Stat Enhancing Skills and the Skill System

[Uthreth Baelcoressitas]

In Pathfinder, as you level up your stats naturally increase. Base Attack Bonus (how well you hit things), Saving Throws (chance to avoid magical effects), Hit Points, etc, are all things that increase. With the skill system described for PFO, I wonder how those increases will be determined. If each class track has stat increases then people will just get the first level in every class because skills take longer and longer to get the higher up you go. Taking level 1 in every class track might take as long as getting level 3-4 in just one class track, judging from my experience with EVE and DUST which both use a similar skill system.

One possible solution is to have certain certificates lock out others. For example, if you gain the first level achievement for Fighter, which gives you 8 hp, +1 BAB, and some saves, you're blocked from then getting those benefits from other level 1 achievements. The benefit of this option is that while you can still gain the achievements of other classes and the associated skills and abilities, you only get the stat increases once. The power curve will be maintained and staying with one class will be encouraged but multiclassing will not inhibit you overly much because of the difference in speed of training different levels (a level 2 certificate might take the same amount of time as training for 3 level 1 certificates). A potential downside is that each class develops stats at different rates so if you take 20 levels of Wizard then your hit points will be significantly lower than someone who takes 20 levels of Fighter. So when you switch and you have 20 Wizard, 20 Fighter and your friend has 20 Fighter, 20 Wizard then you'll have much lower health than him and he will have much lower Will save, for example. Besides that, some classes like Monk and Paladin get ridiculous stat increases as part of balancing out the rest of their class, so it makes the most sense to go with them over any other class for your first 20 levels due to being locked out of other stat increases.

Another possible solution is to standardize the stat increases, and have them happen the first time each level is achieved. This would maintain the benefit of the first option while mitigating the potential problems stated above. The downside, of course, is that class identity is sacrificed a little bit. Wizards will have the same health as Fighters of the same level, and Fighters will be able to save against mind affecting abilities as a Wizard of the same level without taking spells and abilities into account.

The final option I can see is to have each level achievement of each class track add stat increases as normal in Pathfinder. Have those stat increases scale, though, to how long each achievement takes if directly taken. For example, a level 3 Wizard achievement might take 2 months after achieving level 2. In the same amount of time, you could get level 1 and 2 of Fighter and 1 of both Sorcerer and Druid. So, make the level 3 Wizard achievement balanced in terms of total stat increase with the total sum of the other achievements. I think this option is the best option in that it is balanced in terms of time and does not favor either multiclassing or taking the same class straight. Class identity is preserved, because that level 3 Wizard achievement might add 8 health, 4 Will, +0 BAB whereas the others together might add 10 health, 1 Will, +2 BAB. Clearly, if you want to multiclass your stats will be more evened out whereas going with the same class will maximize the stats that help that class the most. In the scenario where you've taken 20 Wizard and then 20 Fighter and your friend has taken 20 Fighter and then 20 Wizard, both of you will have nearly identical stats because it won't matter when you take what. The downside to this option is that it requires more balancing in the design, and time taken to train each achievement must be taken into account during that design process.

[Being]

Opening up the class sytem could get complicated really fast. Good thinking I hadn't even considered much of what you are addressing, and I really should have thought of it sooner.

But thank you. This would change much. If I don't specify what class I will be the system has no way to differentiate the hitpoints I get that depend on class choice, at least until I first choose a skill.

[Soldack Keldonson]

The higher level skills that take longer to train to are going to be way more amazing then the "level 1" skills of different branches. Your analogy is thinking of this game wrong. It is not a conversion of the pen and paper game to a MMO. This is going to be an next-generation MMO, with the pathfinder setting and lore, that will let you decide how to have fun. There won't be any rails taking you around the amusement park. You want to be creative in how you mix and match your abilities? DO IT!!! Don't expect to swing the sword as well as character devoting him self to swinging a sword. A better example is a customizable card game where you decide how you want your deck to be built. You can put a lot of different low cost colors in your deck. That can be fun. But don't expect your deck to beat the guy that devoted his deck to one color. And that guy shouldn't expect his one color deck to be better than the true "artist" who found some unique and deep synergy with just the right mix of creative choices. Plus there will be alot more to do int he sandbox then just combat. SKills for crafting, harvesting, trading, building and managing guilds and cities....rogues....did I mention real sneaky ROGUES???

[Uthreth Baelcoressitas]

@Soldack I'm not sure I followed half of what you said. It was stated that a max "level" character will be around 5 times as stong as a new character. To me, increasing stats like hit points is part of that. They shouldn't be increased that much, and the power curve should be small like the devs have said all along. But the fact is they have to increase at some point, otherwise you'll have day 1 characters 1-shotting 5 year old characters. The system outlined in the OP is purely on how to handle those small stat increases in such a way that balance is maintained along with "class" identity, and at the same time keeping either multiclassing or sticking with the same class progression from being the obvious min/max choice.

[Kade Starfire]

I see what you are saying Uthreth. My suggestion would be diminishing returns. Set up skills and the like in groups and say as a fighter you are leveling up craft weapons and intimidate, you would be able to do so at a much higher rate than say spell craft. Its the old "cross class" skill concept from forever ago. As for stats, I think it really should be level based. If you have 4 Levels Wizard, that should equate to the same bonuses from that class regardless of other classes. Like Soldack said, mix spell casting and sword play is fine, just don't expect to go toe-to-toe with a true wizard or fighter. Multiclassing has always been a double edged sword in the pen-and-paper world.

[Uthreth Baelcoressitas]

@Kade Diminishing returns on skill merit badges doesn't have anything to do with this conversation, but besides that I agree with what you said. There are other threads that go over that stuff, though.

The second part of what you said is basically agreeing with the third section of the OP, quoted below:

Quote:

The final option I can see is to have each level achievement of each class track add stat increases as normal in Pathfinder. Have those stat increases scale, though, to how long each achievement takes if directly taken. For example, a level 3 Wizard achievement might take 2 months after achieving level 2. In the same amount of time, you could get level 1 and 2 of Fighter and 1 of both Sorcerer and Druid. So, make the level 3 Wizard achievement balanced in terms of total stat increase with the total sum of the other achievements. I think this option is the best option in that it is balanced in terms of time and does not favor either multiclassing or taking the same class straight. Class identity is preserved, because that level 3 Wizard achievement might add 8 health, 4 Will, +0 BAB whereas the others together might add 10 health, 1 Will, +2 BAB. Clearly, if you want to multiclass your stats will be more evened out whereas going with the same class will maximize the stats that help that class the most. In the scenario where you've taken 20 Wizard and then 20 Fighter and your friend has taken 20 Fighter and then 20 Wizard, both of you will have nearly identical stats because it won't matter when you take what. The downside to this option is that it requires more balancing in the design, and time taken to train each achievement must be taken into account during that design process.

[DeciusBrutus]

There's nothing inherently bad about early characters taking down experienced characters in one hit. The Legend of the Five Rings (L5R) tabletop roleplaying game incorporates that concept.

That said, I don't think fragile PCs are the way to go in a D&D derived game- but the difference in fragility can be accounted for in defensive skills and equipment, which reduce the number and severity of the hits you take.