So I'm trying to build a Rogue enemy for a level 12 party. Despite the threat title, she's not technically a BBEG, but I want it to be a memorable encounter from which the Rogue has at least a chance of escaping to torment the PCs again.
Here are the restrictions:
15-point buy
Straight dex rogue (no greataxe etc.)
Straight rogue levels
The PCs will be returning from what they think is the end of their adventure, weary and triumphant, and they'll need to stop at a certain inn along the way. I plan to have her kill the innkeeper, pose as him, then set the inn on fire when the PCs go to sleep and wait out front with her fighter buddy. She could theoretically toss a couple flasks of inhalation poison into the main room of the inn so they'd have to run through it on their way out. Or would she be better off just trying to sneak into their rooms and CDG them one by one?
This is what I've come up with so far:
NE human rogue (poisoner) 12
hp 87 (12d8 + 24 con + 6 favored class)
Fort +6, Ref +13, Will +7
10 str, 20 dex, 14 con, 11 int, 12 wis, 10 cha
Feats & Talents
1st: Improved Initiative, Shadow Strike
2nd: Finesse Rogue
3rd: Iron Will
4th: Resilience
5th: Dodge
6th: Minor Magic (Ghost Sound)
7th: Combat Reflexes
8th: Major Magic (Vanish)
9th: Deceitful
10th: Opportunist
11th: Extra Rogue Talent (Crippling Strike)
12th: Deadly Cocktail, Lasting Poison (6 favored class)
She'll have a level 12 two-handed intelligence fighter (piledriver + greater trip) to fight alongside for flanking purposes. Her weapon will have deathblade and purple worm poison (each at a -2 DC) that will last for 2 hits. If she hits the same PC twice, duration of each poison will be extended to 9 rounds.
Vanish can be used to find cover/reapply poison to her weapon or just to run away. Rings of protection and mind shielding (since she'll be posing as an ally to the PCs for some time). Shadow Strike, Resilience, Iron Will, and Dodge are basically feat taxes to help ensure a Rogue can use her class abilities and isn't immediately splattered.
Stealth, Bluff, Disguise, Acrobatics, Perception, and UMD will all be maxed. Any ideas on what the most useful UMD scrolls/etc. are for a Rogue?
As I build this, though, I can't shake the feeling that it sucks and will get completely blown out of the water. I can make a level 12 Vivisectionist that does almost everything my Rogue can do better while also nullifying everything it does (immunity to poison and 50% immunity to SA, plus a bunch of other immunities). Also, Spontaneous Healing is so much better than Resilience it's not even funny.
But I want to make a straight Rogue useful in an ambush scenario...or at least not die without doing anything. Advice other than "Rogues suck, don't build a Rogue" is welcome.
LOL stealing the spellcaster's component pouch is certainly one of the more amusing ideas I've heard in a long time.
I'm actually interested in both questions: how to build an encounter where this Rogue shines, but also how to build a better Rogue in general.
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Definitely a lot of what Nicos said. Rogues, particularly BBEG rogues, are going to work best if they've had a chance to prepare the area they'll be fighting in. Use traps fairly liberally, maybe tuck a few pre-loaded crossbows around (with the bolts pre-poisoned of course!). Make sure that she's got a few wands tucked for things like Invisibility or Darkness. Maybe some concealed pits or stacks of crates rigged to fall at the right time.
Not only will it up the odds of your rogue surviving the encounter, the party should enjoy the challenge quite a bit more.
Make tons of narrow passages and have her snipe at them all the way till the end. That will whittle away at some resources of the party, you could even have two snipers and one big bad, when the pcs finally confront the boss, the snipers chime in halfway through the fight.
The scout archetype is going to pull off more SAs in that fight. Make them sting!
The only problem with wands, I suppose, is that the minimum cost for a Wand of Vampiric Touch that does 2d6 damage (5th-level caster) is 11,500 gp, and a 12th-level NPC should only have 16,350 gp worth of equipment in total, so that leaves very little for things like armor, weapons, and poisons (which, despite being reduced to 1/3 by Craft (alchemy), are quite expensive).
The minimum cost for a Wand of Touch of Slime is 21,000 gp, more than I can theoretically spend on the entire NPC.
cant take shadow strike at first level, swap it with iron will. You have to have a bab of 1
not that it matters really
Well if the rogue knows the party is the enemy, but the players don't know yet.... the stealth/bluff/sleight of hand thing would be really nasty.
I think a little mini gang of thieves (3-5) would be a better encounter... no big fighter.
The main rogue you can leave as is. Have some flanking buddies that are decent but nothing over powering and some other axe catchers that will fall quickly but will be an player pleasing squish none the less.
Maybe it's a busy tavern. The Inn keeper, bar maid, cook, stable boy....all impostors and part of this main villains little gang.
Maybe they aren't necessarily after the party exactly, but anyone and everyone that would be an unwary traveller. The party just looks like a good mark?
Nicos, I thought I couldn't have Poisoner and Scout at the same time but I see that I can. Thanks for the idea.
I drew this up as a Human for argument's sake, but technically I'm using a Changeling (from Eberron, with +2 to stat of choice). She and the mute half-orc Fighter (who actually has more int and wis than she does and a pretty cool backstory) are members of a group of assassins that were hired to kill the PCs as they got closer to unravelling a conspiracy involving an antipaladin and the fate of nations etc. etc. The half-orc might be quietly sitting in a chair by the fire with the hood of his cloak up while the PCs have dinner. Maybe a couple of squishy mooks?
They also have a diviner buddy who won't actually be at the fight this time...his job is more to find the marks.
The inn is relatively quiet. It's a roadside inn in the middle of nowhere that gets business from travellers between the PC's home town and a larger city. They've stopped at this inn before, so they know this innkeeper (who is also the cook) and his young daughter (who normally waits tables and manages horses) moderately well. I do plan on roleplaying it out and giving them a Perception check to notice that the daughter (who's always around) is not around, and also a Sense Motive against the Disguise and Bluff checks of the Changeling Rogue (though with Deceitful and Minor Shape Change, her Bluff check is +21 and her Disguise check is +29). After the inn burns down, assuming they win the encounter (whether or not the "innkeeper" manages to flee...I haven't actually worked out an escape plan yet, but the two assassins will realise quickly that it's not working out for them and flee after taking a bit of damage), if they search through the burnt timbers and rubble, they'll be able to find a charred metal chest containing the recognizable remains of the innkeeper and his daughter.
My image for this encounter is basically the PCs waking up in a burning building, stumbling to put their armor on and grab their gear while inhaling smoke and possibly taking burn damage while not knowing WTF is going on, then stumbling outside to see the half-orc fighter waiting for them with his greatsword drawn and a grim look on his face. Then, as they come outside, the first person through the door takes a short sword to the liver and looks over to see the innkeeper whom they trusted all these years pull the blade out with a faint, sadistic smile on 'his' face...
If he's going to feed them, what's preventing him from adding a little 'extra' something in their food?
I thought about this a little and I guess she wouldn't want to make anyone visibly ill and rouse their suspicions too early on, but something with less obvious side effects or delayed onset time could definitely find its way into their food.
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Human
Rogue - Scout, Sniper
str 10
dex 15 (+2 racial)(+3 leveling) = 20
con 14
int 14
wis 10
cha 08
01- Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot
02- Weapon Training (Shortbow)
03- Deadly Aim
04- Bleeding Attack
05- Run
06- Slow Reactions
07- Rapid Shot
08- Combat Trick (Manyshot)
09- Vital Strike
10- Feat (Combat Reflexes)
11- Snap Shot
12- Fast Stealth
-Method-
After setting the inn on fire have the rogue wait outside 30ft away from the entrance with the fighter between the door and the rogue. When the party comes out that will trigger the rogue's ready action to attack the 1st person that runs out the building. That person would be flat footed to the attack and take sneak attack dmg and bleed from Bleeding Attack. After which surprise round starts with the fighter and rogue attacking the flat footed party meaning more SA and the ability to apply bleed to all party members. After the party is bleeding use the Slow Reactions ability instead of Bleeding Attack off ur SAs to make it were the party cant get in AoO for when the fighter needs to move to other targets. Typical tactic of rogue will be move at least 10ft then perform a Vital Strike attack and SA dmg. If party charges the rogue have the fighter charge the charger and have it start tripping the party. Fighter will need improved and greater trip so the trips provoke for all around the tripped target. When the tripped target provokes the rogue will be able to attack via Snap Shot and Combat Reflexes. If things get out of hand rogue runs in2 forest with the run feat. In the forest use fast stealth to move at ur speed while stealthed for assured escape.
something that would make them sleepy/lethargic.
give them things like the flat footed condition if they dont make a will save, nothing too nasty, just a roll thats possible to fail, give the PCs the idea of added danger(especially fighting a rogue), they idea that this poison is REALLY bad and they need to finish this fight really quick, and the idea SOMEONE should have memorized neutralize poison!
Hmm. I could give her one more level and make a rogue 10/shadowdancer 3 for HIPS, darkvision, and a shadow companion (as well as uncanny dodge if it was lost for Scout). Then with Crippling Strike, purple worm poison, and the shadow's attacks, legitimate amounts of str damage and flanking could occur.
I do also like the idea of a sniper lurking in the woods...maybe a vishkanya rogue with sleep venom?
Psion-Psycho, can you ready an attack that occurs BEFORE the surprise round starts? Wouldn't that attack take place IN the surprise round? I admit I'm not an expert on how surprise round works...
Disable Device to screw with things inside the inn is a great idea.
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I believe u can ready the action b4 the the surprise round if u consider the entire burning of the inn as the start of the encounter. Which would mean that the readied action occurred on his last turn and the characters are using there turn to use all actions they can to get out of the building.
Also advice on said encounter is make it look like the Fighter is in charge because its just human nature, especially amongst players, to go after the dip in charge.
Also for the fighter i would make the bastard a master triper to make sure the rogue escapes since the party will be on there back most of the time. This will force the party to decide to use there move action to get up and use there standard action to either attack the fighter or use another move action to close the distance on the rogue of course provoking the fighter to attack. On 1 hand they have to deal with a high dmg 1 shot a round character at range or deal with the full round trip fighter who gets to attack them when they go down and get back up and when they decide to leave his threaten area.
Also only give the rogue about 10 arrows or some thing to give it a valid reason to run away after he taunts them if the party never gets away from the fighter.
From experience I know that sneak attacking rogues with a variety of potions and other tricks can be very nasty. Putting the building on fire, possibly with a nasty trap at the bottom of the stairs, and then sneak attacking them as the run out the door, can be very nasty and memorable. Make sure the rogue has a means of escape.
The problem with this encounter is magic. The party will have action economy on their side and probably a full divine and arcane caster. That really turns the table of rogue and fighter bad guy encounter.
At level 12 have the rogue with good CHR stat and maxed out Use Magic Device as well take a feat or two to boost that. This will cover casters causing the rogue problems. Give the rogue a good selection of scrolls.
Why scroll of invisibility, and not a scroll? (Edit: I get it now: Scroll of Greater Invis; that doesn't come in a potion.) Potion seems more logical, and also works in Darkness (we encountered a lone Tiefling rogue recently that was really nasty).
The idea behind an encounter like this is that the rogue has the element of surprise and is well prepared. The rogue will use that to do as much damage as possible, and maybe test the party's abilities, while constantly retreating back into cover/stealth/invisibility/darkness. Eventually, the party will figure out how to handle the rogue, and that's the moment for the rogue to disappear.
Write down which spells and abilities the party uses in this encounter, and the next encounter, the rogue will have specific items to counter those.
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That tact id use on the 2nd encounter with the rogue. The thing is that the party should know of this rogues exsistance at the end of the encounter and should know who screwed there pouch. That way they have some1 to hate and go after and the rogue can taunt them later how ever the rogue sees fit. To keep a party on there toes and paranoid that behind every shadow there can be the rogue waiting in the bush ready to snipe is smexy.
Also Detect magic would be able to spot an invisible target since the target would radiate a presence of magic. The fighter in the party im currently DMing for has goggles with a perma detect magic on them so they can find what ever is magic and take / break it.
I agree with another poster that using several lower-level minions would be better than having one fighter as a partner. The party will focus their tactics on what they see and their action economy will likely wear him out no matter what.
My advice is the give the party so much to handle that they become divided and then dispatch them.
First, set the Inn on fire while they sleep. That's great but also make it so they are torn about saving their own lives or the people who are still sleeping.
Second, minions wait outside and I mean right outside ready to swarm every party member so spellcasters do not have the safety of being left alone.
The rogue uses a scroll of greater invisibility and poison plus bleeding attack and anything else you can think of and he goes after the ones that can likely do something about him, namely the major spellcasters. take them out with a full-attack sneak barrage ASAP and it would probably be best to focus on the healer until he is out of the picture. When the healer is down, move onto the arcane spellcaster. Hide while invisible and make full attacks whenever possible. Don't give the party any details other than they just took a ton of damage.
You could make him a two-weapon fighting rogue. A two-weapon rogue with greater invisibility is a monster.
So, the party wakes up in a burning building, might not even have time to don armor or prepare spells (especially if you wear them out the previous day), they are divided upon saving their own lives and the people in the inn and are immediately set upon by minions who seek to harass each party member while something they cannot perceive is doing horrendous damage to their spellcasters. Very exciting.
This has great potential to kill a lower-level party or really frustrate them if they don't figure out something fast. Have a contingency plan for the rogue's escape cause once they figure out what is stabbing the crap out of them, they will focus everything on him. Keep them divided and vulnerable.
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If you don't mind NOT making a rogue, a level 12 ninja could use Vanishing Trick for greater invisibility as a swift action, and then throw sneak attack shurikens, doing Strength damage with each successful hit.
It would be a bit of a nova, but with Extra Ki, you would be able to do multiple flurries before the enemy is finally brought down.
Could not a party of 12th level characters attempt to put out the fire with magic without having to go outside? That would throw a wrench in the works for the bad guys. You could say that the structure is weak and about to collapse but the players may cry foul that they didn't wake up earlier before the building took that much damage from the fire. Just be prepared is all I'm saying.
I also second the notion of having a group of rogues. Give them teamwork feats such as Outflank and Precise Strike. I'm not quite sure of their motives for killing and impersonating an innkeeper then running said inn waiting for heroes to show up who they then attempt to burn up (along with their stuff) while laying an ambush for said heroes, but I'm sure there's some reason for it. *grin* Have fun!
The fact that they could counter the fire is a good point, so maybe have a contingency, but if there actions can circumvent the ambush, let it happen and deal with it from their.
Maybe along with the rogue and fighter, you have a "sleeper agent" who is another rogue disguised as an innocent, so if they save him from the fire, he's likely in the back of the party for harassment when needed (and maybe to buy time for the big boss to escape). Let them detect him being sketchy if they make a sense motive, but they likely won't do that after waking him up to save him. And if they don't save him, or try to alert the other people in the inn, let them have two invisible rogues to handle, but maybe don't let them know there are two, so they kill the invisible guy (maybe), and think they're fine, then BAM another bleeding SA from nowhere :)
I have a couple recommendations. First, make the rogue a ninja. At 12th level a ninja will have alot more tricks in its tool belt. Greater invis as a swift action being a big one, but not the only one. Those kip powers will make the encounter alot more intersting.
Second, turn this into 2 encounters. Have 12 CR worth of minion rogues Attack the party WHILE the building is on fire. They are fantatics and ultimately going to sacrifice themselves in the fires, but it will prevent the party from just putting out the fire, AND it will drain resources. Then the party gets outside and gets ambushed by a more difficult encounter with the big bad and his stronger minions. I promise you, your players will remember this one.
Even if you don't want to go straight ninja you can still take vanishing trick and the greater version. You would first have to take the feat for Ki.
A few days ago one of my GM's through a Antipaladin/Ninja at us! Holy crap that was a nightmare. He used smite on a bunch of good pc's and went invisible on us all the time. It was pretty awesome!
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I just noticed that you're making a level 12 enemy to fight a level 12 party. This will get your rogue curbstomped, because a level 12 enemy is a CR 11 encounter (and a rogue is a pretty weak CR 11 as well). What I would do is instead throw TWO level 12 rogue/ninja enemies at your party. This is equivalent to a CR 13 encounter, which is rated as 'challenging' for an APL 12 party. Combine it with the fire hazard (ad hoc CR+1, especially if the enemy has prepared for it with items to avoid smoke inhalation) and you have a CR 14, which is rated as 'hard'. Suitably memorable, in my opinion, as opposed to the "we fought a thing and killed it" routine.
Invisibility and the like will just tick the party off and feel cheesy.
Lower level minions to go squish, and then maybe some traps, his escape route could be covered by minions and traps.
All thats really necessary here is to present the villain and have him able to escape.
Invisible ninjas even SOUNDS cheesy when you say it out loud.
It would be good to know the party makeup. Offhand, I'd expect something like this from a bunch of typical PCs as soon as they're awake and have minimal gear ready:
Round 1: Wizard Dim Doors outside with all other characters within reach (up to 4 of them at 12th level)
Someone with fire resistance gathers equipment they might need.
Anyone else jumps out of a window. 2d6 falling damage less Acrobatics rolls is less than they'd take in the building
Round 2: Rogue/Ranger/etc with Perception has a look around
Cleric buffs, channels to cure any significant damage or casts True Seeing if he can
Flying PCs or familiars take off for a better view
Wizard buffs
Fighter attacks any immediate threat
and everyone starts to regroup
So with that done, your rogue will be in the wrong place with no clear idea of what's going on, and the PCs will be safe and buffed (albeit unarmoured). As a minimum, you need to deal with these obvious responses. Your plan will fail for any party beyond about 6th level.
Add mooks. Always add mooks. If nothing else, the PCs will concentrate on attacking them, leaving the rogue-they-think-is-a-friend to stab them in the back.
And if possible, you want the party to be low on spells when they go to bed; they'll need at least two encounters the day before.