I'm building a 20th level Bard and I'm finding that his WBL is large enough to experiment with some custom magical gear.
I want to optimize his action economy, and so I was thinking of making a Violin of Exquisite Accompaniment (Use Activated). The price should be (3x7x2000) 42,000g, and its activation should be a Free Action because the ability is subsumed in the items use (I use the violin in my Bardic Performance).
This allows me to Spend only 1 round of Bardic Performance for all of my BP specific abilities (that's what the spell does), and so long as I put in the time required to activate it, the violin will then maintain it without my having to spend additional rounds of BP.
I was then thinking, why not also add Virtuoso Performance under the same Use Activated premise, which will allow me to start a second performance for 2 rounds of BP. That should cost me an additional (4x10x2000x0.75) 60,000g.
So now I have these two Free Action, use activated powers on my violin which will basically let me maintain 2 simultaneous performances indefinitely (as in, until I stop maintaining them).
And then I thought, what if I made the Violin bow a Rod of Metamagic Quicken (Normal). It would be appropriately 2', the strings wouldn't be magical, but the rod could be shaped in such a way that I could thread new strings when ever I needed to. And so its just one rod with a specific, but solid shape.
And so now my hands are occupied, one with the Violin, and the other with the Rod (which is the bow required to play the Violin). Now I no longer need to cast Exquisite Accompaniment and Virtuoso Performance, freeing up an s-ton of casting options in the first and second rounds of combat, but I can also quicken my spells as well.
I also contemplated making these properties Continuous, making the Exquisite Accompaniment (3x7x2000x4)168,000g, and Virtuoso Performance (4x10x2000x4x0.75) 240,000g. But honestly 408,000g is nearly half my WBL and if the items activation is a free action anyhow... why bother?
Any thoughts on what I'm doing wrong, or how to do this better? :)
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Any thoughts on what I'm doing wrong, ...?
Practically everything. The magic items crafting rules are guidelines and it is very easy for a player making custom items to break them, and that is exactly what you are doing.
The first check you should do when creating a custom item is to look what similar items do.
So let' look what is the cost of items that give bardic performance rounds:
- harmonizing ability for armors, give +5 to perform, -5 to stealth, vulnerability to sound attack and 1 extra round of bardic performance at the end of each performance for 15.000 gp.
Even assuming start and stop your performances every other round to get the maximum benefit it, at most, will double your round of bardic performance and has a huge drawback.
Note that you can't to have 2 different bardic effects in play at the same time thank to this armor ability as it description say: "Beginning
a new bardic performance ends the effects of the previous
performance immediately."
- the Perfect golden lute that is a artifact an give a bard 6 extra perform rounds.
PERFECT GOLDEN LUTE
SLOT NONE
AURA strong transmutation CL 20th WEIGHT 3 lbs.
The perfect golden lute is said to be a flawless instrument; its tone and clarity are unrivaled. It is an instrument so fine it practically performs itself, granting anyone who plays it a +10 competency bonus on Perform (string instruments) checks with it. A character with ranks in Perform (string instrument) can play the lute to activate countersong, distraction, or fascinate (as the bardic performance abilities) as if he were a 1st-level bard, performing a number of rounds per day equal to
his Charisma modifier. If the user of the perfect golden lute is a bard, he adds +2 to the DC of all bardic performance abilities using the lute, and can use bardic performance with the lute for an additional 6 rounds per day.
So the only non artifact basis we have is the armor ability.
In the NPC guide a 20th level bard has 50 rounds of bardic performance.
I doubt that the armor price was based on a 20th level bard, but let's be generous.
Pricing the drawback is hard, but we can consider that a major ring of energy resistance will compensate for it, and halve that as sonic damage is relatively rare.
So removing the drawback is worth 28.000/2= 14.000 gp.
Net result: doubling your rounds of bardic performance is worth 29.000 gp. Rounding up and dividing by 50 we get 600 gp for each round of performance.
So your item has unlimited uses. We can say it will be used 1/hour day and consider that the equivalent of unlimited use.
3600 seconds divided by 6 give us 600 rounds of performance. So the ability to play a bardic performance for one day is worth at least: 600*600= 360,000 gp.
and that without the ability to play 2 performances at the same time. That alone should at least double the item cost. so now we are at 720,000 gp.
We are speaking major artifact level here.
Short version:
no sane GM will ever allow that in his game unless it is treated as major artifact.
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I want to optimize his action economy, and so I was thinking of making a Violin of Exquisite Accompaniment (Use Activated). The price should be (3x7x2000) 42,000g, and its activation should be a Free Action because the ability is subsumed in the items use (I use the violin in my Bardic Performance).
Second check: why it should be a free action to use it? The spell use a standard action, you are moving ti to a free action, so you should take that into account.
A quickened 3 level spell use a 7th level slot, something that don't exist for a bard.We are again the the artifact land, but looking the bar spell progression we could say that a phantom 7th spell slot could become available at level 19.
So the price of a swift action item casting that spell would be 7*19*2000)=266,0000-
Lower than the other number but still artifact land.
Any thoughts on what I'm doing wrong, ...?Practically everything.
Cool. I appreciate the help, though perhaps that's a bit strong for an introduction? I have seen you post similar information, and strangely aggressively, on item creation before, but you do not offer where you are sourcing your facts. I would find it useful to have links to those sources, especially for the math that you're suggesting.
I am not saying that any of this is correct, but please let me show you the sources I am basing my pricing and design on. And at the end, I will explain why this is not as powerful as you might assume.
First lets tackle the Use Activated as a Free Action (Note the bolded portion):
Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.
Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use, activation is not an action at all.
The first check you should do when creating a custom item is to look what similar items do.
Unfortunately, what you have suggested as pricing models are purely conjecture. I cannot follow an opinion on how to price items, and so I am asking how to do it by the rules as written.
Exquisite Accompaniment's specific ability is to maintain the BP cost of my performances. Virtuoso Performance allows me to start a 2nd performance while maintaining the first. Both are spell effects, and both are tied to using the item. Hence, their activation "takes no time at all, as it is subsumed by using the item," which I must to do initiate a Bardic Performance. I was not confused by this portion of the magic item creation rules. Your suggestion that one needs to Quicken the ability is nonsense, as the Use Activated rule is crystal clear. Sorry bud.
Harmonizing on Armor follows this rule:
Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.
Placing spell effects on items not worn on the body (weapons, the violin, etc) follows this rule:
Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.
Lets look at what the Perfect Golden Lute does, as its a Minor Artifact:
Perfect Golden Lute
Aura strong transmutation; CL 20th
Slot none; Weight 3 lbs.
Description
The perfect golden lute is said to be a flawless instrument; its tone and clarity are unrivaled. It is an instrument so fine it practically performs itself, granting anyone who plays it a +10 competency bonus on Perform (string instruments) checks with it. A character with ranks in Perform (string instrument) can play the lute to activate countersong, distraction, or fascinate (as the bardic performance abilities) as if he were a 1st-level bard, performing a number of rounds per day equal to his Charisma modifier. If the user of the perfect golden lute is a bard, he adds +2 to the DC of all bardic performance abilities[b] using the lute, [b]and can use bardic performance with the lute for an additional 6 rounds per day.
Destruction
The perfect golden lute shatters into splinters if a day passes in which no music is played within 1,000 miles of it, or if its bearer is killed by a bard spell or bardic performance.
The reason that this is a Minor (note minor) Artifact is that it grants class abilities. Artifacts go beyond the basic magical item creation rules, and are artifacts not simply because of their relative usefulness or power, but because they are 'weird.' A weapon with +10 worth of enhancements is as powerful as any Artifact, the only difference is that the +10 weapon falls within the basic rules.
In addition to the Lute granting class abilities, it increases a Bard's BP Save DC's by 2, and grants a +10 Competence bonus to his Perform (Strings) check. The +10 Competence bonus, and the 6 additional rounds of BP are common magical properties that can be gained using the basic magical item creation rules. They are not the reason that the Lute is an Artifact, and if the Lute only had the +2 DC and Granted Class abilities, it would still be a Minor Artifact.
Exquisite Accompaniment and Virtuoso Performance are not powerful spells, and Bards rarely need to employ them. The Violin is a Held item, which means that it can be disarmed, or I might drop it if I'm stunned. I must still begin a bardic performance, which takes up my swift action for round 1 and I must still spend 1 BP on starting that performance. In order to start a 2nd Performance via Virtuoso Performance, I must use my Standard action in round 1, or I must use my swift action in Round 2, and it will cost me 2 more rounds of BP. And so the only advantage that I'm getting is that both abilities are triggered as Free Actions, rather than my having to cast those spells in R1 and R2 along side my swift Bardic Performances.
None of this is game shattering, especially for the levels at which I would be able to afford this (111,500g Price). 111,500g is an awful lot for what the user would be getting out of it. Because my bard has the gold, and he's concerned about action economy, it makes sense for him to do this. Few other Bard's would be so willing. This is balanced, and the price seems high.
I agree with Diego that what you're trying to achieve is overly self-serving (which admittedly is the point of a bard that commissions a custom item for himself).
That said, the important thing to realize is that item creation rules are all subject to game balance consideration. For example true strike is a level 1 spell that "should" allow you to do some pretty crazy things in custom magic items - but you won't find any printed by Paizo because such an item would be game-breaking.
Now I'm not really sure why you go to such lengths anyway to "free up casting options in the first two rounds of combat" - from level 14 you start bardic performances as a swift action anyway - leaving you free to do what you will with your first few rounds of casting.
Creating unlimited double-barreled performances for your bard is, I think, definitely exceeding the balance boundaries of the game. Please reconsider.
I agree with Diego that what you're trying to achieve is overly self-serving (which admittedly is the point of a bard that commissions a custom item for himself).
Did he say that?
That said, the important thing to realize is that item creation rules are all subject to game balance consideration. For example true strike is a level 1 spell that "should" allow you to do some pretty crazy things in custom magic items - but you won't find any printed by Paizo because such an item would be game-breaking.
I've explained why it is not out of common game balance. Let me try saying it this way:
Because of those two spells, a bard can already launch 2 bardic performances by round 2, at level 10, both of which would only cost him 3 BP for the 10 rounds that Exquisite Accompaniment was active. And then at level 13 the bard can cast Shadowbard to activate a 3rd performance at no additional BP cost to himself. How long does combat typically last? It will almost always end before those 10 rounds are up. So by level 10, I'll only ever spend 3 BP each combat. Having those spell effects on a held item does not change the power dynamic compared to if I cast those spells.
What I have accomplished with this magical item is to move those two castings to my Use Activated item, effectively granting me the equivalent of an extra casting of each, but at the Cost of 111,500g. I do not spend less BP, nor do I launch my 2nd and 3rd Performances any faster. What I am then able to do is cast a Meaningful spell in R1, and then another meaningful spell in R2.
Now I'm not really sure why you go to such lengths anyway to "free up casting options in the first two rounds of combat" - from level 14 you start bardic performances as a swift action anyway - leaving you free to do what you will with your first few rounds of casting.
Creating unlimited double-barreled performances for your bard is, I think, definitely exceeding the balance boundaries of the game. Please reconsider.
This is pretty thick hyperbole :P and a bit dramatic for an advice thread. And Class optimization was never as needed as for a Bard.
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Maybe the PRD is a sufficient source?
Magic Item Gold Piece ValuesMany factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide.
If not you can wait about three months for the Ultimate campaign book, where there should be the final answer:
In an upcoming sourcebook, we're going to write additional material for the magic item crafting rules, further explaining and clarifying the nuances of how this works. I'm going to look over existing threads, FAQ entries, and FAQ-flagged threads, but I don't want anything to slip through the cracks, so I'm asking here: Is there anything else about the magic item crafting rules that could use more explanation or examples?
NOTE:
* We are not going to change the crafting rules from how they work in the Core Rulebook, so please don't ask us to. This book isn't going to invalidate the Core Rulebook.....
Harmonizing armor property is from Ultimate Equipment.
50 round of bardic performance for a 20th level bard is in the NPC codex.
What I have accomplished with this magical item is to move those two castings to my Use Activated item, effectively granting me the equivalent of an extra casting of each, but at the Cost of 111,500g. I do not spend less BP, nor do I launch my 2nd and 3rd Performances any faster. What I am then able to do is cast a Meaningful spell in R1, and then another meaningful spell in R2.
You have granted yourself unlimited casting of those spells, not "n extra casting of each". Big difference.
Maybe the PRD is a sufficient source?
Awesome, I can't wait. However, I'd still like to see how you validate your math based on the rules as printed, or are you conceding that its just how you do it at home?
You have granted yourself unlimited casting of those spells, not "n extra casting of each". Big difference.
Ok, I was putting it into terms of how useful and powerful it was. But you're right. What else grants "unlimited castings" of spell effects?
1. Cloak of Displacement, Minor (Blur, Constant, 2nd)
2. Cloak of Arachnida (Spider Climb, Web, Constant, both 2nd)
3. Carpet of Flying (Overland Flight, Constant, 5th)
4. Candle of Truth (Zone of Truth, Use-activated, 2nd)
5. Bottle of Air (Water Breathing, Constant, 3rd)
6. Boots of the Winterlands (Endure Elements, Constant, 1st)
7. Boots of Levitation (Levitate, On Command, 2nd)
8. Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location (Nondetection, Constant, 3rd)
[b[9. Amulet of the Planes (Plane Shift, Use-Activated but Unlimited, 5th)[/b]
10. Wings of Flying (Fly, Unlimited on use, 3rd)
11. Well of Many Worlds (works as a Portable Hole, which is Planeshift, Unlimited Use, 5th)
12. Robe of Eyes (a limited form of True Seeing, yet you're immune to Flanking, have Darkvision 120', lets her see Invisible and Ethereal creatures, and never loses Dex to AC; Constant, 5th)
13. Robe of the Archmagi (Antimagic Field, Mage Armor or Shield of Faith, Constant, 6th and 1st)
14. Ring Gate (a lesser effect of Gate which is 9th, but probably closer to a 4th level spell if you can find it, Unlimited on use)
15. Pipes of Sounding (Ghostsound, Unlimited on use, 0th)
16. Pipes of the Sewers (charm animal, summon nature's ally I, wild empathy, Unlimited on use 1st)
17. Necklace of Adaptation (a Specific but powerful form of Alter Self, Constant, 2nd)
18. Medallion of Thoughts (Detect Thoughts, Unlimited on use, 2nd)
19. Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic (As named, 1st and 0th)
20. Helm of Brilliance (Constant or Unlimited on use abilities including Daylight which also deals 1D6 damage each round to Undead, Flaming Weapon, Protection from Energy: Fire, 3rd, 2nd, and 3rd)
21. All of the Belts of, and Headbands of grants one of the Attribute Enhancement spells (2nd, Constant)
22. Hat of Disguise (Disguise Self, Constant, 1st)
23. Harp of Charming (Suggestion, Unlimited on use, 2nd for Bards)
24. Hand of the Mage (Mage Hand, Unlimited on use, 0th)
25. Eyes of Doom (Doom, Deathwatch, Constant, both 1st)
26. Eyes of Charming (Heightened Charm Person, Constant, effectively 4th)
27. Efficient Quiver (Secret Chest, Constant, 5th)
28. Dimensional Shackles (Dimensional Anchor, Unlimited on use, 4th)
29. Decanter of Endless Water (Control Water, Unlimited on use, 4th)
30. Darkskull (a portable Unhallow, Constant, 5th)
31. Cubic Gate (Notice that its Not An Artifact. Gate, Unlimited on use, 9th)
32. Crystal Ball (many different options, including True Seeing which is 5th, Unlimited on use)
33. Cloak of the Manta Ray (specific Beastshape II and Water Breathing, Constant, 4th and 2nd)
I've bolded some Equivalents and/or Analogues to the Violin that I'm proposing.
Maybe the PRD is a sufficient source?
PRD wrote:Magic Item Gold Piece Values
Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide.
That list in the spoiler is the list that the Violin should be compared to. I appreciate you offering your houserules on the matter, but this is a forum request on how to price items by the rules. I would price the Violin at the formula price of 111,500g if I were being strict, and that's comparing it to the Helm of Brilliance at 125,000g. However, its not nearly as powerful, and so I'd probably compare its value close to between Wings of Flying (50,000g), and Robes of the Archmagi (75,000g).
Is this a serious character or a theoretical exercise?
:) I'm writing up a guide on Summoner Bards and I have found that the WBL of higher level characters is obscene and difficult to spend. And so I wanted to figure out the Magical Item Creation rules so that I could suggest some useful custom gear. I would assume that players by level 20 have spent many real years getting their characters through many tough encounters over many equivalent years in game. I'm sure they'd commission or craft some personalized stuff :)
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You keep asking for a math breakdown. What people are trying to say is that math is the very last resort when designing custom items. All custom items are houserules and subject to GM approval/fiat. The pricing chart in the book is there as a last resort when there is no other way to come up with an appropriate price. Diego is following the rules by giving you his "houserule" pricing advice.
All custom items are innately houserules; there is no such thing as a RAW price for them.
Diego has it right; your item gives you infinite bardic performance and should be priced accordingly, not priced based on whatever spells it replicates.
Sorry if any of this came across as hostile, this is just something we see a lot of on the forums - a player trying to pull one over their GM by making a broken custom item using the "formula."
You keep asking for a math breakdown. What people are trying to say is that math is the very last resort when designing custom items. All custom items are houserules and subject to GM approval/fiat. The pricing chart in the book is there as a last resort when there is no other way to come up with an appropriate price. Diego is following the rules by giving you his "houserule" pricing advice.
All custom items are innately houserules; there is no such thing as a RAW price for them.
Diego has it right; your item gives you infinite bardic performance and should be priced accordingly, not priced based on whatever spells it replicates.
Sorry if any of this came across as hostile, this is just something we see a lot of on the forums - a player trying to pull one over their GM by making a broken custom item using the "formula."
I appreciate what you're saying, but sadly you're also saying that what you're saying is just your opinion. That's not helping anyone, now is it?
As to the bolded part: "We?" As in you and a the other regular players who have pushed houserules as fact? I'm also not trying to be hostile, but there seems to be an unfriendliness about this subject. Badgering the curious is useless. Thank goodness that Paizo is releasing an official book clarifying the matter. And those "formulas" that you're tossing aside are the rules; its a very sad thing that other folks might have been mislead into believing that the rules as printed don't matter, but that your house rules do.
And as for this:
Diego has it right; your item gives you infinite bardic performance and should be priced accordingly, not priced based on whatever spells it replicates.
Boots of Flying gives you infinite flying. The Violin gives me Infinite uses of Exquisite Accompaniment and Virtuoso Performance, which I'd use at most once per combat. It doesn't speed up the rate at which I can launch Bardic Performances, nor does it eliminate the BP cost as compared to if I just cast those spells. And what's really a kicker, is that by level 10, if I did not have the Violin, I'd only need to cast Virtuoso performance, definitely not till round 3 or 4 if at all. These spells are truly being over valued, and the formula price is spot on.
As far as comparing the Violin to other items, I did that in my last post, and the pricing is sound based on those comparisons. In the case of the Violin, its formula price is as expensive as it should ever be.
All that being said, I wanted to drop the formula price so that a bard could pick it up at an earlier level, and by studying the rules a bit more, I realize that I can drop the price by using the Limited Use formula. 3x/day each is enough, which will save ~30k.
And to gather more insight on this "We" statement, I ran across This Quote from Mr. Cheapy:
Tourist
Last I checked, you had a thread that was moved to the homebrew forum to fix the issues you perceive. Separate discussion threads seem to have been frowned upon by the mods.
Magic item creation in PF is meant to be easy, btw. If you don't like the magic item creation system in PF and want it to be more difficult then perhaps default Pathfinder isn't for you. I would say the best thing is to find another magic item creation system or a GM that will homebrew your preferred
Sean K. Reanolds isn't saying that the formula price shouldn't be adjusted, but he is saying that Magic Items in Pathfinder are more easily created. Which to me means that the formula price isn't just Developer Garbage, as they intended those prices to reflect those levels of power. James Jacobs has also said that the current rules will not change, all they're doing in the update is clarifying the rampant misconceptions (such as those above) that the system isn't working exactly as they want it to.
@darkwarriorkarg :) I appreciate the Rant and the bit after.
It seems that the bard especially carries around some unique equipment, musical instruments for one. At level 20 a character's WBL is 880,000g. After buying the best of everything that the Bard in my guide would need, I still had over 400,000g to spend. So it makes sense to acquire custom items which enhance his tactical theory, or take the burden of a particular ability off his casting list, etc. And by level 20, the Violin is about as significant as a Circlet of Persuasion.
I guess I should clearly state my own thoughts on the Rules, because the rules trump all house rules. I am putting forth that just because a customized magical item doesn't exactly resemble an existing printed item, doesn't mean its relative power and cost should go up, there's no support for this within the rule set. Its clear from the PRD that the Devs want us to compare not the exact abilities, but rather the number, level, and usefulness of a custom magical item; useful being to the general user.
And sometimes its better to say something three times :P but this is how I've come to my conclusion, based on the rules:
The Violin in the OP does the following: When I use the Violin, it acts as if I have cast Exquisite Accompaniment to maintain a Bardic Performance at no further cost. However, in order to maintain this effect, I must continue using the Violin. If I stop maintaining the performance because I am disarmed, etc, the BP also ends immediately. I can also choose to begin a second Bardic Performance via the Virtuoso Performance spell effect, which is then maintained by the Exquisite Accompaniment spell effect (if I have chosen to activate it beforehand). The BP Cost, and the time required to get 2 Performances up is identical to if I did not use the Violin.
If I did not have the Violin, I rarely would need to cast EA or VP at all, they're not at all necessary even in a long arduous combat-heavy adventure day, because bard's get a ton of BP rounds by level 10. Honestly I'd never choose to cast either over Haste, Good Hope, Dominate Monster, etc. because combat never lasts long enough to waste my action economy on them. I will show this in detail in my guide.
This item was specifically intended to put to use two low level, limited use spells.
This Violin is directly Akin to a Helm of Brilliance. Why? Because the Helm provides Constant, or Unlimited on-use spell effects. But is itself far more powerful because it also has powerful limited use effects, and all of its effects are useful to anyone who equips it. That helm is 125,000g. The Violin in the OP has a formula cost of 111,500g but is so much less powerful. It can also be compared to a Wings of Flying (cape), which grants unlimited use of the Fly spell effect, which is a far more powerful/useful thing to have. And that only costs 54,000g. I would go with the formula price because there's no personal bias in that, which means I'm following the rules. You know :P Those things that trump your house rules when we're not playing at your house?
As to the Violin being unique, so what? A Periapt of Health was once unique too, why would that raise its cost? Custom items are supposed to be unique, and tailored to best fit a character's needs, that's why we want them ;). Can we claim that it hasn't been done before? No, it just wasn't printed, everything has been done before. In all the thousands of years, and all of the civilizations that have come and gone, and of all those ambitious graduate mages trying to do something "new" and "innovative" do you really think that a magical spell effect violin wasn't conceived or commissioned?
99% of the time, the formula rules are fine. True Strike is an outlier, I'm sure there are a couple more, and as they are extreme exceptions, one should not declare the basic rules to be irrelevant.
You are indeed going backwards. The item should be constructed and then compared to other existing items to determine price. The price chart is a last resort. Regardless, a GM can determine the actual price to be anything they want.
For example, per the price grid a lot of the staves are dirt cheap. However, they're often priced in the hundreds of thousands of GP. Break down one of those items and you'll see they don't follow the pricing grid. There's a lot of touch and go in custom items. There are no set rules.
Also, use activated items take a standard action to use. Not a free one. The mental activation bit in the use activated description simply prevents you from provoking an attack of opportunity when you activate the item.
I don't know. However, the general pricing trend is that the more inherently awesome an item is the higher the price should be. I think there are some exclusions, or perhaps they're just not noticed as much as they happen over time, with bonded objects that can be improved.
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First, addressing the "magic item creation is supposed to be easy" comment. That discussion is referencing the skill DC to create for a character to create the item - those DCs are very low. That discussion has nothing to do with custom item design.
Here's some quotes from the PRD ("the rules")
The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.
Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point.
(emphasis mine)
So the very rules say not to use the formulas as a first resort, and even when you do, to make sure to modify the price based on the actual utility of the item. Sadly, pricing custom items isn't a math equation where you can just plug and chug numbers - it requires actual dialog between the GM and player.
Of course we can only give you houserule level advice on your proposed item - all custom items are by definition houserules. Your request to stick only to RAW on a non-RAW item is almost nonsensical.
Darkwarriorkarg, perhaps we just see different threads then, because I've seen at least three threads proposing use-activated true strike or continuous shield for some trivial amount of money in the last six months, let alone 3 years. "My item is use-activated so I can get a free spell off while doing something else that's also useful" is one of those warning signs that sets off an alarm in my GM brain. As you say, GMs vary, and if the OP intends to put this in a guide he needs to realize that many GMs will not allow it or will set different prices and indicate accordingly.
I'm building a 20th level Bard and I'm finding that his WBL is large enough to experiment with some custom magical gear.
I want to optimize his action economy, and so I was thinking of making a Violin of Exquisite Accompaniment (Use Activated). The price should be (3x7x2000) 42,000g, and its activation should be a Free Action because the ability is subsumed in the items use (I use the violin in my Bardic Performance).
This allows me to Spend only 1 round of Bardic Performance for all of my BP specific abilities (that's what the spell does), and so long as I put in the time required to activate it, the violin will then maintain it without my having to spend additional rounds of BP.
I was then thinking, why not also add Virtuoso Performance under the same Use Activated premise, which will allow me to start a second performance for 2 rounds of BP. That should cost me an additional (4x10x2000x0.75) 60,000g.
So now I have these two Free Action, use activated powers on my violin which will basically let me maintain 2 simultaneous performances indefinitely (as in, until I stop maintaining them).
And then I thought, what if I made the Violin bow a Rod of Metamagic Quicken (Normal). It would be appropriately 2', the strings wouldn't be magical, but the rod could be shaped in such a way that I could thread new strings when ever I needed to. And so its just one rod with a specific, but solid shape.
And so now my hands are occupied, one with the Violin, and the other with the Rod (which is the bow required to play the Violin). Now I no longer need to cast Exquisite Accompaniment and Virtuoso Performance, freeing up an s-ton of casting options in the first and second rounds of combat, but I can also quicken my spells as well.
I also contemplated making these properties Continuous, making the Exquisite Accompaniment (3x7x2000x4)168,000g, and Virtuoso Performance (4x10x2000x4x0.75) 240,000g. But honestly 408,000g is nearly half my WBL and if the items activation is a free action anyhow... why
...
For one, I don't know much about bards, but I would argue that even though Exquisite Accompaniment doesn't use your rounds of BP, Virtuoso does at a cost of 3 per round.
Your calculations are wrong too: First you calc out the most costly ability, then the next most with an additional 75% of the cost. So:
Continuous VP = (4*10*2000*4) = 320,000
Continuous EA = (3*7*2000*4*1.75) = 294,000
Total = 614,000
Use activated, the costs come out to this:
Use Activated VP = (4*10*2000) = 80,000
Use Activated EA = (3*7*2000*1.75) = 73,500
Total = 153,500
What I would do because The VP will still use up way too many rounds of BP
If it were me designing the item, I would put Exquisite Accompaniment as a continuous effect and then use activate VP to save on rounds of BP.
Continuous EA = (3*7*2000*4) = 168,000
Use Activated VP = (4*10*2000*1.75) = 140,000
Total = 308,000
.....Or..... save your money and buy something useful :)
Its not really that devestating. The price tag is huge and by the time it could be purchased, he could have stacks of scrolls and lesser quickening rods... It would probably be cheaper actually.
In an upcoming sourcebook, we're going to write additional material for the magic item crafting rules, further explaining and clarifying the nuances of how this works. I'm going to look over existing threads, FAQ entries, and FAQ-flagged threads, but I don't want anything to slip through the cracks, so I'm asking here: Is there anything else about the magic item crafting rules that could use more explanation or examples?
Somebody tell Sean to put "The final price on custom magic items is ultimately the DM's decision" in that book.
The item should be constructed and then compared to other existing items to determine price.
Ah, yes. I have done that several times now. It was a sound suggestion, and its clear that 111,500g is either right, or too high.
Compare: Helm of Brilliance 125,000g. Its not only more powerful and useful, its also worn on the body and so the price is escalated.
Then Compare: Wings of Flying 54,000g. Its about as powerful, granting unlimited uses of the Fly spell effect.
If you'd like to explain why exactly the violin is more powerful than either of these, please do. Simply stating it doesn't validate your position. We're discussing relative power, and that requires example. I have provided my own, please show me what you consider a more appropriate comparison.
Also: Bards already effectively get unlimited BP each day thanks to the existence of EA and VP. This violin doesn't change that.
For example, per the price grid a lot of the staves are dirt cheap. However, they're often priced in the hundreds of thousands of GP. Break down one of those items and you'll see they don't follow the pricing grid. There's a lot of touch and go in custom items. There are no set rules.
Doesn't it compel you to rethink this position given that someone has pointed out that a mistake was made and that now almost all items follow the basic ICR?
This will be useful to this discussion:
Its clear to me that I should look over the entire printed library and calculate the price for each item based on the rules. From the dozens that I've already done, nearly all of them follow the rules exactly. So far, it is an uncommon thing to see an item priced in an arbitrary way, but I have a feeling that I'm simply not finding which discount they applied. I have a feeling that the data will reveal the truth of the matter.
Also, use activated items take a standard action to use. Not a free one. The mental activation bit in the use activated description simply prevents you from provoking an attack of opportunity when you activate the item.
You are confusing Use Activated with Command Word. Use Activated items are a specific form of Continuous. The relevant section reads:
Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above, usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.
Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use, activation is not an action at all.
Use activation doesn't mean that if you use an item, you automatically know what it can do. You must know (or at least guess) what the item can do and then use the item in order to activate it, unless the benefit of the item comes automatically, such as from drinking a potion or swinging a sword.
So the very rules say not to use the formulas as a first resort, and even when you do, to make sure to modify the price based on the actual utility of the item.
Which I have done in response to your assertions. Perhaps you should address my comparisons? However, what you have quoted doesn't say to abandon the guideline, it suggests that you adjust it, not make up badly conceived random numbers.
As to the True Strike hysteria, its probably the one and only obvious example of a spell effect that doesn't play well with the power-logic of the ICR. Perhaps a small list of "Uh oh" cases should be listed, rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water. Truly, these strong opinions against the IRC formulas are baseless and cannot be justified.
It's not nonsensical, it's the classic last resort that munchkins use to justify the broken items they want to make the insistence that the DM subordinate his judgement to RAW text.
A basic course in rhetoric will remind you that poisoning the well, and ad-hominid do not make your position valid.
For one, I don't know much about bards, but I would argue that even though Exquisite Accompaniment doesn't use your rounds of BP, Virtuoso does at a cost of 3 per round.
Cool. The spell does not define that it only one effect. There is room for discussion here, but if a rule is numerically specific, it always defines that limit. It did not in the case of EA, and since it was released in the same book as VP, its safe to assume that it wasn't a mistake or a lack of foresight.
Your calculations are wrong too: First you calc out the most costly ability, then the next most with an additional 75% of the cost.
I'm reading the following:
Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.
It very clearly says Add 75% OF, not Add 75% TO. Have I missed errata? The very next section confirms that there is a discount:
Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.
However, I did make a mistake in the OP, noting pricing the highest cost ability first, which I then corrected in a subsequent post. The correct formula price is 111,500g. However, I wanted to reduce that price and so I added the Charges Per Day rule, gave each 3 uses per day, which dropped the cost by 3/5.
Its not really that devestating. The price tag is huge and by the time it could be purchased, he could have stacks of scrolls and lesser quickening rods... It would probably be cheaper actually.
:) Thank you, your perspective is more than welcome in this discussion. The Violin is simply neat, its not meant to break the game; and doesn't.
Valeros
Custom magic items are a dangerous beast that should not be trifled with.
The item as suggested is horrifically overpowered for the price.
Because I disagree, and have gone into great detail on why I feel the formula price is as expensive as it should be, probably should be less expensive, would you care to justify your position as well? You're simply wrong on this matter otherwise.
This being said, I really don't agree with teh OP adding custom items to a general use guide. At best, Improved versions of existing items (like a +5 celestial armour) should be considered.
The build is very economically efficient, not needing even half of its WBL by level 20. I have already given it the +5 Tome, the Headband of Mental Perfection +6, the metamagic rods, etc. With 400,000g left over, I am making a list of suggested custom items. Everything Is Always Left to GM Consideration. That doesn't mean that its not helpful, and Fun, to read suggestions. The guide will be as good with that section, as without it. And so, I've chosen to include it :)
The only part of the magic item creation rules that is a guideline is the table used for pricing magic items. This is the only part in the rule set that separates it as a guideline. Custom magic items are not excluded as there are rules to making them, it's just up to your GM to determine a price for these items.
There was a wonderful post by Darkwarriorkarg on the two extremes in GM thinking. I cannot write up a guide that tailors to either extreme, but I assume that no matter what I, Paizo, or Your Diety of Choice puts in print, that someone will always tailor it to their table. And so what I am suggesting is going as strictly by the printed rules as possible, leaving it to individual GMs to do what they choose to do with it.
It's also up to your GM to determine whether they should exist at all. The GameMastery Guide makes it very clear that just because an item can be priced by the rules, does not mean it's not something that can wreck a campaign.
I could price bows and swords of true strike by RAW. No sane DM however should allow them.
I get the impression from your many forum posts that you're at war with your players. As to your other bit about Sane GMs: Sane GMs aren't obsessed with their own assumed authority, mainly because they're playing with friends. In addition to that, a Skilled GM knows that if he allows a player to do something like add True Strike to his sword, that he must then start tailoring encounters with that as a consideration. Some GM love to customize their material, and they're perfectly within their wits to be permissive.
And is True Strike really the only Outlier example? Has True Strike really convinced everyone that the entire system is busted? Its an extreme exception, even its existence as a 1st level spell is an extreme exception. You go from lvl 0 Guidance +1 Attack bonus on your next strike (Standard Action to Cast), to lvl 1 True Strike +20 Attack bonus on your next strike (Standard Action to Cast).
I will do a complete set of calculations on the printed item costs and compare them to the ICR. I'm betting that there's almost no deviation from the formula, and the listed discounts. But only the data can prove this, and I'd suggest that the many people claiming that the system is arbitrary do something similar, else you're just making stuff up. ;P
EDIT: Formatting errors
Just because someone won't allow your munchkin toy doesn't mean the "entire system is busted".
I am the GM, and I would allow magic items to be priced by formula. Am I missing something? Because pricing can be tailored to fit the economy and power level of a campaign, it is better when posting items on a forum to price them by formula, and then to assume that individual GM's will either disallow the item, or adjust its price.
I am not doing anything wrong here, I'm following the rules. Your suggestion that I shouldn't bother listing custom items, in an Advice thread, is odd. If you don't like the item, or you have a comment on it specifically, I would understand if you explained your views. However, all I see from your responses is some weird need to assert that you have all of the power. Well, good for you. That doesn't change the fact that the rules are clear, and that when not at Your House, the official rules trump yours. Hence, I'm not asking people to smack my post around with conjectural opinions. I had asked what I had done technically wrong, which some have been kind enough to show me. The rest of these posts... its all badgering garbage. Your need to bully and insult (which is something you should be concerned with) does not make these forums your domain.
Yeah, Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew would be the proper place for this discussion :) I will post custom items in this section from here on.
Another thought that is totally RAW, just hit up your bard with a ring of wizardry and a couple quicken meta rods. It basically accomplishes the same thing, and you don't have to get slapped around on the forums all day :)
Paulcynic, taking a spell from a standard action to free is breaking a base assumption of spells that they generally take at least a standard action to cast. Few spells take up less time. This should up the price drastically.
Dr Gecko wrote:
Your calculations are wrong too: First you calc out the most costly ability, then the next most with an additional 75% of the cost.
I'm reading the following:Quote:
Multiple Similar Abilities: For items with multiple similar abilities that don't take up space on a character's body, use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus 1/2 the value of any other abilities.
It very clearly says Add 75% OF, not Add 75% TO. Have I missed errata? The very next section confirms that there is a discount:Quote:
Multiple Different Abilities: Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For items that take up a space on a character's body, each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.
However, I did make a mistake in the OP, noting pricing the highest cost ability first, which I then corrected in a subsequent post. The correct formula price is 111,500g. However, I wanted to reduce that price and so I added the Charges Per Day rule, gave each 3 uses per day, which dropped the cost by 3/5.
I must have glossed over the 75% rule because it seems silly to me that it would be easier to put additional abilities on an item even if they are similar.
I guess one could argue that the two spells you are trying to put on are not similar and would follow the +50% rule instead.
Of course if you really want to munchkin the item.. subtract 40% from the entire cost of the item and make it a "bard that has the perform lute" skill restriction on it to lower the cost.
Back to the VP & EA discussion:
Cool. The spell does not define that it only one effect. There is room for discussion here, but if a rule is numerically specific, it always defines that limit. It did not in the case of EA, and since it was released in the same book as VP, its safe to assume that it wasn't a mistake or a lack of foresight.
A cursory reading of the EA spell reveals this statement: "The instrument plays as you direct, and as long as it plays, you do not have to expend rounds of bardic performance from your daily allotment to maintain an effect"
I would argue that it seems that EA was numerically limited to only handle one effect. Meaning the extra effect provided by VP does not operate under the EA rules and costs BP rounds accordingly
Official is using the official published rules. A GM that alters these rules is home brew or fiat.
PFS doesn't allow item creation at all. Including items published in their books. Wizards lose scribe scroll as a bonus feat for spell focus at level 1.
Actually the item creation section says that the GM determines the final price. That is RAW.
Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth.
Who do you think determines "actual" worth? That can vary from campaign to campaign and even character to character or level to level. That's very much so a GM determination.
Paulcynic, taking a spell from a standard action to free is breaking a base assumption of spells that they generally take at least a standard action to cast. Few spells take up less time. This should up the price drastically.
Cool, I want to apologize for reacting strongly to aggressively asserted opinions. I understand what you're saying, Buri, on the matter of GM Fiat and I wholeheartedly agree with it in principle. But everyone already knows that everything is already GM Fiat. No one should have to preface with "I know you can do that if you'd like, you're the GM." Its a Given. Even so, had the first responder explained what you are trying to get across in the way that you're trying to get it across, I don't think so many walls would have been put up. "This is my opinion, and this is how we do it at home" is more appropriate than "My way is the correct way, the rules are bunk." And so I am generally sorry for my misapprehensions. Its just a game :)
As to this specific point, it is an excellent one to discuss. Its not ok, in my view, to assert that House Rules should be applied at any table but one's own. And in a public forum, such as this one, its useful only to discuss the facts of the rules, and then to offer suggestions within the boundaries set by the those very rules.
Lets look at what the printed material says on adjusting the price:
Other Considerations: Once you have a cost figure, reduce that number if either of the following conditions applies:
Item Requires Skill to Use: Some items require a specific skill to get them to function. This factor should reduce the cost about 10%.
Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use: Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the price by 30%.
Here we see the Devs saying that items should be deeply discounted if possible. That also sets a precedent for the bounds in which the conservative GM should operate.
Prices presented in the magic item descriptions (the gold piece value following the item's slot) are the market value, which is generally twice what it costs the creator to make the item.
Here we see them explaining that the creation cost is formulaic, but the market price would should vary. The violin that I had suggested was meant to be an Iconic, one of a kind sort of thing. Of course its market value would be astronomical, its the priceless beauty employed by Spoony while he pulled on the heartstrings of that Glabrezu, who then did the one and only good deed any Glabrezu has ever done. Raising or lowering the price isn't a matter of the rules, its a matter of market demand (aka balance). And so the cost to create such an item, by this very line, is not what you're actually adjusting as a GM.
Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth.
More support for my argument that Cost to Create is formulaic, but Market price might be higher or lower. But we should also discuss what exactly are they suggesting here? Some in this thread often argue that the rules are restrictive, than when in doubt round down sort of mentality, and yet on this topic they're quite liberal in how they price (astronomically so). That's an odd dichotomy. What support is Paizo offering the GM in gauging how to to swing the market price?
Well, right here:
The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staves follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.
At least some Judgement. Not throw everything out and declare these rules that they've Developed "irrelevant." A GM who makes up an entirely different number is obviously not following the Rules as Written; they're now totally in GM Fiat, Homebrew land. That's not the game we're discussing, we're discussing Pathfinder as it is written.
Now, there's also this:
Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.
They are literally saying: Compare it and price it within context of the printed items, or go with the formla.
Again, this is a way to gauge the market price, not a suggestion to throw out ICR. In nearly every case, items are either discounted, or follow the rules exactly. I'm still working through the equipment and comparing its formula price to its market price, but so far I'm not seeing anything priced up hundreds of thousands of GP over the formula price. Some of these printed items are extremely powerful, so much that they Are game breaking, and yet they're priced exactly by formula.
Paulcynic, taking a spell from a standard action to free is breaking a base assumption of spells that they generally take at least a standard action to cast. Few spells take up less time. This should up the price drastically.
This is incorrect, and I have already shown a list of 30 items which already do this. The fact that its an item that is Use-activated. Use. Activated. Those rules are clear, and all spell effects under that clause go at the speed of the use of the item. In this one, very unique case, using the Violin is a Swift action for a Bard starting a Performance, and a free action to maintain it. That is why the Use-activated time is Swift and Free. If it were attached to an action that took a Standard action, such as Drinking a potion, it would be Standard. I believe that a couple of classes can drink as a free action (Monk and Barb, maybe others), and so the Use-activation of drinking a potion would be a Free action.
1. Cloak of Displacement, Minor (Blur, Constant, 2nd)
2. Cloak of Arachnida (Spider Climb, Web, Constant, both 2nd)
3. Carpet of Flying (Overland Flight, Constant, 5th)
4. Candle of Truth (Zone of Truth, Use-activated, 2nd)
5. Bottle of Air (Water Breathing, Constant, 3rd)
6. Boots of the Winterlands (Endure Elements, Constant, 1st)
7. Boots of Levitation (Levitate, On Command, 2nd)
8. Amulet of Proof against Detection and Location (Nondetection, Constant, 3rd)
[b[9. Amulet of the Planes (Plane Shift, Use-Activated but Unlimited, 5th)[/b]
10. Wings of Flying (Fly, Unlimited on use, 3rd)
11. Well of Many Worlds (works as a Portable Hole, which is Planeshift, Unlimited Use, 5th)
12. Robe of Eyes (a limited form of True Seeing, yet you're immune to Flanking, have Darkvision 120', lets her see Invisible and Ethereal creatures, and never loses Dex to AC; Constant, 5th)
13. Robe of the Archmagi (Antimagic Field, Mage Armor or Shield of Faith, Constant, 6th and 1st)
14. Ring Gate (a lesser effect of Gate which is 9th, but probably closer to a 4th level spell if you can find it, Unlimited on use)
15. Pipes of Sounding (Ghostsound, Unlimited on use, 0th)
16. Pipes of the Sewers (charm animal, summon nature's ally I, wild empathy, Unlimited on use 1st)
17. Necklace of Adaptation (a Specific but powerful form of Alter Self, Constant, 2nd)
18. Medallion of Thoughts (Detect Thoughts, Unlimited on use, 2nd)
19. Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic (As named, 1st and 0th)
20. Helm of Brilliance (Constant or Unlimited on use abilities including Daylight which also deals 1D6 damage each round to Undead, Flaming Weapon, Protection from Energy: Fire, 3rd, 2nd, and 3rd)
21. All of the Belts of, and Headbands of grants one of the Attribute Enhancement spells (2nd, Constant)
22. Hat of Disguise (Disguise Self, Constant, 1st)
23. Harp of Charming (Suggestion, Unlimited on use, 2nd for Bards)
24. Hand of the Mage (Mage Hand, Unlimited on use, 0th)
25. Eyes of Doom (Doom, Deathwatch, Constant, both 1st)
26. Eyes of Charming (Heightened Charm Person, Constant, effectively 4th)
27. Efficient Quiver (Secret Chest, Constant, 5th)
28. Dimensional Shackles (Dimensional Anchor, Unlimited on use, 4th)
29. Decanter of Endless Water (Control Water, Unlimited on use, 4th)
30. Darkskull (a portable Unhallow, Constant, 5th)
31. Cubic Gate (Notice that its Not An Artifact. Gate, Unlimited on use, 9th)
32. Crystal Ball (many different options, including True Seeing which is 5th, Unlimited on use)
33. Cloak of the Manta Ray (specific Beastshape II and Water Breathing, Constant, 4th and 2nd)
Please look over that list, and make a comparison. That would be helpful.
Another thought that is totally RAW, just hit up your bard with a ring of wizardry and a couple quicken meta rods. It basically accomplishes the same thing, and you don't have to get slapped around on the forums all day :)
Hindsight and all that :P Something interesting that you're pointing out is that a Bard already can achieve unlimited BP each day, or more specifically he will have more BP than he will ever use in a 13 encounter adventuring day. I've run the numbers, and will include a section in my guide on this very topic. He can do so by level 10, and at 20 its such a non-issue that that I think most of those claiming "Too Powerful" are doing so without understanding the Bard.
The guidelines are clear, they give examples of what those guidelines are, and every part of the "Guideline" makes clear that one should price their custom items within the bounds of either an example "Its as Powerful as a Robe of the Archmagi, and so we'll price it as 75,000g" or "I don't see a fit comparison, and so I'll stick with the Formula Price, which is going to be higher than it probably should be." That's what they've said. They certainly haven't said "GMs should make up a baseless method of pricing."
But its Your Table, your houserules are perfectly fine in that context ;) That is not the game that I'm discussion, I'm discussing Pathfinder's ICR. :)
Khrysaor, this is awesome :) This is a useful way to discuss the ICR.
Your item is use activated, you begin a performance with your violin expending 1 round of performance and it creates the illusory image. At bard13+ this is a free action to activate. This image lasts indefinitely until you want it to end and still follows the spell mechanics for requiring another round of performance to change its type.
Huh, I think you're right. I just assumed that once I stopped using the Violin, hence stopped maintaining a performance as a free action, that it would then deactivate. If an enemy tore your cloak off, you'd certainly lose the benefits, it would make sense that the spell effects cloak would cease as well because you've lost the ability to "mentally activate" it. No one is controlling the cloak, so it shuts down. I'll have to look more into it.
This item isn't really within the realm of game breaking. A level 20 bard could have 50 rounds of performance a day. With a single feat, lingering performance, this increases to 150 rounds and easily covers a days worth of performance.
Yep, this is just as true at level 10. Bards reach a point where they no longer need to worry about BP.
The guidelines to pricing items are really well proportioned as long as they are followed and applied properly. They're the guidelines used to price the majority of the official, published items. Much of the fear mongering that resonates from magic item creation comes from inappropriate application of the rules and the few corner cases that require more attention.
100% agree. Plus, putting the price into context, the violin is 111,500g, at level 15 that's 47% of his WBL. At this point in his career, he'd never choose the violin over a Headband of Mental Superiority, or Robes of the Archmagi, nor even a Metamagic Rod of Quickening. Its only at 18th level that this particular build runs out of "Absolute Best" things to buy and his income becomes discretionary. So he might commission it at 18th, but probably isn't going to do so until 20th, when he's an uber powerful rock star anyhow. Its then his Signature Item :)
But yes it's up to the GM to allow the rules or not. If the rules are allowed, it's up to the GM to determine the value of the item if the guidelines allow for something that is mechanically superior at a cheap price. Or if it has drastic impact to the game at an unreasonable price.
LazarX wrote:
official is whatever the local DM declares it to be. and PFS does not allow custom item creation AT ALL.Official is using the official published rules. A GM that alters these rules is home brew or fiat.
There are really only a couple of cases to be worried over, and I would agree that they'd need to be made to conform with the other 99% of cases that aren't troublesome. Bolded bit sounds right :)
Let's look at the use activated ones. Constant is constant so it's useless to list that they require no action. I do this as you're saying that use activated for your item should a free action but not a constant effect.
4. Candle of Truth (Zone of Truth, Use-activated, 2nd) - When burned. This would likely be a move action at least if done during combat.
7. Boots of Levitation (Levitate, On Command, 2nd) - Standard action.
9. Amulet of the Planes (Plane Shift, Use-Activated but Unlimited, 5th) - Standard action.
10. Wings of Flying (Fly, Unlimited on use, 3rd) - Standard action.
11. Well of Many Worlds (works as a Portable Hole, which is Planeshift, Unlimited Use, 5th) - It's not simply planeshift. It's random. Also, a constant effect.
14. Ring Gate (a lesser effect of Gate which is 9th, but probably closer to a 4th level spell if you can find it, Unlimited on use) - Also a constant effect provided proximity.
15. Pipes of Sounding (Ghostsound, Unlimited on use, 0th) - When played aka probably a standard action.
16. Pipes of the Sewers (charm animal, summon nature's ally I, wild empathy, Unlimited on use 1st) - Must play. At least a standard action.
18. Medallion of Thoughts (Detect Thoughts, Unlimited on use, 2nd) - Standard action.
19. Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic (As named, 1st and 0th) - Constant. Cheap but very limited and grants no inherent power from its use.
20. Helm of Brilliance (Constant or Unlimited on use abilities including Daylight which also deals 1D6 damage each round to Undead, Flaming Weapon, Protection from Energy: Fire, 3rd, 2nd, and 3rd) - All single use. Worthless once jewels are used up.
23. Harp of Charming (Suggestion, Unlimited on use, 2nd for Bards) - When played. Standard action.
24. Hand of the Mage (Mage Hand, Unlimited on use, 0th) - Standard action.
28. Dimensional Shackles (Dimensional Anchor, Unlimited on use, 4th) - Constant.
29. Decanter of Endless Water (Control Water, Unlimited on use, 4th) - Standard action.
31. Cubic Gate (Notice that its Not An Artifact. Gate, Unlimited on use, 9th) - Arguable as swift action.
32. Crystal Ball (many different options, including True Seeing which is 5th, Unlimited on use) - Useless without other spells. At least a standard action when able to be used.
I hope you see the overwhelming trend from a balance perspective. From this list you're saying you either want a constant effect or one that is unlimited-use. As I've shown those quite generally take a standard action to use with some variation. Also note that one of the more blatantly powerful items becomes absolutely useless outside of being a nice hat.
I appreciate this sort of discussion, thank you for going into this level of detail. Also, please note that I am not looking to Game my GM. I'm the GM, and I want to understand how the rules work. That's my motive. Even so, I do not see what you're seeing, but perhaps we can end up on the same page.
Quinley Basdel
Let's look at the use activated ones. Constant is constant so it's useless to list that they require no action. I do this as you're saying that use activated for your item should a free action but not a constant effect.
There are a couple of passages which might be causing confusion.
This passage opens the section on Activation:
Activating a magic item is a standard action unless the item description indicates otherwise. However, the casting time of a spell is the time required to activate the same power in an item, regardless of the type of magic item, unless the item description specifically states otherwise.
Then it details the four types of Activations:
The four ways to activate magic items are described below.
1. Spell Completion: Standard by default.
2. Spell Trigger: Standard by default.
3. Command Word: Standard by default.
4. Use-activated: Launched at the Speed of the action required to trigger the effect.
Let me quote the entire passage in a spoiler for ease of discussion:
Many use-activated items are objects that a character wears. Continually functioning items are practically always items that one wears. A few must simply be in the character's possession (meaning on his person). However, some items made for wearing must still be activated. Although this activation sometimes requires a command word (see above), usually it means mentally willing the activation to happen. The description of an item states whether a command word is needed in such a case.
Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all and does not provoke attacks of opportunity, unless the use involves performing an action that provokes an attack of opportunity in itself. If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action. If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use, activation is not an action at all.
Use activation doesn't mean that if you use an item, you automatically know what it can do. You must know (or at least guess) what the item can do and then use the item in order to activate it, unless the benefit of the item comes automatically, such as from drinking a potion or swinging a sword.
The entire passage is explaining why this sort of activation is different than the other three. Firstly Use-activated is lumped into the same category as Continuous. They are the same basic concept, except that Use-activated only functions when used.
Specific Line References:
Unless stated otherwise, activating a use-activated magic item is either a standard action or not an action at all
What would cause it to be a Standard action? It explains explicitly that the action required to get to the effect takes a standard action; see Drinking a Potion.
This is exactly what they're explaining here:
If the use of the item takes time before a magical effect occurs, then use activation is a standard action.
You must drink a potion, the act of drinking takes a Standard action. However, if you can drink a potion as free action, as a power granted by your class (Monk or Barbarian), then that's the speed at which you can trigger the effect. Another example is the Lantern of Revealing. You have to Light it, which "takes time before a magical effect occurs." The act of lighting the lantern is the reason that it takes a standard action, at which point the Spell-effect is "subsumed in its use."
If the item's activation is subsumed in its use and takes no extra time use, activation is not an action at all.
Interposing a Shield, Swinging a Sword, Playing a Violin. The Spell effect is triggered automatically upon use, at the will of the user. A Bard can use the Violin as part of the Swift Action of starting a Bardic Performance. After that, he can use the Violin as a Free Action to maintain that Performance. In the hands of a lower level Bard, or a non-Bard who has somehow been granted the ability to use Bardic Performances, this would launch at the appropriate speed. Bardic Performances launch as Standard actions for Bards up to level 6. At level 7, it becomes a Move action, and at 13th it becomes a Swift action.
You're confusing this issue by assuming that the spell-effect must be "cast" on a Use-activated item. This is not at all the case, and the above quotes show that.
Use-activation is "Not an action at all," as in "In and Of Itself." You cannot toss out Use-activation simply because the base-line rule for all other magical items is explicitly Standard. Why do you assume the above passage was included? It clear that it was an exception to the basic rule; that is how this game works, "Passage A) Everything Works This Way. Passage B) This Passage does not follow the basic rule and Works This Way instead."
4. Candle of Truth (Zone of Truth, Use-activated, 2nd) - When burned. This would likely be a move action at least if done during combat.
7. Boots of Levitation (Levitate, On Command, 2nd) - Standard action.
9. Amulet of the Planes (Plane Shift, Use-Activated but Unlimited, 5th) - Standard action.
10. Wings of Flying (Fly, Unlimited on use, 3rd) - Standard action.
11. Well of Many Worlds (works as a Portable Hole, which is Planeshift, Unlimited Use, 5th) - It's not simply planeshift. It's random. Also, a constant effect.
14. Ring Gate (a lesser effect of Gate which is 9th, but probably closer to a 4th level spell if you can find it, Unlimited on use) - Also a constant effect provided proximity.
15. Pipes of Sounding (Ghostsound, Unlimited on use, 0th) - When played aka probably a standard action.
16. Pipes of the Sewers (charm animal, summon nature's ally I, wild empathy, Unlimited on use 1st) - Must play. At least a standard action.
18. Medallion of Thoughts (Detect Thoughts, Unlimited on use, 2nd) - Standard action.
19. Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic (As named, 1st and 0th) - Constant. Cheap but very limited and grants no inherent power from its use.
20. Helm of Brilliance (Constant or Unlimited on use abilities including Daylight which also deals 1D6 damage each round to Undead, Flaming Weapon, Protection from Energy: Fire, 3rd, 2nd, and 3rd) - All single use. Worthless once jewels are used up.
23. Harp of Charming (Suggestion, Unlimited on use, 2nd for Bards) - When played. Standard action.
24. Hand of the Mage (Mage Hand, Unlimited on use, 0th) - Standard action.
28. Dimensional Shackles (Dimensional Anchor, Unlimited on use, 4th) - Constant.
29. Decanter of Endless Water (Control Water, Unlimited on use, 4th) - Standard action.
31. Cubic Gate (Notice...
As to these specific examples, where you focused on how quickly the effects launch, rather on comparing the power of the Violin to the Power of the power of those items listed, lets discuss why some of your assertions are correct, and some not.
Firstly, anything that requires a Command Word is already defined as automatically a Standard action.
Example, Boots of Levitation:
On command, these boots allow the wearer to levitate as if she had cast levitate on herself.
So that is why it is a Standard action to activate.
Then we have what appear to be unspecified cases, such as Amulet of the Planes:
This device usually appears to be a black circular amulet, although any character looking closely at it sees a dark, moving swirl of color. The amulet allows its wearer to utilize plane shift. However, this is a difficult item to master. The user must make a DC 15 Intelligence check in order to get the amulet to take her to the plane (and the specific location on that plane) that she wants. If she fails, the amulet transports her and all those traveling with her to a random location on that plane (01–60 on d%) or to a random plane (61–100).
It doesn't say that its a Use-activated item, Continuous, Spell Trigger, nor Spell Completion. There's no listed Command Word. And so what other tests can we apply?
Well, it says right here under Command Word:
If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it.
So the Amulet of the Planes takes a Standard action.
But what about Candle of Truth?
This white tallow candle, when burned
Notice that in this example, an Activation Method is Suggested. So, what is the speed at which it takes to light a candle? You've gone into the realm of guessing that it would be a Move action. That's reasonable, but that also supports what I'm saying about the Spell effect activating at the speed it takes to use the item. Activation depends on how quickly you use the item.
But is there a hard rule on lighting candles? No examples that explicitly call out Lighting things, but there's
1. Pick up an item - Move action
2. Open or close a door - Move action
3. Retrieve a stored item - Move action
4. Drop an item - Free action
5. Prepare spell components to cast a spell - Free action
I'd say it takes longer to light a candle than it does to drop an item. It takes about the same amount of time to Retrieve a stored item. So its most likely a Move action.
Wings of Flying "When the wearer speaks the command word" so Standard.
Well of Many Worlds "Anything placed within it is immediately cast to another world" Although continuous, it takes a move action to place something in it (see speed of common actions just above).
Pipes of Sounding "When played by a character who has the Perform (wind instruments) skill" So a Swift action if used as part of a Bardic Performance, or a Standard action or longer as the Perform skill dictates. The only question here is: What is the duration of the triggered effect? I'm guessing it stops its effect when you stop using the flute.
Pipes of the Sewers "he piper must continue playing until the rats appear" So not a standard action exactly, but this is a Use-activated item whose use is "subsumed in its use" and the time it takes is defined within the description, which can be many rounds. So the Spell effect is working from round one, but the actual effect may not arrive due to distance. Because you must continue playing or else the effect ends, this is a Full-round action.
Medallion of Thoughts - Nothing specified, so Command Word, thus Standard action.
Helm of Comprehend Languages and Read Magic - No Activation or action specified, so Command Word, thus Standard Action. The rules on activation do not care about how cheap or effective an item is, not sure that your comment is relevant.
Helm of Brilliance "manifests its powers when the user dons it and speaks the command word" also says "may be used once per round" So this one is complex. To use any of the abilities requires the Command word, so activating access to everything is a Standard action. To use the Gems, there is no specified activation or use, so also Command word, one per round as a Standard action, the user may activate a gem.
It continues: "It emanates a bluish light when undead are within 30 feet" So long as the helm has been activated, this is a Constant ability.
"The wearer may command any weapon he wields to become a flaming weapon. The command takes 1 round to take effect." So requires a Command word after the helm has been activated, so Standard action. But you wont get the effect till next round because that clause explicitly calls out that exception.
"The helm provides fire resistance 30." Same as the blush light, once the helm has been activated, Constant.
Harp of Charming "When played" So use activated, at the speed at which the user can "Play." Swift if activated along side a Bardic Performance, Standard otherwise. Except that the user must play for 10 minutes before he can make his check, so the activation speed is irrelevant considering the 10 minutes worth of playing required.
Hand of the Mage - Nothing specified, so Command word, thus Standard action.
Dimensional Shackles - Any creature bound within them is affected. How long will it take you to bound a creature? Its activation is subsumed in its use. So activation goes at the speed of the action required to use the item. Its not Constant. Its Use-activated.
Decanter of Endless Water "If the stopper is removed" and "Separate command words determine the type of water as well as the volume and velocity" So the stopper being removed is probably a free action taking the same amount of time as preparing spell reagents (see above). But to activate a specific effect its calls for a Command word, so Standard action to activate. After that it stays active until you Stopper it, or speak another command word to change the effect.
Cubic Gate "If a side of the cubic gate is pressed once" and "Pressing the side a second time closes the gate" and "If a side is pressed twice in quick succession" How long does pressing a side take? This is a Use-activated item, so probably a move action. However, nothing happens for at least a minute in the first case. In the second case, closing the gate is a Move action, and in the third case its also a Move action.
I am guessing that you're eyeballing the effect and making judgement calls. The rules are explicit though, logical as well, and should probably be followed in all cases.
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One of the problems is that use-activated items generally shouldn't be designed to do things the way you are doing them. You are making a "get something for nothing" item, in that you are getting free spell castings without using actions to do them. It's like the difference between these two proposed items:
Lockpicks that cast knock when you use them
Boots that cast levitate whenever you jump
See the difference? The second item is doing something for free when the user does something else that's potentially useful. "Use-activated" is not meant to be a way to get a bunch of spells for no action while also doing other useful things - else why not make a sword that casts shocking grasp, bestow curse, and flesh to stone every time you swing it?
But I think we're getting a little hung up on the fact that your item casts a spell. Let me take away the spell names and redescribe what I think you want: You want a violin that continues playing bardic music on its own once the bard has started playing it. I guess it floats there in the air and keeps playing. That seems reasonable, put a rounds limit on it and it's probably not broken.
You also want the bard to start a second performance, with the same violin, and have it magically maintained as well. That's getting a little weirder to me, and is a much more powerful ability. We're still looking at two rounds to get going - only one swift action a round to start bardic performance. Lets presume the main effect lasts for 10 rounds(this item will likely be caster level 10 as it uses a 4th level bard spell in creation) - I'd put a restriction that the "double performance" uses up rounds twice as fast, so you reduce the duration accordingly. That also seems like a good way to combine the two spells that this item is based off of.
Next you want the violin to quicken three bard spells a day. This ability doesn't synergize well with the rest of the item and seems tacked on. The bard can't even cast a quickened spell in the same round he starts performing (only one swift action a round). But adding already designed abilities to items is pretty straightforward, and the bard would have to hold the bow of the violin to use it.
So my cost analysis, trying to be as free from hyperbole as possible:
(assuming you want the music effects 3/day)
3/day continues bardic performance once started for 10 rounds:~35000-40000. Honestly it's nice but not world shattering.
3/day lets the bard start a second performance and also maintains it. Let's say it eats up duration like virtuoso performance so the "double song" only lasts 3 rounds. Maybe 70000-80000 for this effect?
That actually puts your 115000 estimate in the right ballpark for those two effects. Here's an item to compare it to - this item lets a bard get free uses out of a signature ability. The wizard equivalent would be a echoing metamagic rod, the greater version of which would be 121500 gp, so also in the right ballpark.
Now, adding in the Quicken ability would simply add 75500*1.5=113250 gp for the unrelated ability. Actually adding in a metamagic rod of Echoing spell would be more flavorful, and keep the theme of the item better.
Sorry for the wall of text. Basically I think your 115000 is about right for the effect once we move away from the idea of "free spellcasting" and examine what the violin actually does.