Ciretose why are you so riled up over guideline versus rule?
I think everyone understands that the pricing chart is a guideline.
Ashiel has good points regardless of one misused word.
No. that's not an answer. I want you to show me HOW a 5th level character can pull off making a Wish granting item. A complete answer involving skills, spells, equipment, and cost.
Feat: Craft Arms and Armor
Luck BladeICL 17
Crafting Cost 43,835 gp
(not-really-pre)prequisites: Miracle or Wish
Spellcraft Check = 5 + 17(CL) + 5(missing prereq) = 27
Spellcraft Skill = 3(class skill) + 5(ability mod) + 2(trait) +5(rank) +2(aid) = 17
Take 10 on the roll.
A caster who was part of a 4 man party who nearly TPWed could do this with the party resources at 5th level. He also gets a shiny reroll-providing short sword as a bonus.
Of course, the same guy could craft ten Candles of Invocation and summon ten Balor demons, which might be a little more fun in the long run.
Newsflash. This just in. A scroll of CL 1 magic missile is 25 gp, takes 1 day to craft, and 12.5 gp. A cloak of resistance +5 is 25,000 gp, takes 25 days to craft, and 12,500 gp. An elixir of hiding is 250 gp, takes 1 day to craft, and 125 gp. I'm not sure what the point of linking me to part of the book that said creating new magic items wasn't always a direct process, but it has little to nothing to do with the benefits or simplicity of creating magic items.And water is wet.
Those are things that have specific listed costs and pre-requisites in the book.
If it ain't in the book, it's a guideline.
If the book lists a price it is the price.
How do you determine prices of items not in the book?And you start by looking at other items for pricing rather try to find a cheaper way to do it using the guidelines.
Because they are guidelines, not rules.
Too bad the devs haven't weighed in on this...
What are you talking about? This thread is about crafting existing items, not designing new ones.
I will second that Atarlost... These forums seem unwieldy or at the very least unfriendly toward corrections and quotes.
Very true. Fortunately I found a way around it, because I'm a dirty powergamer. *tongue in cheek*
No. that's not an answer. I want you to show me HOW a 5th level character can pull off making a Wish granting item. A complete answer involving skills, spells, equipment, and cost.
Well first you need thirteen pounds of quartz crystals, which are to be ground into a fine dust that is then mixed with ground sapphires. From that, you will need to arrange it in the pattern of the Constellation of Thorae, while focusing light rays into the circuit to prime it. This process will need a minimum of 30 days of process while being carefully controlled and monitored, shifting the prisms appropriately over time to achieve the delicate balance necessary to alter reality in such a way, and then it will only be enough to activate it once before it fries itself in the process. To create one that won't blow up on us
Or, sport a +17 or better Spellcraft check with whatever means you can muster (skill ranks, class skill, masterwork tools, aid another, etc) and have X gp worth of materials fluffed as desired or risk the project going awry.
Shall I explain the exact process of creating Black Lotus Extract to have to use the Craft: Alchemy skill? Don't be silly!
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And of course where does a low level character get the time? Oh yeah. From the GM. Crafting a wish item takes a ton of downtime that a low level character can't 'game' his way around and most gms wont give a low level character that amount of downtime or starting wealth anyway...
And say they did? The whole party sinks every dime of their wealth into crafting a wish item and the gm lets the party set up comfy in town for the long haul so the mage can make it...
All that effort... for one wish? Whose results can be entirely controlled by gm fiat?
I don't know anyone that would spend the time or money on it.
I can just picture a GM wringing his hands with a cheshire grin as the culmination of all of the party's wealth and months of watching the sun crawl across the sky result in... not only a nerfed wish but a subverted one.
Be afraid if your gm DOES allow it... Thats what I say.
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Ciretose why are you so riled up over guideline versus rule?
I think everyone understands that the pricing chart is a guideline.
Ashiel has good points regardless of one misused word.
Responding is "riled up"
Ok...
I'm pointing out that the guidelines are...well... guidelines.
@Aratok - Really? shallowsoul, is that true? Do you think my posts are off topic. You are the OP, I'll defer to your judgement.
Luck blade is a +2 weapon. To create a +2 enhancement bonus on weapons, the creator must have a level that is 3 times the enhancement bonus. This is unavoidable and makes it impossible for a level 5 character to make a +2 weapon/shield/armor. It's an exclusive rule to craft magic arms and armor.No. that's not an answer. I want you to show me HOW a 5th level character can pull off making a Wish granting item. A complete answer involving skills, spells, equipment, and cost.Feat: Craft Arms and Armor
Luck Blade
ICL 17
Crafting Cost 43,835 gp
(not-really-pre)prequisites: Miracle or Wish
Spellcraft Check = 5 + 17(CL) + 5(missing prereq) = 27
Spellcraft Skill = 3(class skill) + 5(ability mod) + 2(trait) +5(rank) +2(aid) = 17
Take 10 on the roll.A caster who was part of a 4 man party who nearly TPWed could do this with the party resources at 5th level. He also gets a shiny reroll-providing short sword as a bonus.
Of course, the same guy could craft ten Candles of Invocation and summon ten Balor demons, which might be a little more fun in the long run.
No the listed Luck Blade is +2
One can create a +1 Luckblade (it would be 6 K cheaper).
If you think crafting makes party members too powerful then you dont even have to edit the opponents to a higher CR... You just pick enemies that are a higher cr.
6th level wizard just made a luckblade with a wish on it? Well thats 17th level magic right there... Bring on the pit fiends!
I am being sarcastic of course.
You could even speed up the process by allowing the party to FIND a luckblade instead of making one, and then immediately lynch them with pit fiends. That might be a little montyhaul though...
And of course where does a low level character get the time? Oh yeah. From the GM. Crafting a wish item takes a ton of downtime that a low level character can't 'game' his way around and most gms wont give a low level character that amount of downtime or starting wealth anyway...
And say they did? The whole party sinks every dime of their wealth into crafting a wish item and the gm lets the party set up comfy in town for the long haul so the mage can make it...
All that effort... for one wish? Whose results can be entirely controlled by gm fiat?
I don't know anyone that would spend the time or money on it.
You can say that again. Wish and/or Miracle have specific things you know they can do, and then anything beyond that is subject to great risk. Wish or Miracle (despite its name) is not the same as "I'm god for a day". Honestly, there are no world destroying spells in PF. Frankly the idea of making a wish machine is a novel one, but not very practical.
Really industrious things use low level spells. High level spells tend to be very specific in their use, and typically either of a traveling sort or for combat effectiveness.
You can say that again. Wish and/or Miracle have specific things you know they can do, and then anything beyond that is subject to great risk. Wish or Miracle (despite its name) is not the same as "I'm god for a day". Honestly, there are no world destroying spells in PF. Frankly the idea of making a wish machine is a novel one, but not very practical.Really industrious things use low level spells. High level spells tend to be very specific in their use, and typically either of a traveling sort or for combat effectiveness.
Agreed, back in 3.5 Wish can be used for free money (safe option), craft magic items (safe option), etc.
But they nerfed it in PF sadly.
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I also don't allow Take 10 on skill rolls involving magic.
If you think crafting makes party members too powerful then you dont even have to edit the opponents to a higher CR... You just pick enemies that are a higher cr.
6th level wizard just made a luckblade with a wish on it? Well thats 17th level magic right there... Bring on the pit fiends!
I am being sarcastic of course.
A 6th level wizard with 3 wishes? Better be damn good wishes. (^__^)
Likely you'd never use 'em, for fear of losing them. (o~o)"You'd need to slaughter about 117 orcs with standard NPC gear (260 gp / 2 for selling half price) without any expenses (no potions consumed, no spell services, no sleeping at inns, etc) to meet the cost in materials alone (let alone the fact that's like 15,795 XP). Then spend a month creating, and make a DC 27 spellcraft check. The end result would be. 1 wish spell at the minimum caster level (17) and minimum save DC (23). Just 1. Now what can we do with that?
- Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
- Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 7th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
- Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 7th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.
- Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.
- Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
- Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three wishes for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
- Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish.
- Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes: one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from gaining a permanent negative level.
- Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
- Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent's successful save, a foe's successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend's failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
So firstly, you'd need all this time and money to fall into your hands, at a low level, and you'd have to be quite optimized or have plenty of help to actually produce the thing without the risk of getting a cursed magic item (a humorous curse would be the wish always turns out badly, Bedazzled style), and for what? 1 firework.
This is the same thing as trying to say magic items are broken because 1st level fighters can be running around decked out in:
+5 full plate of heavy fortification and water breathing
+5 heavy steel shield of reflecting and acid, cold, electricity, and fire resist 10
+5 amulet of natural armor
+5 ring of protection
+6 belt of physical perfection
+5 cloak of resistance and minor displacement
+5 merciful longsword of speed
Only if you engineer it as a GM, or your player can type "CLUAConsole:CreateItem("XXXX",1)" into your face and you spit it out for them. :P
I'm actually crafting a buttload of a certain item in the hopes that I will fail it miserably and get a cursed item. There are lots of cursed items that could make combat very fun. Necklace of strangulation, poison cloak...
That chest boring beetle thing is kinda too dangerous for me but hand it to your thief and have him reverse-pickpocket something and then everyone just stand back.
The lower level you are the better your chances of failure so good to try for these things before you get too powerful. And after your enemy falls, you just take back your cursed item.
As your party's crafting wizard I would happily construct your thief's arsenal. This tactic is probably playing more to the OP's point that crafting can be used in atrociously overpowered ways... but you know... Take the good with the bad and all that.
Not like gms couldn't use this horrible tactic on you instead. In my mind players not using cursed items on their enemies would 'break versimilitude'... Cursed items arent simply a way to make a pc's life miserable... They can go the other way too.
The trick with crafting them yourself is that you have to be very very diligent about identifying what you make, and theres way more chances to fail at crafting a cursed item than there are chances of success, so be ready to waste a lot of resources. Its too bad you cant afford to make robes of the archmagi at level 3... You'd have a poison robe or cloak of immolation pretty easy with CR's like that. The high cost of a high CR item is, in an odd way, just another way the system balances things out. It makes crafting cursed items expensive and difficult as well. Funny that.
I caution against putting a bag of devouring over a persons head while they're pinned because i'm not entirely clear on if you can release the pinned condition as a free action. If not then your party grappler might be sucked in as well... More food for thought.
Can't you stack the increased DC for faster crafting multiple times to be able to get cursed items?
I'd say if you could it would have to be a houserule... Any time you're trying for a cursed item I recommend using fast crafting, but I dont think you can do it multiple times. Doing such things probably fall into the 'making crafting times too short' sort of thing that the gms allow in shallowsoul's campaigns that make him hate crafting so much.
I don't know many gms that would allow say 'I use fast crafting 3 times for a +15 dc and i can make an 8 hour item in an hour!' But it sounds like such things have happened at shallowsoul's table enough to where the crafting time argument doesnt seem to be enough to convince him its a setback.
Don't get me wrong. I may not agree with his policies but I like shallowsoul. I've often considered making a new wizard archetype called the negatator who loses all casting abilities and instead are just a gigantic walking antimagic field at all times like the Haitian from Heroes or the 'negate super abilities' mutation from heroes unlimited. This sounds like the kind of thing that would be right up his alley. Instead of changing your world so that magic items are hard to get, just make like a master summoner/negatator where he and all of his summons deactivate any magic in a certain radius of them. I don't necessarily disagree with what shallowsoul is trying to do... I disagree with the scope. Its an interesting 'gotcha' encounter and I love subverting tropes, but to make a whole world this way doesnt really ring my fun button.
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Ciretose why are you so riled up over guideline versus rule?
I think everyone understands that the pricing chart is a guideline.
Ashiel has good points regardless of one misused word.
Responding is "riled up"
Ok...
I'm pointing out that the guidelines are...well... guidelines.
@Aratok - Really? shallowsoul, is that true? Do you think my posts are off topic. You are the OP, I'll defer to your judgement.
This thread is a discussion about all aspects of the magic item creation rules so feel free to add what ever you feel is relevant.
The mods have already spoken people. If you feel its off topic then report it. Dont report it just because you disagree with something.
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This thread is a discussion about all aspects of the magic item creation rules so feel free to add what ever you feel is relevant.
The mods have already spoken people. If you feel its off topic then report it. Dont report it just because you disagree with something.
Thanks.
So as I said "Guidelines"
To LazarX - While I agree with you in principle, the take 10 rules are otherwise. I don't like it either, but I lost in another thread and based on SKR's ruling there, I doubt he would disagree.
Although I hope he does in the upcoming item book :)
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You can say that again. Wish and/or Miracle have specific things you know they can do, and then anything beyond that is subject to great risk. Wish or Miracle (despite its name) is not the same as "I'm god for a day". Honestly, there are no world destroying spells in PF. Frankly the idea of making a wish machine is a novel one, but not very practical.Really industrious things use low level spells. High level spells tend to be very specific in their use, and typically either of a traveling sort or for combat effectiveness.
Agreed, back in 3.5 Wish can be used for free money (safe option), craft magic items (safe option), etc.
But they nerfed it in PF sadly.
Wisely I would say.
Wisely I would say.
You can say that again. Wish and/or Miracle have specific things you know they can do, and then anything beyond that is subject to great risk. Wish or Miracle (despite its name) is not the same as "I'm god for a day". Honestly, there are no world destroying spells in PF. Frankly the idea of making a wish machine is a novel one, but not very practical.Really industrious things use low level spells. High level spells tend to be very specific in their use, and typically either of a traveling sort or for combat effectiveness.
Agreed, back in 3.5 Wish can be used for free money (safe option), craft magic items (safe option), etc.
But they nerfed it in PF sadly.
I'll agree with that. Wish was one of the few issues that was serious enough to sit down with my whole group and decide what to do about it and the game. It also was something we all agreed would not be used in certain ways, effectively house-ruling away the ability to wish for magic items and such.
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I always went by the shortest available route option. If a player wishes for money or magic, that generally means it's taken from someone else. Someone who's rather angry and is going to make some magical investigation of his own.
You can say that again. Wish and/or Miracle have specific things you know they can do, and then anything beyond that is subject to great risk. Wish or Miracle (despite its name) is not the same as "I'm god for a day". Honestly, there are no world destroying spells in PF. Frankly the idea of making a wish machine is a novel one, but not very practical.Really industrious things use low level spells. High level spells tend to be very specific in their use, and typically either of a traveling sort or for combat effectiveness.
Agreed, back in 3.5 Wish can be used for free money (safe option), craft magic items (safe option), etc.
But they nerfed it in PF sadly.
You screw with safe wishes? That is cold and mean.
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You screw with safe wishes? That is cold and mean.I always went by the shortest available route option. If a player wishes for money or magic, that generally means it's taken from someone else. Someone who's rather angry and is going to make some magical investigation of his own.
You can say that again. Wish and/or Miracle have specific things you know they can do, and then anything beyond that is subject to great risk. Wish or Miracle (despite its name) is not the same as "I'm god for a day". Honestly, there are no world destroying spells in PF. Frankly the idea of making a wish machine is a novel one, but not very practical.Really industrious things use low level spells. High level spells tend to be very specific in their use, and typically either of a traveling sort or for combat effectiveness.
Agreed, back in 3.5 Wish can be used for free money (safe option), craft magic items (safe option), etc.
But they nerfed it in PF sadly.
And the basis of nearly every fairy tale or story involving wishes...
What was wrong with wish in v3.5? Furthermore, what changed besides the ability to wish for magic items?
What was wrong with wish in v3.5? Furthermore, what changed besides the ability to wish for magic items?
Elementary my Dear Ravingdork, this is 3.5's options (safe options, meaning DM is not supposed to twist wish):
A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
•Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
•Duplicate any other spell of 6th level or lower, provided the spell is not of a school prohibited to you.
•Duplicate any wizard or sorcerer spell of 7th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
•Duplicate any other spell of 5th level or lower even if it’s of a prohibited school.
•Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
•Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
•Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.
•Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
•Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish. A wish can never restore the experience point loss from casting a spell or the level or Constitution loss from being raised from the dead.
•Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes, one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from losing an experience level.
•Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
•Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent’s successful save, a foe’s successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend’s failed save, and so on. The reroll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
Note at bottom of wish: When a wish creates or improves a magic item, you must pay twice the normal XP cost for crafting or improving the item, plus an additional 5,000 XP.
So it creates it, not steals.
PF version:
• Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 8th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
• Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 7th level or lower, provided the spell does not belong to one of your opposition schools.
• Duplicate any sorcerer/wizard spell of 7th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.
• Duplicate any non-sorcerer/wizard spell of 6th level or lower, even if it belongs to one of your opposition schools.
• Undo the harmful effects of many other spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.
• Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three wishes for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled. Note: An inherent bonus may not exceed +5 for a single ability score, and inherent bonuses to a particular ability score do not stack, so only the best one applies.
• Remove injuries and afflictions. A single wish can aid one creature per caster level, and all subjects are cured of the same kind of affliction. For example, you could heal all the damage you and your companions have taken, or remove all poison effects from everyone in the party, but not do both with the same wish.
• Revive the dead. A wish can bring a dead creature back to life by duplicating a resurrection spell. A wish can revive a dead creature whose body has been destroyed, but the task takes two wishes: one to recreate the body and another to infuse the body with life again. A wish cannot prevent a character who was brought back to life from gaining a permanent negative level.
• Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
• Undo misfortune. A wish can undo a single recent event. The wish forces a reroll of any roll made within the last round (including your last turn). Reality reshapes itself to accommodate the new result. For example, a wish could undo an opponent's successful save, a foe's successful critical hit (either the attack roll or the critical roll), a friend's failed save, and so on. The re-roll, however, may be as bad as or worse than the original roll. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and Spell Resistance (if any) applies.
3.5 can do 12 things safely.
PF version is limited to 10.
PF removes from safe list:
1) wishing for nonmagical item (even coins) up to 25, 000.
2) Magic items: create or add
In addition, it lowers the highest spell it can cast to 7th (from 8th).
But it did raise highest level prohibited school spell, non-Wizard from 5th to 6th.
The main problem with wish in 3.5 was that it could make magic items and wealth... and if you have a spell as an SLA, it uses no material components.
Thanks. I hadn't noticed the spell level changes.
What was wrong with wish in v3.5? Furthermore, what changed besides the ability to wish for magic items?
It was primarily the ability to wish for money/magic items, and the ability to acquire wishes as a spell-like ability (and there are many methods, not merely efreeti). Our group sat down and decided on what we felt should be done and altered it.
PF wish was also nerfed in that they saddled with with an excessive material component cost. 25,000 gp is a bit insane IMHO. Especially with the nerf. My guess is they did this because it used to take 5,000 XP points (which was chump change by the time you were casting this spell, since much like item creation, if you dropped behind you just gained it all back next session). Since the standard XP to GP in magic item creation was x5, I imagine that's how they got the material component value. The thing is, unless you're accepting that GP practically grow on trees for high level spellcasters (which they do without GMs house-ruling but lots of people kind of give the stink-eye to that sort of thing), it's way more expensive than what it's worth (contrast limited wish which is damn good for what it costs).
It was primarily the ability to...acquire wishes as a spell-like ability.
I don't recall ever seeing that on the list!
I don't recall ever seeing that on the list!It was primarily the ability to...acquire wishes as a spell-like ability.
It wasn't on the list of things you could wish for, but it was present in the game. The easiest method was using outsiders with wish as a SLA (efreeti, certain fiends, etc), which could of course be done either by binding them or cloning them. There was a plethora of other methods, such as being a Chosen of Mystra (chosen of mystra get to select 1 arcane spell of each spell level to cast as a SLA).
When this came up, my group and I sat down and had a nice conversation about it. Since they really were wanting to use wish for things like building a school on a mountain side, and other RP-based things of that nature, we figured out what would and would not be okay for wishing, modified it a little, and went on with the game. Communication is good. :)
These days wish is so underpowered that it's a wonder people still worry about it. I guess it's the reputation it has from past editions. These days it's an overly expensive substitute for having a scroll of X spell on hand. *snickers*
Can't you do many of the same things even now? I mean, wish spam techniques are nothing new.
Can't you do many of the same things even now? I mean, wish spam techniques are nothing new.
Absolutely. My point is that wish spamming isn't what it used to be. It's not game-breaking anymore. It seems expected. It's not even powerful enough to get bent out of shape over when people do stuff like genie-bind to get a wish or three.
Put another way, in 3.x, it was like handing rocket launchers to everyone and telling them to have fun playing rocket tag with each other. In Pathfinder, you're handing them nerf guns. You still got people shooting other people, but no one cares now. :P
Put yet another way, it is akin to someone saying:
"Hey, I found this way to cast about 5+ spells, do this one thing for a few days, and then I get mages private sanctum cast for me for free!"
"So?"
"Well, I'm only level 4 at the time, so that's like, 3 spell levels beyond what I can cast myself!"
"So what? It's just private sanctum..." *yawns*
wishes aren't as big as they used to be. and most spells aren't as broken as they once were. in fact, most of the 3.5. stuff for minmaxing summons and buffs to the height of celestial are no longer standard, unless your DM allows 3.5. stuff. and a lot of the classes are back as archetypes, though i wish that psionics, invocation users, book of nine swords, and tome of magic were more widely accepted.
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So what exactly is the point of this thread?
"Current Magic Item Creation rules: Just too easy for such a large gain."
Crafting is easy. RAW supports this assumption. Dev's have confirmed this was intended to be easy. Everyone agrees that it's easy to do. The only difference is some people are happy with how it is and others think its broken.
Crafting nets you a gain but claiming it large or small is subjective.
Yes, crafting means you get to exceed the normal WBL. That's because taking a crafting feat means you're not taking some other feat and not getting the benefit of that feat. Instead of Brew Potion, the wizard could take Spell Focus and be more dangerous in combat. Instead of taking Craft Wondrous Item, he could take Combat Casting and be less likely to get disrupted in combat. Every feat has an advantage; some are combat advantages, some are versatility advantages. The crafting feats add to your versatility and long-term survival at the cost of not granting you whatever bonus you could have gotten by taking any other feat.There's not really anything else to discuss on this and is a statement of fact more than a discussion. The entire thread has been examples of how it's easy and the only discussion has been the subjectivity on the magnitude of gain.
This has been an ongoing topic for the last 3, soon to be 4, years with the same players saying the same thing in too many of the exact same thread. There's soon to be a new magic item crafting compendium to help define the rules better, but it's already been stated that these rules will merely be elaboration and not changes. The developers do not want to invalidate anything in the CRB rule set for crafting magic items and are happy with the system they've devised.
Don't like the current rules and want them to change? Then don't use them in your home game and create a home brew. There's enough of the community that do like the rules, including the game designers, that ensure this won't be...
Im going to give you a bit of insight so listen carefully.
The designers are not the only ones who come up with materials and rules changes. When eniugh of the public discuss an issue and present those problems then sometimes change can happen. Flurry of Blows was changed and then it was changed back because of the response. If you think the creation rules are fine then im happy for you but you dont get to dictate whether this discussion needs to continue or not. Nobody is forcing your fingers to glide along the keys of your keyboard to respond to this thread.
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Im going to give you a bit of insight so listen carefully.
The designers are not the only ones who come up with materials and rules changes. When eniugh of the public discuss an issue and present those problems then sometimes change can happen. Flurry of Blows was changed and then it was changed back because of the response. If you think the creation rules are fine then im happy for you but you dont get to dictate whether this discussion needs to continue or not. Nobody is forcing your fingers to glide along the keys of your keyboard to respond to this thread.
For all of your passion on this issue, the decision has been made and that book is probably deep into production. From Sean K. Reynold's post, its not going to be changed in spite of any fuss that's made. I don't personally have a horse in this race, it could be changed from what it is now, all I care about is that there are rules for it.
Perhaps one way the Devs thought to balance the system was through Price. The obtainability of items through crafting is extremely restricted by the cost. I can't think of any way that a level 5 character could craft a Ring of Wishes for himself, he simply doesn't have the resources even if he has the technical knowledge to pull it off via Master Crafter.
For those who say he shouldn't be able to do it at that early of a level, the great thing is that the Item Creation Feats give crafting a very Tolkienian flavor. The non-mages of the world were masters at crafting powerful magical items. It was a separate sort of magic which pulled its power from the resources being forged, rather than from the crafter himself. Though there was also something inherently mystical within the Mastercrafter's ability to forge. Since there's no Fluff built into the ICFs, a little creativity should go a long way in justifying the feat's existence.
As for too easy, complicating only serves to discourage players from even bothering; except for that one guy who loves to crunch numbers, and he will gain a clear advantage over his fellow players by virtue of humping over that steep learning curve. If your real goal is simply to eliminate player-crafting, best to do it directly by taking away the options for everyone, other wise its a weird sort of passive-aggressive, round-about, way of achieving nothing at all.
Do your players know that you don't want them to craft?
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It "helped" nothing, it was a lame mechanic that's missed by no-one. Seriously, more people have been throwing fits over Barbarians not being any more illiterate in Pathfinder than they were throwing over XP costs removed for crafting.Gorbacz is right. And XP costs didn't do anything to curb power gamers. In fact, it was an example of how the knowledge of the system rewarded system mastery. XP costs seemed like a deterrent for those who didn't understand it. Meanwhile, those of us who understood how the XP system worked knew that we could get power from magic items right now and get all the XP refunded to use in leaps and bounds later. There are cases where item crafters ended up ahead of the non-crafters because of this.
The reason is simple. You got more XP for things if you were a lower level, and less XP for things if you were a higher level. Here's an example of how this worked.
I'm a 7th level wizard. My party is 8th level. I'm 1 level behind because I've been crafting magic items like it was my god given duty. However, the power these magic items grant me means I'm not particularly concerned (because if I've made enough magic items to actually fall a whole level behind, I must be freaking blinged).
So now we go on our adventure. Our APL = 8. We encounter 14 APL-1 encounters (7) and 6 APL encounters (8). Our XP spread looks like this.
...CR7 CR7 CR7 CR7 CR7 CR7 CR7 CR7 CR7 CR7 CR7 CR7 CR7 CR7 CR8 CR8 CR8 CR8 CR8 CR8 CR8 CR8 TOTAL TO AWARD
L7 2100 2100 2100 2100 2100 2100 2100 2100 2100 2100 2100 2100 2100 2100 3150 3150 3150 3150 3150 3150 3150 3150 54600 13650 Exp
L8 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 2400 2400 2400 2400 2400 2400 2400 2400 41600 10400 Exp
L8 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 2400 2400 2400 2400 2400 2400 2400 2400 41600 10400 Exp
L8 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 1600 2400 2400 2400 2400 2400 2400 2400 2400 41600
What is this APL? It's EL (Encounter Level) and then you have ECL (Effective Character Level).
We need to break this down so here we go.
All CR's account for a four member party. So a CR 5 for example accounts for 4 5th level party members. Now we will use your example of a 7th level PC and 3 level 8 PCs. 2 levels higher than your party's EL is usually the limit, you are really pushing it when it's 3 or 4. We will use 2 above as an example. We will use an overall CR 10 encounter for your level 8 party with the one 7th level PC. I will throw 2 CR 5 monsters at the party and see what happens. Let's say they win the encounter so let's hand out some XP. First we look at the chart in the DMG. 1600 is the total for two CR 5 monsters being beaten by an 8th level party. 2050 if beaten by a 7th level party. Now we divide it up: 1600 / 4 = 400 while 2050 / 4 = 512. So the 7th level guy earns 112 more than the 8th level party which is nothing in the long run.
You won't be fighting monsters with CRs of 10 or more and hope to survive unless you are breaking the system or the DM just doesn't know what he's doing. At low levels your XP gain difference is nothing and when you get to higher levels it's still nothing because while it may seem like a lot, the XP total to get to the next level is a lot higher.
Let's use a CR 14 as an example for an 8th level party and a 7th level party.
Let's say for arguments sake that you somehow live through that encounter. Your 7th level PC will get 25,200 / 4 = 6300 while your 8th level party will get 19,200 / 4 = 4800 which is 1500 XP gain for the 7th level PC. This is good but it all depends how much XP you have total and how much they have. They could be close to 9th while you are just getting past 7th. If you go back too many levels then there are CRs that you gain nothing from because it's listed as too high a CR for you to handle.
That's how it works.
Crafting and especially WBL rules are horrible, and given some of the posts by developers I've seen, I don't expect PF Revised or 2E to be any better.
Maybe use the WBL for NPCs instead? It's enough to get a decent item or two, but not enough to be decked out head to toe.
Though I think the general theme of Pathfinder is that your Character is Awesome. Every way, all of the time (not always the case, but its clearly their intent). The high WBL makes sense under that Game Theory. For the game to make sense in its entirety, CRs should factor in that wealth of gear. Its all relative, anyway. Anyone know if, say, a CR 15 encounter challenges APL 15 as Paizo claims it will?
What is this APL? It's EL (Encounter Level) and then you have ECL (Effective Character Level).
APL is the appropriate term, and Ashiel used it in the correct context.
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Im going to give you a bit of insight so listen carefully.
The designers are not the only ones who come up with materials and rules changes. When eniugh of the public discuss an issue and present those problems then sometimes change can happen. Flurry of Blows was changed and then it was changed back because of the response. If you think the creation rules are fine then im happy for you but you dont get to dictate whether this discussion needs to continue or not. Nobody is forcing your fingers to glide along the keys of your keyboard to respond to this thread.
For all of your passion on this issue, the decision has been made and that book is probably deep into production. From Sean K. Reynold's post, its not going to be changed in spite of any fuss that's made. I don't personally have a horse in this race, it could be changed from what it is now, all I care about is that there are rules for it.
Perhaps one way the Devs thought to balance the system was through Price. The obtainability of items through crafting is extremely restricted by the cost. I can't think of any way that a level 5 character could craft a Ring of Wishes for himself, he simply doesn't have the resources even if he has the technical knowledge to pull it off via Master Crafter.
For those who say he shouldn't be able to do it at that early of a level, the great thing is that the Item Creation Feats give crafting a very Tolkienian flavor. The non-mages of the world were masters at crafting powerful magical items. It was a separate sort of magic which pulled its power from the resources being forged, rather than from the crafter himself. Though there was also something inherently mystical within the Mastercrafter's ability to forge. Since there's no Fluff built into the ICFs, a little creativity should go a long way in justifying the feat's existence.
As for too easy, complicating only serves to discourage players from even bothering; except for that one guy who loves to crunch numbers, and he will...
When you get higher in level there are ways of actually gaining gold without needing it from the DM so gold restriction doesn't work when you get to a certain point. Also, you can gain money from your own party by charging them more than the 50% that it costs your to create the item.
This is not about me not wanting my PC's to craft, it's about making crafting extremely difficult and costly in more ways than one. When my player's create an item I want it to become a legend in it's own right with the extremely short list of magic items that are already out in the world. I don't want my player's to end up creating more magic items in 5 years game time than it took the world and it's history many millenia to create the ones that are already out there. Also, there are other adventurers and heroes out there and have been around for a long time and if we go by the current rules then my world would be so full of magic items that everyone would have a vorpal blade in the corner by the door to fight off a burglar.