Actually it's not. Go and read the 3.5 DMG and give me the page number that says APL.What is this APL? It's EL (Encounter Level) and then you have ECL (Effective Character Level).APL is the appropriate term, and Ashiel used it in the correct context.
My apologies, I didn't realize that you weren't comfortable with using a new, analogous term for an older edition.
As to this quoted bit, have you ever used house rules in any of the various mechanics?
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Actually it's not. Go and read the 3.5 DMG and give me the page number that says APL.What is this APL? It's EL (Encounter Level) and then you have ECL (Effective Character Level).APL is the appropriate term, and Ashiel used it in the correct context.My apologies, I didn't realize that you weren't comfortable with using a new, analogous term for an older edition.
As to this quoted bit, have you ever used house rules in any of the various mechanics?
We were discussing the 3.5 XP rules about being a level behind the party. We weren't talking about the Pathfinder XP rules at all, well at least I wasn't.
I try not to houserule as much as possible. I am working on houseruling the magic item creation system at the moment.
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Here is the deal with why the crafting rules (and other rules) are problematic.
On the one hand you want the game to have room to grow. People are going to want custom items, custom spells, custom everything. People want to customize and Paizo and WoTC are a business. You give the customer what they want.
On the other hand, if the ability to properly balance items and spells were easily translated to a spreadsheet, good developers would be a dime a dozen.
It isn't, and they aren't.
So they break things into two parts: Rules and Guidelines.
Rules are things the Devs believe generally work as is.
Guidelines are...well...guidelines so you can try and build it like a real Dev.
Only as paint by numbers will attest (not to mention RPG superstar entries...), there is a wide difference between professionals and amateurs.
The rules are if you take the magic creation feat, if you have the campaign time you can make the items in that group for half price.
It is not you can make any item you can think of making for half price.
Your GM can approve a custom item. The Dev advised you and your GM to look at existing items for comparison when pricing. If you can't find anything close, use that as a guideline.
If you can't, go to the chart and use that as a guideline.
The perfect item creation system is as elusive as the perfect spell creation system. Good development is as much art as science and even if you come up with good guidelines there is a portion of the audience who feel it is a great hobby within the hobby to try and break the system with loopholes and exploits.
The people who make it so we can't have nice things.
So, again, I point out there are rules and there are guidelines. The rules are basically ok. These are the items you can make, for this price following, as Ross described it, this recipe.
And the guidelines are guidelines. Meaning you don't get something just because you followed the guidelines.
Here is the deal with why the crafting rules (and other rules) are problematic.
One the one hand you want the game to have room to grow. People are going to want custom items, custom spells, custom everything. People want to customize and Paizo and WoTC are a business. You give the customer what they want.
On the other hand, if the ability to properly balance items and spells were easily translated to a spreadsheet, good developers would be a dime a dozen.
It isn't, and they aren't.
So they break things into two parts: Rules and Guidelines.
Rules are things the Devs believe generally work as is.
Guidelines are...well...guidelines so you can try and build it like a real Dev.
Only as paint by numbers will attest (not to mention RPG superstar entries...), there is a wide difference between professionals and amateurs.
The rules are if you take the magic creation feat, if you have the campaign time you can make the items in that group for half price.
It is not you can make any item you can think of making for half price.
Your GM can approve a custom item. The Dev advised you and your GM to look at existing items for comparison when pricing. If you can't find anything close, use that as a guideline.
If you can't, go to the chart and use that as a guideline.
The perfect item creation system is as elusive as the perfect spell creation system. Good development is as much art as science and even if you come up with good guidelines there is a portion of the audience who feel it is a great hobby within the hobby to try and break the system with loopholes and exploits.
The people who make it so we can't have nice things.
So, again, I point out there are rules and there are guidelines. The rules are basically ok. These are the items you can make, for this price following, as Ross described it, this recipe.
And the guidelines are guidelines. Meaning you don't get something just because you followed the guidelines.
One must operate within the guidelines. "Guidelines" does not mean ignore the rules that are printed :P
The printed material gives you the bounds in which you can work to price your items:
1. Compare it to items that are already printed, and base its price within that range.
2. Use the formula price.
I am currently involved in this discussion elsewhere, and have been doing some comparisons of Listed Price v Formula Price. In nearly every single case, List Prices are massively discounted from the Formula, or the items conform to the Formula, and this is not at all tied to effective power or item level. So far the only case that increases the price without any sense are Pipes of Sounding (0th level effect). I'm sure there will be more, but after nearly 30 comparisons of Wondrous Items, its clear that the Devs mean for the Formula Price to be as expensive as it should ever be; if you go the 'compare' route, you should probably discount.
If you are not using the ICR within the explicit bounds of the Guidelines, then you are choosing to House Rule/Homebrew. A Guideline is a soft border, not an invitation to go anywhere you please. I guess just to say it: its not 'by the rules' to take one line, interpret it liberally, and conclude that it means there aren't rules which govern those mechanics.
You can always toss out the Guidelines, but that's not Pathfinder, that's your personal version of pathfinder. And that has no place in a public forum discussion of the rules.
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The beautiful thing about being a DM. (Which I'm not when I'm Judging PFS) Is that you can ignore SKR, or anyone else's rulings if it doesn't fit the way you wish to run your world.This thread is a discussion about all aspects of the magic item creation rules so feel free to add what ever you feel is relevant.
The mods have already spoken people. If you feel its off topic then report it. Dont report it just because you disagree with something.
Thanks.
So as I said "Guidelines"
To LazarX - While I agree with you in principle, the take 10 rules are otherwise. I don't like it either, but I lost in another thread and based on SKR's ruling there, I doubt he would disagree.
Although I hope he does in the upcoming item book :)
I agree 100%. I think take 10 has become completely abused by some people and I think it is silly to have take 10 apply to crafting.
But just wanted to give you a heads up.
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Actually it doesn't. It gives you guidelines if you want to expand beyond the rules.
Hrm, I just reread the entire section. No where does it say "expand beyond the rules." That is your House Rule. Which is fine, but presenting it as fact is not. The Devs put in the Golden Rule, which says that the entire game system is a guideline. That does not mean in a public forum, that you get to assert your houserules on, say, Base Attack Bonus, or Bonus Spell Slots as canon.
Here are the relevant texts that define the "Guidelines:"
Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.
Notice that it says compare a new item to an item that is already priced. Well, those items are deeply discounted or follow the Formula Price almost without exception.
Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values generates the Formula Price.
And so your guideline options are to either compare and discount, or go with formula.
If you make up your own method of pricing, or just make up numbers by instinct, then you're not following the rules. Which is fine because the Golden Rule already sets the precedent. But your Home Brew price for a Helm of Magical Flirting (made up) is irrelevant in a public forum, one that is criticizing the printed rules.
Listen, the entire Game System of Pathfinder is based on a set of Permissive Mechanics. Meaning that you can't take any ability within any book unless you already possess an ability which grants you permission to do so. We argue over whether something is giving you permission for X result, or X+1 result for endless pages. People get seriously upset over that minute difference. But all of a sudden, there is a game mechanic which gives us a flexible set of choices, and those same people arguing that "Its Specifically X! It Can't Be X+1!" Are suddenly taking the complete opposite stance in regards to the ICR.
This is a lack of consistency on the part of those individuals, not on the rules. The ICR is still a Permissive Mechanic, it just lets you choose between the two specifically listed options.
Or you can Homebrew your prices. That's fine, but you have no standing by which to push your personal opinion as fact.
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Actually it doesn't. It gives you guidelines if you want to expand beyond the rules.Hrm, I just reread the entire section. No where does it say "expand beyond the rules." That is your House Rule. Which is fine, but presenting it as fact is not. The Devs put in the Golden Rule, which says that the entire game system is a guideline. That does not mean in a public forum, that you get to assert your houserules on, say, Base Attack Bonus, or Bonus Spell Slots as canon.
Here are the relevant texts that define the "Guidelines:"
Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.Notice that it says compare a new item to an item that is already priced. Well, those items are deeply discounted or follow the Formula Price almost without exception.
Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values generates the Formula Price.
And so your guideline options are to either compare and discount, or go with formula.
If you make up your own method of pricing, or just make up numbers by instinct, then you're not following the rules. Which is fine because the Golden Rule already sets the precedent. But your Home Brew price for a Helm of Magical Flirting (made up) is irrelevant in a public forum, one that is criticizing the printed rules.
Listen, the entire Game System of Pathfinder is based on a set of Permissive Mechanics. Meaning that you can't take any ability within any book unless you already possess an ability which grants you permission to do so. We argue over whether something is giving you permission for X result, or X+1 result for endless pages. People get seriously upset over that minute difference. But all of a sudden, there is a game mechanic which gives us a flexible set of choices, and those same people...
Read the links I put on the last page.
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I search for the term "Magic Item Rules". No luck. I even searched the text for the word "Rule." No luck again.
I did not find it.
I did however find this:
"Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values."
And then I posted it here and bolded it for emphasis.
If the formula is written in a book, you can make it for that cost with the prerequisties, by rule.
Anything else, is a guideline.
You linked to the section on Magic Item Creation. Everything printed is a Rule. There is no reason to assume otherwise.
You also Bolded the word "Guidelines," but failed to put it into the full context of the sentence. A 7th grade English course teaches us how to properly cite. You did not properly cite.
Without stopping, the words directly proceeding it are "summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values."
The Full sentence reads: "Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values."
It defines the guidelines. This game uses Permissive Mechanics. You have some leverage of choice within those two permissions. Those are the official rules.
House Rule if you'd like, but you've made no point with your Link, and leaning on a single word out of context holds no weight in a discussion of what the rules say.
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...So what exactly is the point of this thread?
"Current Magic Item Creation rules: Just too easy for such a large gain."
Crafting is easy. RAW supports this assumption. Dev's have confirmed this was intended to be easy. Everyone agrees that it's easy to do. The only difference is some people are happy with how it is and others think its broken.
Crafting nets you a gain but claiming it large or small is subjective.
Yes, crafting means you get to exceed the normal WBL. That's because taking a crafting feat means you're not taking some other feat and not getting the benefit of that feat. Instead of Brew Potion, the wizard could take Spell Focus and be more dangerous in combat. Instead of taking Craft Wondrous Item, he could take Combat Casting and be less likely to get disrupted in combat. Every feat has an advantage; some are combat advantages, some are versatility advantages. The crafting feats add to your versatility and long-term survival at the cost of not granting you whatever bonus you could have gotten by taking any other feat.There's not really anything else to discuss on this and is a statement of fact more than a discussion. The entire thread has been examples of how it's easy and the only discussion has been the subjectivity on the magnitude of gain.
This has been an ongoing topic for the last 3, soon to be 4, years with the same players saying the same thing in too many of the exact same thread. There's soon to be a new magic item crafting compendium to help define the rules better, but it's already been stated that these rules will merely be elaboration and not changes. The developers do not want to invalidate anything in the CRB rule set for crafting magic items and are happy with the system they've devised.
Don't like the current rules and want them to change? Then don't use them in your home game and create a home brew. There's enough of the community that do like the rules,
THEN FLAG IT AND MOVE ON!
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I search for the term "Magic Item Rules". No luck. I even searched the text for the word "Rule." No luck again.
I did not find it.
I did however find this:
"Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values."
And then I posted it here and bolded it for emphasis.
If the formula is written in a book, you can make it for that cost with the prerequisties, by rule.
Anything else, is a guideline.
You linked to the section on Magic Item Creation. Everything printed is a Rule. There is no reason to assume otherwise.
You also Bolded the word "Guidelines," but failed to put it into the full context of the sentence. A 7th grade English course teaches us how to properly cite. You did not properly cite.
Without stopping, the words directly proceeding it are "summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values."
The Full sentence reads: "Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values."
It defines the guidelines. This game uses Permissive Mechanics. You have some leverage of choice within those two permissions. Those are the official rules.
House Rule if you'd like, but you've made no point with your Link, and leaning on a single word out of context holds no weight in a discussion of what the rules say.
Wrong post. The one with lots of links to the Dev comments.
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I search for the term "Magic Item Rules". No luck. I even searched the text for the word "Rule." No luck again.
I did not find it.
I did however find this:
"Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values."
And then I posted it here and bolded it for emphasis.
If the formula is written in a book, you can make it for that cost with the prerequisties, by rule.
Anything else, is a guideline.
You linked to the section on Magic Item Creation. Everything printed is a Rule. There is no reason to assume otherwise.
You also Bolded the word "Guidelines," but failed to put it into the full context of the sentence. A 7th grade English course teaches us how to properly cite. You did not properly cite.
Without stopping, the words directly proceeding it are "summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values."
The Full sentence reads: "Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values."
It defines the guidelines. This game uses Permissive Mechanics. You have some leverage of choice within those two permissions. Those are the official rules.
House Rule if you'd like, but you've made no point with your Link, and leaning on a single word out of context holds no weight in a discussion of what the rules say.
Magic Item Gold Piece Values
Many factors must be considered when determining the priceof new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price
is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced,
using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines
summarized on Table 15–29.
Table 15–29: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values
Just so we are clear, "estimation" does not mean exact. Rules have an exact goal while guidelines do not. Guidelines are there to steer you in the right direction and nothing more.
There chart does not mean that X will cost this or Y will always cost that.
Just so we are clear, "estimation" does not mean exact. Rules have an exact goal while guidelines do not. Guidelines are there to steer you in the right direction and nothing more.
There chart does not mean that X will cost this or Y will always cost that.
To address your over all point: Yes, but within those bounds set by the guidelines.
To your bolded bits. "Estimating" is part of the Proper Name. The exact rules which defines "Estimating" is found in the chart just below it.
Its interesting to me that some are willing to pull specific words out of a Title or Ability Name, and on that one word alone, deciding how that rule works. Expeditious Retreat. It says Retreat. Therefore, you can only use it to Retreat.. expeditiously. One must read the ability to understand what it does. Names are often Misnomers.
The way that this game works is like this:
1) It gives Name to a Permissive Game Mechanic.
2) Immediately under that Name, are the specific permissions it grants.
3) Explicit Clauses are added which Exclude specific situations from occurring. See Empower Spell and Maximize Spell for the quintessential example of how this Entire game Operates.
4) Permissions from one ability always allow 'mingling' with other abilities so long as the interaction falls within the permission. Explicit interaction permissions are not required to assume that two abilities work together.
You want to Apply the Golden Rule to ICR, that's fine, but then you're house ruling. You also want to treat your house rules as The Rules. They're not.
The "Guidelines" are clearly defined as Option 1) Compare to other magical items and price within that range. Note that Listed Prices are almost always massively discounted from Formula Price. Option 2) Use the Formula Price.
Those are the only two choices one can make within the guidelines set, without then abandoning the rules in favor of his own house rules. Which is fine, but your house rules are not Pathfinder. And they hold no weight in a discussion about "how terrible the Item Creation Rules" actually are.
Newsflash. This just in. A scroll of CL 1 magic missile is 25 gp, takes 1 day to craft, and 12.5 gp. A cloak of resistance +5 is 25,000 gp, takes 25 days to craft, and 12,500 gp. An elixir of hiding is 250 gp, takes 1 day to craft, and 125 gp. I'm not sure what the point of linking me to part of the book that said creating new magic items wasn't always a direct process, but it has little to nothing to do with the benefits or simplicity of creating magic items.And water is wet.
Those are things that have specific listed costs and pre-requisites in the book.
If it ain't in the book, it's a guideline.
If the book lists a price it is the price.
How do you determine prices of items not in the book?And you start by looking at other items for pricing rather try to find a cheaper way to do it using the guidelines.
Because they are guidelines, not rules.
Too bad the devs haven't weighed in on this...
Lul, sorry bud, didn't realize that we were on the same page. However, A guideline is definitive, as I've been arguing, it tells you exactly what your choices are, and you select within bounds of those "guide"line choices. I'm not sure if you're suggesting otherwise.
Again, my apologies.
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Lul, sorry bud, didn't realize that we were on the same page. However, A guideline is definitive, as I've been arguing, it tells you exactly what your choices are, and you select within bounds of those "guide"line choices. I'm not sure if you're suggesting otherwise.Again, my apologies.
No worries, but again, there are "Rules" that a GM would have to houserule to overcome and there are guidelines that are only included at GM discretion.
You can't make custom items without GM approval and consent. Similarly if a GM says "You can't make this item in the book" the GM is house ruling.
You may have the guidelines become rules in your game, but that doesn't make them rules. That makes that a house rule for your game.
It is a constant source of amazement to me how totally irrelevant actual real world activity is to most people's opinions.
Thread after thread after thread is posted on these boards pointing out how the magic item system is an absolute joke. It is perhaps the single most common argument on these boards. Hundreds of players on these boards have weighed in with example after example of how the exiting magic items, the wealth allowed by using magic items, the disparity of balance between magic item crafters and non crafters, the creation of ridiculous items based on abusing the "guidelines" and the fundamental issue of how magic items overshadow actual character abilities and powers.
And yet people still argue that the magic item rules are fine.
Yeah, the single most argued, debated and scoffed at section of the rules, which generates more in game and out of game arguments than any other section of the rules is "fine."
By what real-world metric would we accept that ANYTHING needs revision if this isn't enough to convince the community that magic items are broken? In virtually every other field of endeavor I have ever been involved in, there would be near universal recognition that the single most common complaint issued about a product would indicate that complaint should be addressed.
But not Pathfinder.
Oh well.
It doesn't need to be addressed. It is a variant rule. Like piecemeal armor or words of power.
The "variant rule" is only one small part of the overall magic item system being broken ciretose. If you totally took away the ability to make custom magic items and magic item crafters were restricted to only making existing items, most of the complaints I listed would still be valid.
Magic items are totally, irreconcilably, irretrievably broken.
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The book provides you with guidelines that you can use to create items outside of what is listed in the book. It's for DM's who wish to allow custom items and the guidelines they provide enable you to create a custom item and the rough cost of it. The guidelines are not open to player's without a DM's say so. You can't walk into a game with a custom magic item without a DM's okay.
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You're all confused with your interpretation of what's a guideline. There is four references to the term guideline in the item creation rules. They all refer to the table for pricing magic items and not to the rules used to create them. There is an entire set of rules on how to make things that happens prior to pricing.
I will direct you to the links I posted from the devs and to the fact that the four references to the term "guideline" are four more than the word "rule" appearing.
I believe magic items have become such a common thing that the process for creating them has gotten just too easy. I remember when creating items was something the DM came up with because there were no rules but all that has changed. Now we are at a point where its not so much the class but the items we use to build it and the easy access of items is a reflection of this.
I believe the item creation rules are just too easy for the amount that you gain. For example: thw moment you take Craft Wondrous Items you know how to craft each and evey wonderous item there is. When a new book comes out that has wonderous items in it, you technically know how to create it automatically, all with just a single feat investment.
Personally I would like to see a heavier feat investment, followed by a heavier skill investment. I feel like the current rules make items feel like a mass produced retail item than a weapon or trinket of legend.
Yep, I totally agree. By taking away any xp cost, pathfinder has totally opened the flood-gates. To such an extent that crafting wizards are an actual common build. Take some feats, insert some coin and satisfy the pre-reqs and you can make the items you want. Mass produce them if you can afford it, why not, sell them on for more money, fill all your slots and just totally customise your magic item loadout without the pesky problem of collecting actual lost treasures hidden away in dangerous locales. Don't forget, a base of operations and a crafting lab/study are not even needed anymore, you can craft on the road!
Pathfinder was desperate to please, so it took away the xp cost and made magic crafting easier. This made many people very happy, but you shallowsoul, you get that it has gone too far and it is just too damn easy to craft whatever a player wants now.
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The biggest revisit Paizo will probably do in the next iteration is how to better address the things they removed XP penalty from.
But no one is perfect, and it is a hell of a hard problem to find a solution to.
Failure chance by removing taking 10 is my suggestion.
When a new book comes out that has wonderous items in it, you technically know how to create it automatically, all with just a single feat investment.For my own personal opinion: Craft Wondrous Item doesn't grant you the knowledge to make every item automatically. That would be silly. Think of it more like being a chef. A spellcaster with Craft Wondrous Item knows his way around a kitchen, but just like a chef, he doesn't know every recipe there is in the world. But chef know how to cook without recipes (there's enough culinary reality shows around to prove that.) If they suddenly need to make a stir-fry, despite never having working in an asian restaurant before, a good chef will be able to make a reasonable facsimile.
In the same way, Fighter McGee walks into Mage McWizardton's item shop and says "I'm tired of monsters grabbing me and pinning me down where I can't even swing a sword. Is there anything you have that will, I don't know, light them on fire or fill them with spikes or something?". McWizardton has never made a shirt of immolation before: maybe he normally works more on bags of holding and elixers of love. Heck, maybe no one on that world had ever made one before. But he's still a wizard and he knows the flame shield spell, so he comes up with something. And the end result is a shirt of immolation.
The pc with feat knowz all the wondrous items is something I've brought up before, when a player gets the feat and wants to fill all those slots. There is the idea you only need the feat and don't need to spend time investigating, questioning or experimenting. Got that feat, go go go. We all know you want to get the expected typical items as high as you can go, and then look into what else you can make. Course, has your character ever actually seen all the items you want? I wonder.
A stir fry is not a powerful magic item in golarion, facsimile and near enough being good enough because the crafter is like a chef sounds pretty thin to me.
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Ciretose, I think being able to craft items is a needed part of the system too.
However, it is my opinion, and that opinion is supported by hundreds, perhaps thousands of threads on this and other RPG boards which identify exactly the problems I am talking about, that the current magic item system is broken from concept to implementation.
The whole system should be revisited with the following goals in mind:
1. Make the crafting of magic items reasonably doable in game time. There is no reason whatsoever that it should take months of full time daily crafting to make a magic item.
2. Magic items should be items which provide flavor and specific abilities to help develop unique and interesting character concepts. Baking magic item bonuses into the challenge system is the fundamental reason for the "Christmas Tree effect" and is why virtually every build of any concept has almost exactly the same magic items hanging off of it.
3. Work magic item crafting in some rational manner into the overall Pathfinder economic system. Of course this will be less of a problem if the rules end up not requiring every barbarian to have a +5 courageous furious sword.
4. Provide an actual algorithm based custom magic item creating system that allows the creation of unique and interesting magic items without requiring the GM to try to figure out complex pricing "guidelines" which are nothing but an open invitation to argument from the player.
5. Make magic item crafting a skill, not a feat.
6. Magic item creation should provide an in game benefit for the PC which invests in it, but that benefit should not be such that the PC can wildly violate wealth by level guidelines.
7. Magic item crafters should not be able to create magic items with magical abilities the crafter themselves does not possess.
I could come up with more, but those are some biggies.
Careful everyone. It's this kind of talk that got us 4E in the first place.
Also, taking Craft feats is roughly equivalent to a +1 bonus across the board due to the price scaling. This has already been shown in several threads. Crafting is hardly "a joke."
The biggest revisit Paizo will probably do in the next iteration is how to better address the things they removed XP penalty from.
But no one is perfect, and it is a hell of a hard problem to find a solution to.
Failure chance by removing taking 10 is my suggestion.
Jettison it, get rid of crafting wondrous builds, pair magic weapons and armour to smiths of legendary skill and not to wizards. Perhaps with all magic items requiring suitable monster components corresponding to the item.
One item at a time, it is a major investment and more involves npcs, potions are easier and cheaper, scrolls unchanged.
Done.
:P
Careful everyone. It's this kind of talk that got us 4E in the first place.
Also, taking Craft feats is roughly equivalent to a +1 bonus across the board due to the price scaling. This has already been shown in several threads. Crafting is hardly "a joke."
This has been asserted in various threads, and has been challenged and disputed in all of them.
Just because you believe something does not make it so RD.
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I am in agreement that revising the magic item crafting system would be a worthy goal.
But it ain't happening until the next version.
On the upside, I think it can be done without interfering with backward compatibility in any real way, so add this to the pile of "New fully compatible version of the rules please" arguments I've been making.
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There are thousands of threads out there that prove that I am right.
And you all are wrong.
You can all go home now, I won the Internet.
LOL, I want to see your trophy.
Now, to respond to the snark though, In this case a thousand threads does, in fact, prove that I am right if I am asserting that there are a thousand threads on the subject.
The question is does that massive level of complaint truly indicate a problem or not?
Some here assert that massive customer complaints about a product do not indicate a problem. That is the issue that I find virtually impossible to wrap my brain around.
"I like it, so it must be fine, pay no attention to that huge line at the customer complaint desk!"