis among his 9 weapons.
Once again: the problem with the summoner is not that the eidolon is broken. The problem is that the eidolon, while strong, is only HALF the character.
jjaamm |
playing a synth in a serpant skull game. started at 6th level and we are now 12th. have been bored with it really. stopped "armoring" up awhile back. made for a good tank character though, since didn have any. wanted to play it differently, but had no front liners live that long. I am having more fun by summoning things now. Of course paranoia dosnt help. Got it real bad so rebuilt the "armor" to be really defensive. reduced his attacking ability,but still. permanant fly, see in darkness, resists or immunes. high perception with blind sence. And around 200 hit points makes it hard to kill him.
Seranov |
Its been a while but here is what i got.
-Race / Class-
Half - Elf / Summoner (Synthesist), Paladin 2, Monk 1-Stats with out Eidolon (25 point buy)-
STR 07 (+6 item)(-6 age) = 07
DEX 07 (+6 item)(-6 age) = 07
CON 10 (-6 age) = 04
INT 13 (+3 age) = 16
WIS 17 (+6 item)(+3 age) = 26
CHA 18 (+2 racial)(+3 age)(+5 leveling)(+6 item) = 34[snip]
High saves, immunities to all spell damage but positive / negative and force, and spell resistance.
I don't know a single DM who would allow this, though. How overpowered is that summoner when you've removed 8-12 points from his point buy? And then told him he can't cheese the age categories, either?
Really, you can do things like this for most classes, it doesn't mean the class, when used properly by people who aren't intent on completely ****ing on the intent and spirit of the rules, isn't a strong but completely reasonable party member.
Seranov wrote:Synthesists CAN do pretty decent damage, I never claimed they couldn't. It's just not stupid ridiculous like most people think. A Barbarian can do the same thing starting at level 10, at which point he's MUCH scarier than the Synthesist. The Synthesist is still limited by the fact that he's got to save spells to heal his Eidolon, or invest in wands of rejuvinate eidolon, and generally is walking around in a scary suit of outsider armor if he wants to be able to fight decently.A barbarian can do more damage, but has much weaker AC, not as well rounded saves (can't dump physical stats as synthesists), and can't cast spells. The simple fact that you *Can* compare it's damage to an eidolon, it's scary.
People keep comparing Eidolons to Barbarian and Fighters, showing as proof of balance the fact that the Eidolons do a comparable level of damage to those, not more. That's a proof of the opposite. You have a character whose *PET* does a damage that is comparable (even if slightly lower) to a melee character, and still is able to cast spells (and powerful ones, mind you. He's not a ranger.)
As I said, I still have to see how it behaves beyond 12+ level. I suspect it lose some gas. But in the 4-9th, it's kind of a beast. Probably not because the summoner is broken, but because natural weapons are broken.
There are Barbarian builds (eg. the Tank Barbarian, who uses Invulnerable Rager/Urban Barbarian with an Unbreakable Fighter dip to get Stalwart/Improved Stalwart and Superstition to have good armor, crazy DR and great saves) that still gets Pounce, though a level later, that are every bit as strong, offensively, if not stronger. Other martials don't get Pounce, but after that first round, they're doing as much or more damage.
And we're specifically discussing Synthesists, here. The Eidolon and the player are one character, until very late game. And I wouldn't say natural weapons are broken, as it's really combining manufactured and natural weapons that starts making things crazy... but every class has ways to do that, not just the Synthesist.
gustavo iglesias |
And I wouldn't say natural weapons are broken, as it's really combining manufactured and natural weapons that starts making things crazy... but every class has ways to do that, not just the Synthesist.
I would. I don't think a beast should get one attack for every piece of body he has. Just because a tiger has 4 claws, it doesn't mean he should make 4 attacks (all of them at full bonus), adding str to all of them. A monk doesn't get 2 fist, 2 kicks, 2 elbow strikes, 2 knee strikes and one headbutt just because the body parts are there. Or a fighter with armored gauntlets, wrist-mounted blades, boot daggers, spiked armor and horns in his helm.
It irks me specially when a horse has a bite attack of 1d6+5, higher than a leopard, plus two hoof attacks.
In my opinion, a tiger should have a single "claws & fangs" attack that do whatever damage you find necesary to balance it. But an octopus-like beast shouldn't have 8 attacks just because it has 8 tentacles. But that's a totally different debate.
And we're specifically discussing Synthesists, here. The Eidolon and the player are one character, until very late game.
Yes, the synthesist doesn't gain action adventage over the barbarian. But it gains options anyways. In a given combat where you can't melee efficiently (high DR, or swarm, flying creatures, whatever), the barbarian is hosed. The Synthesist can cast Summmon Monster that last minutes as a standard action, then buff his party with haste, dispel magic the oponent, cast black tentacles or dimension door. The barbarian can't. Even without the action economy adventage, the Synthesist still has more cards in his sleeve.
Seranov |
The fact remains that natural weapons fall behind manufactured weapons eventually. You can only ever have 3-5 natural attacks in the early goings, and once other characters are getting their iteratives, they start catching up quite easily. A Barbarian isn't the only one who can do damage on par with a Synthesist, either. He's just the only one who can get Pounce. Fighters can get amazing damage and great AC, Paladins are absolutely ridiculous against evil, Rangers are something fierce against their favored enemies, etc.
And, well, yeah. You're right that the Synthesist is much more versatile than the Barbarian. That's more a flaw of the system than of the Synthesist, though. Martials can't fall back on spellcasting to solve problems, but I can assure you this doesn't make the Synthesist overpowered. Especially since he's still no Wizard. The Wizard doesn't even NEED to have a tough-as-nails outsider shell to just go around demolishing things with his party.
Artanthos |
Artanthos wrote:I also know that my most effective character is not a summoner. I have other characters that manage both higher defense and higher damage simultaneously.That proofs nothing. Of course you can get higher damage and defense with other characters.
But if you think a fighter with AC 31 and 100 DPR is balanced with a synthesist with AC 30, 95 dpr, the ability to cast dimensional door, black tentacles, resist energy, hungry pit, fly, and haste, I happen to disagree.
My magus can cast all of those and full attack while doing it.
My fighter in that level range has a 40+ AC unbuffed with 5 attacks a round.
Psion-Psycho |
Psion-Psycho wrote:Its been a while but here is what i got.
-Race / Class-
Half - Elf / Summoner (Synthesist), Paladin 2, Monk 1-Stats with out Eidolon (25 point buy)-
STR 07 (+6 item)(-6 age) = 07
DEX 07 (+6 item)(-6 age) = 07
CON 10 (-6 age) = 04
INT 13 (+3 age) = 16
WIS 17 (+6 item)(+3 age) = 26
CHA 18 (+2 racial)(+3 age)(+5 leveling)(+6 item) = 34[snip]
High saves, immunities to all spell damage but positive / negative and force, and spell resistance.
I don't know a single DM who would allow this, though. How overpowered is that summoner when you've removed 8-12 points from his point buy? And then told him he can't cheese the age categories, either?
Really, you can do things like this for most classes, it doesn't mean the class, when used properly by people who aren't intent on completely ****ing on the intent and spirit of the rules, isn't a strong but completely reasonable party member.
I actually played this character in a Pathfinder game using 3.5 material. I posted though only the parts of it being pathfinder since most on these boards dont use 3.5 feats and prestige classes. A person i know wanted me to play in order to have a grop of 3 and i did not want to but he and the others would not leave me alone until i said yes so i did and played that. Btw reason i did not want to play was because it was a game were we all were undead. I btw was playing antipaladin instead of paladin but in life the character was a paladin. So ya it the character was much much more powerful in that game since cha = hp for undead. Just a little background on it and also i dont post character builds that i would not and/or have not played my self. The character starting at level 2 got all the way to level 18 b4 the game ended since the DM was finding it very difficult to challenge my character and the party ended up primarily buffing me with wizard and bard spells / abilities to make me godly then hid as i did the work or ran as far as they could then snipe with spells and what not. Character did not shell out a lot of damage but its ability to not be touched and laugh off all attacks that do manage to connect on nat 20s made it were the DM just could not do any thing effective against me.
Seranov |
Well, in that case, I'm pretty sure age categories don't even apply to undead things. It's just a matter of going way the hell out of your way to outright bend the system over to do things that it's not intended to do.
Of course things are going to seem broken when you're going out of your way to break them.
Psion-Psycho |
Not 100% sure if age applies to the dead but he allowed it since it can be argued that characters that stop aging still get the benefit from being of old age with out the decrease in physical stats like with the Alchemist's Eternal Youth Grand Discovery as a Pathfinder example. So he was willing to do that for me but i told him im fine with taking the penalties to role play the character's bridal bones and vulnerability of old age. Though i did power game and tweak the rules that i am extensively familiar with from roughly 35 years of gaming i do role play the characters i make and give in depth backgrounds some times as far as to its grandparents and explain the deaths of my siblings and have existing siblings with full names and job occupations even though all that work is not needed its nice to have to flush out the character. Btw character did not die of old age she just died while in old age from falling and not being able to get back up. Whats sad is that the DM loved my character most out of the entire party since i was the only1 that bothered to give background story and actually role play my character separating the knowledge i have from the knowledge my character has.
Seranov |
I'm sorry, but if the magic items you listed would have put you into heavily encumbered when not wearing them, no amount of backstory is going to explain why a stiff wind didn't snap you in half long before you became a summoner. When your maximum load is ten pounds, you'd have problems wearing clothes.
You went faaaaaar beyond powergaming. When you get to the point where you think that you can actually explain away 1 Strength and 1 Dexterity, you're beyond hope. The Synthesist is in no way designed to be played like that.
Psion-Psycho |
Thats what the eldelon is for since i use its Physical stats as a Synthesis and have it going at all times since i dont need to sleep. If i did need to sleep i would simply degear b4 going to bed then call out the edilon form when i wake up then regear as simple as that. Also i dont think some of those items have a listed weight like the rings.
Psion-Psycho |
Also if u think that is going far beyond power gaming then u still have a bit to learn mate since that was a simple hours worth of work for me when i 1st created it. I can do far worse with all the books at my disposal but i decided to take it relatively easy on him. Normal character construction for me take about 20 mins and i dont have fancy programs helping me out im still working with PnP.
Seranov |
When you've reached the point where you're attempting to justify things that would kill any normal character outright, yeah, that's beyond powergaming.
The ease of finding the age rules and the fact that the Synthesist replaces this is irrelevant to the fact that you're going out of your way to make the character FAR AND AWAY more powerful than it should be. That's outright bad faith.
Psion-Psycho |
@Seranov
believe what u want. I wont sugar coat that the character is powerful and im not attempting to justify that its power is beyond that of most. Im just saying if i really wanted to and given the time can make far better than that while using the rules as written like i did with it and power gaming can exceed the 2bit build i posted. Heck ive built a character that can defeat this character since i gave that DM full leway to use it as a BBEG if he ever saw fit since the group was done with the undead game and i know i would never ever be playing that character again. Also the post was for the OP to do with as (s)he saw fit since (s)he did ask for tips.
Archus Madwand |
One thing I've considered is making the the Synth use their own stats, but get the bonuses to Str/Dex that normal Eidolons get.
I've been thinking that the base form should provide physical stat mods instead of being a base. The mod could be the base form stat minus 10. Making the biped STR +6 DEX +2 CON +3 (maybe 2 or 4 to go with even)... So it no longer looks so awesome selling back all your physical stats like the 3.X Druid.
Another unrelated idea is for an option for synthesists to change the class Summon Monster to some sort of polymorph... Becoming the thing they would have summoned. Similar to eidolon where keep mental stats and use summoned physical to mod yours. Gain all abilities of summon (loosing out on action economy but otherwise no better than summoning other than possibly movement). Could just keep same Temp HP, HP, and Damage as if using eidolon. I'd probably require the change to be done while eidolon summoned as a temp reconfig of its ability and polymorph of character for small critters. When "summon" over revert back to eidolon form.
Thought of renaming the archetype to Channeler as the are channeling the powers and form of the beyond